Knight optimization

[quiet1mi]

as the title would suggest I am going to play as a knight... and I am tired of being a Paladin for that "I don't need flexibility i have honor and code" so i was wandering through PHB2 and saw the knight.... same honor but more flexibility in alignment (hey guys i can be evil too!)

and i am looking for some tips on...

role playing a knight without being a paladin
Playing the sturdy brawler role and the face
Not being stereotypical

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Crusader (ToB) is in all ways better than the Knight or Paladin at their job.

[quiet1mi]

again I have no access to the Tome of Battle so that is completely off limits (if I had access i would not have needed the roll optimization part of this thread).

[cupkeyk]

as the title would suggest I am going to play as a knight... and I am tired of being a Paladin for that "I don't need flexibility i have honor and code" so i was wandering through PHB2 and saw the knight.... same honor but more flexibility in alignment (hey guys i can be evil too!)

and i am looking for some tips on...

role playing a knight without being a paladin
Playing the sturdy brawler role and the face
Not being stereotypical



Strongheart Halfling Protector
1 Fighting challenge +1, knight's challenge, knight's code
Shield Specialization, Combat Expertise
2 Mounted Combat, shield block +1
3 Bulwark of defense, Shield Ward
4 Armor mastery (medium), test of mettle
5 Bonus feat (Ride by Attack), vigilant defender
6 Shield ally, Combat Focus
7 Fighting challenge +2
8 Call to battle
9 Armor mastery (heavy), Combat Vigor
10 Bonus feat (Spirited charge)
11 Shield block +2
12 Daunting challenge Dodge
13 Fighting challenge +3
14 Improved shield ally
15 Bonus feat (Great Fortitude), Combat Defense
16 Bond of loyalty
17 Impetuous endurance
18 Armor Specialization (Full Plate)
19 Fighting challenge +4
20 Loyal beyond death, shield block +3

This is pretty hard to accomplish. The knight will want high AC and high touch AC, this is accomplished through the shield and armor feats(shield ward lets you add shield boni to touch ac). Being mounted solves the issue for mobility. A ring of Blink gives you Miss chance. the other ring slot is for a ring of protection. add an amulet of natural armor. the Combat form Feats nets you fast healing AND the ability to switch the targets of your dodge. You will be armed with a lance, maximizing the bulwark of defense. Despite all this, a Crusader will still be better at this.

[quiet1mi]

where can i find the race strong heart halfling?

[cupkeyk]

where can i find the race strong heart halfling?

From the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, you need to be small to fit a medium mount in dungeons. Your best mount is a dire hawk, flying and medium, from Races of the Wild, but you will need to purchase it a belt of giant strength to carry you and your armor. If you can take a flaw, take wild cohort from the wizards website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) so it can gain strength with your levels instead. Or you can delay the feats from combat vigor onwards in favor of wild cohort at level 9 and ditching armor specialization. the hawk can't carry you 'til then and that's the power level that requires you to take to the sky. When it gains hd, make sure it gets the feats reinforced wings (and maybe heavy weight wings) from races of the dragon, air heritage from planar handbook and improved flight from the monster's manual.

[perpetualnoise]

already answered

[Kizara]

as the title would suggest I am going to play as a knight... and I am tired of being a Paladin for that "I don't need flexibility i have honor and code" so i was wandering through PHB2 and saw the knight.... same honor but more flexibility in alignment (hey guys i can be evil too!)

and i am looking for some tips on...

role playing a knight without being a paladin
Playing the sturdy brawler role and the face
Not being stereotypical


If you just want to play an evil Paladin, check these out:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny

[cupkeyk]

btw, you have no face skills in your class skills. Since you have no TOB you can't get martial study to add them to your class skills. High Cha and five ranks in Knowledge Nobility. But well 2 skill points per level won't win you any diplomancer contests.

[Kizara]

Also, being a cleric fulfills your described role well.

