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View Full Version : Assassin PrC, The good and bad



rockdeworld
2008-04-28, 02:22 PM
Hey all, me again, this time with Assassins (the PrC, and yes, I have done the search button, but you try looking through 26 pages in this board alone :smallyuk:).

Now, I've been roleplaying for awhile, and I tend to favor characters who follow an assassin-like route (fight with two daggers, be sneaky, go for the 1-hit-kill). Then I started playing DnD, and of course my eyes were attracted to the assassin class. Now that I've played DnD for a bit, my general synopsis of the Assassin class is: it stinks. At least, compared to the more powerful ones anyway (i.e. Swordsage, wizard).

My run-down
Assassins are:
-rogues, stat-wise, except for 1 thing
-Poison users
-Death Attack users
-evil (wtf?! Non-good was too broad?)
-still an awesome concept (and get HiPS at level 7, a cool skill), and therefore worth looking into.

Assassins are not:
-high HP "in the fray-ers"
-high BAB fighters
-rogues, skill-points-wise

So essentially assassins are rogues with death attacks and poisons. Then naturally they want to use those the most right? It's not like they're skill-heavy anymore, after all. So let's see...

Death Attack:
-Doesn't work against undead, constructs, oozes, anything else immune to critical hits, or anyone that recognizes you as an enemy (so not during fights that you want to participate in)
-Requires 3 turns to use (on 1 person, by which time any normal enemies are dead or close to it, and bosses will make the save anyway), but you can fight while studying an enemy
-Requires a successful melee attack (with the Rogue's low attack, no bonus, not even a "touch" attack)
-Has a save (and a Fortitude save at that - meaning it won't work against most monsters, or any fighter-like BBEGs), but it is a scaling save, which is (pretty) good.

...That's a lot of restrictions for the benefit. Probably too many for use in regular combat (even if it could be with the first restriction).

So if Death Attack isn't for normal use, what about poison? I could refine my original statement about Assassins to simply poisons: they stink.

Poisons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison):
-Are illegal to own or buy
-Are expensive (The cheapest cost more than most weapons, and have fewer uses)
-Stop working after one hit, whether they successfully poison the enemy or not
-Have low save-DCs, and they're fortitude, so while mages and rogues are fair targets, enemy monsters and BBEGs aren't (read: black adder venom through medium spider venom, the "cheap" poisons)
-Generally have small effects per use (i.e. Greenblood oil)
-Seem to have a cost that is exponential to their usefulness (i.e. Greenblood oil sucks and costs 100 gp, Black Lotus Extract rocks and costs 4500 gp - per dose)

So for poisons to be effective in combat you must:
(1) Apply them to a weapon
(2) Attack and hit your enemy (with 3/4 BAB progression it's easy right? :smallyuk:)
(3) Hope that they fail their save
(4) Repeat (because 1 poisoning usually isn't good enough)

So the cost-to-benefit ratio is... Extremely high. Unless you're in a campaign with infinite money and you can afford 10000 Dragon Biles and Black Lotus Extracts, and then apply them to 10000 arrows or bolts (since poisons naturally favor weapons on which they can be used again and again, like ammunition), they're hard to use effectively.

Let's be serious, a Sleep spell can take out more enemies than Drow Poison, and it has a higher save (usually) - same with Deep Slumber.


Despite all of this, I believe that the Assassin looks like it could be a lot of fun if done correctly. So the question becomes, how do you best build a PrC assassin?

Here's my idea of a decent level 1 assassin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=51415). I know the daggers exceed WBL, but ignore that.

Rogue 4 for entry into the Assassin class, evasion, and other abilities
Duskblade 1 for +1 BAB, +2 Fort and Will, and Armored Mage (since Assassins cast arcane spells)

Moving into the Assassin class, I think that Rogue 4/Duskblade or Fighter 1 is one of the better setups - duskblades help with spellcasting, fighters get another feat, both give +1 BAB at the level the rogue doesn't.

Death Attack DC 19 = 10 + 1 (Assassin level) + 4 (Int) + 2 (Assassin's Daggers) + 2 (Ability Focus)
It's a death attack for just about anyone at this level, and by level 10 (ECL 16) it is 28 (30 with Fox's Cunning).

