PDA

View Full Version : Party composition without PHB classes?



Frosty
2008-04-29, 09:51 PM
If you're in a game where none of the PHB classes (except Fighter and Barbarian) nor their variants (such as the Paladin of Freedom found in the UA) are allowed, what class would you join the game as? The game is set at ECL 8, and your potential allies are all single-classed:

Crusader
Warmage
Beguiler

Books allowed:

PHB 1 and 2 (except for the PHB classes as mentioned above)
Races of Destiny
Unearthed Arcana
Tome of Battle
Tome of Magic
Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis
Expanded Psionics Book
Draconomicon
Dragon Magic
Spell Compendium
Drow of the Underdark
All Completes except Complete Psionic

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-29, 09:54 PM
Wu Gen or Psion. Gets some more versatility on the arcanish side, and with psion you could do some limited healing, though the crusader will likely be better. If you really feel the need for a divinist, spirit shaman or favored soul would work, but both can be a bit weak.

cupkeyk
2008-04-29, 09:55 PM
The party needs a divine caster, Shugenja? Or Favored Soul?

senrath
2008-04-29, 09:56 PM
If nothing that Meklor suggested sounds good, you can use a Warlock, since those are always fun.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-29, 10:01 PM
The problem isn't the "No PHB", it's the fact that almost every party role is covered. You have lockdown (Crusader), healing (Crusader), damage (Warmage), skillmonkey (Beguiler), and battlefield control (Beguiler). Now, healing, skillmonkey, and battlefield control could benefit from having someone else taking up the some of the slack, as they are secondary to the classes abilities(especially battlefield control and healing), but there also appears to be no buffer/debuffer. An Artificer could handle all of that, and an Archivist could pick up anything but the skills, but both of those are cheesy, so you may want to look elsewhere. A Favored Soul is probably a good bet, for healing and buff/debuff.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 10:03 PM
Seems like a Gish-slot missing (along with the Wilderness-guy, but that's not really possible without PHB; you need Ranger or Druid for that). I'd go Psi Gish; possibly Erudite (with Spells as Powers - from Mind's Eye) > Slayer (as long as we ignore the stupidities in Erudite's wording preventing you from learning new powers, etc. Other potent option would be Chrono Legionnaireish mobility expert; doesn't kick in quite that early, but is a fully doable melee combatant and blaster and most importantly, a very mobile Gish.

One other good option would be Archivist/Sacred Exorcist (for Turn Undead)/Crusader (or Warblade) Ruby Knight Vindicator; would get you a solid support caster with both, great Arcane and Divine might while getting a valuable second frontliner too. Finally, Artificer 9. Any party is better with an Artificer. Or Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 2. Or maybe Archivist/RSoP.


Really, a Divinish Frontline Caster is what the party wants. Druid would fit all the bills - nature guy, (double) frontline beef, strong divine caster (then again, Druid usually does), but since that's not available, there's a bunch of 'next best things'.

Doing Glass Cannonish damage wouldn't hurt either as someone needs to pick up the slack for the Warmage.

Glyphic
2008-04-29, 10:03 PM
Go Binder; find out what you need to do that day (or guess, or take rapid binding) and bind the apropos Vestige.

Frosty
2008-04-29, 10:35 PM
The problem isn't the "No PHB", it's the fact that almost every party role is covered. You have lockdown (Crusader), healing (Crusader), damage (Warmage), skillmonkey (Beguiler), and battlefield control (Beguiler). Now, healing, skillmonkey, and battlefield control could benefit from having someone else taking up the some of the slack, as they are secondary to the classes abilities(especially battlefield control and healing), but there also appears to be no buffer/debuffer. An Artificer could handle all of that, and an Archivist could pick up anything but the skills, but both of those are cheesy, so you may want to look elsewhere. A Favored Soul is probably a good bet, for healing and buff/debuff.

Actually, Artificer and Archivist are banned as well. After some consideration, the DM said something about ithe 2 being too powerful.


Doing Glass Cannonish damage wouldn't hurt either as someone needs to pick up the slack for the Warmage.

Eldariel, what do you mean by that? Warmage doesn't cut it in the damage department?

Squash Monster
2008-04-29, 10:47 PM
Wu Jen is a really fun class, and definitely would be up there with Wizard as one of the most powerful classes ever if Wizards actually supported all the extra base classes by giving out lists of what new spells should be available to them.

It also gets Solid Fog and such, so really it's one of the best battlefield control options you have available. It'd be my recommendation if you feel that you should be a different class from other party members.

However, you could also just play another Crusader and try to take different maneuvers than the other one. Having similar characters can be lots of fun if you play them as friendly rivals or war buddies.

Frosty
2008-04-29, 10:51 PM
The Beguiler also gets Solid Fog already, and the Warmage has Evard's black Tentacles. The Crusader has a spiked chain. Is this party in need of more control do you think (serious question. no sarcasm here)?

Vortling
2008-04-29, 10:53 PM
In that group I'd look at playing a Swordsage or a Duskblade. The former for scouting-skirmish warrior and the latter for secondary frontline damage dealer and arcane support.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-29, 10:55 PM
I'd play a Factotum, but that's not in the list. Then a Archivist, but that's banned, then a Wu-Gen maybe. Or something else Battlfield controlly.

Frosty
2008-04-29, 11:10 PM
I may be able to help my DM "acquire" Dungeonscape. In your opinion, why would the Factotum fit very well with this party, and what role would it fill?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-29, 11:23 PM
Well the Factotum would be great because:

1) He can take a series of skill different then the Beguiler, granting them both a wider range of things to do.

