PDA

View Full Version : Canonically, which deity does Jozan worship?



Frosty
2008-04-28, 12:37 AM
One of the iconic four, the Cleric Jozan worships which deity? I keep thinking it's Pelor but is it actually stated in the PHB or anywhere else?

tyckspoon
2008-04-28, 12:39 AM
I'm almost certain he's Pelorian, although I haven't looked at the actual physical PHB in a while.. check the example character for the cleric?

Reel On, Love
2008-04-28, 12:43 AM
He's got Pelor's holy symbol in a bunch of pictures, so I'd say it's Pelor.

Frosty
2008-04-28, 12:47 AM
Then WHY in Pelor's name is Jozan casting (and, by extension, Why is Pelor allowin Jozan to cast) Symbol of Pain in PHB p. 291? SoP is a Necromancy [Evil] spell.

Chronos
2008-04-28, 12:47 AM
The iconic characters are all the default character starting packages. Jozan is the Human Cleric, Tordek is the Dwarf Fighter, Lidda is the Halfling Rogue, etc.

Edit ^^ Because they re-used the art from 3.0, when all of the Symbols were covered by a single spell that didn't have an alignment descriptor.

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-28, 12:47 AM
It is also Pelor in some of the 3E novels (by T. H. Lain) that he is in.

EDIT:

Then WHY in Pelor's name is Jozan casting (and, by extension, Why is Pelor allowin Jozan to cast) Symbol of Pain in PHB p. 291? SoP is a Necromancy [Evil] spell.

That's because that picture dates back to the 3E version of the PHB, where symbol was a Universal [see text] spell. And the "see text" part only referenced certain symbols which were [Mind-Affecting] effects. Thus, 3E symbol of pain was neither Necromancy or [Evil] and any high-enough level Cleric could cast it.

EDIT2: Dang, a lot of people posted while I was doing my first edit. :smallwink:

Starsinger
2008-04-28, 12:48 AM
Then WHY in Pelor's name is Jozan casting (and, by extension, Why is Pelor allowin Jozan to cast) Symbol of Pain in PHB p. 291? SoP is a Necromancy [Evil] spell.

Because Pelor is really an evil deity masquerading as the NG god of the sun. I mean it's the perfect cover, because who would really suspect/care that Pelor is evil?

Turcano
2008-04-28, 12:49 AM
Then WHY in Pelor's name is Jozan casting (and, by extension, Why is Pelor allowin Jozan to cast) Symbol of Pain in PHB p. 291? SoP is a Necromancy [Evil] spell.

What, you were expecting internal consistency in a tabletop RPG?

JaxGaret
2008-04-28, 12:50 AM
Then WHY in Pelor's name is Jozan casting (and, by extension, Why is Pelor allowin Jozan to cast) Symbol of Pain in PHB p. 291? SoP is a Necromancy [Evil] spell.

Because someone at WotC let it slip through without properly checking it first.

RTGoodman
2008-04-28, 12:52 AM
Then WHY in Pelor's name is Jozan casting (and, by extension, Why is Pelor allowin Jozan to cast) Symbol of Pain in PHB p. 291? SoP is a Necromancy [Evil] spell.

Maybe he's NN, making him not limited in regards to spells with alignment descriptors?

Actually, I have no idea. Maybe the artist just didn't know the mechanics and just drew the same Cleric as before casting the spell he was supposed to illustrate.


Because someone at WotC let it slip through without properly checking it first.

And that. There are a lot of examples of that, too. For instance, go to Tome of Battle and look at the Ruby Knight Vindicator. The whole class, including fluff and I believe requirements, revolves around the character worshiping Wee Jas. Now look at both the pictures and the sample character - they both are depicted as followers of St. Cuthbert!

Frosty
2008-04-28, 12:55 AM
Because Pelor is really an evil deity masquerading as the NG god of the sun. I mean it's the perfect cover, because who would really suspect/care that Pelor is evil?

Although that would be really really fun. Are there any other evidence in support of that hypothesis?

Decoy69
2008-04-28, 01:01 AM
So far everyone is right. Canonicly Jozan worships Pelor.
What that means however, is up to your interpretation.

