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Ascension
2008-04-29, 02:21 PM
The recent thread on the fact that Knowledge is a trained-only skill reminded me of a pet peeve of mine... Perform isn't.

While this is understandable with Perform (Sing) and Perform (Oratory), it's utterly ludicrous to expect someone to be able to play a guitar or a flute they've never handled before just because they're extremely charismatic.

Granted, I've never seen a player try this, common sense obviously overrules it, and you could tack on some hefty situational penalties, but by RAW it's possible.

That bugs me. That really bugs me.

Sorry, just wanted to get that off my chest.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-29, 02:25 PM
While this is understandable with Perform (Sing) and Perform (Oratory),

It doesn't make much sense for those things, either. Being able to sing well requires practice, and there's more to oratory than being pretty.
:smallwink:

Reel On, Love
2008-04-29, 02:30 PM
What's more, with a 16 CHA and a MW instrument, they can earn 1d10 silver pieces per day by busking and taking 10. Even if they've never played before.

Craig1f
2008-04-29, 02:31 PM
I kind of agree. But keep in mind that you are allowed to attempt knowledge checks with a DC less than 10 untrained.

But you're right. The assumption that a person can't know anything about a subject he hasn't' trained in is ludicrous. A person can glean various knowledge as they grow up, and should be able to make untrained knowledge checks.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-29, 02:31 PM
What's more, with a 16 CHA and a MW instrument, they can earn 1d10 silver pieces per day by busking and taking 10. Even if they've never played before.

That's how the naked cowboy does it. :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2008-04-29, 02:33 PM
Being able to sing well requires practice, and there's more to oratory than being pretty.Sure, but there's a difference between singing and singing well. Anyone can sing, but not just anyone can play a violin. And it's possible for a person to have a pretty nice voice without any training at all, which is presumably what that Cha mod represents.

senrath
2008-04-29, 02:33 PM
It doesn't make much sense for those things, either. Being able to sing well requires practice, and there's more to oratory than being pretty.
:smallwink:

I can sing reasonably well and I've never had any lessons, nor do I practice.

Serenity
2008-04-29, 02:36 PM
Makes plenty of sense with Sing and Oratory. A good Charisma indicates you've got a certain force of personality/are relatively well spoken already, and it doesn't really take much training to sound good when singing if you can put passion behind it and 'sell the song.' Won't get you to Carnegie Hall, but it's hardly automatically bad.

Ascension
2008-04-29, 02:38 PM
At least singing and talking pretty without training is more reasonable than being able to play an instrument without any training whatsoever.

Hmm... I have an 18 CHA... I think I'll play the bassoon today!

One high roll later...

Wow, they like me! They really like me!

Hal
2008-04-29, 02:58 PM
As DM, I would play it off like this:

"You grab your instrument and start playing. Since you've never seen the thing before, you just pluck away at random strings, hoping to make something resembling music. You fail miserably, but the sad look on your face as you try it evokes pity from those that pass by, and you end up with 8 silver pieces in your hat at the end of the day."

Project_Mayhem
2008-04-29, 03:10 PM
As a random thought, it might make sense to allow untrained perform checks only if you have ranks in a different kind of perform. Being Musically trained often lets you get at least somethng out of a random instrument.

Of course this would only work for related schools of performance - awesome lute skills dont help you dance.

Tokiko Mima
2008-04-29, 03:25 PM
What I don't get is why Knowledge (local) is a trained skill. You'd think you'd learn a little bit about where you live, having... ya know... lived there most of your life. :smallamused:

senrath
2008-04-29, 03:27 PM
As a random thought, it might make sense to allow untrained perform checks only if you have ranks in a different kind of perform. Being Musically trained often lets you get at least somethng out of a random instrument.

Of course this would only work for related schools of performance - awesome lute skills dont help you dance.

Not really. I can play various percussion instruments but I'd fail miserably at any wind instrument.

Behold_the_Void
2008-04-29, 03:27 PM
I would point out that even with the more complex instruments, anybody could theoretically screw around with it and, through a bit of experimentation, manage to come up with something that's at least moderately pleasing to the ears. Not to mention if you're entertaining peasants in the street, they won't necessarily be the most discriminating of audiences.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-29, 03:31 PM
As DM, I would play it off like this:

"You grab your instrument and start playing. Since you've never seen the thing before, you just pluck away at random strings, hoping to make something resembling music. You fail miserably, but the sad look on your face as you try it evokes pity from those that pass by, and you end up with 8 silver pieces in your hat at the end of the day."

