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valadil
2008-04-30, 03:28 PM
I've noticed a bunch of threads mentioning how battlefield controller casters lose viability around level 9 once enemies have access to freedom of movement. This mostly comes from FoM making Black Tentacles and Solid Fog obsolete.

We all know that there are basically 5 ways a spell can be resisted. SR, touch ac for rays, fort, ref, and will. I propose that battlefield controllers should treat Freedom of Movement as a 6th resistance. If a foe lacks FoM, you can go ahead and use Black Tentacles or Fog. If they have FoM you attack a different resistance. You can still control the battlefield, you'll just need to figure out how with each foe.

What other options are out there? I recently had my sorcerer take Wall of Force as an alternative battlefield control spell. It's worked nicely so far (I blocked 10-15 enemies in a corner with a defenestrating sphere that tossed them out one at a time for us to deal with individually). Grease and web are great. I even consider stinking cloud to be battlefield control. You don't need to add any obstacles to the map to control the battlefield. Fear is a great example of this. It will lock up several foes for a number of rounds letting you turn one big fight into a series of smaller fights. Yeah, it requires a will save, but I'd rather the enemy gets a chance with a will save than automatically ignoring my Fog spell due to FoM.

So what else can a battlefield controller do against Freedom of Movement?

mostlyharmful
2008-04-30, 03:38 PM
There are lots of battlefield controls that affect FoMed PCs, it just stops stuff that restricts your own personal movement, not things that utterly block any kind of movement (wall of force), render you incapable of moving without targeting you specifically (grease, lots of cloud spells such as Stinking Cloud or Fog Cloud) or that just reduce your movement rate (Solid fog or Spike growth).

Battlefield control is a big tent, there's plenty that can get around FoM, really that just utterly cripples any lock-down grapple build and some low level stuff like web and entangle. It's not going to do diddly squat against a level appropriate controller caster, great vs dragons though.

Triaxx
2008-04-30, 05:10 PM
Sleep is a good example of BC which isn't effected by FoM. Dominate, and Moral killers are other good examples.

Kizara
2008-04-30, 06:11 PM
There are lots of battlefield controls that affect FoMed PCs, it just stops stuff that restricts your own personal movement, not things that utterly block any kind of movement (wall of force), render you incapable of moving without targeting you specifically (grease, lots of cloud spells such as Stinking Cloud or Fog Cloud) or that just reduce your movement rate (Solid fog or Spike growth).

Battlefield control is a big tent, there's plenty that can get around FoM, really that just utterly cripples any lock-down grapple build and some low level stuff like web and entangle. It's not going to do diddly squat against a level appropriate controller caster, great vs dragons though.

Pretty sure FoM trumps the various Cloud effects. Grease might work, depending on your interpretation.

sikyon
2008-04-30, 06:18 PM
it just stops stuff that restricts your own personal movement, not things that utterly block any kind of movement (wall of force), render you incapable of moving without targeting you specifically (grease, lots of cloud spells such as Stinking Cloud or Fog Cloud) or that just reduce your movement rate (Solid fog or Spike growth).


You are so wrong.

A) It will let you bypass things that don't target you specifically. Solid cloud is an example straight out of the description of FoM of what it works against.

B) It is debatable if FoM will let you move through a wall of force. The description is all-encompassing enough so that by RAW it allows you to walk through walls of force, as wall of force is a spell that usually impedes movement.


This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.



Grease and web are great.

Web specifically will not work. Grease will not work either as it usually impedes movement. Remember people, freedom of movement works EVEN under the influence of magic, not ONLY under the influence of magic.


That being said, a few symbols of sleep and other such persistent AoE spells will do the trick.

Leewei
2008-04-30, 06:31 PM
Wall of stone is a good example of a tactical counter to FoM. Spike stones is another such gem. Sure, FoM will allow someone to cross a spikey area, but how much damage do you want to take by doing so?

One of my PCs used to self-buff to ridiculous levels with spells like freedom of movement, air walk, control wind and so on. This gave him the ability to move about in the air unimpeded by the wind storm he'd create when a fight broke out. This tactic was countered brutally by an opponent casting reciprocal gyre. This gives rise to a separate category of countermeasures: FoM suppression through dispel magic or antimagic field.

Smiley_
2008-04-30, 06:41 PM
Cloud spells would be partially usable when FoM is in effect. Solid fog might not cut the speed in half, but the inability-to-see movement penalty is still in effect.

