Rogue build advice

[MeklorIlavator]

Here's the setup:
Level 9, standard gold+xp
Hp is max at first, either rolled or averaged after that(can't change)
Diplomacy Variant found on these boards, in addition to action points as per Eberron, traits, flaws
Max of three different classes
using max of three books preferred but not required(in this case, the article counts as one book, and core counts as one book).

Right now, my character build is rogue 6/Elemental Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/BvfDDJzx2tyIGOX5zdC.html)
The stats(in no particular order are) 18,13,15,15,15,15
I'm thinking of the Air inflitrator(flight could be very useful in the campaign, its airship based)
How would you make this guy?

[Chronos]

Ooh, interesting PrC. Yeah, that looks like it'd be a nice complement to Rogue. One thing to look out for, though, is that unless you take Earth, your locks-and-traps are going to suffer (though you can still find traps, at least). How relevant is that likely to be in your campaign?

Book recommendations are tricky... The two best things for a rogue to pick up from splatbooks are the Dark template (Tome of Magic) and the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness), but neither of those books has all that much else to offer for a rogue. The options in Complete Scoundrel or Complete Adventurer are individually less useful, but there are a lot more of them.

[MeklorIlavator]

Hmmm, I don't have access to lords of madness, and the dark template wouldn't really fit the character/Prc, so I think Comp Adventurer/Scoundrel will be the way to go. Not sure about the relevancy of that, but it shouldn't be to bad.

Now, what race? Whisper Gnome would probably be best, but its in Races of Stone, so thats another source, though more sources isn't banned, so that could work. Otherwise, Human or Halfling would probably be best. Though I would prefer to keep a 30ft landspeed(for the fly). Choices...

Though this stat breakdown might be good:
str 13
dex 18
con 15
int 15
wis 15
cha 15
Though I could switch dex and int if I use a Dex boosting race. Ability bumps would go in Int and something else, and ideas?

Feats looking like this
Dodge
Weapon Finesse
Combat reflexes

So 1 more feat, two if human.

[Eldariel]

Consider Strongheart Halfling if that's your pick; it has the Human-feat in exchange for slightly worse saves. I'd pick Str over Wis if I were you; Str adds to all your damage-rolls while Wis is just your Will-saves.

[MeklorIlavator]

True, about str and wisdom. Where is the Strongheart halfling? I know about it, but what book?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

True, about str and wisdom. Where is the Strongheart halfling? I know about it, but what book?Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

[SilentNight]

I like the prestige class. Do you want to be a secondary combatant rouge, noncombatant, ranged, what? That changes your selection immensely. For race, you can't really go wrong with Human, If you want to take a dip into psychic warrior that would let you pick up speed of though which raises your speed by 10 feet while psionically focused. If you are on airships then I would suggest picking up a wind fan which will let you knock opponents off of the ship.

[Chronos]

Also don't overlook the possibility of being a goblin. The penalty to Charisma is bad if you plan to be the party face or use UMD a lot, but other than that, they're mostly like the standard halfling, or better. They get a 30' speed despite being small, a better Move Silently bonus (+4, to match their size bonus to Hide), and darkvision (sneaking is a lot easier when you don't have to carry a torch).

[Curmudgeon]

Though this stat breakdown might be good:
str 13
dex 18
con 15
int 15
wis 15
cha 15
Though I could switch dex and int if I use a Dex boosting race. Ability bumps would go in Int and something else, and ideas? INT determines your skill points, and makes the most impact at 1st level. I recommend starting with 18 INT and putting your ability increments in DEX and CON (or maybe WIS) instead to improve your saving throws and HP. This makes a difference of at least 18 skill points. You'll be needing lots of skill points, because you want to use wands as soon as you can, and Use Magic Device is going to cost you 2 points for every rank of Elemental Infiltrator (Air). STR is the best choice for a dump stat.