2) He can serve the purpose of the usual Wizard by pouring points into Knowledges (along with the Beguiler) to make sure everyone gets informed decisions about enemies.

3) He can burst heal to help the Crusader's rather lackluster healing if it's really needed, and UMD assorted wands of Restoration and such.

4) In combat he can serve the purpose of eliminating big threats (through SA shenanigans) or battlefield control with his SLAs/UMD. Get some Staffs, and when worse comes to worse he can be a better Wizard then a Wizard.

5) The rest of the time he can be the all around guy, scouting with the Beguiler (he can emulate HiPS), fighting up front with the Crusader, talking them out of trouble/ect.

Darth Mario
2008-04-29, 11:24 PM
I'm going to second the recommendation of Binder. Any class that allows you to pick your abilities any given day is good in my book, and since your Arcane and Divine roles are covered...

Chronos
2008-04-29, 11:32 PM
Now, healing, skillmonkey, and battlefield control could benefit from having someone else taking up the some of the slack,Without Dungeonscape or core, Beguiler is already the best skillmonkey you're going to find. But Factotum certainly works, if you can get it approved. I notice that you also have Races of Destiny on the allowed list, which means that the ever-classic Factotum/Chameleon combination is a possibility.

Binder would also be a good idea, as others have mentioned, especially since you're starting at level 8, when they get two vestiges at once. Picking one vestige each day is nice, but picking a combo of two vestiges each day is a lot nicer.

Squash Monster
2008-04-29, 11:43 PM
The Beguiler also gets Solid Fog already, and the Warmage has Evard's black Tentacles. The Crusader has a spiked chain. Is this party in need of more control do you think (serious question. no sarcasm here)?You always need more control. But magical control begins its descent into suckage at level 9 when Freedom of Movement becomes available, so if your DM is likely to put Freedom of Movement on lots of things then maybe it's less of a good idea. Wu Jen gets buffs too, but it's really not a buffer class, and your options don't include any really good ones.

So, if your DM is likely to use Freedom of Movement a lot, I have to change my recommendation to a martial controller. There's two kinds of those: lockdown and bullrush. Your Crusader is probably going for a a trip-based lockdown fighter, so go for bullrush.

That'd be Fighter with Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper, and the Dungeon Crasher sub levels (still need to get Dungeonscape). Improved Trip is also nice if you can get it, as it makes Domino Rush (part of Shock Trooper) pretty awesome. If you really want to have crunchy fun with it then play a Raptoran (bullrush into ground) or a Goliath (get Knockback and then get into Bloodstorm Blade so you can apply that to thrown weapons)

Ascension
2008-04-29, 11:43 PM
I might suggest Scout, since you can be "the wilderness guy" without being a ranger or druid. The problem is the best Scout builds involve rogue or ranger (for swift ambusher or swift hunter, the former for sheer damage output, the latter for dealing precision damage to things normally immune), both core.

Scout 20's not bad, persay, but you won't look so good against that party unless you're fairly optimized. And Favored Souls can't turn undead (IIRC), so you can't use a Favored Soul/Scout build to get travel devotion for that particular brand of scout optimization... Maybe a Dread Necromancer/Scout who worships Fla-Flh-Flahonwroh... that travel guy? No, I don't have a single clue how to justify that build in-character.

Aw, heck, just go with someone else's suggestion.

monty
2008-04-29, 11:49 PM
Samurai.extra characters

Frosty
2008-04-29, 11:57 PM
Well the Factotum would be great because:

1) He can take a series of skill different then the Beguiler, granting them both a wider range of things to do.

2) He can serve the purpose of the usual Wizard by pouring points into Knowledges (along with the Beguiler) to make sure everyone gets informed decisions about enemies.

3) He can burst heal to help the Crusader's rather lackluster healing if it's really needed, and UMD assorted wands of Restoration and such.

4) In combat he can serve the purpose of eliminating big threats (through SA shenanigans) or battlefield control with his SLAs/UMD. Get some Staffs, and when worse comes to worse he can be a better Wizard then a Wizard.

5) The rest of the time he can be the all around guy, scouting with the Beguiler (he can emulate HiPS), fighting up front with the Crusader, talking them out of trouble/ect.

I agree with all of that, and by SA you mean Sneak Attack right? Can you spend more than one point at once to get multiple d6s of damage? I agree with the scouting except for one thing: We're starting at level 8, so the Factotum can't exactly emulate class features yet.

If I manage to get both Dungeonscape and Races of Destiny approved, should I go with straight Factotum or go Chameleon, assuming this is the route I wanna go?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-30, 12:11 AM
I agree with all of that, and by SA you mean Sneak Attack right? Can you spend more than one point at once to get multiple d6s of damage? I agree with the scouting except for one thing: We're starting at level 8, so the Factotum can't exactly emulate class features yet.

If I manage to get both Dungeonscape and Races of Destiny approved, should I go with straight Factotum or go Chameleon, assuming this is the route I wanna go?

Either one really, but they are two different characters. One of them is an awesome spellcaster/skillmonkey, the other is a melee master/skill monkey/UMD monster.

Keep in mind that as a Chameleon you don't even need UMD for anything lower then seventh level.

Feats for Factotum: Font of Inspiration X 100 billion
Feats for Chameleon: Able Learner/Metamagic, ect.