However, by the reason that Wall of Force is bypassed by FoM, then you could say that you could bypass any magical barrier including prismatic spheres and prismatic walls.

Kizara
2008-04-30, 06:51 PM
Cloud spells would be partially usable when FoM is in effect. Solid fog might not cut the speed in half, but the inability-to-see movement penalty is still in effect.

However, by the reason that Wall of Force is bypassed by FoM, then you could say that you could bypass any magical barrier including prismatic spheres and prismatic walls.

One always could elect to walk through prismatic walls, there was just this slight danger of everything involved.

FoM makes you able to ignore movement problems, it doesn't make moving through something safe or wise.

cupkeyk
2008-04-30, 07:00 PM
I am pretty sure FoM does not beat Evard's Black tentacles. Your movement is not magically impeded, you are just grappling.

Kizara
2008-04-30, 07:04 PM
I am pretty sure FoM does not beat Evard's Black tentacles. Your movement is not magically impeded, you are just grappling.

It's a dang good thing it makes you completely immune to grappling then.

Aquillion
2008-04-30, 07:36 PM
Web specifically will not work. Grease will not work either as it usually impedes movement. Remember people, freedom of movement works EVEN under the influence of magic, not ONLY under the influence of magic.Um, it says 'even' because it means you can also move when you're not under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement.

If it said only... well, think about how it would look. That would be directly stating that the spell prevents you from moving when you're not in a solid fog or something, and that's silly.

Here's a funny question: Suppose I have FoM up, walk into an AMF, and get grappled (or it's an underwater AMF.) Well, the thing is, in this case having my FOM suppressed would impede my movement, right? Therefore, FOM beats AMF, and continues to function within one!

I do not actually think it works, but it's an example of how absurdly vague the wording is. Another old argument was that it lets you move and attack normally even while under the effects of a Finger of Death.

What if you get hit by Stone to Flesh? Polymorphed into a creature that can't move? Polymorph Any Objected into an object? What if I'm hit with Imprisonment?

I don't think it's "normal" for me to attack my teammates, and FOM lets me "move and attack normally." "Dominate Person" can certainly impede movement (I can't move my body at all, it's being dominated!) Therefore, FOM beats Dominate Person.

Chronos
2008-04-30, 08:34 PM
Grease will not work either as it usually impedes movement.Grease does not impede movement. Grease makes you fall, and Freedom of Movement does nothing to stop things from making you fall. Once you've fallen, you're prone, and being prone does impede your movement, but it's an impediment of a sort which is not covered by Freedom of Movement, since the status of being prone is nonmagical.

Epinephrine
2008-04-30, 08:37 PM
The new entry in the FAQ on freedom of movement refers to some of the examples that have been brought up; it says that mental effects that prevent movement (hold person, being stunned) aren't effects that are designed to physically limit movement. It also suggests that though turning to stone does restrict movement physically, it isn't the goal of the spell, which is to turn someone to stone - an effect that it wouldn't protect against.

valadil
2008-04-30, 10:35 PM
I have a hard time believing that any of my DMs would ever allow FoM to bypass Wall of Force. Fly does however trump walls unless you're in an enclosed space. Any idea what to do against a flying FoM user? If you said dispel, any idea what to do against a winged boots and ring of FoM weilding bastard? My best guess would be Fear.

Cuddly
2008-04-30, 10:49 PM
Disjunction.

sikyon
2008-04-30, 11:00 PM
Grease does not impede movement. Grease makes you fall, and Freedom of Movement does nothing to stop things from making you fall. Once you've fallen, you're prone, and being prone does impede your movement, but it's an impediment of a sort which is not covered by Freedom of Movement, since the status of being prone is nonmagical.

FoM protects you from nonmagical impedments to movement as well.


Um, it says 'even' because it means you can also move when you're not under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement.


No, let me post it again.


This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

Does not specify the effect has to be magical, simply specifies the effect includes those which are magical. If it was to specify magical effects only, the wording would be


"This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell when under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. "

FoM works against natural winds, being underwater, ect.


Here's a funny question: Suppose I have FoM up, walk into an AMF, and get grappled (or it's an underwater AMF.) Well, the thing is, in this case having my FOM suppressed would impede my movement, right? Therefore, FOM beats AMF, and continues to function within one!


Does AMF usually impede movement? No, it does not. Therefore FoM doesn't cover it.