Feats looking like this
Dodge
Weapon Finesse
Combat reflexes

So 1 more feat, two if human. Except for Weapon Finesse these are only middling (Combat Reflexes) or weak (Dodge) choices. I'd recommend Craven from Champions of Ruin, which gives +1 per character level to your sneak attack damage. As this isn't bonus dice it gets multiplied on criticals -- and a keen rapier threatens on 15-20. Champions of Ruin also includes the splitting enhancement, which is expensive but very worthwhile for missile weapons. Since splitting requires a separate attack roll for each missile (using the same attack bonus) you get to add precision damage each time. Alas, you won't be able to afford this immediately, but you can get your weapon improved when you have the funds. Start saving for that 42,000 gp major upgrade!

Due to your low fly speed I'd recommend a heavy reliance on missile weapons. The Crossbow Sniper feat (Players Handbook II) doubles your sneak attack range and also adds half your DEX bonus to damage. PH2 also has Telling Blow, which lets you add sneak attack damage whenever you make a critical hit -- without any of the usual restrictions imposed by range or concealment.

Feats and skill points are precious to a Rogue, and so I'd recommend going with human as your race. With a missile combat emphasis you can afford to be less robust, so you might choose the following to afford more feats:
Frail flaw: -1 HP/level
Vulnerable flaw: -1 AC
For items, you'll want a crossbow with the quick loading enhancement (Magic Item Compendium) to permit full attacks without worrying about reloading. This is a minimum +2 bonus cost, so figure 8,335 gp for a light +1 crossbow. Buy a keen rapier for melee work. Naturally you'll want the most DEX boost you can afford, so get Gloves of Dexterity. Boots of Speed are great once you've got your fancy crossbow set up, because Haste gives 1 extra attack each full attack (at full AB). Best bang for your gp for armor is a mithral shirt, but you won't be able to benefit from Haste's speed enhancement since the shirt limits you to 30' speed. Bracers of Armor and a Monk's Belt are more expensive options to boost your AC, but you won't suffer speed or armor check penalty problems.

When you get to level 12 I recommend incrementing CHA and taking Skill Focus (Use Magic Device). With max UMD ranks you'll be able to use identified wands with 100% reliability, and activate anything else blindly on a rolled 3 or better.

[Chronos]

Except for Weapon Finesse these are only middling (Combat Reflexes) or weak (Dodge) choices.Those are prerequisites for the prestige class he wants, though. Also note that both of those end up being prereqs for Shadowdancer, too, if you want to take that down the line. Two low-quality feats to qualify for a nifty prestige class is annoying, but three low-quality feats to qualify for two nifty prestige classes isn't so bad.

[MeklorIlavator]

The Combat reflexes and Dodge are needed for the class, and that's the strongest of the choices. The other options were
--Air: Combat Reflexes, Dodge

--Earth: Great Fortitude, Power Attack

--Fire: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint

--Water: Improved Initiative, Iron Will. So I don't think I got that raw of a deal(comparatively).

Craven is good(really good, in fact, I keep hearing about it in rogue threads, but then forget about it later), so I'll defiantly look into it. Telling blow would work as well. And I like the Shadowdancer idea, as HiPS is always good, but I don't want to give up SA progression to do it. Plus, besides HiPS, it doesn't give much that's great.

What about these Feat:
Staggering Strike(Damage based fort save or staggered)
Arterial Strike(-1d6 SA damage, foe loses 1hp per turn, stacks)
Impeding Attack (Trade 3d6 sneak attack damage to apply -2 penalty to opponent's Str checks and Dex checks)
New feat list
Dodge
Weapon Finesse
Combat reflexes
Craven
Telling Blow

Edit: Penetrating strike is a possiblilty as well.

[Chronos]

And I like the Shadowdancer idea, as HiPS is always good, but I don't want to give up SA progression to do it. Plus, besides HiPS, it doesn't give much that's great.Yeah, but you only need to take one level to get HiPS. So basically, since you're taking two of the three required feats anyway, you're trading in one feat and a half a die (on average) of Sneak Attack to get HiPS (plus the usual benefits of Mobility, for all the more that benefits a rogue). Now consider that having HiPS will let you make your Sneak Attacks a heck of a lot more often.

And actually, the prereqs for Water are nicer, since Improved Initiative is pretty good for a rogue. But the abilities you get from Air are better, especially in an airship-themed campaign.

[MeklorIlavator]

And we are strongly discouraged from taking level dips, and only two levels in a class would certainly qualify as a dip.

