PDA

View Full Version : Bard/Paladin - Good? Bad? Excessively ugly?



Kd7sov
2008-04-28, 10:39 AM
So in my campaign I'm wanting to include Don Quixote as a recurring NPC. Naturally he'll be a paladin, but thanks to listening recently to Man of La Mancha, I'll have to have him sing as only someone with bard levels would. (Don't ask. It has to do with the way my brain reacts to music, among other things.) So I turn to you. Will this work? If so, how would I best go about it?

The Rose Dragon
2008-04-28, 10:48 AM
Complete Adventurer, page 107, Devoted Performer feat.

You want that. You need that.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-28, 10:54 AM
Yes. Devoted Performer makes the build viable.

Bardadin is decent with a fairly nonstandard build. The basic advice is to abuse the hell out of charisma synergy: Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance are probably the most important feats. Wardance, and wanting to cast Bard spells, probably means you're going for a lightly-armored TWF build, rather than a heavy-armor Chargeadin.

I used to have a Bard/Paladin build set up, but that was a long time ago, before 3eProfiler ate all my sheets. The above advice is all I really remember from it.


EDIT: If you want to save a feat, you could make him a CG Paladin of Freedom rather than a standard LG one. This may or may not fit Don Quixote better, depending on interpretation.

JaxGaret
2008-04-28, 12:10 PM
You might want to take a look at the Harmonious Partisan (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14269675#post14269675), it's one of a trio of really well-designed homebrew Bard/Paladin PrCs.

Telonius
2008-04-28, 02:35 PM
Good by definition, and with the Charisma needs it probably wouldn't be ugly.

Because of alignment constraints, take your Bard levels first before your Paladin levels. Bard abilities don't go away if you become lawful, but Paladin abilities go away if you become anything other than Lawful Good. (Also, if you multiclass out of Paladin you can never again gain a Paladin level, without a feat that specifically allows it). Personaly I think the Non-Lawful requirement on Bards is silly. Your DM may agree, so check with him on that.

Mando Knight
2008-04-28, 10:48 PM
If you want it to literally be Don Quixote, remember that he's hung up on honor and good deeds... he should have an LG alignment to match... so the Pally levels come after the Bard levels... or at least he's that way in Man of La Mancha... he's also gone slightly mad, and prior experiences could be summed up in a few Bard levels methinks...

HoopyFrood
2008-04-28, 11:19 PM
I would just like to say that this idea is ridiculous...

...ly awesome. Make sure he has the Leadership feat for Sancho Panza (commoner with levels in bard, perhaps?).

Talya
2008-04-29, 12:05 AM
double post.

Talya
2008-04-29, 12:06 AM
This is a feat-heavy thing to build. Be sure to go human. If you can get a pair of flaws, you're much better off.

Feats:

Devoted Performer (which, in order to work, must by nature eliminate the non-lawful requirement for bard levels)
Chaos Music
Snowflake Wardance
Divine Might (requires Power Attack)
Song of the Heart

Divine Bard + Prestige Paladin might be even more interesting (and both would still work with the above feats).

Overlord
2008-04-29, 12:33 AM
You won't ever be an optimized character by combining two classes from the lower end of the power totem pole, but the idea is cool, so I'd say do it. As people have already said, take Devoted Performer for sure.

So yeah, that sounds like a pretty good character concept. One of my favorite character concepts that I've never had a chance to play is a Paladin/Wizard. Is it totally unoptimized, especially compared to a Paladin/Sorcerer? Yes. Is it totally awesome? Yes, yes it is. I think I would have to convince the DM to let me use Int instead of Cha for the Paladin abilities, though. Otherwise, it might be really bad.

Draz74
2008-04-29, 12:42 AM
Don Quixote is one of those characters who makes you ponder, "Does he have ridiculously low Wisdom? Or does he have ridiculously high Wisdom, in a way that just seems foolish to the rest of us?" (If the latter, it's probably because he has rather poor Intelligence.)

Anyway, sure, go ahead and take Devoted Performer and away you go! It's not like NPCs need to be highly optimized anyway.

Kd7sov
2008-04-29, 10:13 AM
Complete Adventurer, page 107, Devoted Performer feat.

You want that. You need that.

*Happens to have CAd from the library at the moment.*

*Looks at feat in question.*

Wow. Yeah, I'd say so. I was worried about "what if I want him to have more of each class' abilities later?" but that feat takes the sting out of that.


Yes. Devoted Performer makes the build viable.

Bardadin is decent with a fairly nonstandard build. The basic advice is to abuse the hell out of charisma synergy: Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance are probably the most important feats. Wardance, and wanting to cast Bard spells, probably means you're going for a lightly-armored TWF build, rather than a heavy-armor Chargeadin.

