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Tyger
2008-04-30, 09:26 PM
If anyone has any ideas on this build I would be very much appreciative...

We're playing a short pirate themed game and I am planning on (after watching The Forbidden Kingdom this week) creating a semi-mystical warrior/monk/assassin character.

The build is standard 32 point build, ECL 10 with the following houserules:
Backgrounds from the UA are in but you just chose an appropriate background, get one of the feats it grants for free and one skill from the list at +2
Flaws from the UA are in (one flaw, must be chosen at first level)
Once you gain a skill as a class skill, you never lose it (so no need for Able Learner)
UA unarmoured AC bonus is in
Books allowed is almost anything, pending DM approval
Character Traits from the UA are also in.

I was originally going to go with a Rogue / Swashbuckler and go the Daring Outlaw route, but now our resident powergamer has decided to play a Whisper Gnome Shadowcraft Mage... with all the associated twinks that go along with it, including hoodwinking the DM into giving him magical "stone" boots so that he can use the Earth Magic feats even at sea... yeah... damned power creep.

So, would a Rogue 3, Swordsage 7 be a decent build? I was thinking of the following feats: Two Weapon Fighting (level one)
Weapon Finesse (Background)
Combat Reflexes (Flaw)
Adaptive Style (Human)
Shadow Blade (Level three)
Quick Draw (for tossing daggers at light speed!) (Level six)
Gloom Razor or Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Level nine)

The idea being to focus on TWFing in Assassin's Stance for 4d6 SA damage, while also being able to add the +4 or +5 from DEX and maybe a point or two of STR damage as well to all those juicy rolls.

I don't want to go crazy with PrCs or powering it up too much, but the Shadowcraft Gnome is really going to be able to everything on its own and it would be really groovy if the character could at least contribute in a meaningful way. Any advice is appreciated, as I am a complete noob when it comes to ToB.

Thanks in advance!

Cuddly
2008-04-30, 09:35 PM
Just grab 3 levels of swashbuckler and daring outlaw, and stay in the stance that gives you 2d6 sneak attack damage. IMO, that'd be better combat wise for you than 3 levels of rogue, since you'll also get int to damage, more BAB, and the same number of sneak attack dice. Nothing in the daring outlaw feat description says you need rogue levels :smallwink:

Also, if you really want to go the powergame route, make sure you pump UMD and use a wand of wraithstrike. Along with a ring of blinking + the mage slayer feats, you're never going to miss hitting your opponent for a lot of damage.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 09:36 PM
See if you can get the Spiked Chain from Shadow Hand changed to a Kusari Gama, then TWF that and play Battlefield Control.

Tyger
2008-04-30, 10:45 PM
Just grab 3 levels of swashbuckler and daring outlaw, and stay in the stance that gives you 2d6 sneak attack damage. IMO, that'd be better combat wise for you than 3 levels of rogue, since you'll also get int to damage, more BAB, and the same number of sneak attack dice. Nothing in the daring outlaw feat description says you need rogue levels :smallwink:

Also, if you really want to go the powergame route, make sure you pump UMD and use a wand of wraithstrike. Along with a ring of blinking + the mage slayer feats, you're never going to miss hitting your opponent for a lot of damage.

Daring Outlaw doesn't work like that. It just allows your rogue and swashbuckler levels to stack for SA determination. A swash / swordsage would only have the SA of the Assassin's Stance.

Cuddly
2008-04-30, 10:48 PM
Rogue levels = 0
Swashbuckler levels = 3
Swashbuckler levels count as rogue levels for sneak attack, uncanny dodge, etc.
3+0 = 3
This gives you 2d6 sneak attack.

Tyger
2008-04-30, 11:09 PM
Rogue levels = 0
Swashbuckler levels = 3
Swashbuckler levels count as rogue levels for sneak attack, uncanny dodge, etc.
3+0 = 3
This gives you 2d6 sneak attack.

Sorry, but that is not what it says. I am not sure that I can quote the actual text here, but it only allows your rogue and swashbuckler levels to stack to determine your SA dice. That's it. If you have no rogue levels, it doesn't do much for you. It does not say that your swashbuckler levels count as rogue, merely that they stack.

While you are free to interpret it that was for your game, that's certainly not RAW. Or even, daresay, RAI.

Cuddly
2008-04-30, 11:17 PM
Stacking = addition, if you didn't know.
Stacking 3 levels on no levels is... how many levels? Three? Three.

Tyger
2008-04-30, 11:55 PM
Stacking = addition, if you didn't know.
Stacking 3 levels on no levels is... how many levels? Three? Three.

Yes, but if you have 0d6 from your 0 rogue levels, and you add 0d6 from stacking your swashbuckler levels, you have... 0d6 SA dice.

