rockdeworld
2008-04-28, 02:22 PM
Hey all, me again, this time with Assassins (the PrC, and yes, I have done the search button, but you try looking through 26 pages in this board alone :smallyuk:).
Now, I've been roleplaying for awhile, and I tend to favor characters who follow an assassin-like route (fight with two daggers, be sneaky, go for the 1-hit-kill). Then I started playing DnD, and of course my eyes were attracted to the assassin class. Now that I've played DnD for a bit, my general synopsis of the Assassin class is: it stinks. At least, compared to the more powerful ones anyway (i.e. Swordsage, wizard).
My run-down
Assassins are:
-rogues, stat-wise, except for 1 thing
-Poison users
-Death Attack users
-evil (wtf?! Non-good was too broad?)
-still an awesome concept (and get HiPS at level 7, a cool skill), and therefore worth looking into.
Assassins are not:
-high HP "in the fray-ers"
-high BAB fighters
-rogues, skill-points-wise
So essentially assassins are rogues with death attacks and poisons. Then naturally they want to use those the most right? It's not like they're skill-heavy anymore, after all. So let's see...
Death Attack:
-Doesn't work against undead, constructs, oozes, anything else immune to critical hits, or anyone that recognizes you as an enemy (so not during fights that you want to participate in)
-Requires 3 turns to use (on 1 person, by which time any normal enemies are dead or close to it, and bosses will make the save anyway), but you can fight while studying an enemy
-Requires a successful melee attack (with the Rogue's low attack, no bonus, not even a "touch" attack)
-Has a save (and a Fortitude save at that - meaning it won't work against most monsters, or any fighter-like BBEGs), but it is a scaling save, which is (pretty) good.
...That's a lot of restrictions for the benefit. Probably too many for use in regular combat (even if it could be with the first restriction).
So if Death Attack isn't for normal use, what about poison? I could refine my original statement about Assassins to simply poisons: they stink.
Poisons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison):
-Are illegal to own or buy
-Are expensive (The cheapest cost more than most weapons, and have fewer uses)
-Stop working after one hit, whether they successfully poison the enemy or not
-Have low save-DCs, and they're fortitude, so while mages and rogues are fair targets, enemy monsters and BBEGs aren't (read: black adder venom through medium spider venom, the "cheap" poisons)
-Generally have small effects per use (i.e. Greenblood oil)
-Seem to have a cost that is exponential to their usefulness (i.e. Greenblood oil sucks and costs 100 gp, Black Lotus Extract rocks and costs 4500 gp - per dose)
So for poisons to be effective in combat you must:
(1) Apply them to a weapon
(2) Attack and hit your enemy (with 3/4 BAB progression it's easy right? :smallyuk:)
(3) Hope that they fail their save
(4) Repeat (because 1 poisoning usually isn't good enough)
So the cost-to-benefit ratio is... Extremely high. Unless you're in a campaign with infinite money and you can afford 10000 Dragon Biles and Black Lotus Extracts, and then apply them to 10000 arrows or bolts (since poisons naturally favor weapons on which they can be used again and again, like ammunition), they're hard to use effectively.
Let's be serious, a Sleep spell can take out more enemies than Drow Poison, and it has a higher save (usually) - same with Deep Slumber.
Despite all of this, I believe that the Assassin looks like it could be a lot of fun if done correctly. So the question becomes, how do you best build a PrC assassin?
Here's my idea of a decent level 1 assassin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=51415). I know the daggers exceed WBL, but ignore that.
Rogue 4 for entry into the Assassin class, evasion, and other abilities
Duskblade 1 for +1 BAB, +2 Fort and Will, and Armored Mage (since Assassins cast arcane spells)
Moving into the Assassin class, I think that Rogue 4/Duskblade or Fighter 1 is one of the better setups - duskblades help with spellcasting, fighters get another feat, both give +1 BAB at the level the rogue doesn't.
Death Attack DC 19 = 10 + 1 (Assassin level) + 4 (Int) + 2 (Assassin's Daggers) + 2 (Ability Focus)
It's a death attack for just about anyone at this level, and by level 10 (ECL 16) it is 28 (30 with Fox's Cunning).
For spells... (what I think anyways)
Level 1
True Strike: A GREAT level 1 spell, since you can study an opponent for 2 rounds, cast True Strike, and hit them on the first round after with Death Attack
Disguise Self: can be substituted by a cheap hat
Sleep: useless by this level (> 5)
Detect Poison: good... if you forget which of your weapons are poisoned (and even then, Assassins get bonuses on saves against poisons)
Feather Fall is Feather Fall
So... Obscuring Mist? Jump? Ghost Sound? All 3 have their uses, but none really stand out
Level 2
Alter Self: gold. I've also heard it described as cheese.