[Serpentine]

btw, you have no face skills in your class skills. Since you have no TOB you can't get martial study to add them to your class skills. High Cha and five ranks in Knowledge Nobility. But well 2 skill points per level won't win you any diplomancer contests.Uh... looking at my own character sheet, Knights get Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty)... hm, I thought that they got Diplomacy, but PHBII says differently. Anyway, those two are both pretty damn facey, and personally I really don't see why Knights don't get it. Might be worth consulting your DM.

Also, being a cleric fulfills your described role well.Maybe, but he said he wants to play a Knight.

and i am looking for some tips on...

role playing a knight without being a paladin
Playing the sturdy brawler role and the face
Not being stereotypical
I'd like to point out, first, that I'm not an optimiser. If anything, I've been holding my Knight back because she's a DMPC and I'm paranoid about outshining the rest of the party (no chance of that so far - she's died twice as much as anyone else :smallsigh:).

Point the first: Well, part of it can be thinking about your alignment in a bit more depth. If you're playing, say, a Lawful Good character, what's more important, the Lawful or the Good? In my case, it's Good over Lawful. My dwarf knight was completely devoted to the dwarven way of life, but when her brother got in some rather illegal potential danger, her duty to the safekeeping of her family overshadowed her duty to the laws of her people - she even mislead a tribunal in order to deflect punishment from her brother onto her! =O Another character might have gone the other way - duty to people overcoming duty to family. So yeah, I think thinking about just what, exactly, their alignment means to your character can be a good start. Another question is, why is your character a knight? What does s/he believe in? What are his/er ideal of honour? Is s/he a knight errant, does s/he have a Lord or Lady, or is s/he a lord/lady in his/her own right? Does s/he adhere to the principles of medieval chivalry (http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall/chivalry.html)? I think the stereotypical question can fall in with this stuff as well - make your knight personal and real, and s/he's unlikely to be too stereotypical. For general roleplaying, I encourage the use of "fears and fetishes" - what does your character fear, and what does s/he have a "thing" for? The best example is Goff's Nuturion, I think. He's terrified of mindless undead, and really likes nymphs. It doesn't have to be as tangible as this, though - my character fears failure, and has developed a real taste for ginger beer (the non-alcoholic variety - she's a recovering alcoholic).

Point the second: Like I said, I'm no optimiser. If it's optimisation you want, though, I'd avoid being a brawler and possibly the halfling idea, too, if you want to make the most of your Vigilant Defender ability, in which the the greater the area you threaten the more useful it is. On the other hand, I really like the idea of a Knight challenging someone to fisticuffs... Don't forget that, so far as I'm able to tell, the primary purpose of the Knight is to get hit so other people don't. You will want plenty of Constitution. Obviously Charisma's a big one, as well, for the Knight's Challenge. Just musing here, but I think a brawling Knight, if you don't want to worry about reach, would do well to be able to move through the battlefield with ease. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking an especially agile mount, the Spring Attack series of feats, as much Tumble as you're willing to sacrifice skill points for... that sort of thing.
For the face part of it, Diplomacy apparently not being a class skill for some strange reason, I'd recommend appealing to your DM for a house rule, spending skill points, or maybe simply saving up for appropriate magic items. Alternatively, you could just go around Intimidating people and blackmailing the nobility. You should have high Charisma, anyway, so that's covered.

If your group uses Weapons of Legacy, I've found Quickspur's Ally to be pretty useful (or I would, if I still had my mount).

Ummm... Yeah, I think that's about all the advice I can think of for not. Don't let your mount drown :smallsigh:

[cupkeyk]

Uh... looking at my own character sheet, Knights get Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty)... hm, I thought that they got Diplomacy, but PHBII says differently. Anyway, those two are both pretty damn facey, and personally I really don't see why Knights don't get it. Might be worth consulting your DM.
Maybe, but he said he wants to play a Knight.
I'd like to point out, first, that I'm not an optimiser. If anything, I've been holding my Knight back because she's a DMPC and I'm paranoid about outshining the rest of the party (no chance of that so far - she's died twice as much as anyone else :smallsigh:).

