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Enlong
2008-04-30, 07:50 PM
First things first. If you are in my gaming group, stop here and read no further. Jeff, Lee, Travis, Phil, you know who you are.

OK. So I'm designing a desert-based scenario for what is... sort of my first outing as DM. I've designed a fairly good dungeon, based around the location and retrieval of the MacGuffin (in this case, a powerful gem which is said to hold immense power, among them, the bringing of rain to parched desert areas).

Ever since the dungeon's inception, I've had a fairly good idea for the dungeon's final trap. As soon as the PCs pluck the gem from the pillar that it stands on, the magic radiating from it into the dungeon (characterized by regular pulses of gold through the walls) stops, and the dungeon can no longer hold together; in short, the whole structure begins to turn to sand and collapse around them, leaving naught but a pile of sand at the place where a dungeon once stood.

I want the place to collapse outward, starting from the innermost chamber, and finishing at the outer gate. This way, the PCs will have to outrun the collapsing dungeon to escape. This is a kind of finisher I like: big, dramatic, dangerous, with a sense of finality.

Now, what I ask is this. I have the idea, but I have no clue how to stat this trap. What sort of damage should the falling sand deal? At what rate should the collapse chase the PCs out to give them a sense of urgency with a chance of escape? Should I have minor monsters appear to slow the PCs up? Could the PCs conceivably survive getting buried if they fail to escape? I need some answers, as well as any critique or advice you have, if you would.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 07:59 PM
For rate, I'd say start it slow for about 2 rounds, then have it accelerate. 30' in round 1, 50' in round 2, and then 10' less than their party run speed (the speed of the Dwarf after buffing). Beware Teleport. If you're mean, scatter all sorts of valuables around the gem, but make them too heavy for the party to move out if there is any sort of time limit. maybe let them grab some gold and such, but have them know there is other stuff they couldn't quite carry buried. As for damage, what is their party level and the HP of the guy with the lowest move speed?

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-30, 08:02 PM
Not sure on how much damage it should do, but be sure to familiarize yourself with the suffocation rules.

And rather than adding in minor monsters to slow the PCs down, just have the place collapse faster as it goes. (Like, start with increasingly larger parts of each room collapsing every round until eventually entire rooms are collapsing at once towards the end of the dungeon.)

Nice idea BTW.

FlyMolo
2008-04-30, 08:05 PM
Draw up a map of the dungeon on graph paper or something, and starting from the mcguffin, just cross out enough squares each time. 5' is probably too slow, but it depends how much the dungeon switchbacks. 10 feet is a good one. You might even have it accelerate, depending on how the dungeon is laid out. You know, 200 feet every round for the last 300 foot sprint down the entrance corridor.

Also watch out for those PCs with 15 foot land speed. They're toast.

As far as actual stats go, squares become "falling sand squares" for a round or two. Just make them difficult terrain, and maybe 1 damage from abrasiveness. After 2 rounds of being FSS, have the ceiling fall in completely. A d6 for every HD the pcs have. (they shouldn't be buried), successful reflex save DC 15-20 or so moves them into a nearby square. (let the PC choose which one) If that one's falling in, roll another save. Repeat. If they actually get buried under the sand, just write them off. The only squares available will fall in in one round, or already have, so getting them out is nigh impossible.

Enlong
2008-04-30, 08:08 PM
Hm. Teleport. Yes. For the majority of the dungeon, Teleport will be blocked by the energies of the gem, but I'm not sure how to prevent it after the pluck the thing. In respect to the idea of treasure nastiness. I had an even nastier plan to pile on top of it.
the really heavy treasure? It's also tied to the dungeon, so if they manage to drag it out, they find their pockets full of sand.
I love your accellerating trap dungeon ideas. Great idea. Constant speed collapse is too boring.

The party will be (miraculously), four people of level 10. I'm not sure of the party's move speeds and stuff, since only one person has given me their concept, but I know that one of the characters will be a Kobold Sorcerer/Sandshaper.

Oh. Yeah. The Sandshaper. I don't have access to Sandstorm yet (I will tomorrow, hopefully), but will a trap of this magnitude be ruined by the Sandshaper? I may want to rethink it if he can just cast a spell to bend my trap into nothingness.

Edit: Oh. My. Gosh. FlyMolo, you are awesome! That is awesome stuff. Though I may need to boost the dimensions of my dungeon a bit. I currently have most rooms traversable in a round without running.

AlterForm
2008-04-30, 08:14 PM
For teleport, why not just keep the gem preventing it? Sure, it isn't "powering" the dungeon anymore, but it's still magical, isn't it? You could call it a Dimensional Lock spell the size of the dungeon, give or take.

expirement10K14
2008-04-30, 08:16 PM
Sand shaper shouldn't be a problem unless you don't like sand castles, although any asherati have the ability to basically say No, and precede to swim through the sand.

Enlong
2008-04-30, 08:21 PM
Sand shaper shouldn't be a problem unless you don't like sand castles, although any asherati have the ability to basically say No, and precede to swim through the sand.

