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Frosty
2008-04-27, 01:58 AM
If an enemy has Thicket of Blades stance and has reach, and I charge said enemy using the maneuver War Leader's Charge, do I provoke an AoO from that enemy?

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-27, 01:59 AM
That'd be dependant on the interpretation of Thicket of Blades stance. I always use it in that it only allows you to AoO against tumble, not 'all kinds of movement'.

Frosty
2008-04-27, 02:46 AM
I can see that as a houserule, but currently I can confused about the RAW readings for how the two ToB things interact.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-27, 03:52 AM
Well, charging pass a threatened square would normally provoke AoO. WLC manoeuvre allows you to bypass that. ToB stance however, enables the user to attack any 'movement' through threatened square. Since Thicket of Blades RAW allows one to provoke AoO simply by taking a 5-ft step, which normally does not provoke AoO, I'd say WLC will still incur the chance of AoO. So, in a strict sense of reading, ToB (stance) vs WLC = Thicket of Blades win.

namo
2008-04-27, 05:43 AM
Given their broad wording, you won't have an ironclad RAW answer. I see it as an "Ultimate Blade" vs "Invincible Shield" problem... so I give the edge to the higher-level one, War Leader/Master's Charge.

Frosty
2008-04-27, 11:16 AM
Bah, this is almost as confusing as what Ironheart Surge cures,

JaxGaret
2008-04-27, 11:29 AM
For a long discussion on Thicket of Blades: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1015554

My personal opinion on the RAW of this question is that Thicket of Blades does not make enemies that are Tumbling, Spring Attacking, or WLCing through your threatened area provoke AoOs. It only affects 5' steps and withdraw actions, as it explicitly mentions in the stance's text.

But YMMV.

Frosty
2008-04-27, 11:43 AM
My personal opinion on the RAW of this question is that Thicket of Blades does not make enemies that are Tumbling.

But if so, it'd be pretty worthless as a lockdown stance. Anyone can make the DC 15 tumble check at higher levels. At least the Knight makes it harder forpeople to tumble thru his squares.

GoC
2008-04-27, 12:00 PM
But if so, it'd be pretty worthless as a lockdown stance. Anyone can make the DC 15 tumble check at higher levels. At least the Knight makes it harder forpeople to tumble thru his squares.

Maybe that's because lockdown builds aren't supposed to exist?

Frosty
2008-04-27, 12:16 PM
Maybe that's because lockdown builds aren't supposed to exist?

says who (besides you, obviously)? :smalltongue:

JaxGaret
2008-04-27, 12:33 PM
But if so, it'd be pretty worthless as a lockdown stance. Anyone can make the DC 15 tumble check at higher levels. At least the Knight makes it harder forpeople to tumble thru his squares.

I was just talking about the RAW. You can RAYW in your campaign, of course.

Remember this rule about the Tumble skill:


You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

Also, not everyone can reliably make a DC 15 Tumble check at higher levels, only people with lots of ranks in it will. Plus you can only move one-half movement while Tumbling to avoid AoOs, unless you try for the DC 25 check to Tumble at full speed.

Frosty
2008-04-27, 12:44 PM
I was just talking about the RAW. You can RAYW in your campaign, of course.


By RAW, Thicket of Blades beats Tumble. I just wasn't sure about the charge maneuvers.

And spellcasters can definitely do it reliably at the higher levels. Level 15 spellcaster. Max cross-class ranks in Tumble is 9. Add in a modest +3 dex bonus, and the spellcaster only needs to roll a 3 or better. Spellcasters typically don't wear armor, so they won't have their speed reduced by armor. They also tend to have bags of holding so their carrying limit doesn't matter too much if they're smart about it.

Chronos
2008-04-27, 12:55 PM
The Withdraw action provokes attacks of opportunity anyway, if you move out of a threatened square. It's just that with Withdraw, the square you start in ordinarily doesn't count as threatened. That's all that Thicket of Blades changes with respect to Withdraw.

Meanwhile, the Thicket of Blades stance says that it works for all movement, including a 5-foot-step. This implies that there are situations other than a 5-foot-step where a person would not ordinarily provoke an AoO from moving out of a threatened square, but would if the threatener has Thicket of Blades. The description does not explicitly call out any of the other forms of movement, but it can be inferred that it's meant to at least include Tumble, that being the other common method for avoiding AoO.

For the interaction of Thicket of Blades and War Leader's Charge, I would argue that War Leader's Charge turns charging from something that does ordinarily provoke AoO into something in the same category as Tumble or 5-foot-steps, which ordinarily does not. So Thicket would still win over WLC, in the same way that it wins over Tumble and 5-foot-steps. If you prefer, you can think of it as the two maneuvers canceling each other out, with the result being the same as normal for charges.

Nor is it necessarily relevant that Thicket of Blades is lower level. Death Ward is lower level than Energy Drain, and yet the former completely negates the latter. Thicket of Blades doesn't even completely negate War Leader's Charge, since you still get the extra damage on the charge.

JaxGaret
2008-04-27, 01:53 PM
Meanwhile, the Thicket of Blades stance says that it works for all movement, including a 5-foot-step. This implies that there are situations other than a 5-foot-step where a person would not ordinarily provoke an AoO from moving out of a threatened square, but would if the threatener has Thicket of Blades. The description does not explicitly call out any of the other forms of movement, but it can be inferred that it's meant to at least include Tumble, that being the other common method for avoiding AoO.

For the interaction of Thicket of Blades and War Leader's Charge, I would argue that War Leader's Charge turns charging from something that does ordinarily provoke AoO into something in the same category as Tumble or 5-foot-steps, which ordinarily does not. So Thicket would still win over WLC, in the same way that it wins over Tumble and 5-foot-steps.

When you explain it that way, it makes sense that it ToB would work against WLC, even though the RAW seems to indicate otherwise.