Advice for a Level 8 Swordsage.

[Charity]

Hi guys,
Ok heres the gen, we are soon to wrap up our campaign... just 50 odd days left. Well my favourite player (my wife, I don't really play favourites) recently died a horrible crocodiley death... oops, she would like to play a swordsage but has not used the ToB before.

I would prefer her to not absolutely overshadow all the other melee characters so nothing too cheedary please.

Just ToB, PHB 1 and 2 available.
I'm not looking for complete builds, (though go nuts if you just can't help yourselves) just pointers for interesting/cool/useful manouvers and feats for a short campaign no long term considerations need be taken.

Ta in advance.

[Behold_the_Void]

Setting Sun-focused Counter Swordsages are pretty cool. Really though it depends on the style she's looking for.

[sonofzeal]

It's really hard to go wrong with ToB, whatever you choose you'll be effective. Just let her have fun and choose ones with nice names if she likes, although for that I'd recommend choosing two or three disciplines to focus on and ignore the rest. Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw are always fun, if not synergistic.

[Reel On, Love]

There's two basic kinds of Swordsages: STR-based and DEX-based. There's some variation, but fundamentally, the former have more free feats and take a lot of Strikes, whereas the latter take the Shadow Blade feat (and therefore pretty much always remain in Shadow Hand stances), Two-Weapon Fighting, and lots of boosts and counters (with select Strikes like Wolf Fang Strike and Pouncing Charge).

Which kind would she be more interested in? At level 8, TWF has lost its low-level advantage and not gained its high-level one (which hits at 10--Dancing Mongoose + Pouncing Charge), so the STR one should work fine, but a dex-based one could just take Shadow Blade and no TWF, maybe use stealth and go Shadow Hand heavy.

What're the stats like? Rolled? Point-buy?

[Charity]

Wow sorry it took so long to get back to this; I don't think she has a set style in mind Reel though I would say more likely Str based.

I use rolled stats, in this case - [12,13,13,13,14,17] + 2 upgrades for level 8
Which look pretty strong (if a bit samey), oh PHB races only in case you were wondering

Oh, any essential magic equipment couldn't hurt either.

ta

[Reel On, Love]

Wow sorry it took so long to get back to this; I don't think she has a set style in mind Reel though I would say more likely Str based.

I use rolled stats, in this case - [12,13,13,13,14,17] + 2 upgrades for level 8
Which look pretty strong (if a bit samey), oh PHB races only in case you were wondering

Oh, any essential magic equipment couldn't hurt either.

ta

Those stats aren't very good for a Swordsage--there's that single high stat. Making an STR-based Swordsage would be tough.

Well, here's an option for a dexy character:

Middle-aged (-1 Physical Stats, +1 mental) Wild Elf (+2 DEX, -2 INT, instead of normal elf +2 DEX/-2 CON).

So you have: STR 13, DEX 17, CON 13, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 12
This becomes: STR 12, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 15, CHA 13. +2 DEX from levels.

Feats:
1: Shadow Blade
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Adaptive Style

Unfortunately, an elf can't fit in Two-Weapon Fighting. You could go with a human and have final stats of STR 12, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 15, CHA 13 and fit it in. However, it's not really necessary: at level 8, you can carry two weapons to use with Wolf Fang Strike, and rely on your maneuvers the rest of the time.
Instead of carrying two weapons, you could also use the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation--wear armor anyway; a mithral chain shirt has no Armor Check Penalty, so there's absolutely no penalty for wearing it untrained.

Stances: Island of Blades, Child of Shadow, Assassin's Stance (alternatively, Dance of the Spider if Spider Climb would be particularily useful or Sneak Attack particularily useless).
Take Discipline Focus(weapon focus) for Shadow Hand, and Discipline Focus(insightful strike) for Tiger Claw.


The build can be modified for extra feats. Since you won't hit level 9, you're not losing much by going Fighter 2/Swordsage 6--in fact, that's my new recommendation. You still keep 4th-level maneuvers. Fighter 2/Swordsage 4/Bloodclaw Master 2 is also an option, although it means you have to take a Tiger Claw 4th level maneuver instead of any (and don't get to trade a lower-level one up for another 4th-level maneuver). On the upside, you lose TWF penalties, and get full STR to each hand (which is a meager +1 more to the first hand and +2 more to the off hand even *with* shifting, unless she gets a Strength-booster). Overall I'd say BCM isn't worth it.