Asherati, huh? Sandstorm?

What about Sandstorm-specific sand-based spells? I heard that that's one of the best things that Sandshapers get; you have any experience with those?

As a side note, thanks to all of you for your suggestions. It feels good to have a cool trap like this be makable.

One more question: should the PCs get XP for escaping this trap? And if so, how much?

sonofzeal
2008-04-30, 08:27 PM
The collapsing wavefront should always move at the speed of plot. As DM, it's your job to make them feel like they're in mortal danger and then narrowly survive, and that sort of finesse can't be handled by static numbers. Tweaking those things as you go is part of your job as DM, otherwise it's liable to become too hard or too easy very rapidly.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 08:27 PM
Asherati, huh? Sandstorm?

What about Sandstorm-specific sand-based spells? I heard that that's one of the best things that Sandshapers get; you have any experience with those?

As a side note, thanks to all of you for your suggestions. It feels good to have a cool trap like this be makable.

One more question: should the PCs get XP for escaping this trap? And if so, how much?Yes, they should, and if you set it up with them able to survive as long as they aren't morons, then it is a CR-appropriate encounter. According to the D20 XP Calculator (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm), 750 XP. And don't forget the additional bonus for finishing a dungeon and a story arc. And remember to watch WBL, because the trap will be giving none.

Carrion_Humanoid
2008-04-30, 08:27 PM
Also, if the sand catches up with them, make the sand make a trip check, and then if the sand goes over them a suffocate check.

FlyMolo
2008-04-30, 08:28 PM
Edit: Oh. My. Gosh. FlyMolo, you are awesome! That is awesome stuff. Though I may need to boost the dimensions of my dungeon a bit. I currently have most rooms traversable in a round without running.

Oh cool! Praise! You can arbitrarily slow or accelerate the dungeon's collapse, so a dungeon of lots of small rooms might collapse at an average room's width/round.

And if someone has an excellent and amazing reflex save, they might jump 20-30 feet. This is weird, but only to be expected.

Sholos
2008-04-30, 08:33 PM
The big thing I can see going wrong is if you make it collapse too quickly and kill of the entire party. That won't be fun. Therefore, I agree with the "speed of plot" idea.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 08:37 PM
The big thing I can see going wrong is if you make it collapse too quickly and kill of the entire party. That won't be fun. Therefore, I agree with the "speed of plot" idea.Whereas if the speed is increasing and decreasing to save my life, as a Player I get annoyed. Trust them not to act like idiots.

Enlong
2008-04-30, 08:38 PM
Right. I'll watch for Reflex Saves. I'll remember the fact that arbitrary increase or decrease is a good thing. I'll make sure that they're in narrow peril.

I suppose I should have the Maze trap I have set up shut off with the removal of the gem. Otherwise I'll have an unlucky player die after failing Will.

As for Wealth, there'll be riches inside the dungeon before the sand trap, and reward from plot-based NPCs can offset the loss of Wealth from the trap.

Szilard
2008-04-30, 08:58 PM
Mind if I use the dungeon crumbling Idea? Though I should probably just through in a flaywind.

Enlong
2008-04-30, 09:59 PM
Sure, you can use the idea.

And I think I will go back to FlyMolo's set acceleration idea. Makes more logical sense, and with the magical traps deactivated, I shouldn't have to worry about too much trouble with the PCs getting out in time. Though I think that the heavy treasure is a nice little needle to throw at them, and woe betide anyone who chooses to play a dwarf, or wear Heavy armor.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-30, 10:20 PM
For teleport, why not just keep the gem preventing it? Sure, it isn't "powering" the dungeon anymore, but it's still magical, isn't it? You could call it a Dimensional Lock spell the size of the dungeon, give or take.

As an added bonus, they have to walk all the way back to their employer, sans teleport, all the while harried by hostile wildlife, NPCs that want the MacGuffin themselves, and disgruntled wizards who want to know why their teleportation has suddenly failed.

Cuddly
2008-04-30, 10:24 PM
Teleport spells- something in the proximity of the mcguffin blocks teleport spells.

Collin152
2008-04-30, 10:28 PM
Or the MacGuffin leaves residual teleport-blocking abjuration for a while afterwards.
It stops generating it, but they can't teleport out.

Enlong
2008-04-30, 10:32 PM
As an added bonus, they have to walk all the way back to their employer, sans teleport, all the while harried by hostile wildlife, NPCs that want the MacGuffin themselves, and disgruntled wizards who want to know why their teleportation has suddenly failed.

YES.
invisible 10chars

The Sandman
2008-04-30, 10:33 PM
As an added bonus, they have to walk all the way back to their employer, sans teleport, all the while harried by hostile wildlife, NPCs that want the MacGuffin themselves, and disgruntled wizards who want to know why their teleportation has suddenly failed.

Let's not even get into any outsiders who might be trying to enter or exit the region at the time...