Regarding the theory that Pelor is Evil...

http://forum.zaister.de/viewtopic.php?id=5

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-28, 01:01 AM
Maybe he's NN, making him not limited in regards to spells with alignment descriptors?

Clerics of Pelor are restricted to nuetral or lawful good.

Frosty
2008-04-28, 01:18 AM
So...

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/ASuperHero/evil.gif?

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-28, 01:20 AM
Clerics of Pelor are restricted to nuetral or lawful good.

Even if they weren't, the alignment restriction on Cleric spells is actually based on the Deity's alignment (in the case of Clerics who worship a particular Deity).

EDIT: Also, Clerics of Pelor can be Chaotic Good as well.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-28, 01:43 AM
:smalleek: Oh right, surprised I missed that.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-28, 06:21 AM
Because Pelor is really an evil deity masquerading as the NG god of the sun. I mean it's the perfect cover, because who would really suspect/care that Pelor is evil?

I support this theory: Clerics of Pelor have always been pricks to me just like Pelor. While being a prick isn't evil; it is close to the line.

Ascension
2008-04-28, 06:27 AM
Regarding the theory that Pelor is Evil...

http://forum.zaister.de/viewtopic.php?id=5

This is really a very convincing argument. I'm with the above poster... Pelor must be evil!

This will doubtless have stunning effects on the game world as a whole when revealed, possibly causing the transition to 4E.

Ten bucks says it turns out that Pelor is either Asmodeus or a pawn therof.

de-trick
2008-04-28, 07:33 AM
http://forum.zaister.de/viewtopic.php?id=5

OMG funny, not making a character worship pelor anytime soon

mustaju
2008-04-28, 02:43 PM
OMG funny, not making a character worship pelor anytime soon
I am intrigued by this concept and will try to make a NE-pelor worshipper fpr my next campaign :D

Frosty
2008-04-28, 09:56 PM
But how does Pelor grant the Good domain if he's evil?

tyckspoon
2008-04-28, 10:03 PM
But how does Pelor grant the Good domain if he's evil?

Epic Use Magic Device check to emulate alignment.

SurlySeraph
2008-04-29, 12:55 AM
So far everyone is right. Canonicly Jozan worships Pelor.
What that means however, is up to your interpretation.

Regarding the theory that Pelor is Evil...

http://forum.zaister.de/viewtopic.php?id=5

Hm. That is a very convincing argument on the surface, but it can easily be rebutted by - KILLING THE HERETIC! *Sun Ninjas stab the article-writer and shine blinding light in the eyes of everyone who read it*

Cuddly
2008-04-29, 01:32 AM
It's not a good argument; it's a poor argument that uses shoddy logic.

Cyclone231
2008-04-29, 01:36 AM
Maybe he's NN, making him not limited in regards to spells with alignment descriptors?Clerics are restricted to moving one (1) step on the alignment scale away from their patron, and they cannot move towards neutral from good/evil/lawful/chaotic. As a neutral good deity, a cleric of Pelor is restricted to CG, NG, and LG.

To further clarify, a LG deity's worshippers must be LG, and a TN deity's worshippers may be CN, TN, LN, NG or NE.

The_Snark
2008-04-29, 01:39 AM
Clerics are restricted to moving one (1) step on the alignment scale away from their patron, and they cannot move towards neutral from good/evil/lawful/chaotic. As a neutral good deity, a cleric of Pelor is restricted to CG, NG, and LG.

To further clarify, a LG deity's worshippers must be LG, and a TN deity's worshippers may be CN, TN, LN, NG or NE.

Not quite; a LG deity's clerics can be Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral. (A deity's worshippers can technically be whatever alignment they like, they just won't be getting divine power. Maybe your NE rogue believes Pelor needs black ops.) Clerics must be within one step of their deity's alignment, and can never be True Neutral unless the god is True Neutral.

Cyclone231
2008-04-29, 01:46 AM
Not quite; a LG deity's clerics can be Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral. (A deity's worshippers can technically be whatever alignment they like, they just won't be getting divine power. Maybe your NE rogue believes Pelor needs black ops.) Clerics must be within one step of their deity's alignment, and can never be True Neutral unless the god is True Neutral.PHB p. 31:
"A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity's alignment is also neutral."