I see your point, I just don't think that is how its written, nor how it is intended. No where in that feat does it say that your swashbuckler levels stack with SA from any other class/item/feat/ability. It specifies that your Swashbuckler and Rogue levels stack for purposes of determining your SA dice. That is it. If the feat read "Swashbuckler levels count as rogue levels for determining any SA dice from any source" then I would agree with you. Or even if the text indicated that they were added to each other, rather than stacking... stacking implies that they rest upon one another... you can't "stack" a block on top of nothing now can you? You need to "stack" two or more things on top of one another... not on nothing.

An argument can be made for your interpretation, but I don't think its an argument based on the rules, or on a reasonable interpretation of the text of the feat.

Cuddly
2008-05-01, 12:25 AM
Yes, but if you have 0d6 from your 0 rogue levels, and you add 0d6 from stacking your swashbuckler levels, you have... 0d6 SA dice.

I see your point, I just don't think that is how its written, nor how it is intended. No where in that feat does it say that your swashbuckler levels stack with SA from any other class/item/feat/ability. It specifies that your Swashbuckler and Rogue levels stack for purposes of determining your SA dice. That is it. If the feat read "Swashbuckler levels count as rogue levels for determining any SA dice from any source" then I would agree with you. Or even if the text indicated that they were added to each other, rather than stacking... stacking implies that they rest upon one another... you can't "stack" a block on top of nothing now can you? You need to "stack" two or more things on top of one another... not on nothing.

An argument can be made for your interpretation, but I don't think its an argument based on the rules, or on a reasonable interpretation of the text of the feat.

I agree that it's not RAI.

Mewtarthio
2008-05-01, 12:50 AM
Yes, but if you have 0d6 from your 0 rogue levels, and you add 0d6 from stacking your swashbuckler levels, you have... 0d6 SA dice.

Strictly speaking, this would mean that the feat is worthless, since you'd always have 0d6 SA dice from Swashbuckler, and SA dice stack from all sources anyway.

In my opinion, this is just an example of an oversight in the rules. Change the feat prereqs to include Rouge 1, and you're set.

SCPRedMage
2008-05-01, 01:57 AM
Just grab 3 levels of swashbuckler and daring outlaw, and stay in the stance that gives you 2d6 sneak attack damage. IMO, that'd be better combat wise for you than 3 levels of rogue, since you'll also get int to damage, more BAB, and the same number of sneak attack dice. Nothing in the daring outlaw feat description says you need rogue levels :smallwink:

Also, if you really want to go the powergame route, make sure you pump UMD and use a wand of wraithstrike. Along with a ring of blinking + the mage slayer feats, you're never going to miss hitting your opponent for a lot of damage.
Yeah, that's a pretty good idea.

Wait, what's that, Morbo?


ASSASSIN'S STANCE DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT!

Having a Assassin's Stance doesn't count as Sneak Attack for ANY prerequisites, any more than a wizard qualifies for Flyby Attack or Wingover by virtue of having the Fly spell.

Tyger
2008-05-01, 05:17 AM
Having a Assassin's Stance doesn't count as Sneak Attack for ANY prerequisites, any more than a wizard qualifies for Flyby Attack or Wingover by virtue of having the Fly spell.

Actually, I think that is inaccurate. Its been pretty well settled that temporary advantages (like stat boosting equipment, etc) can qualify you for feats and the like, though you lose the advantage, and use of, the feat if you do not have the bonus for some reason.

Eldariel
2008-05-01, 10:22 AM
I'd suggest dropping Rogue-levels unless you plan on Skill Monkeying with those skills. If that's the case, I'd take one level of Martial Rogue and one level of Warblade; Stormguard Warrior should really work out for you. Other than that, focus on Tiger Claw, get some transportation and get tons of levels in Swordsage. Consider Improved Trip or some such for more battlefield control and use your Strikes as control. Setting Sun especially works great with this; Dex-based Trips (Throws actually, but resolved as Trip-checks) that deal damage and move the opponent.

Tyger
2008-05-01, 11:18 AM
I'd suggest dropping Rogue-levels unless you plan on Skill Monkeying with those skills. If that's the case, I'd take one level of Martial Rogue and one level of Warblade; Stormguard Warrior should really work out for you. Other than that, focus on Tiger Claw, get some transportation and get tons of levels in Swordsage. Consider Improved Trip or some such for more battlefield control and use your Strikes as control. Setting Sun especially works great with this; Dex-based Trips (Throws actually, but resolved as Trip-checks) that deal damage and move the opponent.

Yeah, I was thinking of that this morning, going just pure Swordsage... it seems to me that a level 10 Swordsage can pull out some pretty nasty combinations. The only reason for the Rogue levels originally was for extra SA dice, but those can be granted in any number of ways, so maybe that is a bit of a blind route.