Ascension
2008-04-30, 12:19 AM
Feats for Factotum: Font of Inspiration X 100 billion

Seconded into the stratosphere if you're going with Factotum. Factotum by himself: Pretty nifty, but prone to going nova at inappropriate times if you're not careful. Factotum with maxed Font of Inspiration: Awesome at whatever he chooses to be awesome at, when he chooses to be awesome at it, often enough to make a huge contribution to the party.

The only way Factotums with max Font of Inspiration could be better is with 8+INT skill points (I was rather disappointed when I found out they're limited to 6+INT. Be a human.).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-30, 12:24 AM
The only way Factotums with max Font of Inspiration could be better is with 8+INT skill points (I was rather disappointed when I found out they're limited to 6+INT. Be a human.).

Factotums are 4+int unless I miss my guess. And be a Grey Elf, you get the same skill points and +1 to every effect you use Inspiration on.

sonofzeal
2008-04-30, 12:28 AM
Factotums are 4+int unless I miss my guess. And be a Grey Elf, you get the same skill points and +1 to every effect you use Inspiration on.
Nope, it's very definitelly 6+int.

Ascension
2008-04-30, 12:30 AM
Factotums are 4+int unless I miss my guess. And be a Grey Elf, you get the same skill points and +1 to every effect you use Inspiration on.

No, they're 6+INT. 4+INT would be insufferably low for the ultimate skill monkey. And human nets you an extra Font of Inspiration in addition to the skill points.

Frosty
2008-04-30, 12:35 AM
Either one really, but they are two different characters. One of them is an awesome spellcaster/skillmonkey, the other is a melee master/skill monkey/UMD monster.

Keep in mind that as a Chameleon you don't even need UMD for anything lower then seventh level.

Feats for Factotum: Font of Inspiration X 100 billion
Feats for Chameleon: Able Learner/Metamagic, ect.

Can a Chameleon make good use of metamagic? He only gets up to level 6 slots.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-30, 12:43 AM
No, they're 6+INT. 4+INT would be insufferably low for the ultimate skill monkey. And human nets you an extra Font of Inspiration in addition to the skill points.

Except that Font of Inspiration is limited based on your Int modifier, so a human has to stop taking it before a Grey Elf. Not to mention after a certain point the extra +1 on everything you do is worth more then a few more Inspiration points you'll never use except when you want to end an encounter hardcore.

My favorite:

Wand of Fireball, Standard action, Fireball, Standard action, Fireball, repeat until dead. Sometimes everyone just wants the last encounter of the day to be over, and sometimes it is.

Ascension
2008-04-30, 12:46 AM
Except that Font of Inspiration is limited based on your Int modifier, so a human has to stop taking it before a Grey Elf. Not to mention after a certain point the extra +1 on everything you do is worth more then a few more Inspiration points you'll never use except when you want to end an encounter hardcore.

I concede this may be applicable at ECL 8, but at the levels I generally start at (3-5), you need the extra feat now, not three levels down the line. While human is always one of the strongest races, it's more strong the lower level you are, when each individual feat is much more valuable.

Frosty
2008-04-30, 12:49 AM
People actually buy wands of Fireball? I thought those were horribly cost-inefficient?

Ascension
2008-04-30, 01:15 AM
People actually buy wands of Fireball? I thought those were horribly cost-inefficient?

Sometimes you just have to burn something, cost be hanged. :smallbiggrin:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-30, 02:16 AM
I may be able to help my DM "acquire" Dungeonscape-

Stop right there, criminal scum! Nobody breaks the law on my watch! I'm confiscating your stolen goods; now pay the fine, or go to jail.

Ahem.

Anyway, it is eminently a good idea to be a human factotum; at low levels, you appreciate extra FoIs more.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-30, 02:37 AM
Stop right there, criminal scum! Nobody breaks the law on my watch! I'm confiscating your stolen goods; now pay the fine, or go to jail.

Is this Morrowind?

Eldariel
2008-04-30, 05:54 AM
Eldariel, what do you mean by that? Warmage doesn't cut it in the damage department?

Unless Arcane Thesised, you'll generally want a martial damage dealer later on. Of course, Crusader can do that, but that's putting a damn lot pressure onto the Crusader being the healer, the defender and the damage. What you need to do is ease the load on the Crusader.


And yes, Factotum is a fine idea. Or a Psion of some kind. Scout isn't good without Ranger; not only is the damage it deals very specific (doesn't work against most types), it's rather low compared to Sneak Attack and he doesn't get Wild Empathy and needs to burn a feat on Track. Also, he doesn't get UMD so he can't fill the holes in the party. You really want a character with UMD or just simple healing. Factotum/Chameleon, the Do-It-All is definitely a great option. As said, Psi Gish is another decent option. Psionics has some healing, and a Psi Gish could easily stand in the frontline right alongside the Crusader and be a very decent damage dealer. I trust the Beguiler maxes UMD?

Really though, the party really wants another frontliner. A second Crusader with different focus (if the other is defense, you can be the damage, and the other way around) wouldn't be a horrible idea either. Beguiler could handle out of combat-healing, you could split the skills with Beguiler doing the Roguish stuff and you doing the diplomatic crap, etc.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-30, 07:36 AM
You could go for the "old school" factotum...

Human Marshal/Chameleon.. But I'm not sure if Marshal is allowed. You'd fill in as the "face" for the group.... and you can have just about any class feature you want.

Reinboom
2008-04-30, 07:54 AM
I've been toying with seeing what would happen if I chose these almost exact class limitations.
That is, ban core classes, ban archivist, ban artificer.