Two words: William Hung.

Pirate_King
2008-04-29, 04:04 PM
What I don't get is why Knowledge (local) is a trained skill. You'd think you'd learn a little bit about where you live, having... ya know... lived there most of your life. :smallamused:

Eh, I wouldn't overestimate some people to know too much about where they live...

I'd run instrument proficiency like weapon proficiency, if you don't know the instrument, you take a penalty to the check.

Lycar
2008-04-29, 04:23 PM
What I don't get is why Knowledge (local) is a trained skill. You'd think you'd learn a little bit about where you live, having... ya know... lived there most of your life. :smallamused:

Well, you can always take an untrained 10 and know, for example, where the city hall and the market place are.

For the good stuff however... Think of it that way: In most other systems, what Know: Local represents would be called 'Streetwise' or something like that.

You know where to get good prices for goods, especially 'certain' goods, which bars have the best booze etc.

So this also begs the question: Why don't have more classes Knowledge (Local) as a class skill?

And think of all these characters who don't have even a single cross-class rank in it, because 'it does nothing for them' or 'the rogue already has it'.

It is sad that D&D fosters an attitude where skill selection is considered solely in terms of combat effectivnes. :smallannoyed:

So basically, even your 10th level fighter is still like a baby in the woods when it comes to the urban jungle. Pathetic. :smallsigh:

Lycar

Tokiko Mima
2008-04-29, 04:38 PM
Eh, I wouldn't overestimate some people to know too much about where they live...

True! I've asked for directions before. :smalltongue:


Well, you can always take an untrained 10 and know, for example, where the city hall and the market place are.

Yeah, but if circumstances alter the DC even slightly, then trouble is afoot. Like if finding home is DC 10, but it starts raining so you can't see and get a +2 to the DC, then you're stuck wandering at random till the rain stops. Knowledge checks just amuse me. :smallbiggrin:

holywhippet
2008-04-29, 04:59 PM
What I don't get is why Knowledge (local) is a trained skill. You'd think you'd learn a little bit about where you live, having... ya know... lived there most of your life. :smallamused:

Really? How much do you know about the area you live in? Do you know who is on the town/city council (or equivalent)? Do you know who founded it, and when? Are the local parks and schools named after anyone? If so, who?

For untrained perform checks I treat it much the same as being able to take levels in sorcerer/bard. In theory, only people with certain bloodlines can take levels in those classes. But as soon as someone takes levels in that class, a PC/NPC has their family retroactively changed so that they can do it. For perform checks where you have no ranks, you can assume that you were taught how to play at some point but never practiced or learned any songs. So you have just enough skill to play the instrument, but not enough to get any bonuses.

Project_Mayhem
2008-04-29, 05:09 PM
Not really. I can play various percussion instruments but I'd fail miserably at any wind instrument.

As a guitarist and classical pianist, I resent the idea that drums are instuments :smallwink:

Seriously though, if you can play one tuned instrument well, you should be able to passably play similar instruments (i.e. organ/piano and guitar/banjo), and I don't know about everyone else, but after some experimentation, I can at least get a tune out of anything else. And as Behold The Void said, your probably just entertaining peasants and people with not so discerning tastes.

On another topic, I was under the impression that Knowledge (local) was your ability to find out that sort of thing in a completely new location.

Ascension
2008-04-29, 05:15 PM
On another topic, I was under the impression that Knowledge (local) was your ability to find out that sort of thing in a completely new location.

That would be the appropriately named "Gather Information."

I still find it disturbing to think that the peasants in D&D are so lacking in taste they'd pay to hear my sorcerer flailing away at a harp...

Deme
2008-04-29, 05:25 PM
I still find it disturbing to think that the peasants in D&D are so lacking in taste they'd pay to hear my sorcerer flailing away at a harp...


they'll only like it if s/he makes it look like really, really cool flailing. Like rockstar flailing :smallwink:

Kurald Galain
2008-04-29, 05:26 PM
after some experimentation, I can at least get a tune out of anything else.