For spells... (what I think anyways)
Level 1
True Strike: A GREAT level 1 spell, since you can study an opponent for 2 rounds, cast True Strike, and hit them on the first round after with Death Attack
Disguise Self: can be substituted by a cheap hat
Sleep: useless by this level (> 5)
Detect Poison: good... if you forget which of your weapons are poisoned (and even then, Assassins get bonuses on saves against poisons)
Feather Fall is Feather Fall
So... Obscuring Mist? Jump? Ghost Sound? All 3 have their uses, but none really stand out

Level 2
Alter Self: gold. I've also heard it described as cheese.
Cat's Grace: I've never heard anyone say "I really need +2 AC right now, so Cat's Grace me!" (which doesn't mean it hasn't happened)
Darkness: it supports HiPS!
Fox's Cunning: This spell might as well be called "+2 Death Attack DC" because that's what it does (and that's all it does)
Illusionary Script: wtf? Usefulness on par with Forgery.
Invisibility: GOLD!
Pass Without Trace / Undetectable Alignment: I guess if you're being scryed?
Spider Climb: Like Jump, it has its uses (usually in the same places)

Level 3
Mostly improvements from levels 1 & 2.
Deep Slumber: You're level 10 by the time you get this, so its usefulness is short-lived
Deeper Darkness: A bigger, better darkness. Woohoo?
False Life: In case you need an extra 10 HP. Useless for assassins, who shouldn't be worrying about HP in the first place.
Magic Circle Against Good: Yeah, I guess if you're an assassin you'll mainly be fighting good guys... Wait, fighting?
Misdirection / Nondetection: Like PWT and Undetectable Alignment, limited use.

Level 4
It's a pity you can choose only 4 of these (kindof).
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Your own personal scrying spell... I've never used it.
Dimension Door: The gold standard in moving around, or just GTFO once you've hit your target
Freedom of Movement: For use underwater, I suppose, or when caught in someone's arms.
Glibness: You can kill someone in front of a crowd and then lie about it! And get away with it! This bluff buff is basically broken, though it only lasts for an hour or so.
Greater Invisibility: GOLD!
Locate Creature: You can use it to find targets, if that's your thing.
Modify Memory: Obliviate! Er, wait... Shouldn't you be killing eye-witnesses, or lying about your (mis)deeds?
Poison: The one GOOD poison. You don't need illegal poisons anymore, you now have an awesome touch attack poison that scales with your Assassin level AND your Wis! (Warning: Induces MAD)
Eh, sarcasm slowly crept in as the levels went up. But seriously, my 10th level assassin would probably have these spells:
1: True Strike, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall, Ghost Sound
2: Alter Self, Fox's Cunning, Invisibility, Spider Climb
3: Deep Slumber, Deeper Darkness, Misdirection, Nondetection
4: Dimdoor, Glibness, Greater Invisibility, Poison

I repeat invisibility because it's that good for the assassin (and having it on 2 different levels allows for other level 2,4 spells to be used).

So for you more experienced players, what's the deal? Are there really good assassin builds? Are there any good assassin builds? Are there any good assassins (in both senses of the word)?

Learnedguy
2008-04-28, 02:36 PM
Hmm. Would it work to take a dip into the Master Thrower PRC (or whatever it was called) to get touch attacks for your thrown Death Attacks?

Draz74
2008-04-28, 02:47 PM
So for you more experienced players, what's the deal? Are there really good assassin builds? Are there any good assassin builds? Are there any good assassins (in both senses of the word)?

The best thing about the Assassin PrC, which you entirely missed, is the spellcasting (for better or worse). INT-based, spontaneous, arcane, and includes a decent selection of spells if you're allowed to include splatbook support (SpC). Wraithstrike, in particular, is a huge boon to the class.

A long time ago, a build went around the forums that was not uber, but pretty nice as swashbuckler-types go. Gray Elf Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 5 / Bladesinger 10. Good skills, 17 BAB, +4d6 sneak attack (or +6d6 if you can squeeze Daring Outlaw into your feats), a full 10 levels of INT-based Assassin spellcasting, INT to AC, INT to damage, INT to Death Attack DC (although that DC is still pretty low, just 15+INT), light armor, good for TWF if you have enough feats, and the ability to cast an (effectively) Quickened spell anytime you make a full attack.