Grease does not impede movement. Grease makes you fall, and Freedom of Movement does nothing to stop things from making you fall. Once you've fallen, you're prone, and being prone does impede your movement, but it's an impediment of a sort which is not covered by Freedom of Movement, since the status of being prone is nonmagical.



A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).

There's a movement impediment right there. I concur falling is not an impediment of movement. However, as the DC 10 Balance check is going to be negated thanks to FoM, you can't fall.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 11:09 PM
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). wordieness

sikyon
2008-04-30, 11:26 PM
Only applies if the creature was originally in the area when the spell was cast. This does not make it battlefield control, this makes it save or suck. Nice try.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 11:27 PM
Only applies if the creature was originally in the area when the spell was cast. This does not make it battlefield control, this makes it save or suck. Nice try.Or if they end their movement in there.

sikyon
2008-04-30, 11:41 PM
Or if they end their movement in there.

I think you need to re-read the description.

Chronos
2008-05-01, 12:41 AM
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall)This isn't a penalty to speed imposed by the Grease spell. This is a penalty to speed imposed by not wanting to fall on your bum. You can also move at normal speed through the slippery area, it just increases the Balance DC to 15 (this is from the "see the Balance skill for details" bit).

As for the notion that Freedom of Movement removes the movement penalty from being prone, does it also enable me to move my full speed straight up? Because it's exactly the same thing hindering me from doing that as from moving while prone: Gravity.

Danzaver
2008-05-01, 01:07 AM
This is a bit off topic, but here is an interesting interpretation for FoM, which I have encountered in a game (I was not DMing):

A character with freedom of movement jumps off a boat into the ocean. As the water does not slow his descent, he falls about 5 kms to the ocean floor where he is killed on impact.

Plausible or no? What do you think?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-01, 01:36 AM
This is a bit off topic, but here is an interesting interpretation for FoM, which I have encountered in a game (I was not DMing):

A character with freedom of movement jumps off a boat into the ocean. As the water does not slow his descent, he falls about 5 kms to the ocean floor where he is killed on impact.

Plausible or no? What do you think?Anyone else beginning to get an "Iron Heart Surge" feel from this?

Fishy
2008-05-01, 02:14 AM
Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge).

Once per encounter as a standard action, end the effect of "Feelings of personal inadequacy caused by all of my strategic usefulness being outmoded by one spell".

leperkhaun
2008-05-01, 03:43 AM
This is a bit off topic, but here is an interesting interpretation for FoM, which I have encountered in a game (I was not DMing):

A character with freedom of movement jumps off a boat into the ocean. As the water does not slow his descent, he falls about 5 kms to the ocean floor where he is killed on impact.

Plausible or no? What do you think?

because of the weird wording of the spell, its arguable. However id say that no....because SINKING in water is a normal type of movment

Attilargh
2008-05-01, 04:11 AM
So's slipping on a greasy surface. :smallwink:

But hey, that bit about being able to attack normally. Does a spell called Freedom of Movement seriously negate being, say, blinded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded) or dazzled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazzled)?

Epinephrine
2008-05-01, 07:04 AM
So's slipping on a greasy surface. :smallwink:

But hey, that bit about being able to attack normally. Does a spell called Freedom of Movement seriously negate being, say, blinded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded) or dazzled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazzled)?

The FAQ suggests that that shouldn't be the case, but as always, DMs can decide.


Does the freedom of movement spell protect a character
from being stunned? The argument is that "stun" is a
condition that hinders movement.
Freedom of movement is one of those tricky spells that has
a lot of open-ended wording that might lead to confusion. The
spell becomes much more manageable if you just look at it as
something that ignores any physical impediment to movement
or actions. If you assign this restriction, then it makes sense that
freedom of movement works against solid fog, slow, and web;
each of these spells puts something in the way of the creature
that stops them from moving/acting, or specifically targets the
creature’s physical movement.
With this interpretation, spells and effects such as hold
person that apply a mental impediment to taking any action
would not be bypassed by freedom of movement. These are
mental effects, and freedom of movement only helps you bypass
physical effects (such as solid fog) or effects that specifically
impede just your movement, not spells that stop you from
taking any action, as hold person does.
In the same vein, freedom of movement would not work on
someone who had been turned to stone by a medusa’s gaze or
by a flesh to stone spell.
To answer the original question, being stunned is one of
those mental effects and would normally deny a creature the
ability to act at all. Since it’s not specifically focused on just
impeding movement, and it is a mental, not physical
impediment, freedom of movement would not help a stunned
creature to act or move normally.
This interpretation of freedom of movement may make it
easier to adjudicate the effects of the spell, but it is also more
restrictive. As always, it will ultimately be up to the Dungeon
Master to make the best call as he sees fit for his campaign and
play session.

