PDA

View Full Version : Any advice on this one?



The J Pizzel
2008-04-30, 08:35 AM
So I have a problem that I never saw coming. Over the last 10 or so sessions I find I'm having to set up encounters as a "surprise" fight rather than a "you know it's coming" fight, otherwise my players will take roughly 20-30 min (OOC) to argue over the best course of action. They try to over strategize to the point that everyone's ideas are perfectly valid and good, but they never seem to agree on a course of action. Let me give some data: 1 player is ex-military, 1 is currently a member of a local tactical law enforcement team (read: SWAT, but not exactly), 1 is just really frappin smart, and the other two just wanna kill stuff but still add to the turmoil of discussion.

Whats funny is that this group works really well together outside of combat. Rogue handles sneaky stuff. Cleric handles dimplomatic stuff. Wizzie handles everything else. Monk handles... Warblade does side projects to help bring money. They share the wealth extremely well (better than any group I've ever had). Constantly giving and recieving money from each other to buy that better armor or that RoP +3. So why do they suddenly get anal when it comes to planning for combat? I guess cause their PC's life is on the line.

I've gotten to where I have to make every encounter a "and as you round the bend you see a small host of ogres with spears ready, roll iniative". Which sucks about this is, if the majority of them win initiative...the problem still occurs becuase now they all go before my baddies and they try to plan out the first round. It's not that bad once we get into combat, each individual player doesn't generally take too long per round (I've instituted a rule that if you take too long, I pass you up), it's just pre-planning for combat that takes forever.

Any advice?
jP

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-30, 08:47 AM
Get a timer. Set it up for 15 minutes. Now, face your players and say:

"Hey, guys, I'm okay with you planning your battles, but this is a bit too much. Now, since I want to finish encounters in a reasonable time, I'm setting up this timer. You have 15 (Or another number you like) minutes to plan strategy, individually. Your characters can only speak a few words in 6 rounds, so no thinking or discussing group tactics. Now, GO!"

CTG
2008-04-30, 08:49 AM
I hate to say it, but no matter the group, people will plan for battles they know are coming, there is no way around that. Having every enounter random will lessen the effect of the game, it will seem to have little plot.

Let them plan, it will take a while, and yes, as a DM wanting to keep things running it will get on your nerves. However such planning is how PCs stay alive. And it makes D&D something more than hack and slash. The best way to use is make some encounters non-bad guy in theme. Such as Complex Trap : Hypercube (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79135).

nerulean
2008-04-30, 08:50 AM
If the group has reacted reasonably to the "if you take too long, I pass you up" rule, I think they'd react reasonably to being told that they're taking too long planning at the beginning of combat. If your ogres come round the corner of the road, tell them they've only got five rounds in game before the ogres are on top of them, and thus at most five minutes out of character to discuss (or less, depending on how harsh you feel you need to be). If they are forewarned of a battle then strategizing is really only part of the game, but that doesn't mean you can't tell them that they need to be quick about it to try and keep the game running.

The J Pizzel
2008-04-30, 08:58 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with the "it's an integral part of DnD" thought. Hell, it's one of the many things I enjoy about it. And quite frankly, it makes for some great battles. I love knowing I'm going to fight a Red Dragon.

If your ogres come round the corner of the road, tell them they've only got five rounds in game before the ogres are on top of them
This had been a helping factor in the the problem. I'll say something like "and 3 orcs appear running full speed at you, roll initiave, you have 3 full rounds of prep time". This kinda puts things in perspective, but they still take a long time (OOC) preping in those 3 rounds. And to let them know about a fight in advance, forget it. We'll be here all night.

jP

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-30, 09:01 AM
Because of this, use the timer and the "Only talk as much as you reasonably could in six seconds" rules. It'll force your players to improvise instead of playing Batman for a battle against orcs.

Craig1f
2008-04-30, 09:02 AM
A couple thoughts.

- First, if they round the corner and see ogres, they don't GET time to discuss. It's time to roll initiative. If they take longer than 6 seconds to roll initiative, they lose their turn because in the game, they haven't reacted.

- Second, you should create consequence for them taking so long. If they have a discussion, it must be in game. If they sneak up on a band of orcs doing something, make the orcs continue to do things while they're discussing.

Player - "Hey, so do you think we should sneak up, or charge? Why don't you ..."
DM - "As you sit there discussing, two orcs return with what appears to be an Elvish prisoner"
Player - "Oh, now they have a prisoner. Maybe we can free the prisoner and then ..."
DM - "As you sit there talking, the chief begins to yell and raises his axe over the elf neck. You don't even have a chance to react as the elf is killed."
Party - "...crap"

Make it clear that as they sit there and discuss, things are happening. The game is not paused. Waiting may bring an advantage, or cause an advantage to slip by.

