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nargbop
2008-04-27, 07:29 PM
I just realized something terrifically awesome. Epic spells are based off of Spellcraft checks. A great deal of effort in designing epic spells is lowering Spellcraft DCs to manageable levels, or putting great amounts of preparation into improving your Spellcraft bonus. Factotums are GREAT at skill checks.
One of the signature powers of factotum, Knowledge Inspiration, allows you to add your Factotum level to a skill check, once per day. That's a +24 bonus to your check, at the lowest level epic magic is available.
This requires some houseruling, as I don't think that WotC has released an official epic progression for Factotum. Following the progression in Dungeonscape, however, 8th level spells are available at 21st level, and 9th level spells are available at 24th level. The epic feats should be available at the same rate as the rogue.
21 Factotum Epic Feat - Epic Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
22 Factotum
23 Factotum
24 Factotum Epic Feat - Epic Spellcasting Epic Feat - one more

The 24th level factotum has 27 ranks in Spellcraft, an INT bonus of at least 19 (+4), Skill Focus (+3), Epic Skill Focus (+10), and the Factotum bonus (+24). Totalling 68. This caster can reliably hit DCs of 58, and sometimes hit 98. Whee - Greater Ruin at level 24!

Reel On, Love
2008-04-27, 07:32 PM
Epic Spellcasting--

Stop right there.

senrath
2008-04-27, 07:35 PM
I just realized something terrifically awesome. Epic spells are based off of Spellcraft checks. A great deal of effort in designing epic spells is lowering Spellcraft DCs to manageable levels, or putting great amounts of preparation into improving your Spellcraft bonus. Factotums are GREAT at skill checks.
One of the signature powers of factotum, Knowledge Inspiration, allows you to add your Factotum level to a skill check, once per day. That's a +24 bonus to your check, at the lowest level epic magic is available.
This requires some houseruling, as I don't think that WotC has released an official epic progression for Factotum. Following the progression in Dungeonscape, however, 8th level spells are available at 21st level, and 9th level spells are available at 24th level. The epic feats should be available at the same rate as the rogue.
21 Factotum Epic Feat - Epic Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
22 Factotum
23 Factotum
24 Factotum Epic Feat - Epic Spellcasting Epic Feat - one more

The 24th level factotum has 27 ranks in Spellcraft, an INT bonus of at least 19 (+4), Skill Focus (+3), Epic Skill Focus (+10), and the Factotum bonus (+24). Totalling 68. This caster can reliably hit DCs of 58, and sometimes hit 98. Whee - Greater Ruin at level 24!

Don't forget that you can Take 10 when casting Epic Level spells.

dman11235
2008-04-27, 07:44 PM
You realize that the Factotum never gains the ability to cast 9th level spells, right? It is not a progression based on class level, it's a level that you gain at a certain class level. And there is no epic factotum progression in the book.

senrath
2008-04-27, 07:48 PM
You realize that the Factotum never gains the ability to cast 9th level spells, right? It is not a progression based on class level, it's a level that you gain at a certain class level. And there is no epic factotum progression in the book.

Ooo, didn't know that. That means no epic spellcasting for them.

sonofzeal
2008-04-27, 08:42 PM
You realize that the Factotum never gains the ability to cast 9th level spells, right? It is not a progression based on class level, it's a level that you gain at a certain class level. And there is no epic factotum progression in the book.
I don't think that's a major issue. It's clearly regular and easy to extrapolate, so it shouldn't be a problem on that front. The bigger problem is they aren't actually spells, they're SLAs, so you don't satisfy the "can cast 9th level spells" requirement.

Anyr
2008-04-27, 08:43 PM
Ooo, didn't know that. That means no epic spellcasting for them.

It's worse than that; Factotums don't even cast spells in the first place. Their 'spells' are actually spell-like abilities, which don't count for spellcasting prerequisites.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-27, 08:46 PM
It's worse than that; Factotums don't even cast spells in the first place. Their 'spells' are actually spell-like abilities, which don't count for spellcasting prerequisites.

Actually, they prepare spells. They then cast them as spell-like abilities.

Since the "cast spells of Xth level" class feature isn't something that can repeat infinitely, it can't be part of an epic progression. Epic Factotum wouldn't get the ability to prepare 8th/9th level spells.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-27, 09:31 PM
Since the "cast spells of Xth level" class feature isn't something that can repeat infinitely, it can't be part of an epic progression. Epic Factotum wouldn't get the ability to prepare 8th/9th level spells.