Some other similar issues are addressed -


Does freedom of movement allow one to use spells such
as dimension door and ethereal jaunt despite being under
the effect of dimensional anchor?
Freedom of movement does not allow a caster to use spells
such as dimension door or ethereal jaunt while under the
effects of dimensional anchor. Can you still move or act
normally while under the effects of these spells? The answer is
yes, though there are spells that will fail if you try to cast them.

Does freedom of movement negate the ranged attack
penalty of –2 per 5 feet of water crossed? If not, is there a
benefit to the aquatic property for ranged weapons (Magic
Item Compendium 28)?
Freedom of movement does specifically state that it allows
the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, but
then follows up the attacks section with only melee attack
entries. It also mentions that hurled weapons do not gain this
bonus of freedom of movement. Using this information, we can
infer that ranged attacks do not gain the benefit of freedom of
movement, and therefore would suffer all normal penalties
while under water.

Does freedom of movement work against mimics and
other adhesives?
Yes. Freedom of movement will allow a creature to escape
from any type of adhesive or creature that uses some type of
adhesive attack, such as the mimic. This is of course unless the
entry specifically states that freedom of movement will not
allow the creature to escape.

Swallow whole uses the grapple rules to determine
whether you are swallowed. Freedom of movement spell says
you win all grapple checks. Does freedom of movement
automatically allow a character to succeed against the
swallow whole attack?
Freedom of movement’s wording is actually a bit more
specific on this case, and it reads, “The subject automatically
succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt,
as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to
escape a grapple or pin.”
So, by the rules as written, it would not help against the
grapple check made to prevent a creature from being
swallowed whole. However, a Dungeon Master could definitely
rule that the attack is so similar to grappling that the freedom of
movement effects would still apply.
Also, swallow whole attempts usually happen after the
creature has successfully grabbed or grappled a foe, and
freedom of movement would definitely help against that initial
grapple attempt.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-01, 07:12 AM
[snip]
So you can walk through Wall of Iron and Wall of Stone with Freedom of Movement on? Or am I reading that wrong?

Danzaver
2008-05-01, 07:12 AM
because of the weird wording of the spell, its arguable. However id say that no....because SINKING in water is a normal type of movment

I seem to remember at the edition we were playing at the time (probably 2nd?) there was a section in the DMG about underwater combat, and it said that freedom of movement negates all movement penalties for moving underwater, which was what he used to justify it. He said that the water had no effect of friction on the player and was therefore unable to affect the downwards motion at all. So they continued to fall, increasing speed as per gravity.

The DM in question's argument (in my opinion) failed to take into account buoyancy. If freedom of movement negates buoyancy, then it might as well negate gravity, which is just silly.

It still leaves a sticky question, and this one for the physics students: if freedom of movement can prevent your movement from being slowed by water resistance while walking along the bottom of the ocean, then assumedly it negates water resistance from someone falling into water.

So, this will result in a resisting force to slow the person's descent, but what happens then? Without water resistance and friction, will the person fall at a gradually slowing speed (because of buoyancy), until they stop, and then start to rise back towards the surface, increasing in speed, until they shoot at high speeds out of the water?

And then what? Assumedly they will fall again, and the process will repeat. :smallconfused:

EDIT: I just told my sister about this theory, and she said "I can see a really nasty trap in the making." XD

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:25 AM
So you can walk through Wall of Iron and Wall of Stone with Freedom of Movement on? Or am I reading that wrong?

Nope. It takes some reading, but check this;


Freedom of movement does not allow a caster to use spells
such as dimension door or ethereal jaunt while under the
effects of dimensional anchor. Can you still move or act
normally while under the effects of these spells? The answer is
yes, though there are spells that will fail if you try to cast them.


Can you still move or act normally while a Wall of Force or whatnot is up? Yes. It's just that the dungeon had a wall added, effectively.

sikyon
2008-05-01, 07:28 AM
This isn't a penalty to speed imposed by the Grease spell. This is a penalty to speed imposed by not wanting to fall on your bum. You can also move at normal speed through the slippery area, it just increases the Balance DC to 15 (this is from the "see the Balance skill for details" bit).

