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View Full Version : What's the point of Planar Binding?



Adumbration
2008-04-27, 02:47 AM
Everything else seems all right - but lo'! The summonable gets a will-saving throw, and at high levels when summoning a Pit Fiend the DC just isn't enough! Is there anything I'm missing?

tyckspoon
2008-04-27, 02:50 AM
Efreeti are a 10 HD outsider that can cast Wishes for you. That's the point.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-27, 02:53 AM
Or, of course there's a 6-HD outsider with 26 Cha that can use Change Shape at will.

The Necroswanso
2008-04-27, 03:00 AM
Bribe them. Make them not want to fail the save. That's the point.

Jimp
2008-04-27, 08:19 AM
It's because summoning terrifying outsiders to obliterate all in your path is awesome.
For serious.

Frosty
2008-04-27, 12:22 PM
Or, of course there's a 6-HD outsider with 26 Cha that can use Change Shape at will.

And what would you use that outsider for?

The Faceless
2008-04-27, 12:25 PM
And what would you use that outsider for?

Probably things that aren't suitable for public discussion. At least that's what i'd do.

Frosty
2008-04-27, 12:30 PM
Have it help you do magical research on how to cure planar STDs?

The Faceless
2008-04-27, 01:53 PM
And give you a reason to do that research.

Solo
2008-04-27, 02:05 PM
Have it help you do magical research on how to cure planar STDs?

Solo's Superior Sex Shields

The wearer of this wondrous item is protected from all sexually transmitted diseases, energy-draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects.

Moderate Abjuration, CL7th, Craft Wondrous Item, Deathward ; Price: 1000 gp

Jack_Simth
2008-04-27, 02:21 PM
Everything else seems all right - but lo'! The summonable gets a will-saving throw, and at high levels when summoning a Pit Fiend the DC just isn't enough! Is there anything I'm missing?
What you're missing is that you don't really want the Pit Fiend.

Will save to avoid being called, opposed Charisma check for the bargaining. If you take your time and do it right (calling diagram, dimensional anchor, alignment-appropriate circle) that's all you have to worry about. The Pit Fiend you're grabbing with Greater Planar Binding has a Will save of +21 and a Charisma of 26 - you're unlikely to grab him on both counts, and as he's got Wish as a 1/year SLA, and he's an underworld general, he'll seek revenge, and likely succeed. Plus he's hard to trap in the first place.

That's not the kind of critter you want.

What you want is critters with low Will saves and low Charisma scores, that fit the particular purpose you're confronted with.

Suppose you're in need of a meat shield. A Huge Earth Elemental (16 HD) will do the job quite well - DR 5/- (it's not bothered by swarms of weak critters), 152 HP (it can take a beating), 15 foot reach (AoO's galore, atlthough to take advantage of them, you'll want to go with an Air Elemental, instead), a full attack line of 2 slams +19 melee (2d10+9), it's Earth Mastery will apply to most opponents (+1 attack/damage), and it's Will save is only +7, and it's Charisma is only 11. This one, you've got a great chance of grabbing and convincing to do your work for little to no cost. Additionally, they're Solitary creatures with no native method of planar travel - it's rather unlikely it will be able to seek revenge, and it's rather unlikely it will be able to do anything about you if it does seek revenge. The other elementals are pretty similar, although they tend to have different focuses. Additionally, you can get lesser version with the lower-ranked spells in the same line.

Suppose you're in need of a scout. An Invisible Stalker is naturally invisible, and has decent Move Silently, Listen, and Spot checks. Will save of only +4, Charisma of 11 - you'll get him pretty easily. With eight hit dice, you can even get him with regular Planar Binding. Again - solitary critter, no native ability to switch planes.

Suppose you're in need of an infiltrator. A Succubus can do this very well (Disguise +17/+19, plus Alternate Form), and only has a Will save of +7... but a Charisma score of 26, so negotiations can be tricky.

Suppose you're in need of a Divine caster. A Planetar is very hard to get (Will +15, 22 Charisma) but is worth it if you can (Cleric-17 casting), a Ghaele, however, casts as a Cleric-14, and only has a +10 Will save and 16 charisma (and only 10 hit dice, so can be grabbed with the regular Planar Binding spell) - a much easier target. Downside: Both of these have the ability to cast Plane Shift if they decide to seek revenge, and have the possibility of allies in their organization line. Don't assign them to any tasks outside their nature, and arrange for some form of payment for their services, and you *should* be fine.

If you're using Planar Binding, you're an Arcanist already, and shouldn't need anything in that line.

Collin152
2008-04-27, 07:24 PM
Solo's Superior Sex Shields

The wearer of this wondrous item is protected from all sexually transmitted diseases, energy-draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects.

Moderate Abjuration, CL7th, Craft Wondrous Item, Deathward ; Price: 1000 gp

Does it only work on sexually transmitted energy-draining attacks and deaht effects and such?
Or does that qualifier only apply to the diseases?

senrath
2008-04-27, 07:37 PM
Does it only work on sexually transmitted energy-draining attacks and deaht effects and such?
Or does that qualifier only apply to the diseases?

If it only applies to diseases, isn't that item a bit on the cheap side? Of course, it doesn't specify where you wear it...

Eldariel
2008-04-27, 07:50 PM
Glabrezus are nice midgame. Depending on your character, Pit Fiends are what you want later on. Basically, it gets you another character that tends to be few levels higher than you. That's the point. The spell is broken unless DM heavily enforces the 'gods and generals of whatever plane you're Binding from will get your ass'-rule.

Anyways, there're ways to boost effects for a single spell. Get all sorts of temporary Charisma-bonuses you can find, give it some treasure and so on. And there're retries. Just subvert a PF and win. Making a pet out of the ranks of the mighty generals of the Nine Hells just has flair and style.