Cat's Grace: I've never heard anyone say "I really need +2 AC right now, so Cat's Grace me!" (which doesn't mean it hasn't happened)
Darkness: it supports HiPS!
Fox's Cunning: This spell might as well be called "+2 Death Attack DC" because that's what it does (and that's all it does)
Illusionary Script: wtf? Usefulness on par with Forgery.
Invisibility: GOLD!
Pass Without Trace / Undetectable Alignment: I guess if you're being scryed?
Spider Climb: Like Jump, it has its uses (usually in the same places)
Level 3
Mostly improvements from levels 1 & 2.
Deep Slumber: You're level 10 by the time you get this, so its usefulness is short-lived
Deeper Darkness: A bigger, better darkness. Woohoo?
False Life: In case you need an extra 10 HP. Useless for assassins, who shouldn't be worrying about HP in the first place.
Magic Circle Against Good: Yeah, I guess if you're an assassin you'll mainly be fighting good guys... Wait, fighting?
Misdirection / Nondetection: Like PWT and Undetectable Alignment, limited use.
Level 4
It's a pity you can choose only 4 of these (kindof).
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Your own personal scrying spell... I've never used it.
Dimension Door: The gold standard in moving around, or just GTFO once you've hit your target
Freedom of Movement: For use underwater, I suppose, or when caught in someone's arms.
Glibness: You can kill someone in front of a crowd and then lie about it! And get away with it! This bluff buff is basically broken, though it only lasts for an hour or so.
Greater Invisibility: GOLD!
Locate Creature: You can use it to find targets, if that's your thing.
Modify Memory: Obliviate! Er, wait... Shouldn't you be killing eye-witnesses, or lying about your (mis)deeds?
Poison: The one GOOD poison. You don't need illegal poisons anymore, you now have an awesome touch attack poison that scales with your Assassin level AND your Wis! (Warning: Induces MAD)
Eh, sarcasm slowly crept in as the levels went up. But seriously, my 10th level assassin would probably have these spells:
1: True Strike, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall, Ghost Sound
2: Alter Self, Fox's Cunning, Invisibility, Spider Climb
3: Deep Slumber, Deeper Darkness, Misdirection, Nondetection
4: Dimdoor, Glibness, Greater Invisibility, Poison
I repeat invisibility because it's that good for the assassin (and having it on 2 different levels allows for other level 2,4 spells to be used).
So for you more experienced players, what's the deal? Are there really good assassin builds? Are there any good assassin builds? Are there any good assassins (in both senses of the word)?
Now, I've been roleplaying for awhile, and I tend to favor characters who follow an assassin-like route (fight with two daggers, be sneaky, go for the 1-hit-kill). Then I started playing DnD, and of course my eyes were attracted to the assassin class. Now that I've played DnD for a bit, my general synopsis of the Assassin class is: it stinks. At least, compared to the more powerful ones anyway (i.e. Swordsage, wizard).
My run-down
Assassins are:
-rogues, stat-wise, except for 1 thing
-Poison users
-Death Attack users
-evil (wtf?! Non-good was too broad?)
-still an awesome concept (and get HiPS at level 7, a cool skill), and therefore worth looking into.
Assassins are not:
-high HP "in the fray-ers"
-high BAB fighters
-rogues, skill-points-wise
So essentially assassins are rogues with death attacks and poisons. Then naturally they want to use those the most right? It's not like they're skill-heavy anymore, after all. So let's see...
Death Attack:
-Doesn't work against undead, constructs, oozes, anything else immune to critical hits, or anyone that recognizes you as an enemy (so not during fights that you want to participate in)
-Requires 3 turns to use (on 1 person, by which time any normal enemies are dead or close to it, and bosses will make the save anyway), but you can fight while studying an enemy
-Requires a successful melee attack (with the Rogue's low attack, no bonus, not even a "touch" attack)
-Has a save (and a Fortitude save at that - meaning it won't work against most monsters, or any fighter-like BBEGs), but it is a scaling save, which is (pretty) good.
...That's a lot of restrictions for the benefit. Probably too many for use in regular combat (even if it could be with the first restriction).
So if Death Attack isn't for normal use, what about poison? I could refine my original statement about Assassins to simply poisons: they stink.