By forcing you to roll a save for not being able to move your full speed, grease is impeding your movement. Nowhere does it say that grease only affects you if it specifically reduces your speed. You're just pulling that requirement out of thin air. Furthermore, even it did, grease still would be changing the targets movement speed from full to none if he fails his balance check.



As for the notion that Freedom of Movement removes the movement penalty from being prone, does it also enable me to move my full speed straight up? Because it's exactly the same thing hindering me from doing that as from moving while prone: Gravity.

I never said that it would allow you to move at full speed while prone. I agree that it won't protect you from being knocked on your butt, but the condition for testing if you will be knocked on your butt in a grease spell is part of the section where it impedes your movement by forcing you to roll balance checks.


So you can walk through Wall of Iron and Wall of Stone with Freedom of Movement on? Or am I reading that wrong?

Strictly speaking both of these are usually going to impede your movement and prevent you from moving normally, so yes.



So, this will result in a resisting force to slow the person's descent, but what happens then? Without water resistance and friction, will the person fall at a gradually slowing speed, until they stop, and then start to rise back towards the surface, increasing in speed, until they shoot at high speeds out of the water?

And then what? Assumedly they will fall again, and the process will repeat.


If you take a deep breathe you are lighter than water. If you exhale fully you are less dense than water.

Now, one of two things happens here:

A) If you start off deep the water pressure may crush you and compress the air in your lungs, reducing the density. Basically the water will compact you to its density and you'll keep falling.

B) You start sinking, until water is more dense than your body. This will be a case of undamped harmonic motion due to a lack of friction, and you will go bobbing up and down around the pressure.

In either case it will kill you unless you are undead or warforged or something similar.

Edit:
Nope. It takes some reading, but check this;


Can you still move or act normally while a Wall of Force or whatnot is up? Yes. It's just that the dungeon had a wall added, effectively.

Effectively, but not for the purposes of this spell. You cannot move or act normally because there is now a wall of force in your way.

This is the way I read FoM:

You can move normally regardless of unusual impediments, including magical ones.

Makes much more sense now, though it allows you to traverse wall of force.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:34 AM
Strictly speaking both of these are usually going to impede your movement and prevent you from moving normally, so yes.
If you check the wording of the FAQ, the question is whether the spell will change your normal movement in any way. You have strongly supported FoM affecting non-magical things as well; I pose to you, does Freedom of Movement allow you to run through a normal, nonmagical wall?



Effectively, but not for the purposes of this spell. You cannot move or act normally because there is now a wall of force in your way.

No, a wall of force does not prevent or change your normal movement in any way. It alters the dimensions of the space you're in, but it does not move or impede you.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-01, 07:43 AM
Can you still move or act normally while a Wall of Force or whatnot is up? Yes. It's just that the dungeon had a wall added, effectively.
Hmm.

So, with Freedom of Movement on, you can walk out of a Solid Fog cast around you just fine, but you can't run through an already-existing one without penalty, right? You can use it to escape from someone casting Wall of Stone to encase you in rock, but not to run through a wall someone made earlier?

sikyon
2008-05-01, 07:44 AM
If you check the wording of the FAQ, the question is whether the spell will change your normal movement in any way. You have strongly supported FoM affecting non-magical things as well; I pose to you, does Freedom of Movement allow you to run through a normal, nonmagical wall?


Nonmagical wall are not not unusual, therefore no.



No, a wall of force does not prevent or change your normal movement in any way. It alters the dimensions of the space you're in, but it does not move or impede you.

Alters the dimensions of space I'm in? Wall of force is not reality manipulation. No, if I go up to a wall of force and exert a force against the wall attempting to accelerate, the wall is going to exert an opposite force on me keeping me stationary. The same way web is going to exert an opposite force on me keeping me stationary when i try and move away from it. Both are impeding my movement when I am trying to move against them.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:49 AM
Hmm.

So, with Freedom of Movement on, you can walk out of a Solid Fog cast around you just fine, but you can't run through an already-existing one without penalty, right? You can use it to escape from someone casting Wall of Stone to encase you in rock, but not to run through a wall someone made earlier?

I'd say that the key is that Wall of X /literally shapes the battlefield/. Normal human movement stops at walls, fullstop. That the wall is magical is irrelevant.