And how might this interact with summon spells? A real neat trick might be having the monsters not attacking the players so much as tripping them up in the process of freeing the collapse themselves. Then allow the possibility of the party picking up a critter or two as animal companions while they still have the gem. The reason? Those animals were summons tied to the dungeon by the gem's power; if they get too far away from the gem, either they're unsummoned or they simply vanish.

Venerable
2008-05-01, 01:52 PM
Here's a different idea. Instead of Indiana Jones, think Hitchcock. Make the collapse slow enough that the party could escape it with just a little hussle, but balance that with monsters/traps that slow them down enough that what seems an easy walk to safety becomes an tension-filled struggle against an inexorable foe. The idea is to *slowly* ratchet up the tension level until the players are biting their fingernails with worry.

Once the maguffin's removed, the collapse begins very slowly: a trickle of sand here, another a few rounds later. After enough of this happens, the players will realize they need to Get Out. (Having lots of heavy but intriguing things in the main chamber could keep them there a while.) Up the frequency of the trickles until the main chamber is starting to collapse, but slowly. Keep accelerating the collapse until it's about walking speed. The players will think "Okay, this isn't good, but we shouldn't have a problem escaping." Then throw a few unsprung traps and wandering monsters at them to slow them down, turning a cakewalk into peril.

For example, you could make a room that's easy to traverse when entering the dungeon, but hard to traverse when leaving (e.g. the floor descends after they've passed through it the first time). Or a doorway that's replaced by a wall, forcing the party to backtrack through a collapsing section. Lotsa evil DM opportunities to be had here.

Gnomish Lab
2008-05-01, 03:07 PM
First of all, Enlong, this is a great idea!

Now, concerning the speed of the collapse - I agree that it should be "at the speed of plt", i.e. I think you shouldn't have a fixed collapse speed and track it. On the other hand I agree with Sstoopidtallkid, who wrote:


Whereas if the speed is increasing and decreasing to save my life, as a Player I get annoyed. Trust them not to act like idiots.

So, this is what I would do:

First some assumptions - I guess the players will have to make some decisions while escaping the dungeon , like evading traps, navigating the dungeon ect. , things that have the possibility to slow them down; Otherwise, it's just you describing the collapse and they telling you that their characters run.

Next, I'll decide how many "delays" I will allow them - that is, how many wrong steps (that delay them in escaping) they can make and still get out - and of course , some mistakes can cost them more then one "delay points"

Let's say I'm giving them 7 "delay points". I describe the collapse, and they start to run - they are still very ahead of it - so few ill effects (like sand tripping them and all those other examples given above) if any. If they start to do things that delay them - like starting to loot the room, I'll start deducting those "delay points" - and with the number going down, so will the effects of the collapse will become harsher. When the "delay points" reach -1 they have delayed too much and won't be able to reach the outside before the dungeon collapses.

Grug
2008-05-01, 04:00 PM
There's a section in the DMG on Landslides. Should be perfect for you.

I like the tradition of a load-bearing MacGuffin. Way to stick to your routes.

Enlong
2008-05-01, 05:37 PM
Thanks Grug. Would you believe I just found that today? Heh. Also, I love Venerable's idea on the slowly, slowly accelerating collapse idea. With my new idea of a maze area in the dungeon, and a few wandering monsters and unsprung traps, I could have some nasty delays for them, and make this last part of the dungeon one to remember.

On a slightly related note? Sandstorm is an awesome supplement book. Oh my gosh. It's given me some awesome monster ideas, not to mention some nasty traps to employ.

Szilard
2008-05-01, 06:26 PM
On a slightly related note? Sandstorm is an awesome supplement book. Oh my gosh. It's given me some awesome monster ideas, not to mention some nasty traps to employ.

I got that book last week, it is awesome.:smallbiggrin:

Jastermereel
2008-05-02, 11:14 AM
Is this a single-story dungeon? You could have them encounter Z-dimentional dilemmas. Rooms in the floor below them have collapsed and force them to backtrack to find another way out. Or you could have rooms above them open up partially; is it better to try to slowly climb to a potential shortcut or to keep running and hoping for stairs? And nothing says disintegrating dungeon fun like a receding floor falling away as the players race for the other side.

Venerable
2008-05-02, 01:10 PM
Enlong, after you run this, please tell us what you decided on and how it turned out. Inquiring minds want to know.

Enlong
2008-05-02, 02:37 PM
Sure. I'll be running this thing in a coupla weeks, and then I'll check back. As for this being single-story? No. I've decided on making this part of an ongoing sandstorm campaign. I've already figured out who created the dungeon, and vaguely why. It's gonna be awesome.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 02:51 PM
Sure. I'll be running this thing in a coupla weeks, and then I'll check back. As for this being single-story? No. I've decided on making this part of an ongoing sandstorm campaign. I've already figured out who created the dungeon, and vaguely why. It's gonna be awesome.:smallconfused:

I think he meant single level:smallwink:

Enlong
2008-05-02, 03:03 PM
:smallconfused:

I think he meant single level:smallwink:

Oh. Well... same answer. 3 levels, two of which can be potentially fatally slowing.