Point the second: Like I said, I'm no optimiser. If it's optimisation you want, though, I'd avoid being a brawler and possibly the halfling idea, too, if you want to make the most of your Vigilant Defender ability, in which the the greater the area you threaten the more useful it is. On the other hand, I really like the idea of a Knight challenging someone to fisticuffs... Don't forget that, so far as I'm able to tell, the primary purpose of the Knight is to get hit so other people don't. You will want plenty of Constitution. Obviously Charisma's a big one, as well, for the Knight's Challenge. Just musing here, but I think a brawling Knight, if you don't want to worry about reach, would do well to be able to move through the battlefield with ease. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking an especially agile mount, the Spring Attack series of feats, as much Tumble as you're willing to sacrifice skill points for... that sort of thing.
For the face part of it, Diplomacy apparently not being a class skill for some strange reason, I'd recommend appealing to your DM for a house rule, spending skill points, or maybe simply saving up for appropriate magic items. Alternatively, you could just go around Intimidating people and blackmailing the nobility. You should have high Charisma, anyway, so that's covered.

If your group uses Weapons of Legacy, I've found Quickspur's Ally to be pretty useful (or I would, if I still had my mount).

Ummm... Yeah, I think that's about all the advice I can think of for not. Don't let your mount drown :smallsigh:

I would like to point out that a small halfling has just as much reach as any medium creature. The primary reason you want to be small is to have a mount that will fit in a dungeon crawl. Nothing is more fun than turning on test of mettle and having your opponents chase around your flying mount with 70 speed. Mobility plus great AC, Touch AC, miss chance and formidable will and fort saves, now you can defend effectively.

Lastly, Knight has a skill sink: ride. With Int or Wis as the most feasible dump stats, expecting more than two skill points per level is a lot. One skill goes into Ride and for the first two levels, handle animal is also a skill sink. Now I guess you can drop skills into Knowledge nobility or intimidate, but then again, you will not be winning any beauty contests.

[Serpentine]

but then again, you will not be winning any beauty contests.Actually, considering Charisma is a very important ability for a Knight, there's a pretty good chance they would be :smallwink:

[Person_Man]

Here are a few of my favorite Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) builds:

Sir Didymus
Strongheart Halfling Knight 10

Con > Cha > Dex > Str > Int 13 > Wis (dump): You need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. It's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance.

Strongheart Halflings lose their Save bonus and gain a bonus feat instead. It's a Forgotten Realms Race. You can use Gnome instead if you want, but you'll be down a feat, so you'll probably want to take Flaws.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Halfling bonus feat), Mounted Combat (Knight bonus), Knock-Down, Ride By Attack (Knight bonus), Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Spirited Charge (Knight bonus). If possible, also pick up Shock Trooper ASAP. Though its not pivotal for this build, it helps a lot on your Charge attacks.

Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a pack of dogs, trained for guard duty, attack, and riding. They're cheap, fast, and also useful for disarming traps in dungeons. (Fetch the bone Lassie!) Ride one into combat, and have the others guard the campsite and act as replacements in case your main mount gets killed. An even better combination is if you have a Druid or Ranger in the party with an animal companion. At higher levels, you can take Leadership or Dragon Cohort and get something more useful, preferably something with flight.

Your combo is simple. Use Test of Mettle to draw your enemies to you. Charge through and past them repeatedly, drawing them as far away as you can from the rest of your party. Divide and conquer. Have the rest of the party gang up on whoever passed their Test of Mettle Save, and once they're dead, have them kill whoever is following you around - one at a time - vastly increasing your party's effectiveness.

Use your lance and shield together for higher AC, or use your lance two handed for Power Attack and Spirited Charge for 3(1d6+magic+[Str*1.5]+[BAB*2]) damage. If possible, use an animated shield, so that you can gain you Knight bonus to it while maximizing your damage output.