Things like Web do /not/ shape the battlefield in the same way by altering its dimensions, they alter its properties. Thus, a better definition would be that FoM stops the impeding of motion through the properties of the battlefield, rather then the altering of its dimensions.

Lest one protest that humans' normal movement stops in water, this is true. However, the spell /then goes on to say/ that it /also/ helps you in the water, as a /seperate/ effect.


Alters the dimensions of space I'm in? Wall of force is not reality manipulation. No, if I go up to a wall of force and exert a force against the wall attempting to accelerate, the wall is going to exert an opposite force on me keeping me stationary. The same way web is going to exert an opposite force on me keeping me stationary when i try and move away from it. Both are impeding my movement when I am trying to move against them.
Let's use a dungeon, it's easiest for examples.

Two rooms are seperated by a 10 x 100 foot corridor. I stand in the entrance of one room, you stand in the entrance to the other. I cast a Wall of Force 10 feet away from me, into the corridor. Now that corridor is 10x90, from your perspective, and is a dead end. From mine, it's now a 10x10 nook of the room I'm in. This has altered the dimensions of the areas we're in. THAT is what FoM doesn't work on.

Talic
2008-05-01, 07:49 AM
Wall of force does not impede movement. It does not affect movement in any way.

It prevents people from moving between 2 specific squares, but that is not the same as the other examples.

Paralysis prevents you from moving, check.

Solid fog allows you to enter, but slows you.

Grease requires a save or fall (unaffected by FoM, save vs fall still required), and requires that you make balance checks to move at half speed (both are effects that impede movement, so both would be prevented).

Slow limits the amount of actions you may take, which affects the distance you may move.

Web restricts movement, and lowers movement, and provides cover. The first two effects would be negated. The third would not.

Wall of force doesn't limit movement for creatures. It merely makes a wall that can't be moved through. Freedom of Movement will not let you walk through walls, avalanches, closed doors, or the like. These don't impede your movement. They limit your choices of where you may move, but they don't impact your movement in any way.

sikyon
2008-05-01, 07:58 AM
They limit your choices of where you may move, but they don't impact your movement in any way.


No, they limit the choices of how you may move. You can still move through a wall of force if you are ethreal, but you have to be ethreal which is a how. Same way fog limits how you move (changes your speed) wall of force changes how you move (has to be around it, or in another state).




Main Entry:
im·pede Listen to the pronunciation of impede
Pronunciation:
\im-ˈpēd\
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
im·ped·ed; im·ped·ing
Etymology:
Latin impedire, from in- + ped-, pes foot — more at foot
Date:
circa 1595

: to interfere with or slow the progress of

Wall of force is definatly interfering with your progress.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-01, 07:58 AM
Wall of force does not impede movement. It does not affect movement in any way.

It prevents people from moving between 2 specific squares, but that is not the same as the other examples.

[snip further examples]
Okay, I think I understand the details of how the spell works, now. Thanks.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 08:01 AM
No, they limit the choices of how you may move. You can still move through a wall of force if you are ethreal, but you have to be ethreal which is a how. Same way fog limits how you move (changes your speed) wall of force changes how you move (has to be around it, or in another state).

By this definition, ordinary walls are subject to Freedom of Movement.

Or if you want to be cute, weird walls with unusual decorations or shapes.

sikyon
2008-05-01, 08:03 AM
By this definition, ordinary walls are subject to Freedom of Movement.

Or if you want to be cute, weird walls with unusual decorations or shapes.

I support that definition as the RAW definition, cute or not. FoM is a spell which is consistently houseruled without people even knowing.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 08:05 AM
As walls aren't considered 'effects', even by RAW that ruling falls apart.

And honestly..

http://xkcd.com/169/

Saph
2008-05-01, 08:06 AM
This is one of those cases where you have to look at the intention of the spell, not just its wording. I think the intention of Freedom of Movement is to ignore paralysis-, entangle-, binding-, and slow-type effects. It's fairly clear that it's not designed to let you walk through solid walls.

You can interpret it otherwise, but be ready for an awful lot of annoyance from other players when you start arguing it in-game.

- Saph

sikyon
2008-05-01, 08:11 AM
As walls aren't considered 'effects', even by RAW that ruling falls apart.

And honestly..

http://xkcd.com/169/

The force the wall exerts is an effect, besides, what do you define as an effect?

Rutee
2008-05-01, 08:16 AM
An Effect would be broadly defined as an alteration on a character or a battlefield property, caused by (Su), (Ex), (SLA), and (Spell) abilities, I would think. There's no quick definition in the SRD, and I'm not finding one elsewhere, so there we are on my definition.