The easiest way to make a powerful "assassin" character is, of course, just a straight Swordsage with assassin-style maneuvers chosen. Any alignment allowed. Also multiclass-friendly -- in fact, you could probably get decent mileage out of using the Bladesinger build above, but with 2 Swordsage levels instead of Rogue levels. Maybe even 5 Swordsage levels instead of Rogue and Swashbuckler levels.

As far as just alignment issues go, if your DM won't let you use the DMG Assassin as a neutral character but he allows web content, WotC released an Avenger class online at one point that was 99% the same as the Assassin except for the alignment restriction. (The new alignment rule was any non-Lawful IIRC.)

herrhauptmann
2008-04-28, 10:14 PM
Now that I've played DnD for a bit, my general synopsis of the Assassin class is: it stinks. At least, compared to the more powerful ones anyway (i.e. Swordsage, wizard).


1)Question: Weren't the DMG prestige classes meant to be more for NPCs than for the PCs?
2)There's been a metric butt-load of threads at one point or another (on many forums) about the 'power-creep'. IE: That newer classes and PrCs will be slightly more powerful than the older ones, regardless of when they come out.
3)ToB in general, Sword Sage in particular always seemed to me to be more than a little broken in comparison to everything else...

But yeah, I agree with you. My evil rogue uses a crossbow for most of his career (12 levels), becomes an Assassin, now can no longer use his favorite weapon??

Hal
2008-04-28, 10:29 PM
Just FYI, there are "Greater Poisons" in Dungeonscape. Granted, they are far more expensive, but the worst one has a save DC of 44, and there is another with a secondary damage of "Death," so it's at least feasible to be a poison user.

cupkeyk
2008-04-28, 10:47 PM
Hmm. Would it work to take a dip into the Master Thrower PRC (or whatever it was called) to get touch attacks for your thrown Death Attacks?


Only a dip won't do, master thrower needs to be level 5 to get that class feature, which means you've taken the entire class.


1)But yeah, I agree with you. My evil rogue uses a crossbow for most of his career (12 levels), becomes an Assassin, now can no longer use his favorite weapon??

Gaining a new class lets you retain your old class features unless otherwise stated. So a rogue will retain his weapon proficiency with the crossbow.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-29, 04:01 AM
1)Question: Weren't the DMG prestige classes meant to be more for NPCs than for the PCs?
Not really, no.

Most of them are, however, rather underpowered and/or suffering from design flaws.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-29, 04:20 AM
The easiest way to make a powerful "assassin" character is, of course, just a straight Swordsage with assassin-style maneuvers chosen. Any alignment allowed.

Is there ANYTHING swordsages can't replace?

tyckspoon
2008-04-29, 04:24 AM
Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians. Swordsages work well for more skilled and/or mystical ideas.. everybody else is what the rest of the Tome of Battle is for.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-04-29, 04:40 AM
Only a dip won't do, master thrower needs to be level 5 to get that class feature, which means you've taken the entire class.

And that is not even the biggest problem for such a build to work.

Death Attack only works with melee weapons. :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-29, 04:50 AM
And that is not even the biggest problem for such a build to work.

Death Attack only works with melee weapons. :smallamused:Go Bloodstorm Blade instead, then. That thing is the best PrC for throwing short of the Hulking Hurler.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-04-29, 04:58 AM
Go Bloodstorm Blade instead, then. That thing is the best PrC for throwing short of the Hulking Hurler.

That may be true, but it still does not help with Death Attack. What matters is not what you throw, but the fact that it is thrown rather than used in melee.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-29, 05:08 AM
That may be true, but it still does not help with Death Attack. What matters is not what you throw, but the fact that it is thrown rather than used in melee.

Thunderous Throw:As a swift action, you can choose to treat your Ranged Attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Str bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the normal penalties.
In addition, you can apply 1.5* your Str bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon in two hands, and you can use PA with your thrown weapon attacks (adding 2* the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus to damage when wielding a 2-handed weapon)Yes, it requires 2 levels of the class, and a dip in Warblade on top of that, but it should let you Death Attack at range.