Poisons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison):
-Are illegal to own or buy
-Are expensive (The cheapest cost more than most weapons, and have fewer uses)
-Stop working after one hit, whether they successfully poison the enemy or not
-Have low save-DCs, and they're fortitude, so while mages and rogues are fair targets, enemy monsters and BBEGs aren't (read: black adder venom through medium spider venom, the "cheap" poisons)
-Generally have small effects per use (i.e. Greenblood oil)
-Seem to have a cost that is exponential to their usefulness (i.e. Greenblood oil sucks and costs 100 gp, Black Lotus Extract rocks and costs 4500 gp - per dose)
So for poisons to be effective in combat you must:
(1) Apply them to a weapon
(2) Attack and hit your enemy (with 3/4 BAB progression it's easy right? :smallyuk:)
(3) Hope that they fail their save
(4) Repeat (because 1 poisoning usually isn't good enough)
So the cost-to-benefit ratio is... Extremely high. Unless you're in a campaign with infinite money and you can afford 10000 Dragon Biles and Black Lotus Extracts, and then apply them to 10000 arrows or bolts (since poisons naturally favor weapons on which they can be used again and again, like ammunition), they're hard to use effectively.
Let's be serious, a Sleep spell can take out more enemies than Drow Poison, and it has a higher save (usually) - same with Deep Slumber.
Despite all of this, I believe that the Assassin looks like it could be a lot of fun if done correctly. So the question becomes, how do you best build a PrC assassin?
Here's my idea of a decent level 1 assassin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=51415). I know the daggers exceed WBL, but ignore that.
Rogue 4 for entry into the Assassin class, evasion, and other abilities
Duskblade 1 for +1 BAB, +2 Fort and Will, and Armored Mage (since Assassins cast arcane spells)
Moving into the Assassin class, I think that Rogue 4/Duskblade or Fighter 1 is one of the better setups - duskblades help with spellcasting, fighters get another feat, both give +1 BAB at the level the rogue doesn't.
Death Attack DC 19 = 10 + 1 (Assassin level) + 4 (Int) + 2 (Assassin's Daggers) + 2 (Ability Focus)
It's a death attack for just about anyone at this level, and by level 10 (ECL 16) it is 28 (30 with Fox's Cunning).
For spells... (what I think anyways)
Level 1
True Strike: A GREAT level 1 spell, since you can study an opponent for 2 rounds, cast True Strike, and hit them on the first round after with Death Attack
Disguise Self: can be substituted by a cheap hat
Sleep: useless by this level (> 5)
Detect Poison: good... if you forget which of your weapons are poisoned (and even then, Assassins get bonuses on saves against poisons)
Feather Fall is Feather Fall
So... Obscuring Mist? Jump? Ghost Sound? All 3 have their uses, but none really stand out
Level 2
Alter Self: gold. I've also heard it described as cheese.
Cat's Grace: I've never heard anyone say "I really need +2 AC right now, so Cat's Grace me!" (which doesn't mean it hasn't happened)
Darkness: it supports HiPS!
Fox's Cunning: This spell might as well be called "+2 Death Attack DC" because that's what it does (and that's all it does)
Illusionary Script: wtf? Usefulness on par with Forgery.
Invisibility: GOLD!
Pass Without Trace / Undetectable Alignment: I guess if you're being scryed?
Spider Climb: Like Jump, it has its uses (usually in the same places)
Level 3
Mostly improvements from levels 1 & 2.
Deep Slumber: You're level 10 by the time you get this, so its usefulness is short-lived
Deeper Darkness: A bigger, better darkness. Woohoo?
False Life: In case you need an extra 10 HP. Useless for assassins, who shouldn't be worrying about HP in the first place.
Magic Circle Against Good: Yeah, I guess if you're an assassin you'll mainly be fighting good guys... Wait, fighting?
Misdirection / Nondetection: Like PWT and Undetectable Alignment, limited use.
Level 4
It's a pity you can choose only 4 of these (kindof).
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Your own personal scrying spell... I've never used it.
Dimension Door: The gold standard in moving around, or just GTFO once you've hit your target
Freedom of Movement: For use underwater, I suppose, or when caught in someone's arms.
Glibness: You can kill someone in front of a crowd and then lie about it! And get away with it! This bluff buff is basically broken, though it only lasts for an hour or so.
Greater Invisibility: GOLD!
Locate Creature: You can use it to find targets, if that's your thing.
Modify Memory: Obliviate! Er, wait... Shouldn't you be killing eye-witnesses, or lying about your (mis)deeds?
Poison: The one GOOD poison. You don't need illegal poisons anymore, you now have an awesome touch attack poison that scales with your Assassin level AND your Wis! (Warning: Induces MAD)
Eh, sarcasm slowly crept in as the levels went up. But seriously, my 10th level assassin would probably have these spells:
1: True Strike, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall, Ghost Sound
2: Alter Self, Fox's Cunning, Invisibility, Spider Climb
3: Deep Slumber, Deeper Darkness, Misdirection, Nondetection
4: Dimdoor, Glibness, Greater Invisibility, Poison
I repeat invisibility because it's that good for the assassin (and having it on 2 different levels allows for other level 2,4 spells to be used).
So for you more experienced players, what's the deal? Are there really good assassin builds? Are there any good assassin builds? Are there any good assassins (in both senses of the word)?