There's no indication in the spell that it blocks walls. You're using an obtuse meaning of 'impede', which is contradicted in the FAQ, to obtain a houserule and call it RAW.

Epinephrine
2008-05-01, 08:23 AM
I support that definition as the RAW definition, cute or not. FoM is a spell which is consistently houseruled without people even knowing.

You are kidding, right? Your interpretation allows you to walk through people as well, since they prevent you occupying the same space as them. Clearly, FoM would allow you to stand in someone.

FoM is about normal movement - you can't normally walk through barriers and obstacles,whether the barrier is magical or not.

This rules-lawyering to say that one should walk through walls is absurd - why stop there? It should obviously make you invulnerable too, since injuries and death can impede movement. Any damage that would knock you unconscious or kill you is automatically negated, or it would impede your movement - what an obvious ruling, every 4th level spell should do that.

I can't believe anyone would suggest that FoM should allow walking through solid objects, countering of spells like Baleful Polymorph or Flesh to Stone, or that it should provide protection from mental effects that happen to affect movement.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 08:27 AM
As a lawyer in training, I resent that. This is rectal imagery so as to pass a bad houserule off as RAW, nothing more. 'Lawyering' would be applying strict wording..

..To text intended to be taken at its strictest.

Paul H
2008-05-01, 08:30 AM
Hi

Going back to the original question, I think there are three ways round it:
1) Put something physical in the way
2) Make them think there's something in the way
3) Do so much area affect damage quickly they don't have time to react.

Beguiler has a few of these. like Vertigo Field. Only allows save vs nausea (ftr types probably pass), but counts the area as difficult terrain. (No charges, etc). Since this is all in the mind, FoM doesn't count, as per FAQ.

This weekend I'm in a few Living Greyhawk games, with my Clr/Warmage/Mystic Theurge, and his Wiz/Beguiler cohort. Hopefully my Fireballs & his Mass Whelms will take the bad guys down quickly, otherwise it's Evard's Tentacles & Vertigo Field.

In one of our home games we have a Druid who summons Huge Elementals. A Huge Earth Elemental can provide quite an obstacle that even FoM won't budge!

Cheers
Paul H

sikyon
2008-05-01, 08:34 AM
I've said what I have to say on this. By RAW, unsual effects such as artifical walls can be passed through. You can't pass through people because you usually can't anyways. There is no quick definition by RAW so we use the english definition. Anyone who contests that... well, I really have no interest in arguing with them.

Artemician
2008-05-01, 08:56 AM
The ground impedes your movement, technically.

You can't move through it, just as you can't move through a wall. Therefore anyone with FoM cast on him without a method of flight will plummet through the ground to a swift and painful death.

Ahh.. good times.

Funkyodor
2008-05-01, 09:02 AM
Plus, if the flight was ever dispelled, the FoM would nullify the float effect and Feather Fall would fail. So then off you go to the center of the world.

valadil
2008-05-01, 09:06 AM
Regarding FoMing to the ocean floor ... I think it's silly.

However I do not think it's silly that freedom of movement would let you wade through a waist high swamp. That seems to be the purpose of the spell. Why then is the swamp water treated differently than ocean water? Movement types. Your movement in a swamp is walking. The water impedes your walk speed so FoM bypasses it. In the ocean however you're using your swim speed for movement. The water doesn't impede your swim speed, it enables it. Fly speed, climb speed, burrow speed, and anything else I may have missed are additional movement types. When FoM refers to "your movement" it means whichever of those movement types you are currently using. So it will let you swim without seaweed slowing you down or it will let you walk through a swamp at normal speed. At least that's my interpretation of it.

Danzaver
2008-05-01, 09:30 AM
Regarding FoMing to the ocean floor ... I think it's silly.

However I do not think it's silly that freedom of movement would let you wade through a waist high swamp. That seems to be the purpose of the spell. Why then is the swamp water treated differently than ocean water? Movement types. Your movement in a swamp is walking. The water impedes your walk speed so FoM bypasses it. In the ocean however you're using your swim speed for movement. The water doesn't impede your swim speed, it enables it. Fly speed, climb speed, burrow speed, and anything else I may have missed are additional movement types. When FoM refers to "your movement" it means whichever of those movement types you are currently using. So it will let you swim without seaweed slowing you down or it will let you walk through a swamp at normal speed. At least that's my interpretation of it.