So, with that in mind, how about, as Reel suggested in another swordsage thread, Swordsage 10, focusing on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, utilizing TWF out the wazzoo? That would give access to the level 5 manuevers of Pouncing Charge + Dancing Mongoose while in the Shadow Assassin stance, for a total of 6 attacks, all with 2d6 extra damage on them... that could add up pretty damned quick!

And I really like the idea of the jumping abilities of the Tiger Claw set. I think that would fit in quite thematically with the pirate idea. BOuncing off the ropes and gangplanks to land on her enemies and deliver devestating blows... :)

SCPRedMage
2008-05-01, 06:08 PM
Actually, I think that is inaccurate. Its been pretty well settled that temporary advantages (like stat boosting equipment, etc) can qualify you for feats and the like, though you lose the advantage, and use of, the feat if you do not have the bonus for some reason.
The only thing I've seen like that is stat-boosting equipment counting towards feats. There is a HUGE difference between a Belt of Giant's Strength +4 giving you the strength you need to pull off Power Attack, and being able to cast Bull's Strength.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-01, 06:16 PM
Having a Assassin's Stance doesn't count as Sneak Attack for ANY prerequisites, any more than a wizard qualifies for Flyby Attack or Wingover by virtue of having the Fly spell.

Sure it does--you just lose the benefit of whatever requires Sneak Attack when you're not in Assassin's Stance.

Oh, and a wizard does qualify for Flyby Attack by virtue of Fly, Overland Flight, etc.

SCPRedMage
2008-05-01, 06:47 PM
Sure it does--you just lose the benefit of whatever requires Sneak Attack when you're not in Assassin's Stance.

Oh, and a wizard does qualify for Flyby Attack by virtue of Fly, Overland Flight, etc.
Do you have Sneak Attack, or do you have a martial stance that can grant Sneak Attack? Does the wizard have a fly speed, or does he have a spell that can grant one? If you were to list all of your abilities on your character sheet, would you list Sneak Attack/Fly speed, or would you list something else? There's a fine line between the two, but the line exists.

That being said, letting a wizard take feats to improve his flying abilities while he's under the effects of one of those spells would most certainly NOT be broken. Granting a Sneak Attack progression out of nowhere most certainly IS broken. No GM in his right mind would EVER allow that.

Cuddly
2008-05-01, 07:09 PM
Do you really have a move speed, or are merely granted one when not under the effects of a Hold Person spell?

See how silly your argument is? Everything in D&D is conditional.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-01, 07:19 PM
Do you have Sneak Attack, or do you have a martial stance that can grant Sneak Attack? Does the wizard have a fly speed, or does he have a spell that can grant one? If you were to list all of your abilities on your character sheet, would you list Sneak Attack/Fly speed, or would you list something else? There's a fine line between the two, but the line exists.
When you are in the stance (which you can be 24/7, for years), you HAVE sneak attack. When you're not, you don't. When you stop having sneak attack, you stop qualifying for the feat and *all* your sneak attack progression goes away until you get back into the stance.
This is no different from qualifying for Power Attack via Gauntlets of Ogre Strength. We know that works.

When the wizard casts Overland Flight or Fly, he HAS a fly speed. So he can take Flyby Attack... he just can't use it when he doesn't have a fly speed (oh nos).


That being said, letting a wizard take feats to improve his flying abilities while he's under the effects of one of those spells would most certainly NOT be broken. Granting a Sneak Attack progression out of nowhere most certainly IS broken. No GM in his right mind would EVER allow that.
Actually, Flyby Attack in the hands of a wizard is a lot more powerful than Daring Outlaw in a Swordsage's hands. The wizard casts Flight of the Dragon, getting a 100' fly speed... and he can now zip in, hit you with a Close-range spell spell from 60' away, and then fly 100 feet back. Even with Fly's 60' fly speed, or Overland Flight's 40-foot, Flyby Attack is rather strong.

Letting Swordsage 3 qualify you for Daring Outlaw as well as Rogue 3 is in no way broken. Look, you have to have Swashbuckler 3 and spend a feat... in return for 2d6 sneak attack (since Rogue + Swashbuckler levels = 3, if you then keep taking swordsage). OH NOES, 2d6 sneak attack! IMO that's not even worth doing for most Swordsages.

Samakain
2008-05-01, 07:20 PM
having temporary bonus letting counting as pre-reqs is not only broken but silly. But how others wish to play these rules is not my business, i am of the opinion however that not only can it cause broken situations the decision itself is suspect, I realise how stances work but, if we take the wizard for example, are you always going to have access to that fly spell? you want to burn feats, those few and oh-so-precious things, base on something thats tempoary? i think this is a poor choice that can undermine a otherwise great character.