I used to have a Bard/Paladin build set up, but that was a long time ago, before 3eProfiler ate all my sheets. The above advice is all I really remember from it.


EDIT: If you want to save a feat, you could make him a CG Paladin of Freedom rather than a standard LG one. This may or may not fit Don Quixote better, depending on interpretation.

What book are those in?


Good by definition, and with the Charisma needs it probably wouldn't be ugly.

:smallamused:Thanks.


Because of alignment constraints, take your Bard levels first before your Paladin levels. Bard abilities don't go away if you become lawful, but Paladin abilities go away if you become anything other than Lawful Good. (Also, if you multiclass out of Paladin you can never again gain a Paladin level, without a feat that specifically allows it). Personaly I think the Non-Lawful requirement on Bards is silly. Your DM may agree, so check with him on that.

Yeah, beyond the "footloose" aspect - which seems iffy, both in being required and in being chaotic - I see no reason bards would need to be non-Lawful. (And since I am the DM - or will be, once I get everything together - I won't actually need to check with anyone. See "recurring NPC" in the OP.)


If you want it to literally be Don Quixote, remember that he's hung up on honor and good deeds... he should have an LG alignment to match... so the Pally levels come after the Bard levels... or at least he's that way in Man of La Mancha... he's also gone slightly mad, and prior experiences could be summed up in a few Bard levels methinks...

Huh... that works quite well; if I don't decide to take away Bardic alignment restrictions the going slightly mad would easily cover an alignment change. Thanks.


I would just like to say that this idea is ridiculous...

...ly awesome. Make sure he has the Leadership feat for Sancho Panza (commoner with levels in bard, perhaps?).

Yeah, I'm not sure what to do about Sancho. He doesn't have nearly as much of a bard feel to me, perhaps because he only gets one song of his own. Game-optimally, he ought to be an arcane caster or a rogue, but neither fits his personality. Ah, well. I'm sure I'll figure something out.


This is a feat-heavy thing to build. Be sure to go human. If you can get a pair of flaws, you're much better off.

Feats:

Devoted Performer (which, in order to work, must by nature eliminate the non-lawful requirement for bard levels)
Chaos Music
Snowflake Wardance
Divine Might (requires Power Attack)
Song of the Heart

Divine Bard + Prestige Paladin might be even more interesting (and both would still work with the above feats).

As I implied above, I don't have all the books, so which ones are these feats and classes from?


Don Quixote is one of those characters who makes you ponder, "Does he have ridiculously low Wisdom? Or does he have ridiculously high Wisdom, in a way that just seems foolish to the rest of us?" (If the latter, it's probably because he has rather poor Intelligence.)

That is... not a way I'd looked at it before. How very interesting. I'd been thinking low-WIS, and probably low-CON, but I may have to rethink that now.


Anyway, sure, go ahead and take Devoted Performer and away you go! It's not like NPCs need to be highly optimized anyway.

Does that mean that PCs do need to be highly optimized? Personally, I'll go with whatever the character tells me s/he wants, whether I'm a DM or not.

Talya
2008-04-29, 10:36 AM
As I implied above, I don't have all the books, so which ones are these feats and classes from?

Glad you asked. The classes (the two most important of the ones listed) are Unearthed Arcana variants. Fortunately it doesn't matter if you have the books, they're SRD.

Bard Variant: Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard)
Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)

Those classes would work with the Devoted Performer feat out of C. Arc.

As for the others:

Chaos Music - http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Chaos_Music,Dragon
(Yes, this feat would need to be taken while still chaotic and not a paladin, but it doesn't seem to require that you REMAIN chaotic)
Snowflake Wardance - http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Snowflake_Wardance,Fr
Divine Might - http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Divine_Might,all
Song of the Heart - http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Song_Of_The_Heart,ECS

Kd7sov
2008-04-29, 12:35 PM
Hmmm, interesting. I don't see that Prestige Paladin adds much, particularly since it'd require a level of Cleric.

Chaos music is intruiging, but if I don't add other classes Devoted Performer would serve the same purpose. (Also, it doesn't say on the page you linked that it requires a chaotic alignment, although it would be weird to have a lawful character using the power of chaos.)

I like Snowflake Wardance, but I think it's more suited to another bard percolating in the back of my head - one more likely to take ranks in Perform (dance).

No particular comments on Divine Might or Song of the Heart, except to wonder why the former isn't in Complete Divine.

Talya
2008-04-29, 12:42 PM
Hmmm, interesting. I don't see that Prestige Paladin adds much, particularly since it'd require a level of Cleric.