In my current campaign, I banned Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Archivist, as well as all large setting material (eberron, forgotten realms).
The party currently consists of:

Spirit Shaman

"Sha'ir" (that is now changing classes to a custom hybrid of the sha'ir and spirit shaman for arcane spells.. since.. we discovered you can be VERY easily screwed over by being a sha'ir. Worse than monk screwed over)

Factotum

Dragon Shaman that has been heavily modified (has spellcasting, slightly weaker physically)

Bard


--
The only non'caster' is the factotum, and even that dabbles in casting.
It's a strange party. Works well though. Summons tank. :smalltongue:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-30, 08:40 AM
If I had to pick a class, I'd also recommend Factotum, Binder, Swordsage, or Psywar, the last one using the Psionic Prodigy feat you can find online and the first one using the online FoI. They're JUST THAT good.


Offtopic:

Sweetrein: If you're looking for the ultimate party, I think I can help you there.

Now, I tend to run games with good optimization going around, both for players and monsters, so this might be too much. In any case, if I had to pick classes for filling roles, it'd be this:

Frontliner: Swordsage or Crusader. The Crusader is obvious. The swordie, well...Yeah, you lack the HP. So what? The enemy is going to die, QUICK, if you get it. And if you use the "1's as -10's and 20's as 30's" variant, you're essentially unhittable.

Skillmonkey: Factotum with FoI. Full stop. Best at it, by a longshot.

Arcanist: Hmm...tougher one. Either a warlock (low power) or Binder (Higher power). You'd be at about the level of the others.

Divine caster: Shugenja or Favored soul. Both are excellent.

Hope that helps.


Chosen: It really doesn't matter if you're a grey elf, and it's better if you're a human. It doesn't say BASE intelligence modifier, so you can use items to boost your score. And an extra feat means an extra 8 points. So yeah, grey elf sucks for a Factotum.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-30, 09:59 AM
Chosen: It really doesn't matter if you're a grey elf, and it's better if you're a human. It doesn't say BASE intelligence modifier, so you can use items to boost your score. And an extra feat means an extra 8 points. So yeah, grey elf sucks for a Factotum.

Except that: 18 + 2 levels + 4 for item equals 7 times: Unless you genuinely think you are going to have a +6 item at level 11, you aren't going to be able to take it. I'd much rather have exactly the same number of FoIs but with and Int modifier 1 higher.

lvl 1/Human/Flaw/Flaw/lvl 3/lvl 6/lvl 9/lvl 12/lvl 15

Frosty
2008-04-30, 10:24 AM
Is the Factotum supposed to take Font of whatever for EVERY single one of his feats? :smalleek: It must reek of gouda for it to beat every other feat out.

Do you guys think the other party members made good choices within these restrictions? Or would you say ideally the warmage might be replaced with a Warblade or Swordsage (for more damage) and the Beguiler replaced with the Factotum (but then what would fit the 4th slot?)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-30, 10:54 AM
Chosen: Helloooooo, Tome!

Frosty: You get extra Inspiration points, the lifeblood of the 'Totum. A single inspiration point lets you add your level as damage, another one your level to AB. For FOUR points, you get an extra standard action. See why it's good?

On the warmage subject: Yeah, it's out. Much better to have a Swordsage, or, to a lesser extent, warblade.

As for the fourth slot, I'd recommend a favored soul. It's at about the same power level. Failing that, a Shugenja.

Chronos
2008-04-30, 12:11 PM
Is the Factotum supposed to take Font of whatever for EVERY single one of his feats? It must reek of gouda for it to beat every other feat out.The other thing with Font of Inspiration is that the benefits increase with the number of times you take it. If you only take it once, you get one point of inspiration, which is a waste of a feat. If you take it seven times, though, you get 28 points of inspiration, which is (for example) an extra 7 standard actions per encounter. So you want to take it either as much as you possibly can, or not at all.

One other point: You want to be absolutely certain to have someone who can use wands or scrolls of (lesser, greater) Restoration, Break Enchantment, Remove Poison, Remove Disease, a dead-bringer-backer, etc. The crusader can heal HP damage, but I don't think he can deal with status afflictions, which means that you're entirely dependendant on the Beguiler's UMD (which I assume he's maxing) for that. As it is right now, if the Beguiler gets Feebleminded (or petrified, or level drained, or killed, or whatever), you're screwed. This probably means having someone else with UMD (like the factotum), but could also mean someone with access to those spells honestly.

Talya
2008-04-30, 12:25 PM
Sometimes you just have to burn something, cost be hanged. :smallbiggrin:


By that standard, a wand of fiery fireball (Fiery Spell being a +1 metamagic, that adds +1 fire damage per die of damage the spell does) is probably worth it, to do 7d6+7 rather than 5d6.

Frosty
2008-04-30, 12:28 PM
The Beguiler will indeed max UMD. She'll be the face of the party I think, having ok charisma and having maxed out Diplomancy, Sense Motive, bluff and cross-classed 5 ranks into Knowledge (Nobility).

If I go Chameleon, then I can definitely cast Break Enchantment and stuff, since I'll have access to both divine and arcane. But we're only level 8, and I won't get access to high level spells for a while.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-30, 12:33 PM
Personally, I prefer full Factotum, really. Except for divine casting and throwing MANY arcane spells (Note: You can STILL throw spells, just a few), you can do everything a chameleon does, but better. And without overshadowing the other PC's.