So, Middle-Aged Wood Elf Swordsage 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage +5:

Swordsage 1: Shadow Blade
--Maneuvers: Wolf Fang Strike, Burning Blade, Shadow Blade Technique, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Wind Stride (prereqs); Stance: Child of Shadow
Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse
Fighter 2: Two-Weapon Fighting, Adaptive Style
Swordsage 2
--Maneuver: Mountain Hammer. Stance: Island of Blades.
Swordsage 3
--Maneuver: Shadow Jaunt
Swordsage 4: Extra Readied Maneuver
--Maneuvers: Mind Over Body; swap out Shadow Blade Technique for Insightful Strike
Swordsage 5
--Maneuver: this depends. If you face larger foes on a regular basis, Soaring Raptor Strike is the way to go. Otherwise, take Fan the Flames or Shadow Garotte, depending on how common fire resistance is. Stance: Assassin's Stance (or Dance of the Spider)
Swordsage 6
--Maneuvers: Searing Blade; swap out Counter Charge for... well, there aren't any great options. Take your pick. Bounding Assault, Death from Above (you get the Insightful Strike bonus damage).

27,000 gp at level 8, so equipment:
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt: 5,100 gp
-Gloves of Dexterity +2: 4,000 gp
-Periapt of Wisdom +2: 4,000 gp
-Ring of Protection +1: 2,000 gp
-Cloak of Resistance +1: 1,000 gp
-+1 Shadow Hand (see back of ToB) Shortsword (or any other one-handed finesseable Shadow Hand weapon she likes): 8,300 gp
-+1 Shortsword (or any other light weapon she likes): 2,300 gp--if you took the unarmed strike option, this cash is freed up (although you may want a +1 Gauntlet instead, just so it doesn't lose the +1 AB/damage and encounter DR/magic). TWF with the +1 Shadow Hand weapon in the main hand, and the off-hand weapon or unarmed strike as the off-hand.

That should put her AB at +14/+9 main hand, +11 off hand, when full-round attacking, and +16 when single-attacking, for 1d6+8 (7 with the off hand) + maneuver damage (and +3 on Tiger Claw strikes) and her AC at 26 (with 20% concealment whenever she moves with Child of Shadow). Saves should be +7/+12/+9, with Mind Over Body and Moment of Perfect Mind as an option.

If there's some other stuff she wants, dumping the Shadow Hand enhancement frees up 6,000 gp (but it's a loss of +3 to hit with the main hand).

Maneuvers Readied (7, with Extra Readied): Wolf Fang Strike, Searing Blade,
Mind over Body, Soaring Raptor/Flames/Garotte (whichever you took), Death from Above/Bounding Assault (whichever you took), Burning Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind.

Out of combat, swap Shadow Jaunt in for utility purposes whenever you need it and swap it out after, with Adaptive Style. Swap Mountain Hammer in whenever you need to break a door down, smash through a wall (ignore hardness!), etc.

Max out Jump, Tumble, Concentration (and get MW tools for all three), plus whatever seems cool (I'd take Sense Motive, Listen, Hide, Move Silently; swap Sense Motive for Intimidate if she wants ot be intimidating).


In combat, standard tactics are generally to keep Child of Shadow up all the time; first round, move in (or around), triggering Child of Shadow, and attack with Soaring Raptor or Fan the Flames or whatsit, a heavy-hitter; swap into Assassin's Stance as a swift action. Next round, tumble around to trigger Child of Shadow and get a flank with an ally, and use Searing Blade + Wolf Fang Strike, attacking at +14/+11 for 1d6+10 (9 offhand) normal, 2d6 sneak attack, and 2d6+7 fire damage, an average of 34 points of damage per hit (with that particular combo). After that, use single Strikes or full-round TWF (with the Burning Blade boost, once) until you run out, then keep TWFing (or use Adaptive Style to regain maneuvers if it seems like a better option).



A middle-aged wood elf should be interesting to play. I'd probably take it in a no-nonsense "lioness and her cubs" approach to the party, but there's tons of ways to play it.