Basically, you need to pump the save DC by any means possible (although for level 8 spells, I wouldn't be surprised if you get it to ~31 or so naturally by level 15, which is when you can cast Greater Planar Ally in the first place, which is good enough to get a Pit Fiend in few tries, about 50% for the first one without Spell Focuses and such). Then you're free to debuff the summoned thing while your Magic Circle does the rest. Once it's got low enough Cha, barter. And make the deal extremely precise in wording so the stupid fool doesn't try to seek loopholes (if he does, send him back to Hell, Plane Shift after him and kill him for good for his insolence).

Oh yeah, using Geas/Quest or similar spells is a good way to circumvent the whole opposed Cha check.

EDIT: I forgot, extract their truename outta them through the deal. And use Moment of Prescience on the Charisma-check. Once you know their truename, they're pretty much ****ed so chances are they won't cross you unless they can kill you before you can invoke it. Sort of an insurance policy.

black dragoon
2008-04-27, 07:55 PM
Planar binding also serves to help to explain the reason the evil wizard has a few demons running around.YAY meat shields!!

Jack_Simth
2008-04-27, 08:17 PM
Glabrezus are nice midgame. Depending on your character, Pit Fiends are what you want later on. Basically, it gets you another character that tends to be few levels higher than you. That's the point. The spell is broken unless DM heavily enforces the 'gods and generals of whatever plane you're Binding from will get your ass'-rule.

Anyways, there're ways to boost effects for a single spell. Get all sorts of temporary Charisma-bonuses you can find, give it some treasure and so on. And there're retries. Just subvert a PF and win. Making a pet out of the ranks of the mighty generals of the Nine Hells just has flair and style.


Basically, you need to pump the save DC by any means possible (although for level 8 spells, I wouldn't be surprised if you get it to ~31 or so naturally by level 15, which is when you can cast Greater Planar Ally in the first place, which is good enough to get a Pit Fiend in few tries, about 50% for the first one without Spell Focuses and such). Then you're free to debuff the summoned thing while your Magic Circle does the rest. Once it's got low enough Cha, barter. And make the deal extremely precise in wording so the stupid fool doesn't try to seek loopholes (if he does, send him back to Hell, Plane Shift after him and kill him for good for his insolence).

Oh yeah, using Geas/Quest or similar spells is a good way to circumvent the whole opposed Cha check.
Well, for the Charisma check there's either "be a Sorcerer" or Moment of Prescience. Either one gives you pretty good odds of making the deal. Combined, you're pretty much in the "don't roll a 1" territory with the vast majority of beasties. Get a Circlet of Persuasion, too - only 4,500 gp, but +3 Competence to Charisma-based checks will help a mite.

Oh - and you don't need to send them back in order to kill them for real - unlike with Summoned critters, Called critters are actually there - if they die, they stay dead.

Talya
2008-04-27, 08:20 PM
First of all. Planar Binding can't summon a Pit Fiend. The greater version can, but your odds are low. The spell is designed more for the purpose of calling three 6 HD creatures than a single 18 HD creature. That said, if you're a sorcerer with greater spell focus and maxed out charisma, you could easily have a DC of 32 by the time you can cast the spell. A Pit Fiend has a 50% chance of failing that roll. Which is rather broken, for a level 8 spell, if you ask me.

Secondly, a Pit Fiend is a CR20 encounter. If you wish to call one and bribe it to do your will, you should be using a level 9 spell. Fortunately, there is one made for the job! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)

Eldariel
2008-04-27, 08:30 PM
All true about boosting Charisma. Malconvoker Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918792) has an excellent section on winning the opposed Charisma-check on any level against anything as a 10 Cha Wizards.

As far as the saving throw goes, just simple Spell Focus and Greater give you ~60% chance of success. Then you can start trying. Fatespinner 4 would be very good, for example (although hard to fit to such a build; Malconvoker tends to be better). I'm not thinking straight right now, but I know there're many ways to improve your DCs for one specific spell, both with spells and items.


Oh - and you don't need to send them back in order to kill them for real - unlike with Summoned critters, Called critters are actually there - if they die, they stay dead.

As far as I know, outsiders tend to have the annoying habit of not dying until killed on their homeplane; even if the real one is slain on the material plane, the energy simply returns and reforms on the homeplane. Which part have I missed? Does that only apply to summoned creatures?

Jack_Simth
2008-04-27, 08:45 PM
As far as I know, outsiders tend to have the annoying habit of not dying until killed on their homeplane; even if the real one is slain on the material plane, the energy simply returns and reforms on the homeplane. Which part have I missed? Does that only apply to summoned creatures?

The online SRD to the rescue:

Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.(Underline added, bold original)

tyckspoon
2008-04-27, 08:49 PM
As far as I know, outsiders tend to have the annoying habit of not dying until killed on their homeplane; even if the real one is slain on the material plane, the energy simply returns and reforms on the homeplane. Which part have I missed? Does that only apply to summoned creatures?

Just old fluff, I think. Outsiders now face the risk of real death anywhere they go just like everybody else.. although they might have reprinted the banished to home plane thing in one of the Fiend Folios or Codexes.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-27, 10:45 PM
Regardless, even if they were to return to Hell upon death, odds are they'd be severely weakened. Devils would be demoted for shaming the Infernal Army with their weakness, and demons would be eaten by all the other demons who think, Hey, turns out he's not so tough to kill, after all!

Townopolis
2008-04-28, 12:24 AM
Ok, now when I make a malconvoker, he's going to do his best to see that his summons die in the course of combat. If the baddies die before the demon, get the party to pounce on it.

Bwahahaha!