I see what you are saying, but it could be argued that in the example I mentioned, the water is impeding your 'fall' movement. Therefore FoM would kick in.

Yes, it is silly tough - i am reminded of the time in Knights of the Dinner Table that Brian used a rules loophole to suspend gravity on the entire world...

valadil
2008-05-01, 10:01 AM
I see what you are saying, but it could be argued that in the example I mentioned, the water is impeding your 'fall' movement. Therefore FoM would kick in.

Yes, it is silly tough - i am reminded of the time in Knights of the Dinner Table that Brian used a rules loophole to suspend gravity on the entire world...

Do characters actually have a fall movement though? I thought that was just what happened if they were above the ground and didn't have fly speed. Technically speaking characters fall to the ground instantly regardless of the speed, so does that make the hypothetical fall speed infinite?

Someone could argue that gravity is impeding their movement to move up. I don't think that means that FoM includes flying as one of its effects.

I apologize for the tangent though. I'd really like to get back to how a controller wizard can defeat FoM effected enemies. I realize that that does depend on DM interpretation so maybe we could list that with each suggestion against FoM rather than derailing this into a thread about FoM itself?

captainkubrik
2008-05-01, 10:27 AM
No, they limit the choices of how you may move. You can still move through a wall of force if you are ethreal, but you have to be ethreal which is a how. Same way fog limits how you move (changes your speed) wall of force changes how you move (has to be around it, or in another state).


A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings).

Wall of Force allows nothing physical or ethereal through it, not even ethereal creatures. FoM is not a teleport, dimension door, or similar effect. FoM does not grant flight or etherealness to move around the wall. By RAW, Wall of Force trumps FoM.


I apologize for the tangent though. I'd really like to get back to how a controller wizard can defeat FoM effected enemies. I realize that that does depend on DM interpretation so maybe we could list that with each suggestion against FoM rather than derailing this into a thread about FoM itself?

Dispel Magic. Greater Dispel Magic. Hold Person. Dominate Person. Sleep. Deep Slumber. Confusion. Polymorph Any Object. Power Word: Blind.

There are any number of spells that will affect someone using FoM that don't affect movement but will affect any number of different aspects of what they do, especially mind affecting spells. Dominate whomever is using FoM and they are suddenly on your side. Etc.

Blue Paladin
2008-05-01, 02:40 PM
Do characters actually have a fall movement though? I thought that was just what happened if they were above the ground and didn't have fly speed. Technically speaking characters fall to the ground instantly regardless of the speed, so does that make the hypothetical fall speed infinite?I believe you fall 150' in the first round, 300' in subsequent rounds. This is mentioned in the Combat in Three Dimensions section, under Minimum Forward Speed.


I've said what I have to say on this. By RAW, unsual effects such as artifical walls can be passed through.By that same RAW to which you're referring, non-unusual effects can also be passed through. This is the thrust of Rutee's counterargument.

For my own counterexample, let's say your character is under the effects of FoM, and is chasing my BBEG down a tunnel.

Situation A) He casts Wall of Force between you, and by your interpretation, you walk straight through the Wall of Force. I hope I am summarizing your position accurately?

Situation B) He casts Wall of Stone between you, and by your interpretation, you walk straight through the Wall of Stone. A different magical effect, but a movement impediment all the same.

Situation C) BBEG causes the roof of the tunnel to collapse between you. Here now is a mass of mundane stone impeding your movement (to use loaded terminology). It is certainly "unusual" to find such in a tunnel. How does FoM affect you in this case?


You can't pass through people because you usually can't anyways.Actually I believe Epinephrine's specific argument was for passing through another person's square, as the fact of their being there precluded you from sharing their square. This is not quite accurate, as you can share squares with other creatures (e.g. squeezing, grappling), and even pass through enemy squares with a high enough Tumble check.

This then has a direct correlation to your argument against Grease. Your specific argument ran thus: "By forcing you to roll a save for not being able to move your full speed, grease is impeding your movement."

Moving through a Greased area forces a Balance check. Similarly, moving through an opponent's square forces a Tumble check. You argue in favor of FoM working against the first instance; what is your stance on the second?

Keld Denar
2008-05-01, 04:48 PM
Hmmm, Freedom of Movement, the inspiration behind the early "no clipping" cheat codes for PC games. Walls....only for decoration now!