Hal
2008-04-30, 09:05 AM
Everybody brings something different to the game. These are tactically minded guys; this is only natural for them. If they're enjoying it, then it's not a huge problem.

That said, if you are bored waiting for them to decide what to do, just talk to them about it. "Guys, I know you like to plan your combat out to be efficient and effective, but I get bored watching you plan strategy for half an hour. Can we cut it back to 10 minutes of planning time?"

Of course, you could always just do what I do and threaten to open up a portal to the plane of elemental earth while flashing one of these:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/UK_road_traffic_warning_sign_falling_rocks.png

That always gets things moving along :smallbiggrin:

Kol Korran
2008-04-30, 09:27 AM
first of all- it's not necesserily bad that they take long time strategizing, if they enjoy it! some people far enjoy making plans, checking infromation, and so on, even mroe than the fights. perhaps they spend so much time on this because:
a) they like it. (and they can all contribute, unlike when the rogue disables traps, the cleric handles diplomacy, and the rest of what you mentioned...)
b) from their backgrounds- they have far more knowledge of the possibilites of a combat tactical situation, than they do about other game elements (i guess none of them have dealt with traps, researched magic, or been a high level diplomat in their personal lives). they get into more detail becasue, well, they can.

but if you still think it is a problem, i suggest to address it from two points- first, the encoutners, and second, handling the time.

the encoutners first:

your group seem to revel in this sort ofthing, so learn mroe about tactics, battle terrains, complications and more. when the party learns of the coming encounter, they learn only some of the information, not all of it. THEN, the info gathering becomes sort of an encoutner on it's own!. as a simpel example: a villager returns and tells of hooded raiders attacking their work camp in the woods over night. he gives soem infromatio nabout them (approximate numbers, perhaps a skin color or emblem, perhaps riding mounts, but his description shows these are not just bandits, but more organized. the groups ventures in with partial information (pehrpas they discuss marchign formation, or divination before heading on). they may reach a ruin, and notcies soem orcs and weaponry - here they might discuss more tactics, but you nee to make sure they at least get glimpses of perhaps other humanoids inside, maybe mysterious supplies brought in, maybe the growls of an unknown beast? partial information, all the way, leding them inwards. you will make their tactics worthwhile, but also keep the suspense, and the need to act.
instead of making suprise encounters, brign surprise elements into the encounter (as every battle trained proffesional will tell you= each plan holds until the unexpected happens). this could be lot of things- unseen traps, better equipment than suspected, perhaps a previously unsespected monster, an entirely new twist or more. in most cases, this these obstructions shouldn't utterly nullify the plan, just add a sense of surprise, danger, excitment, and the need to readjust in the middle of action. if i continue the above example, the party may find numerous surprises there: finely hidden snares around the supposed "weak spot" of the encampment (simpel pits could do wonders), perhaps the orcs have 2-3 kobold sorcerers, forced to serve with some of their tribe kobolds heled captive (this could suddenly prove a strategic point in the midst of battle). a samll "fast response reserve" tema of the orcs can prove to be better traiend fighters, with better armors, weapons, and perhaps even slchemical items such as tanglefoot bags, the growlign heard before can belong to a cpatured owlbear, which may help the characters if released, or unleashed upn them if angered properly by the captors. hey, some of these maruders may even turn out to be elite guards of the militia, workign twith the rocs for soem reason.


about time management: other than the last part of the following, you should always limit the players time to discuss things. tel lthem that in your next session, and make the time limitation fit the situation. if the players grumble, suggest to them to work out battle trouines and drills OUTSIDE OF PLAY, that their characters can follow through. your more experienced players (in real life situations i mean) will probably understand this. one of the mai nreason proffesionals go through all that training is in order not to waste time discussing things when the heat is up. there is no "pause" button. i'd suggest to consider the following rough categorizing of limiting plannign time:

heat of battle: wether the characters just stumbled into an encounter, or suddenly ecnoutnered a new situation whilst in the mid of battle, planning thoroughly is impossible. turn to the player who's turn it is, and tell him/her s/he has 10 seconds to tell you his/ her actions for the round (you may use mroe or less, but i found out i10 seconds are fairly fair, as well as keeping the game moving) if s/he doesn't,- then his/ her character jsut stands there, shocked. (as some people actually do i n real life). tell this to your players up front, atthestart of the session you're using this ouse rule. this also goes for the first round after the players roleld initiative. it's up to you to keep the pace...
limited time: the conditions the party spied upon are not stoic, and they should never be so- the orcs may get reinforcments, night might descend giving them better eyesight, they might transfer their prisoners away, and more. always make time crucial. this will limit the party's discussion, (as the PCs strategizse, time passes) or at least will give it consequences (if they talk too much they might miss their goal, the battlefield might change rendering part of their plan redundent, their might be stronger or weaker reinforcments, and more). now, there are two things you must consider in advance here. the first is the ime limit: set up a time set for discussions that present a certain amount of time in the game world (can't give you a hard figure on that, very objecitve to the party and DM) the players might be aware of the time limit, or they might not, or they might have some sort of assesment ("from your observation you think it's about 3 more hours before they next shipment arrives. that gives you 15-20 mintues real time. of course, your assesment may be wrong). some time just realising the time tables is a real, and rewarding challange (things might get tougher, but might also get easier). the second thing is the implications of the passing time. again- the players may be aware or unaware of that (i suggest write toyuorself a small table detailing what happens throguh the timeline, and how hard it migth be for the players to figure this out). some of the affects may be obvious, some hidden, or whatever you need. but make sure that at least some of the effects are "there" because of the elapsed time. it would educate your players not to dally too much.
the last category is when players truly do have plenty of time: researchign how to enter a tomb, with no one else racign against them. a part of a siegeing force, where the defendrs can only barricade, and more... these ituations gives the playes a lot of time to argue and so on. my suggestion? let them.. everyonce in awhile, let them brgin their full tacical skills to the table (preferably in big tactical battles and so on). keep it interesting by supplying bits of information, making the tactics a crucial part of the uber-ecnounter to come and so on. allow plannign when planning is appropriate. this however should be the exception, rather than the norrm, or otherwise jut let your players play strategy games. you can stillapply all of the above, as well as a time limit of a sort (a messanger coming and askign the players fortheir battles plans, so he can send them to the commander, the tomb having a very slow inbuilt of magic that causes various summoned monsters to apepr if it is breached).


that is all i can think of from the top of my head. some of this may mean you'll have to do a bit mroe work, and that at first the players may resent soem of the changes, but i do believe they will coem around, and see it all as adding to the experience, rather than taking from it. (especially the more combat trained ones...)

that is all, Kol.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-30, 10:08 AM
This had been a helping factor in the the problem. I'll say something like "and 3 orcs appear running full speed at you, roll initiave, you have 3 full rounds of prep time". This kinda puts things in perspective, but they still take a long time (OOC) preping in those 3 rounds.

How can they take a long time to prepare when their characters only have 18 seconds?

Seriously, use a timer or count. I've done the counting out loud bit, and it works very well, even if your players get a bit pissy at first. They have 18 seconds to talk, then they have to announce actions, and nobody gets to talk while actions are being announced. During the round, on each of their own turns, everyone gets to say something - nobody else gets to reply until their own turn.

This changes up the rhythm, and should also help force your players into working out standard tactics that they follow without need for discussion. That is how a team is supposed to fight - not by actively consulting about strategy during an encounter, but by planning strategies beforehand. Heck, with some of their backgrounds, it seems pretty reasonable to tell them to work out tactics and limit communication about strategy during combat to orders. "Formation A! Strike C! Go!"

Chronos
2008-04-30, 12:20 PM
If it's a matter of "OK, guys, we're fighting the Arch-Lich Xyzzy tomorrow, how do you think we should do it?", then yes, it's perfectly reasonable for them to spend hours discussing their tactics. I know that if I were planning on facing an Arch-Lich, I'd sure as heck want to spend a lot of time on the planning. If the problem is just that it's boring you, then time a session break for that, and let them discuss it on their own time. Likewise, if they want to put together a standard set of battle plans, a la Formation C, Strike Plan Alpha or what not.

But if we're talking "The charging orcs are three rounds away", then they have 18 seconds to make and implement any plans, and that's it. Time goes on.

Ascension
2008-04-30, 02:56 PM
Ugh. I hate playing chess with clocks and I'd loathe playing D&D with timers.

Just use common sense. When it gets ridiculously longwinded, tell 'em it's ridiculously longwinded. Until then, let 'em talk. Let 'em plan. Let 'em take their time.

Remember, it's just a game, we really should relax.

Craig1f
2008-04-30, 04:23 PM
Ugh. I hate playing chess with clocks and I'd loathe playing D&D with timers.

You're not using a timer. They can talk as long as they want. But if they talk, they do it in character, and time in the game is ticking away.

That's how the game should be played. Any time you don't spend asking the DM questions about what your character knows or senses should be counted against game time.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-30, 04:33 PM
If it's a matter of "OK, guys, we're fighting the Arch-Lich Xyzzy tomorrow, how do you think we should do it?",

That's easy, you cast Plugh on him.


Anyway, in my experience, the game is more fun if, when the characters are in a frantic action scene, the players cannot stall this scene by analysing and discussing it at length while they're going on. Planning has its place, but during combat isn't that place.