Cuddly
2008-04-29, 05:12 AM
How would you guys turn the Assassin's death attack into a maneuvre?
As in, getting rid of that crappy study for three full rounds mechanism?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-04-29, 05:13 AM
Yes, it requires 2 levels of the class, and a dip in Warblade on top of that, but it should let you Death Attack at range.

Indeed you are correct. Not very sneaky, but highly effective. :smalltongue:

FMArthur
2008-04-29, 06:48 AM
How would you guys turn the Assassin's death attack into a maneuvre?
As in, getting rid of that crappy study for three full rounds mechanism?

I'd have it possible to do at any time, but make the save DCs increase with the amount of time taken to study (making it infeasible to do in under 3 rounds anyway). You are attempting an instant-death ability.:smallconfused:

Person_Man
2008-04-29, 09:30 AM
Assassin builds are utterly nerfed beyond ECL 15, because their spells don't scale beyond that point, and their Death Attack only scales if you take one of a few generally cruddy PrC that have abilities that stack with Death Attack.

Death Attack is also nerfed. First, unless your enemy is talkative and you can just walk up to him and Bluff him for 3 rounds while you study him, you have to sneak up on him. To sneak up on an enemy, you have to be by yourself, or have an entire party that's willing to Hide and Move Silently (or use Invisibility Sphere and Silence and Telepathy of some sort). So it will be rare that you can use it at all. And let's say that you can use it - even if you successfully Hide and Move Silently, you have to make a successful attack. If you make that attack, your enemy gets a Fort Save. High Fort Saves are the most common in D&D. And the enemy you want to kill in the surprise round the most is the one of the highest hit points - who will also have the highest Fort Save. So in summary, its very difficult to use the Assassin's signature ability.

Having said that, its not impossible to play an optimized Assassin. Take ranks in UMD (via Rogue or Warlock) and get a Wand of Flame Blade or Fire Dagger (Spell Comp). This will give you touch attacks.

Party with a caster that can cast the spells you need to keep everyone hidden, and debuff enemies just before you Death Attack them. If everyone optimizes to debuff together (Hexblade/Blackguard, Bard with Doomspeak, any full caster), you can impose ridiculous penalties, and kill pretty much anything during the first round.

And above all else, mine the splat books. Virtually all of them have at least one or two Assassin spells, and some are quite potent.

rockdeworld
2008-04-29, 01:47 PM
I don't have access to any of the splatbooks, or really anything outside of Crystal Keep. I tend to look at classes in Crystal Keep, but I don't know most prestige classes, since CK only does 2 levels each.

I realized the character sheet was private (oops) and fixed it.

I think the capstone of the Assassin class comes at level 7, with HiPS, which is sad, because a level dip in Shadowdancer gives the same thing at ECL 8, and that's the Assassin's only unique ability after level 2. Once you get HiPS, you can literally walk up to an enemy and stab them in the face (for a Death Attack), provided your Hide modifier is high enough. The only 2 reasons NOT to dip into Shadowdancer is (1) spellcasting progression and (2) if you're going to level 12, you get that ability anyway.

I think we all agree that the Death Attack is the Assassin's main weapon, although there are many ways to go about it. Even if it's nerfed, an assassin with HiPS and focusing on DA can really hurt, right? Let's see:

DA bonuses:
10
+2 w/ 2 Assassin's daggers (Can you Heighten Slay Living for a higher DC bonus like Greater Slaying Arrow uses Heightened FoD?)
+2 Ability Focus
+2 Fox's Cunning
+4 Int
======
Level +20 = 21 - 31 (depending on Level)

If my first post says anything about DA, it's that I understand that DA is nerfed. Nevertheless, I can see myself at level 15 taking 3 turns in a fight to walk up to an enemy and hit him with a DC 30 SoD.

I agree that after Level 15 you get the assassin's capstone (+1 on: BAB, Reflex, saves against poison, level 4 spell and spells/day, DA DC - but no special abilities) which is pretty dull, and then you start going down in effectiveness as your enemies get tougher while you stay the same. The question, then, is how much more can an assassin be improved in those 15 levels? Is the Assassin class a slave class, where once you start you can't stop until you're finished, because to take even a 1 level dip sets you back 1 DC and 1 spellcasting level, or are there ways to make it better without sacrificing much?