And about the abilities, alter self can be good.


Edit:Here's the character sheet so far:Zoro Ventus (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=3939)

[Cuddly]

I recommend swashbuckler3/rogue2/swordsage 1/Prestige class X

Feats:
The one that lets swashbuckler count towards rogue levels for sneak attack, and the feat from ToB that allows you to add dex to your damage.

Get weapon finesse, TWF and Imp TWF.

Get Assassin's stance.

What you get for those 6 levels: 3d6 sneak attack (5d6 whenever you use assassin's stance), strength, dexterity (as long as you're in a shadow hand stance), AND intelligence to damage.

If you can find the room for the feats:
Mage Killer, pierce magical protection & pierce magic concealment.
Get a ring of blinking and pump UMD so you can reliably use a wand of wraithstrike.

Unless your opponent has true seeing, you ignore their dex bonus. Due to the feats, you also ignore any magical armor they have up, as well as anything like mirror image. Thanks to wraithstrike, all your attacks are touch attacks, which ignore armor and natural armor bonuses.

Basically, every attack you make will be a sneak attack vs. AC 10. :smallbiggrin:

[edit]
Just saw the no dips thingy. Shucks.
Definitely recommend 3 levels of swashbuckler and putting that 18 in intelligence (mmmm skill points). Then grab the feat from complete scoundrel that lets swash and rogue levels stack for sneak attack dice.

Alternatively, for more versatility, 3 levels in swordsage won't hurt, since from that you can get dex to damage, 2 sneak attack dice, and some cool moves.

Heck, swashbuckler3/swordsage3/PrC X will get you almost the same thing, sneak attack wise. You lose some skill points, gain some BAB.

[editx2]
Wraithstrike is swift cast, so grab wand bracers from... MiC? Eberron? Or burn a feat on quick draw.

[editx3]
Just realized you have to take a bunch of not so cool feats for the PrC. Well, um, just ignore my advice!

[Curmudgeon]

Except for Weapon Finesse these are only middling (Combat Reflexes) or weak (Dodge) choices.

Those are prerequisites for the prestige class he wants, though. Yes, I got that, but it doesn't change the fact that these feats aren't particularly strong. So that's why I suggested being human and taking a couple of flaws to allow for 3 additional feats, so that the build ends up being stronger. I guess I could have been clearer.

Also note that both of those end up being prereqs for Shadowdancer, too, if you want to take that down the line. Two low-quality feats to qualify for a nifty prestige class is annoying, but three low-quality feats to qualify for two nifty prestige classes isn't so bad. Now that's an excellent point. If you're going that route you also have established all the prerequisites for Spring Attack, too. My standard recommendation is that Spring Attack is too expensive for Rogues, except if they're also going for Shadowdancer. Paying for 3 things (2 PrCs and one snazzy feat) makes an expenditure of 4 feats worthwhile. Spring Attack and HiPS is the best possible preparation for a weak character who occasionally needs to enter melee.

[MeklorIlavator]

Well, if Swashbukler gets escape artist as a class skill, it just might work. Of course, dipping remains a problem, though if I use that method the build would likely have to look likethis:
Swah5/EI4, leading on to Swah5/EI10/Rogue 5
If i could swing it,
Swah3/rogue2/EI4
would workm, but 3 levels seems close to a dip, and 2 defiantly is(of course, after completing the PrC, I would be going back to Rogue, so its not so much of a dip).


And if I go with the origonal, I could work in shadowdance, possibly with a bit of reworked flavor. Still, with the origonal build, I'm already breaking the 3-rulebook guidleing, and often just for one item. Still, especially if I take both flaws craven would be justifiable from a IC perspective, whcih is always nice.

[TempusCCK]

Make sure your first level is Rogue, that x4 to skill points is too good to give up. Sign a notarized affadavit if you have too telling him you'll go back into rogue after whatever else you do so it's not a dip, but take rogue first level.

[Chronos]

And if I go with the origonal, I could work in shadowdance, possibly with a bit of reworked flavor. Still, with the origonal build, I'm already breaking the 3-rulebook guidleing, and often just for one item.That's one of the nice things about Shadowdancer for you: It's from Core, so it doesn't count against your number of books.