View Full Version : Paragon (simplest version ever?)

2008-04-29, 10:34 PM
BAB: +3
Feats: Any two of the following: Skill Focus (any), Spell Focus (any), Weapon Focus (any), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes.
Skills: Any two skills 7 ranks.
HD: d8
Skill Points: 4 + Int mod
Class Skills: A paragon treats all skills as class skills.
1st|+0|+2|+2|+2|Ability boost (+2), synergy
2nd|+1|+3|+3|+3|Bonus feat
3rd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Ability boost (+2)
4th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Bonus feat
5th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Ability boost (+2)
6th|+3|+5|+5|+5|Bonus feat
7th|+4|+5|+5|+5|Ability boost (+2)
8th|+5|+6|+6|+6|Bonus feat
9th|+6|+6|+6|+6|Ability boost (+2)
10th|+7|+7|+7|+7|Bonus feat
Proficiencies: A paragon gains proficiency with all simple weapons.
Ability Boost: At 1st level a paragon gains a +2 ability boost to any ability score they select. They gain an additional ability boost at 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level. Each time one of these boosts are gained, they cannot adjust the same ability score the last boost aquired did.
This ability boosts are gained as if through level adjustment.
Synergy: A paragon’s class levels stack with any other levels in any other class a paragon may have for the purpose of determining caster level, effective level, or effective DCs of abilities the paragon may have gained in another class. This does not actually advance the abilities' uses per day or anything else gained via level advancement other than the numerical "effective level."
Bonus Feats: A paragon gains a bonus feat at 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th). This bonus feat can be any feat the paragon does not already possess so long as they meet the prerequisites for it.

2008-04-30, 12:10 AM
This smells a little overpowered. If my thoughts are correct, doesn't this mean that with a lucky die roll a character could have, say, an ability score of 31 at 14th level? With no actual suppressible magic involved?

brian c
2008-04-30, 12:48 AM
This smells a little overpowered. If my thoughts are correct, doesn't this mean that with a lucky die roll a character could have, say, an ability score of 31 at 14th level? With no actual suppressible magic involved?

Well, say you're a melee-type who starts with 18 Str, and you have full BAB. The 7 ranks requirement means that your first level in Paragon can be 5th. At 13th level (total) you're a 9th level Paragon and have gotten +10 combined inherent ability boosts, so that could put you at 28 Str, plus at 4th, 8th and 12th levels you boost it for a 31 at 13th level.

It could be slightly overpowered, but for two things
1) It's just ability scores and feats. Basically it's Fighter plus ability boosts, but with better saves and
2) only d8 HD.
3) no spellcasting, however a caster could use a one-level dip for +2 to their primary stat, good hit die, and +1 caster level.

2008-04-30, 01:05 AM
The only potentially breakable thing I can see is a Warlock using it to superboost his charisma and make saving versus his invocations nearly impossible.

2008-04-30, 03:44 PM
Yeah I saw the potential for a super ability score in this class. I didn't think much of it since a person loses 10 levels just for feats and ability boosts.

I don't really know how Warlocks or invocations work. I'm only used to Psionics and traditional casting (even them I'm sketchy with psionics).

Since the class is so generic level dipping doesn't seem to be a problem. A warrior type taking 1 level of it to get good saves would lose out on some HP and a point in BAB, a caster type dipping in it would lose 1 level of spellcasting (but not a caster level) and a BAB, and a rogue-type would miss out on skill points and BAB.

My only real concern is would anyone take this class? Or is it too flavorless to be desired?

2008-04-30, 10:52 PM
The Fighter test: any fighter would be stupid not to take this class. Use one ability boost for con and you have made up the lower HD.

A Psionic warrior might want to take the class as well. A level 4 Psi Warrior with 10 levels of this class vs a level 14 Psi Warrior:

Burn the +10 stat on Wisdom, say.

15 PsiWar: +10 powers (level 2 through 5). +22.5 PP

5 Psi/10 Para: +1 feat, +5 DC on all abilities, +2.5 BaB, +3.67 Reflex/Will save

20 PsiWar vs 10/10 Psi/Para:
PsiWar: +10 powers (4 through 6), +50 PP
Para/Psi: +1 feat, +5 DC on all abilities, +2.5 BaB, +3.67 Reflex/Will

That isn't quite worth it, still.


Wonder if there would be a way to make this class work better with "list classes" and worse with "brawl classes"?

What if you did some kind of ultimate magus class feature boost thing? But make it generic?


ClassA ClassB Other
1 +2 attribute
2 +1
3 +1 +1
4 +1 +1
5 +1 +2 attribute
6 +1 +2 attribute
7 +1 +1
8 +1 +1
9 +1 +2 attribute
10 +1 +1
Tot +7 +7 +8 attribute

with a note that for the purposes of "class level" in calculations, you count your Paragon level in both ClassA and ClassB, and neither ClassA nor ClassB can be a PrC (nor can they be the same class).

If the player mixed in Fighter with their class, after 10 levels they end up with:
+11 BaB (full BaB, up to +5.5)
+5 fighter feats
+8 attribute bonus
+10 "effective class level" (ie, lose 1)
+7 class level features (ie, lose 4)

which is less painful for "list classes" than the current Paragon.


Less radical variant: make the attribute bonuses an (Ex) enhancement to attributes. You could even increase them in this case, as it wouldn't stack with buffs and items.

This would allow a faster progression with less balance problems. :)

Ie, imagine:
1 +2
2 +2/+2
3 +4/+4
4 +4/+4/+2
5 +6/+6/+4
6 +6/+6/+4/+2
7 +8/+8/+6/+4
8 +8/+8/+8/+4
9 +8/+8/+8/+6
10 +8/+8/+8/+8
as an (Ex) stat bonus progression. The end result (over items) is +2 to 4 stats, which has less balance impact than the +10 to one stat that stacks with items.

2008-05-01, 09:17 PM
That seems needlessly convoluted. Why don't I just state that these bonuses have a limitation on how many times they can be put into the same ability score? Here's my idea and feel free to critique or offer more suggestions:

"No ability boost can adjust the same ability score the last one did."

So the most any one ability score could be boosted is +6. I think a Fighter/Paragon with 18 Strength putting all his boosts (even from HD) to Str would end up with at most about 28 Str.