[Eldariel]

Reel: You left out one important variety of Swordsages - the Wisdom-based kind. While they really appreciate Intuitive Attack which isn't available here (a decent secondary ability makes up for that), they have the advantage over other Swordsages that they get a good value out of all the Wisdom-based save maneuvers. Since Swordsages get Wis to AC, it's going to do Dex's job in that regard and Insightful Strike allows you to use it for damage soon enough, leaving the hitting part (for which Intuitive Attack would of course be godsent).


As far as the suggested build goes, I'd say Extra Readied Maneuver is unnecessary. Maybe pick up a Warblade level and work towards Stormguard Warrior? It's a rather efficient feat for Two-Weapon Fighters and is available right in ToB.

[Reel On, Love]

Reel: You left out one important variety of Swordsages - the Wisdom-based kind. While they really appreciate Intuitive Attack which isn't available here (a decent secondary ability makes up for that), they have the advantage over other Swordsages that they get a good value out of all the Wisdom-based save maneuvers. Since Swordsages get Wis to AC, it's going to do Dex's job in that regard and Insightful Strike allows you to use it for damage soon enough, leaving the hitting part (for which Intuitive Attack would of course be godsent).
They get an okay DC, but their WIS still won't be as high as, say, a wizard's INT (they do need more other stats)... and the problem is, the Wisdom-based save manevuers just aren't that good, by and large. It's mostly fort-saves, and the effects are just... lame, compared to spells.



As far as the suggested build goes, I'd say Extra Readied Maneuver is unnecessary. Maybe pick up a Warblade level and work towards Stormguard Warrior? It's a rather efficient feat for Two-Weapon Fighters and is available right in ToB.
You could take Fighter 1/Warblade 1 instead of Fighter 2, yes. I would, myself. But multiclassing martial adepts is complicated, Stormguard Warrior is complicated (and crappy if you do it wrong, but really overpowered if you do it right), and she's new to ToB. This should be complex enough.

Extra Readied Maneuver is very nice. It basically means either another round before you have to refresh, or another defense (like Moment of Perfect Mind and Mind over Body).

[Eldariel]

A Wis-focused SS can really afford to go Wis SAD as you get attack bonus, damage, AC and DCs from Wis, which is basically everything except Initiative and Skills (which everyone else gets from other stats too). It's true though that most of the maneuvers aren't quite as impressive as comparative spells.

I guess the benefit is that you get weapon damage + Wis as an added effect. Combining that to something like 4 points of Con damage from Bloodletting Strike can be quite powerful. And of course, attacks that take away actions are always valuable. Also, the fact that all of them tend to have partial effects with succesful saves makes them not-wasted generally. Of course, what you say about 'em mostly being Fortitude-saves is true and that is annoying, but it can really do a number on low Fort-types. Against high Fort-types, you still have the whole array of non-save Maneuvers available.

But yea, I consider it a viable alternative to Str- and Dex-based builds simply because Wis-based builds have a wider variety of maneuvers to choose from (although of course, many schools offer Dex- and Str-based saving throws too, which are beyond Wis-based builds' reach). It may not be quite as powerful due to the nature of the maneuvers, but for example Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation just feels awesome to use even though it pales in comparison to level 9 (or 8, for that matter) spells.


I agree, Extra Readied Maneuver is a strong feat, I'm just thinking if there isn't anything more useful to take at this point. I personally find Stormguard Warrior quite intuitive hence the suggestion (I did read the OP), but of course, that's ultimately up to the player.

[Charity]

Would it not be reasonable to have a
Str 18, wis 14, dex 14 for the strength based SS?
a couple of stat boosters and you are at +5,+3,+3...
You'd lose a bit of AC but gain a couple of feats or am I missing something vital?

[Saph]

Bear in mind that Swordsages are like Druids in that they can get very lethal, very easily.

I had one Swordsage NPC following the PCs around when I was DMing a campaign. I'd given her a Dex-based Pounce build in my spare time, expecting her to be a support character, but despite being a level behind the party, she could do as much damage in one round as the rest of the party put together. I had to start leaving her out of the fights before the PCs figured out what was happening.

- Saph