Chronos
2008-04-30, 12:46 PM
If I go Chameleon, then I can definitely cast Break Enchantment and stuff, since I'll have access to both divine and arcane. But we're only level 8, and I won't get access to high level spells for a while.That's OK... Most of those spells are best on scrolls, anyway, and a first-level Chameleon can use scrolls without even needing a UMD check (though you might need to have the appropriate focus active).

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-30, 12:46 PM
Is this Morrowind?

Indeedy.itty bitty baby

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-30, 01:28 PM
Chosen: Helloooooo, Tome!

How is the argument that you won't be able to afford a +6 item at level 11 countered by saying that you can buy a more expensive Tomb that you also can't afford?

Frosty
2008-04-30, 01:30 PM
Tome, CoV, not Tomb.

Triaxx
2008-04-30, 01:31 PM
Me, I'd convince him to let me use my homebrew class.


Cavalier

Alignment: Any Lawful.

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: The Cavalier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int) Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st level: (2 + Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each additional Level: 2 + Int Modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+1|
+0|
+0|Lay on Hands, Aura of Law 1/day
2nd|
+2|
+2|
+0|
+0|Knightly Grace, Bonus Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Smite Foe 1/day
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Improved Shield Bash
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Dodge
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat, Smite Foe 2/day
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Aura of Law 2/day
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Noble Mount 1st-Tier
9th|
+9/+4|
+7|
+2|
+2|Smite Foe 3/day
10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+8|
+3|
+3|Ride-by Attack
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+3|
+3|Smite Foe 4/day
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+9|
+3|
+3|Cleric Domain-1st, Lance Knight
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat, Noble Mount 2nd-Tier, Aura of Law 3/day
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+10|
+4|
+4|Smite Foe 5/day
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+4|
+4|Combat Reflexes
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+11|
+4|
+4|Cleric Domain-2nd
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Smite Foe 6/day
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+12|
+5|
+5|Cleric Domain-3rd
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+13|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Noble Mount 3rd-Tier[/table]

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Cavaliers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Lay on Hands: As per the Paladin ability.

Aura of Law: Aura of Law is a Cavalier's final defense. Used when foes close in around him the Cavalier summons his knowledge of right and law, and projects a feeling of defenslessness and clumsiness against neutral and chaotic foes. Neutral foes take a -1 penalty to AC and BAB, while Chaotic Foes take a -2 penalty to AC and BAB. This effect lasts for 1 round per Cavalier level. The aura can be resisted by a (DC10 + Cavalier level + Cavalier's CHA mod) Will save. A Cavalier may use Aura of Law once per day at first level, and gains additional uses every seven levels.

Mounted Combat: The Cavalier is treated as always having the mounted combat feat.

Smite Foe: As per the Smite Evil ability, but only against Chaotic or Neutral Foes. A Cavalier gains one use at third level, and an additional use every three levels there after.

Knightly Grace: At 2nd level, a Cavalier has been trained to fight on horseback, and when mounted on a horse or pony gains a +2 competence bonus when attempting to control an untrained animal. When mounted on a warhorse, or warpony, the Cavalier gains a +1 bonus to mounted melee attacks.

Bonus Feat: A Cavalier is granted bonus feat in addition to those she normally receives. Bonus feats may be selected from the fighter bonus feat list.

Improved Shield Bash: At 4th level Cavalier is treated as having the Improved Shield Bash feat while mounted, even if he or she does not meet the requirements.

Dodge: From 5th level on, when mounted a Cavalier is treated as having the dodge feat even if he or she does not meet the requirements for it.

Cleric Domain: A Cavalier, while not necessarily a religious warrior is looked upon with favor by his or her god. At 13th level, a Cavalier may choose one of his or her gods domain's, and use the first level domain power as a Cleric of one quarter the Cavalier's level. At 17th level, the Cavalier gains the second level domain power, as a cleric of one quarter Cavalier level, and at 1th, gains a third level domain power, as a cleric one-quarter of the Cavalier's level. Cavaliers cast based on CHA as Sorcerors, Bards, and Paladins.

Ride-by Attack: At 11th level, if not taken before the Cavalier gains Ride-by Attack while mounted, even he or she does not otherwise qualify.

Combat Reflexes: If he has not taken it at an earlier level, at 16th level, the Cavalier is treated as having Combat Reflexes.

Lance Knight: At 13th level, the Cavalier has become a master of mounted combat, and as such is able to deal double damage when charging mounted wielding with a Sword, or Axe and Shield. Charging with a lance deals triple damage instead. The Cavalier's BAB, and chance to hit rolls are unaffected. The Cavalier also is able to disregard the -2 AC penalty while charging mounted.

Noble Steed: At 8th Level, a Cavalier may spend 1d4 days familiarizing himself with a particular mount, and bind himself to it. In doing so, it becomes a first tier mount. At level 14, it becomes a second tier mount, and at level 20, it becomes a third tier mount. While mounted on his Noble Mount, the Cavalier gains a +1 to his Reflex and Will saves.

If the Cavalier's Noble Steed is killed, it takes a year and a day to become familiar enough with another mount to replace it. Upon the steeds death, the Cavalier loses 200xp per level, with a fort save for half. In addition, the Cavalier must make a fort save, or be treated as having one half his total ride skill until he gains another Steed. Making the fort save reduces the penalty to three-quarters his ride skill. If the Cavalier's Steed is resurrected, the penalty to his ride skill is negated.