I think that depends heavily on the instrument. Everybody and their cat can get a note out of a piano and a harp, but getting something out of a trumpet or even a violin isn't something that'll work for you the first time around. Knowing which fingerholes to combine on a flute isn't even all that trivial.

Tokiko Mima
2008-04-29, 05:34 PM
Really? How much do you know about the area you live in? Do you know who is on the town/city council (or equivalent)? Do you know who founded it, and when? Are the local parks and schools named after anyone? If so, who?

For untrained perform checks I treat it much the same as being able to take levels in sorcerer/bard. In theory, only people with certain bloodlines can take levels in those classes. But as soon as someone takes levels in that class, a PC/NPC has their family retroactively changed so that they can do it. For perform checks where you have no ranks, you can assume that you were taught how to play at some point but never practiced or learned any songs. So you have just enough skill to play the instrument, but not enough to get any bonuses.

I actually know the answers to about half those questions. Seeing as they don't count as really easy (those are basic questions, not really easy ones like "What is the name of your town?") that means I must have ranks in Know(local)! :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2008-04-29, 05:50 PM
Seriously though, if you can play one tuned instrument well, you should be able to passably play similar instruments (i.e. organ/piano and guitar/banjo),Well, that's covered by how broad they made the Perform categories. In D&D, you don't have Perform (Piano) or Perform (Organ), you just have Perform (Keyboard instruments), so a D&D character who's good at playing the organ would indeed also be good at playing the piano. I've said before that wind instruments really ought to be split into two categories (there's almost nothing at all in common between the woodwinds and the brasses, besides maybe breath control), but for all the oftener it comes up in game, it's a reasonable sacrifice for the sake of simplicity.

There's also a feat, Versatile Performer, which lets you use ranks in any kind of performance for any other kind of performance, and gives you a small bonus if you use multiple performance forms at once (string instruments and singing, for instance).

senrath
2008-04-29, 06:08 PM
As a guitarist and classical pianist, I resent the idea that drums are instuments :smallwink:

Seriously though, if you can play one tuned instrument well, you should be able to passably play similar instruments (i.e. organ/piano and guitar/banjo), and I don't know about everyone else, but after some experimentation, I can at least get a tune out of anything else. And as Behold The Void said, your probably just entertaining peasants and people with not so discerning tastes.

On another topic, I was under the impression that Knowledge (local) was your ability to find out that sort of thing in a completely new location.

Congratulations, you're a percussionist. Piano was one of the instruments I was referring to. I also was referring to snare, timpani, marimba, and a whole range of other things that don't really take much skill to play at all :P

The Extinguisher
2008-04-29, 06:31 PM
I don't really see any sitution, other than busking, that would require an untrained Perform check that wasn't seriously complicated. Like say the Big Bad forces you to sing his favourite song in Barbershop Quartet or face death.

So most untrained perform will be busking. Have you listened to most buskers.

Hal
2008-04-29, 08:47 PM
There's also a feat, Versatile Performer, which lets you use ranks in any kind of performance for any other kind of performance, and gives you a small bonus if you use multiple performance forms at once (string instruments and singing, for instance).

A bard who plays the one-man-band . . . well, that settles it. I have my next character.

Project_Mayhem
2008-04-30, 04:53 AM
Congratulations, you're a percussionist. Piano was one of the instruments I was referring to. I also was referring to snare, timpani, marimba, and a whole range of other things that don't really take much skill to play at all :P

Thats embarrassing, I totally should have remembered piano was technically percussion. All right you win, I've probably just taken that versatile performer feat.

Although I still have trouble with the stupid flute grumblegrumblegrumble

Bosaxon
2008-04-30, 05:03 AM
I submit there is one instrument ANYONE can play, despite a lack of ranks in perform, and still bring home a lot of silver.


The cowbell....:smallbiggrin:

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-30, 05:39 AM
I can sing reasonably well and I've never had any lessons, nor do I practice.


If you don't practice, how do you know that you sing reasonably well?

senrath
2008-04-30, 05:47 AM
If you don't practice, how do you know that you sing reasonably well?

Because, due to various things at school, etc, I end up singing at least once every couple of months.

RS14
2008-04-30, 06:44 AM
Lets not forget that the average commoner with no ranks in Perform and without even an instrument earns, on average, 97.6 copper per day. Quite a bit more than the one silver per day that untrained laborours earn, isn't it?