This - paladins and rangers don't get spells above 4th level either.

Also, yeah, not cast spells but SLAs, etc.

So no Epic Spellcasting for factotums.

Stycotl
2008-04-27, 09:48 PM
i don't know anything about factotum, as it never interested me enough to look at it much. but rangers and paladins can benefit from improved spell capacity, which will eventually give them 9th level spell slots (though dm has to make up their spell lists for higher-than-normal levels), and access to epic spellcasting.

dman11235
2008-04-27, 10:12 PM
Factotums don't cast spells, therefore they can't benefit from the feat.

On a side note, you realize that paladins and rangers won't get new spell lists for the higher spells, right? The higher spell slots are only useful for MM feats.

Stycotl
2008-04-27, 10:24 PM
i just gave my players a spell list for the level that they took the slot in.

dman11235
2008-04-27, 10:27 PM
They don't get one.

Stycotl
2008-04-28, 01:54 AM
that's great. what i'm telling you is that i give them one. if you want to try to tell all dm's everywhere that their houserules are wrong, and start a legal suite out of this, be my guest. until then, i'm giving them spell lists when they take the feat.

EDIT: either way, the point was that the feat, taken enough times, grants them 9th level spells, and therefore access to epic spellcasting. i already mentioned that i am unaware as to the mechanics of factotum; it was merely an exploration of possibility. if some dm really wants to give his factotum players epic spells, more power to him. there are certainly ways to adapt the system.

dman11235
2008-04-28, 09:10 AM
I wasn't telling you to not do it, I'm merely strongly suggesting it. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh, but I was tired and not making sense all around. Anyway, the spell lists were balanced for only advancement from 1-20, and even include some spells that are higher level than 4 on other lists. It's just not a good idea, because at this rate they'll get Miracle as a level 6 spell. But it is your game and if you want to go ahead. I was trying to show you that it was a houserule and not RAW that they gain a new spell list. I do have one question: what about classes with 9th level spells, do they get new spell lists?

Stycotl
2008-04-28, 10:52 PM
nope. after 9th level spells come epic level spells.

i realize that spell lists were fudged in order to give pallies and rangers some better spell options for their level. bards too, can't forget them. but really the same thing happens in cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard lists as well, though to a lesser extent.

i balance further spell list progression against the full-casting classes, not against the accelerated lists of the half-casters. so, while a ranger progression might mean that he would get miracle by 6th level (assuming that he was even going to get a spell like that at all), by balancing it against the cleric and druid list, he still only gets it with 9th level spells.

there are exceptions, but that is the rule.

this part is the key to my logic: the whole point was to allow the half-casters to be able to take epic spellcasting, and i thought it illogical if they could in effect cast 1-4th level spells, but not 5-9th level, and then suddenly they can cast epic.

yes, i realize that metamagic spells of lower levels are comparable (in some aspects) to higher level spells, but that is not quite the same thing.

so anyway, that is a synopsis of how i run epic spellcasting for bards and other half-casters.

sorry for the rash response. i get a little volatile as well.

aaron out.

raygungothic
2008-04-29, 04:17 AM
I don't *believe*, from my understanding of Factotum, that epic-casting Factotums are possible without a little light houserule (albeit only extrapolation)...

... but the idea is sufficiently cool that they jolly well deserve it. Wizards cast epic spells through lengthy arcane research... factotums through having so much broad, general knowledge of the world that the sheer breadth of their experience serves as depth and allows them to achieve epic magic.

I like it. Thank you for the suggestion.

nargbop
2008-04-29, 09:14 AM
... but the idea is sufficiently cool that they jolly well deserve it. Wizards cast epic spells through lengthy arcane research... factotums through having so much broad, general knowledge of the world that the sheer breadth of their experience serves as depth and allows them to achieve epic magic.

I like it. Thank you for the suggestion.

I love the idea of a dabbler of incredible intellect who's able to hold his own conversing with the experts of a thousand fields. I'm playing a Leonardo DaVinci-type character now who will sadly never get to level 21 in our game, but in the future I want to try it out.
Mildly cheesed, he has almost 300 skill points at level 18.