Noble Steed
{table=head]Tier|HD|Natural <br> Armor|Str. Adj.|Special
1st|
+2|
+2|
+1|Improved Mounted Combat, DR5/Silver
2nd|
+4|
+4|
+2|Shield Mount
3rd|
+6|
+6|
+4|Mounted Archery, DR10/Silver[/table]


Shield Mount:While mounted on his Noble Steed, the steed gains the Cavalier's Shield Bonus to it's AC against melee attacks.


Early on it gives additional healing like a paladin, and he can front line without problem. Later on he gets useful tricks from cleric domains. And in a surface campaign, his horse is very nice.

Of course, without homebrew Factotum is nice.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-30, 01:34 PM
That's OK... Most of those spells are best on scrolls, anyway, and a first-level Chameleon can use scrolls without even needing a UMD check (though you might need to have the appropriate focus active).

A Chameleon is the glue that holds a party together. :)

Frosty
2008-04-30, 01:36 PM
Personally, I prefer full Factotum, really. Except for divine casting and throwing MANY arcane spells (Note: You can STILL throw spells, just a few), you can do everything a chameleon does, but better. And without overshadowing the other PC's.

How does a Chameleon overshadow others?

Chronos
2008-04-30, 01:47 PM
[b]Triaxx[b], that class is just plain bizzare. First of all, what's with the weird saving throw progression? Second, what exactly is a "second level domain power"? Domains only have one granted power each, and they're granted at first level. Third, everyone deals double damage when charging with a lance... What's so special about the Lance Knight ability? Fourth, what feats is he allowed to pick from for his bonus feat? Fifth, why the peculiar choice of alignments for Smite Foe? He can smite Chaotic Evil, or Neutral, but not Neutral Evil? Sixth, why would any Cavalier want to use the Noble Steed ability? About all it does for him is add a penalty when it inevitably gets killed, since it's so frail.

Draz74
2008-04-30, 01:54 PM
I love the Factotum, but I don't think it's particularly needed in this party. The Beguiler should cover that role fine. If you do go Factotum, contrary to popular belief, you can be a lot more interesting and still pretty strong without touching the cheese that is Font of Inspiration. You won't be as strong, for sure, and you'll have to actually have the self-control to ration your resources and the wit to improvise your actions from round to round instead of following a formula; but you can still be quite useful.

Awwww. My first two choices to join this party are in not-allowed books. :smallfrown: I was going to suggest Ardent (like a Cleric, but with psionics rules, and not broken, and more thematic), followed by Totemist (another non-core option for the Nature role, good tank and reasonable backup healer/stealth type).

Well, with no Incarnum or Complete Psionic allowed, I'm going to add my vote to the "Psion" crowd. Egoist if you want another healer on the team; Nomad could also be pretty flavorful in this party (you don't seem to have anyone very acrobatic yet).

Frosty
2008-04-30, 02:01 PM
I personally don't have the psionic books, even though it's allowed, so I'm not sure how comfy I am with creating one to be honest. I guess I can look into it...

Draz74
2008-04-30, 02:08 PM
I personally don't have the psionic books, even though it's allowed, so I'm not sure how comfy I am with creating one to be honest. I guess I can look into it...

Most of the XPH (including everything you'll need) is in the SRD.

Triaxx
2008-04-30, 05:32 PM
[b]Triaxx[b], that class is just plain bizzare. First of all, what's with the weird saving throw progression? Second, what exactly is a "second level domain power"? Domains only have one granted power each, and they're granted at first level. Third, everyone deals double damage when charging with a lance... What's so special about the Lance Knight ability? Fourth, what feats is he allowed to pick from for his bonus feat? Fifth, why the peculiar choice of alignments for Smite Foe? He can smite Chaotic Evil, or Neutral, but not Neutral Evil? Sixth, why would any Cavalier want to use the Noble Steed ability? About all it does for him is add a penalty when it inevitably gets killed, since it's so frail.


1)The saves are intentional. He looses the two points in will and reflex for the gain in Fort. He's not supposed to remain in place for the wizard to draw a bead anyway.

2)The domains thing actually needs re-writing. It's DM choice whether he gets three spell levels of one domain, or three seperate domains.

3)Lance Knight is old, it was supposed to double again. It got reworded to triple and never updated appearently.

4)Another thing that didn't get updated. He picks from the fighter list.

5)Not quite, he can smite NG, NG, LN, NN, NC, NE, and CE.

6)Because it grants Additional abilities to the horse he's already been riding. It also makes the horse stronger. It's designed primarily for surface campaigns anyway.

Chronos
2008-04-30, 06:03 PM
1)The saves are intentional. He looses the two points in will and reflex for the gain in Fort.
Then he needs a class feature to say that, if you really want him to be different from normal classes for some reason. But that still doesn't explain why his Fort is lower than normal at level 1.

2)The domains thing actually needs re-writing. It's DM choice whether he gets three spell levels of one domain, or three seperate domains.
Wait, so does he get spells or domain powers? And if spells, how many per day? Per domain, or total? What ability score is his spellcasting based on?

6)Because it grants Additional abilities to the horse he's already been riding. It also makes the horse stronger. It's designed primarily for surface campaigns anyway.
Does it grant abilities to the horse, or to him? It's not clear from your presentation. And what do all of those abilities do? The ones which are already defined in the game aren't nearly enough to keep the horse from dying on the first round of any combat this guy gets into, so unless the new abilities you created are absolutely awesome, the only effect it's going to have is that the cavalier will essentially always have a stiff penalty to his Ride score and XP.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-30, 06:10 PM
How does a Chameleon overshadow others?