What it does is advance your bardic casting. Although you might do better with it advancing clerical casting if your wisdom is high enough. In either case, it lets you ignore the anemic paladin spell list.


Chaos music is intruiging, but if I don't add other classes Devoted Performer would serve the same purpose. (Also, it doesn't say on the page you linked that it requires a chaotic alignment, although it would be weird to have a lawful character using the power of chaos.)

Actually no, they do different things. Devoted performer lets you tack on more uses of bardic music per day, but chaos music lets you get higher level songs.



I like Snowflake Wardance, but I think it's more suited to another bard percolating in the back of my head - one more likely to take ranks in Perform (dance).

If it doesn't stylisticly apply, then it doesn't. But the mechanical effect is great.

Kd7sov
2008-04-29, 01:08 PM
What it does is advance your bardic casting. Although you might do better with it advancing clerical casting if your wisdom is high enough. In either case, it lets you ignore the anemic paladin spell list.


Actually no, they do different things. Devoted performer lets you tack on more uses of bardic music per day, but chaos music lets you get higher level songs.

It seems I need to invest in Knowledge (read the whole thing), or something like that.

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-29, 01:34 PM
This is a feat-heavy thing to build. Be sure to go human. If you can get a pair of flaws, you're much better off.

Feats:

Devoted Performer (which, in order to work, must by nature eliminate the non-lawful requirement for bard levels)
Of course it does; it says so right in the feat. :smalltongue:

Draz74
2008-04-29, 01:44 PM
You can look up a LOT of feats from many splatbooks here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml).


Does that mean that PCs do need to be highly optimized? Personally, I'll go with whatever the character tells me s/he wants, whether I'm a DM or not.

Well, depends on the campaign. PCs need to be somewhat optimized if your DM is a fellow powergamer and has a policy "your character will die if it can't handle the challenges I'm throwing out." Or if your fellow party members are optimized and you don't have fun when you're not contributing much to the party. And people on these forums tend to assume you're playing in one of these styles of games, even though there are plenty of valid D&D campaigns (e.g. my current one) where these conditions are not the case, and a completely non-optimized PC will do fine.

My point was that, even in a more competitive-style campaign, even the competitive posters on this board will be less worried about optimization for a recurring NPC than they would be for a PC.

Hal
2008-04-29, 02:01 PM
The only problem with going Divine Bard --> Prestige Paladin is that you lose all that Cha synergy. Divine Bard uses Wis as its casting stat.

Kd7sov
2008-04-29, 03:16 PM
The only problem with going Divine Bard --> Prestige Paladin is that you lose all that Cha synergy. Divine Bard uses Wis as its casting stat.

Well, and that Prestige Paladin requires the ability to turn undead, which Divine Bard doesn't provide.

Chronos
2008-04-29, 04:12 PM
That is... not a way I'd looked at it before. How very interesting. I'd been thinking low-WIS, and probably low-CON, but I may have to rethink that now."When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where true madness lies?"

From that very same musical, if I'm not mistaken.

HoopyFrood
2008-04-29, 07:34 PM
Insight:
Don Quixote is a bard who purposefully fails the will saves of his own illusions.

cupkeyk
2008-04-29, 07:41 PM
Does chaos music and vest of legends increase your bard level past your hd?

Aquillion
2008-04-29, 08:20 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure what to do about Sancho. He doesn't have nearly as much of a bard feel to me, perhaps because he only gets one song of his own. Game-optimally, he ought to be an arcane caster or a rogue, but neither fits his personality. Ah, well. I'm sure I'll figure something out.Rogue sort of fits -- not all rogues have to be thieves, you know, or do anything criminal at all (rogue is commonly given as the best class for a city guard, for instance--that or urban ranger, though sneak attacks with a sap are practically tailor-made for a group of cops arresting someone safely.)

Sancho's a down-to-earth, practical sort of guy who has to constantly keep his master out of trouble using his wits. He has the general 'attitude' of a rogue, you could say... it's hard to imagine him in any other PC class.

Kd7sov
2008-04-30, 08:31 AM
Rogue sort of fits -- not all rogues have to be thieves, you know, or do anything criminal at all (rogue is commonly given as the best class for a city guard, for instance--that or urban ranger, though sneak attacks with a sap are practically tailor-made for a group of cops arresting someone safely.)

Sancho's a down-to-earth, practical sort of guy who has to constantly keep his master out of trouble using his wits. He has the general 'attitude' of a rogue, you could say... it's hard to imagine him in any other PC class.

Hm. When you put it that way... I was thinking of sneakiness as the general attitude of the rogue. But you're certainly right about it being at least as good a fit as any of the other classes.