That being said, if you wish to do it, by all means proove me wrong :)

As for the build itself, i recently put together a 4th lvl rouge and 10 lvl sword sage for an upcomming campagin, should be jumping in this weekend. I found having some nice solid background roguing to have some seriously nice effects for a shadow hand/tigerclaw based sword sage. I think Death in the Dark is the last maneuver i get at lvl 10, 15D6 damage if they fail a fort save based off your wis, otherwise 5d6. that with 2d6 normal SA, 2d6 from Assass stance, comes off nice, the shadow teleportation as well, and the shadow garotte and nose strikes, normally scoffed at by my group are quite awsome as they require a ranged touch, meaning SA applies if your withing 30ft, 8d6+4d6SA and /then/ make a save or your flat footed for the next round? :D in which you burn a tiger claw strike and perform a pouncing charge

then with whats left, you make sausages :D

I suggest rouge and swordsage, while swash does have the BAB and you can take daring outlaw for it to stack it is an Int based class, sword sage is wis. i'm unsure what the mechanics are on the 32 point buy, but Dex, Con, Int, Wis is a large bowel to cover. Rouge/ Swordsage is Dex, Con, Wis and a tad of int for skills. your BAB suffers but if you dual light weapons your still getting multible attacks per round, and with improved theres a good chance you'll be exceeding some of your party members. High Dex, Weap Finesse and Shadow Blade means that those nasty dual minuses will mean next to nothing.

of course, it'll have to be a halfing, otherwise your breaking the cosmic rules of the universe and it will reject you, popping out out in some type of non-place where you will drift alone for all time
:D

Anyway, thats my 2 cents, or 5 considering the length of the ramble :)

Cheers

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:21 PM
Do you have Sneak Attack, or do you have a martial stance that can grant Sneak Attack? Does the wizard have a fly speed, or does he have a spell that can grant one? If you were to list all of your abilities on your character sheet, would you list Sneak Attack/Fly speed, or would you list something else? There's a fine line between the two, but the line exists.

That being said, letting a wizard take feats to improve his flying abilities while he's under the effects of one of those spells would most certainly NOT be broken. Granting a Sneak Attack progression out of nowhere most certainly IS broken. No GM in his right mind would EVER allow that.

Look at it this way;

Flyby Attack requires Flight, yes? You lose the benefit of it when not Flying?

Well. If a Swordsage has something that requires 2d6 of Sneak Attack.. they lose the benefit of it when not in Assassin Stance. Make sense, yes?

Samakain
2008-05-01, 07:24 PM
having temporary bonus letting counting as pre-reqs is not only broken but silly. But how others wish to play these rules is not my business, i am of the opinion however that not only can it cause broken situations the decision itself is suspect, I realise how stances work but, if we take the wizard for example, are you always going to have access to that fly spell? you want to burn feats, those few and oh-so-precious things, based on something thats tempoary? i think this is a poor choice that can undermine a otherwise great character.

That being said, if you wish to do it, by all means proove me wrong :)

As for the build itself, i recently put together a 4th lvl rouge and 11 lvl sword sage for an upcomming campagin, should be jumping in this weekend. I found having some nice solid background roguing to have some seriously nice effects for a shadow hand/tigerclaw based sword sage. I think Death in the Dark is the last maneuver i get at lvl 15, 15D6 damage if they fail a fort save based off your wis, otherwise 5d6. that with 2d6 normal SA, 2d6 from Assass stance, comes off nice, the shadow teleportation as well, and the shadow garotte and nose strikes, normally scoffed at by my group are quite awsome as they require a ranged touch, meaning SA applies if your withing 30ft, 8d6+4d6SA and /then/ make a save or your flat footed for the next round? :D in which you burn a tiger claw strike and perform a pouncing charge

then with whats left, you make sausages :D

I suggest rouge and swordsage, while swash does have the BAB and you can take daring outlaw for it to stack it is an Int based class, sword sage is wis. i'm unsure what the mechanics are on the 32 point buy, but Dex, Con, Int, Wis is a large bowel to cover. Rouge/ Swordsage is Dex, Con, Wis and a tad of int for skills. your BAB suffers but if you dual light weapons your still getting multible attacks per round, and with improved theres a good chance you'll be exceeding some of your party members. High Dex, Weap Finesse and Shadow Blade means that those nasty dual minuses will mean next to nothing.

of course, it'll have to be a halfing, otherwise your breaking the cosmic rules of the universe and it will reject you, popping out out in some type of non-place where you will drift alone for all time
:D

Anyway, thats my 2 cents, or 5 considering the length of the ramble :)

Cheers