Well, a chameleon is a castrated mystic theurge. If you play him a la batman, he's more powerful than factotum, since he has more spells. If you play him in a weak fashion, he's weaker since he doesn't have a fallback if he's using both the divine and arcane focus.

Frosty
2008-04-30, 06:15 PM
umm, if the Chameleon is a castrated MT, and MT is widely considered to be weak, then isn't the Chameleon also very weak?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-30, 06:19 PM
Nope. MT is considered weak against a wizard or cleric with ninth level spells. It's still insanely powerful, even with the existing caveat of only one spell per round.

But Factotum solves that problem. Just four IP and you get an extra spell. And at level 6, you still get most of the gross spells, like Slow, Solid Fog, or enervation. Thus, the bad part of MT is mostly eliminated, while retaining most of the good stuff, which makes the chameleon nasty.

Triaxx
2008-04-30, 06:24 PM
Then he needs a class feature to say that, if you really want him to be different from normal classes for some reason. But that still doesn't explain why his Fort is lower than normal at level 1.

Wait, so does he get spells or domain powers? And if spells, how many per day? Per domain, or total? What ability score is his spellcasting based on?

Does it grant abilities to the horse, or to him? It's not clear from your presentation. And what do all of those abilities do? The ones which are already defined in the game aren't nearly enough to keep the horse from dying on the first round of any combat this guy gets into, so unless the new abilities you created are absolutely awesome, the only effect it's going to have is that the cavalier will essentially always have a stiff penalty to his Ride score and XP.

1)Corrected in the later version.

2)He gains domains, spells, and the associated powers. Each domain is one spell level, and if he chooses the same domain each time, he gains another spell level. If not he get's first level in the new domain. CHA is his casting stat which is supposed to be mentioned, but isn't. And one/day/level, same as a cleric.

3)The horse gets the NA,STR,HD and DR. The Cav gains benefits of the Feats. I was looking for power for the horse without over doing the Paladin.

Additionally Shield Mount adds his shield bonus to the mount's armor class against Melee attacks.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-30, 06:33 PM
That's OK... Most of those spells are best on scrolls, anyway, and a first-level Chameleon can use scrolls without even needing a UMD check (though you might need to have the appropriate focus active).
Curiously, the Chameleon has no class spell list. Seriously. What the chameleon has is the ability to prepare and cast spells on any class' spell list. Fine distinction, but technically there. You still need UMD. Technically.

Edit:
As for what to play?

Eh, whatever. It doesn't matter too much - the basic roles are all covered. The Crusader can heal and tank, the warmage can zap away at range, and the beguiler can deal with traps and locks quite handily, and has UMD for working with scrolls and wands. Play something you'll find fun.

Frosty
2008-04-30, 07:05 PM
So technically they need UMD. But I think that really goes against the spirit and possibly the intent of the class. what do you think Jack?

Jack_Simth
2008-04-30, 07:21 PM
So technically they need UMD. But I think that really goes against the spirit and possibly the intent of the class. what do you think Jack?
As I don't think they're supposed to be able to use all wands/scrolls/staves with no roll, I suspect it's a good idea to require the UMD check. Besides - they're not supposed to be as good at it as the specialists (although, at PrC level 6+, character level 11+, they've got a better caster level than the pure casters, and can use that to pull off some nifty tricks...).

Eldariel
2008-04-30, 07:43 PM
They'll catch up to pure casters on level 10 caster level-wise, provided that you enter ASAP and stick out with Chameleon. Spellwise, they'll never get there.

Scrolls are a bit tougher, but with Knowledge, Spellcraft and Decipher Script all giving synergy to that, you can read level 9 scrolls without roll once you get to 28. That means 20 from ranks+cha (purely ranks on level 17 (the level you'd normally start casting 9th level spells on), with any charisma bonus, much earlier - the 8 points come from 6 points of synergy and a Masterwork Focus of some sort; Masterwork Tool gives +2 Competence). Bottomline, Scrolls and Wands are going to succeed regardless of whether you roll or not as long as you max out UMD.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-30, 08:02 PM
They'll catch up to pure casters on level 10 caster level-wise, provided that you enter ASAP and stick out with Chameleon. Spellwise, they'll never get there.

Scrolls are a bit tougher, but with Knowledge, Spellcraft and Decipher Script all giving synergy to that, you can read level 9 scrolls without roll once you get to 28. That means 20 from ranks+cha (purely ranks on level 17 (the level you'd normally start casting 9th level spells on), with any charisma bonus, much earlier - the 8 points come from 6 points of synergy and a Masterwork Focus of some sort; Masterwork Tool gives +2 Competence). Bottomline, Scrolls and Wands are going to succeed regardless of whether you roll or not as long as you max out UMD.
Umm... the Activate a Scroll DC for Use Magic Device is DC 20 + Caster Level. So a 9th level spell (caster level 17) is DC 37. As you can't take 10 on UMD, that means you need a modifier of +36, not +28. You're eight points short of no-roll use (without something akin to the Warlock's Deceive Item ability that lets you take 10 on UMD checks).

Eldariel
2008-04-30, 08:09 PM
Oh yea, caster level. That changes it; since you can't have 9th level spells on your list anyways, you'll have to just make the check. Once per day, you can use Factotum-abilities to do it though. Oh well, that does put a damper on things.