Note how it says neutral, not true neutral.

The_Snark
2008-04-29, 01:58 AM
Really? On page 30, under Alignment:

"Typically, a cleric is the same alignment as his deity, though some clerics are one step away from their respective deities in alignment. For example, most clerics of Heironeous, the god of valor (who is lawful good) are lawful good, but some are lawful neutral or neutral good. Additionally, a cleric may not be neutral (that is, neutral on both the good-evil axis and the lawful-chaotic axis) unless his deity is neutral."

Clarification and an example. I'm pretty sure they're only referring to true neutral here.

brian c
2008-04-29, 02:45 AM
And that. There are a lot of examples of that, too. For instance, go to Tome of Battle and look at the Ruby Knight Vindicator. The whole class, including fluff and I believe requirements, revolves around the character worshiping Wee Jas. Now look at both the pictures and the sample character - they both are depicted as followers of St. Cuthbert!

That prompted me to get my book and check; the sample character does indeed list "Deity: St. Cuthbert", although I'll point out that the guy in the picture can only be identified as a follower of St. Cuthbert because his name is given as the same as the sample character.

Also, you can't just chalk it up as a minor oversight in the name being wrong; the sample character has the Protection and Destrution domains, both of which are offered by St. Cuthbert and neither of which are offered by Wee Jas.

It seems that they used their own variant idea without being very clear about it. The "Adaptation" section just before the sample character says that you can adapt RKVs to work for different deities, such as St. Cuthbert

Foolosophy
2008-04-29, 03:46 AM
Heroes of Horror, page 5

'nuff said

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-29, 03:49 AM
Heroes of Horror, page 5

'nuff saidExcerpt for those of us who don't own the book?

Feralgeist
2008-04-29, 03:51 AM
maybe it was VAMPIRE JOZAN casting symbol of pain (read heroes of horror, you'll know what i'm talking about)

Foolosophy
2008-04-29, 04:06 AM
Excerpt for those of us who don't own the book?

I'm not comfortable quoting a whole paragraph from a book, but as a quick summary: vampire Jozan standing in midst of an army of vampire spawn while taunting Mialee, Tordek, Lidda & co

InaVegt
2008-04-29, 04:47 AM
PHB p. 31:
"A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity's alignment is also neutral."

Note how it says neutral, not true neutral.

You should remember that true neutral is not an official d20 1E term, being neutral on both the moral and ethical axis is just called being neutral.

Ascension
2008-04-29, 10:18 AM
I'm not comfortable quoting a whole paragraph from a book, but as a quick summary: vampire Jozan standing in midst of an army of vampire spawn while taunting Mialee, Tordek, Lidda & co

And what deity does vampire Jozan worship?

Frosty
2008-04-29, 12:31 PM
DO Vampires have a preferred deity?

Bauglir
2008-04-29, 01:36 PM
Probably. I'm sure it's the same guy who recently helped Ben Franklin's clone achieve immortality. (Yay, Dr McNinja references)

hamishspence
2008-04-29, 01:46 PM
there is a very nice pic in the Nightwatch mini campaign, Heroes of Horror, showing vampire Jozan (at least, it looks like him) alongside a clerical lich, facing off against the party. Its not clear why deity he or the lich worship, holy symbols are not in plain sight, and deity is not specified in the text for the Nightwatch game.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-29, 02:40 PM
And what deity does vampire Jozan worship?

Evil Pelor, of course. Which is say Pelor's True form.

Drider
2008-04-29, 04:07 PM
Jozan really worships me...I suggest everyone else get with the program.




That is all.

Grynning
2008-04-29, 07:27 PM
That prompted me to get my book and check; the sample character does indeed list "Deity: St. Cuthbert", although I'll point out that the guy in the picture can only be identified as a follower of St. Cuthbert because his name is given as the same as the sample character....

The picture was actually my first clue - look closely at the pommel of his sword. It's St. C's holy symbol. At first I thought, ok, maybe he lifted his magic sword from a follower of St. Cuthbert, but then the character description clearly stated his patron deity.

My guess is that the class was originally meant to be usable for any deity, but then someone decided it should have more specific fluff. The class features are extremely generic, and none of them would seem tied to Wee Jas's Death and Magic portfolio.