If someone tries to attack you, you get a free hit on them (lance is a reach weapon) followed by a free Trip attempt (Knock-Down). Remember, no one can charge through an occupied square, so if the person isn't killed, they become defensive terrain for you. And with Vigilante Defender, Skill Monkeys and Monks will have a hard time bypassing your defenses.

Also, its important to note that if someone under the effect of your Test of Mettle is standing 0-10 feet away from you, your next action should usually be to Withdraw or Move away at your full speed, or if possible Charge through and past them or someone else on the battlefield, ending up 70ish feet away. Don't make a Full Attack. And don't take your To-Hit down so far with Power Attack that you risk missing. This is counter intuitive, but remember that your main goal on the battlefield is to control your enemies, not engage them. If they spend every round chasing you, that's another round they're not attacking your friends. This is your true goal. Occasional massive damage from a great charge attack is just a helpful side effect.

Keep in mind that using this combo is just begging your DM to throw incorporeal (immune to Trip) enemies and/or enemies with no Int score (immune to Test of Mettle) at you. So I suggest you buy two lances: One main +4 Adamantine Lance (maximizing your chance To-Hit) for regular combat, and a secondary +1 Cold Steel Ghost Touch Lance of Disruption for when its appropriate.

Your DM will probably also mix in a large number of ranged combatants, so be sure to have a friend cast Protection from Arrows on you.

Ping Pong Pete
Goliath Knight 12 (ECL 13)


Cha > Dex > Str > Con > Int 13 > Wis (dump): Like Sir Didymus, you need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. And it's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance. But thanks to the racial bonuses, Pete doesn't need to invest in Str and Con as highly as Sir Didymus.

Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat (bonus), Improved Bull Rush, Ride By Attack (bonus), Combat Reflexes, Knockback (Races of Stone), Spirited Charge (bonus), Shock Trooper.

Pete has two combo's. The first copies Sir Didymus. Get on a horse, use Test of Mettle, divide and conquer. Note that your damage output will definitely be higher, because you can use a large lance, use Shock Trooper to shift the To-Hit penalty to AC, and will generally have higher Str.

The second combo revolves around Knockback. It's a feat that's limited to Large and Powerful Build races which gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy, adding your Power Attack bonus to it. So instead of leaving your enemies Prone, you push them back. Shock Trooper allows you to move your enemies one square to the left or right for each square you push them back. And it gives you a free Trip attempt if you can steer a Bull Rushed enemy into another enemy's square. And hilariously, all your enemies can do is get up and head right back towards you.

This build is more powerful, but it suffers from two big weaknesses. First, since goliaths are a medium race, they can generally only be mounted while outdoors. Being a small race, Sir Didymus can pretty much go anywhere on his medium mount, maintaining his mobility under almost any conditions. If you just know that you're going to be spending a lot of time indoors, then drop the Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge and pick up Iron Will and Great Fortitude instead (sigh - I wish the Knight's bonus feat list was better), and pick up Leap Attack as soon as you can.

Second, Sir Didymus is playable at every level, but Pete desperately needs lots of feats for his key second combo to work. Flaws help. But if you can't use flaws and you're playing at mid levels you have to suck it up and take 2 levels of Fighter, and accept the fact that your Knight abilities will be somewhat sub-par.

[Frosty]

I might also take Force of Personality if you're dumping Wisdom. You add your Charisma instead of your Wisdom against mind-affecting effects and spells.

[Moogle0119]

Or if you got enough feats to play around with go with Endurance/Steadfast Determination combo which lets you add your Con to your Will saves instead of Wis. The additional benefit is that if you roll a natural 1 on a FORT save it doesn't count as an auto-fail and that you still calculate your save as whatever the total is.

The bad thing though obviously is that this involves dumping a feat on Endurance and it definitely seems like Knights are pretty feat starved as is.

[Frosty]

Also bad: Not failing on a natural one does little for a knight. A Knight a Wizard's fort progression.

[Deepblue706]

Definitely consider Person Man's suggestions - that's how you play a Knight.