Chronos
2008-04-30, 08:19 PM
Curiously, the Chameleon has no class spell list. Seriously. What the chameleon has is the ability to prepare and cast spells on any class' spell list. Fine distinction, but technically there. You still need UMD. Technically.Hm, you may be right. Chameleons are weird that way.

MammonAzrael
2008-04-30, 09:31 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but Dragonfire Adepts are pretty dang shiny when it comes to battlefield controlling...

Chronos
2008-04-30, 09:55 PM
Actually, on thinking about it some more, I think that Chameleons do in fact have a (very broad) spell list. Their spellcasting ability is similar to that of an Archivist, and I don't think that anyone would argue that an Archivist (who doesn't get Use Magic Device as a class skill) can't cast spells from scrolls.

AslanCross
2008-04-30, 10:05 PM
For a 4-man party, I'd have:

-Warblade or Crusader.
-Warlock, most likely a crafting specialist.
-Factotum
-Archivist.

If I were to have a fifth member, it would probably be either a Beguiler or a Swordsage specializing in stealth.

Frosty
2008-04-30, 11:06 PM
I althought thought Warlocks are considered weak?

Hunter Noventa
2008-05-01, 09:08 AM
I althought thought Warlocks are considered weak?

They're weak if you try to play them as a primary arcanist, in place of say, a Wizard. In reality they're a very decent archer-type with a selection of utility abilities. And they can UMD like mad.

As for my suggestion, normally I'd pull out ToB Cheese. But I've been in love with the Spellthief lately. Esepcially since at the level you're starting you get to start with Steal Spell Like Ability. Meaning you can poke your factotum and cast his spells, and he only loses the spell until he casts it, from how I read the rules.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 10:20 AM
They're weak if you try to play them as a primary arcanist, in place of say, a Wizard. In reality they're a very decent archer-type with a selection of utility abilities. And they can UMD like mad.

As for my suggestion, normally I'd pull out ToB Cheese. But I've been in love with the Spellthief lately. Esepcially since at the level you're starting you get to start with Steal Spell Like Ability. Meaning you can poke your factotum and cast his spells, and he only loses the spell until he casts it, from how I read the rules.

Hey, ToB is NOT cheese :p And besides, there is no factotum in the group unless I'm the factotum.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 01:36 PM
Actually, I think I'll go with a Warblade and probably focus on White Raven and Iron Heart. Charging is good. Stunning is good. WRT...awesome. The Crusader and I can use White Raven Tactics on each other or something.

Chronos
2008-05-01, 02:00 PM
By the way, I've been wondering why the odd restrictions on classes. It seems odd to me to allow fighter and barbarian, but not ranger or paladin, for example. Wizard I can see being ruled out because it's too powerful, but then why ban monk?

Frosty
2008-05-01, 03:11 PM
I guess he just wants something different for a change. Maybe he hasn't had any fighters or barbarians in a long time, or he recognizes that a dip into Fighter is a part of many builds. I dunno. He probably banned Monk for being too weak.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-05-01, 04:02 PM
Despite all those bans, it sounds like fun to me. I'd love to run a game like that in the fall... But one of my friends sticks to Core, convinced anything else is cheesy... Even after I played a Clericzilla in a game with him to show just how broken core can really be...

Draz74
2008-05-01, 06:34 PM
Despite all those bans, it sounds like fun to me. I'd love to run a game like that in the fall... But one of my friends sticks to Core, convinced anything else is cheesy... Even after I played a Clericzilla in a game with him to show just how broken core can really be...

I feel for you. :smallfrown: I'm about to go start a new character with my DM ... it's a Save-or-Suck-based Wizard. So maybe it will show my DM that Core is plenty unbalanced.

Probably not, though, because I can't help restraining myself so as not to break the game. I'm deliberately sub-optimal in some areas. Curse my conscience!

(Although, if I did break the game, this DM wouldn't be too afraid of breaking the RAW to nerf me. He insists, for example, that Gate isn't really all that broken, because if you tried to make an Efreet give you Wishes, the spell's duration would probably run out while you argued with the Efreet about why it should.)

UserClone
2008-05-01, 08:23 PM
Be careful with these suggestions. Factotum does indeed need a UMD check to use anything a Rogue would, because Arcane Dilettante provides SLAs, not spells. If you are incapable of spellcasting, you don't really have a spell list. Also, IIRC, you have to have a spellbook to use your Chameleon spells, but you don't automatically have anything in it, or learn new spells, like a Wizard. So you'll have to use whatever the DM gives/sells you. I personally favor Binder 1 (for Naberius)/Warlock into all 3 levels of Hellfire warlock for sick damage w/o any real risk. I would even do this over the Warmage, but that's just me. Wu Jen is pretty sweet. I'd go with the Duskblade myself, or a Warblade.

FMArthur
2008-05-01, 08:50 PM
Also, IIRC, you have to have a spellbook to use your Chameleon spells, but you don't automatically have anything in it, or learn new spells, like a Wizard.

But the versatility of being able to cast whatever spell you can write down (of appropriate level, of course) should not go unnoticed. Honestly, every DM I've used Chameleon under has let me use my WBL to buy a spellbook and spells, and spend time in town to buy new ones. So if you have access to cities of decent enough size, you should be able to get what you need and not have to worry about limits. Also, with Scribe Scroll as a normal feat, you can (ab)use the changeable bonus feat to get a different Extra Spell a day and write it into your spellbook, in the absense of a city capable of supplying you with 6th level spells and under.