Chronos
2008-04-29, 03:04 PM
The only 2 reasons NOT to dip into Shadowdancer is (1) spellcasting progression and (2) if you're going to level 12, you get that ability anyway.The other reason not to dip Shadowdancer is the entry requirements: None of those feats really does you any good. The only reason it's viable at all is that there's a dearth of good feats for rogue-types in Core, so you're not giving up much.

rockdeworld
2008-04-30, 12:50 PM
So is the Assassin a "slave class"? Is there a class that can follow up Assassin for levels 17-20?

How about this for a build (28-point buy stats):
Halfling Assassin
Base Stats: 10 16 10 18 8 8
1 Rogue - Weapon Finesse: Dagger
2 Rogue
3 Duskblade - Improved Initiative
4 Duskblade - Int +1
5 Duskblade
6 Assassin - Ability Focus (Death Attack)
7 Assassin
8 Assassin - Int +1
9 Assassin - TWF
10 Assassin
11 Assassin
12 Assassin - Skill Focus (Hide), Int +1
13 Assassin
14 Assassin
15 Assassin - Weapon Focus (Dagger)
16 Assassin - Int +2
17 Invisible Blade
18 Invisible Blade - Lightning Reflexes
19 Invisible Blade
20 Invisible Blade - Dex +1?

Person_Man
2008-04-30, 02:11 PM
Is there a class that can follow up Assassin for levels 17-20?

From the Lists of Stuff (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842) thread, here are classes with Death Attack and when it becomes available. Some like Black Flame Zealot specifically stack with the Assassin's ability. Others are silent on the matter, but a good DM will generally allow it.

I'd also add that any that debuffs and enemy effectively helps your Death Attack. So Hexblade of Paladin of Tyranny is a good entry.

Assassin 1, ecl 6
Black Flame Zealot 1, ecl 6, Complete Divine
Dark Hunter 5, ecl 10, Complete Warrior
Darkwood Stalker 10, ecl 15, Complete Warrior
Stonedeath Assasin 5, ecl 10, Races of Stone - stonedeath strike, not quite death attack
Cultist of the Shattered Peak 5, ecl ??, Forgotten Realms: Lost Empires of Faerun
Monk of the Long Death ???
Telflammar Shadowlord 6, ecl ???, FR: Unapproachable East
Thayan Slaver 1, ecl 8, FR: Unapproachable East -
Slayer of Domiel 1
Justice of Weald and Woe 10
Strifeleader ??, ecl ??, FR: Faiths & Pantheons
Imaskari Vengeance Seeker 10, ecl ?? , FR: Underdark
Justice of Weald and Woe ?, ecl ?, Champions of Ruin

None of these classes fixes the spell problem that I put in my previous post.

I'd also mention that Hide in Plain Site is nifty, but that in most cases you need to use a Move action to Hide. This limits you to a single Standard action each round to attack or cast spells. So its not very useful for many builds.

rockdeworld
2008-04-30, 05:55 PM
:smallsmile: I'm happy you guys read the WotC boards, because I don't know if I could go through all that.

I think with Black Flame Zealot, the DAs don't stack. You'd have a level 10 Assassin DA and a level 1 BFZ DA. Plus, BFZ uses divine spells has weird pre-reqs (but other than that is good).

I don't have most of those books, so I can't really check the others. Would extra Duskblade levels be worth it for spellcasting? Hexblade definately induces MAD, and isn't worth it for spellcasting (and Hexblade's curse gives a weak saving throw!)

rockdeworld
2008-04-30, 05:59 PM
:smallsmile: I'm happy you guys read the WotC boards, because I don't know if I could go through all that.

I think with Black Flame Zealot, the DAs don't stack. You'd have a level 10 Assassin DA and a level 1 BFZ DA. Plus, BFZ uses divine spells has weird pre-reqs (but other than that is good).

I don't have most of those books, so I can't really check the others. Would extra Duskblade levels be worth it for spellcasting?

Hexblade doesn't seem to be worth it for spellcasting, and Hexblade's curse gives a weak saving throw unless you induce MAD.

Paladin of Tyrrany's Aura of Despair can work with DA...

Can these classes work with the Assassin?