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SamTheCleric
2008-05-01, 10:14 AM
I assume that means that they will be in the Monster Manual and probably have stats on how to make one as a PC... just without all the body feats... at least not yet.

(Today's Daily Art Preview)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080501_114875_0.jpg

Morty
2008-05-01, 10:16 AM
Nice piece of art, but personally, I hope Warforged stay out of Core. It's a futile hope though, I'm afraid.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 10:19 AM
Woo!

My guess is that they'll be in the Monster Manual I (like there won't be 17 different ones) with Gnomes and other Eberron-specific races. Either that or the 4e Eberron Campaign Setting is coming out a lot sooner than I would have expected, which meets with my approval.

Artanis
2008-05-01, 10:45 AM
I recall reading somewhere that they will indeed be in the Monster Manual. Damned if I remember where though :smallfrown:

Jerthanis
2008-05-01, 11:57 AM
I'm not sure if I want setting specific monsters in the core MM, but I really like Eberron, and will probably run an Eberron campaign in 4E before the new setting book is out, so I shouldn't complain.

The art is okay, but it seems more cartoony than some of the more classic style fantasy art I've seen bouncing around for 4E.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-01, 12:03 PM
Yay! Robots in my core D&D books... [/sarcasm]

Jerthanis, I agree with you about the art. The other stuff I've seen tended to look more classical and less cartoonish. However, this could mean that this picture of the Warforged isn't going to appear in the 4e MM but in the 4e ECS, if the ECS opts for a more cartoonish art style. I'm not getting my hopes up though.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-01, 12:38 PM
Yay! Robots in my core D&D books... [/sarcasm]


Ahem. In Monster Manual I of 3.5:
Shield Guardian, Golems, Inevitables, Retrievers are all robots. A case could even be made for the non-intelligent undead being organic robots.

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-01, 01:24 PM
I'm not sure if I want setting specific monsters in the core MM, but I really like Eberron, and will probably run an Eberron campaign in 4E before the new setting book is out, so I shouldn't complain.

The art is okay, but it seems more cartoony than some of the more classic style fantasy art I've seen bouncing around for 4E.
Just because something is introduced in a campaign setting, that doesn't make it setting specific.

Mewtarthio
2008-05-01, 01:29 PM
Ahem. In Monster Manual I of 3.5:
Shield Guardian, Golems, Inevitables, Retrievers are all robots. A case could even be made for the non-intelligent undead being organic robots.

Strictly speaking, Golems are just animate statues. Retrievers and Inevitables both have robotty feel to them, though.

Glawackus
2008-05-01, 01:34 PM
The Warforged were created by Man...
They Rebelled.
They Evolved.
There are many copies...
And they have a Plan.


All kidding aside, I did say "hey, it's like a D&D Centurion!" when I first saw this.
I kind of prefer the art from the Eberron Campaign Setting book to this.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-01, 01:47 PM
If I was excited about 4th ed, I'd be jumping for joy at the idea of running a Skynet spoof with modified warforged.

Ecalsneerg
2008-05-01, 02:03 PM
Yay! Robots in my core D&D books... [/sarcasm]

Someone's made the inevitable 'they're golems' point so I'll ask:

Do you use absolutely everything in the Monster Manual?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-01, 02:27 PM
Someone's made the inevitable 'they're golems' point so I'll ask:

Do you use absolutely everything in the Monster Manual?

I do. All at once. In. EVERY. Encounter. It helps that the party has a player for every class. Year three, and we're not even done with the first random encounter.

Pirate_King
2008-05-01, 02:27 PM
I rather like warforged. I'm more concerned about what I've heard about half-dragons as a base race. Is nothing sacred? please, someone tell me this is a base-less rumor...

SamTheCleric
2008-05-01, 02:29 PM
I rather like warforged. I'm more concerned about what I've heard about half-dragons as a base race. Is nothing sacred? please, someone tell me this is a base-less rumor...

Not half-dragons... Dragonborn. Kind of like the Dragonborn race from Races of Dragon, but naturally occuring instead of "divinely" created.

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-01, 02:38 PM
Mmmm, warforged, one of the few races I've really come to enjoy, along with thri-kreen.

...It says something about me that my preferred races lack a "human" mindset, doesn't it?

Artanis
2008-05-01, 02:41 PM
TBH, I think the picture looks almost identical to how Warforged were portrayed in the Eberron books. The glowing red eyes are the only difference that I can see, and that could easily be written off as anything from a class feature to a spell effect to a simple manufacturing error.

Storm Bringer
2008-05-01, 03:07 PM
I rather like warforged. I'm more concerned about what I've heard about half-dragons as a base race. Is nothing sacred? please, someone tell me this is a base-less rumor...

nope. I've seen the preview books, and dragonborn are a base race, as well as Tieflings, which are not only mainstream, but not particularlly evil as a race. more sort of chaotic angtsy.........

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-01, 03:20 PM
The Warforged were created by Man...
They Rebelled.
They Evolved.
There are many copies...
And they have a Plan.


All kidding aside, I did say "hey, it's like a D&D Centurion!" when I first saw this.
I kind of prefer the art from the Eberron Campaign Setting book to this.


They look and feel like elves.

Some are programmed to think they are elves. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85434.jpg)

CockroachTeaParty
2008-05-01, 03:39 PM
That's actually one of the least interesting looking warforged I've ever seen.

Jerthanis
2008-05-01, 03:50 PM
Just because something is introduced in a campaign setting, that doesn't make it setting specific.

It could be because I'm an Eberron fan, but to me Warforged are intrinsically bound to that setting. It could be my taste, but the idea of Warforged in Forgotten Realms, or Ravenloft? Spelljammer and Planescape maybe...


TBH, I think the picture looks almost identical to how Warforged were portrayed in the Eberron books. The glowing red eyes are the only difference that I can see, and that could easily be written off as anything from a class feature to a spell effect to a simple manufacturing error.

I don't dislike the art, I just feel it's got an inconsistent style when compared to all the other 4th edition art released so far. It's a purely stylistic quibble, and not a very intense one at that.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-01, 04:04 PM
nope. I've seen the preview books, and dragonborn are a base race, as well as Tieflings, which are not only mainstream, but not particularlly evil as a race. more sort of chaotic angtsy.........

-because every role playing game needs SOMETHING for the "angsty, emo, and misunderstood" demographic. I'd much prefer the liberal application of mace/soap personally. :smallamused:

Scintillatus
2008-05-01, 04:51 PM
Where does this "whiny emo" thing come from with Tieflings? Surely half-demons would be less mopey and more cutting your head of for being such a puny, weakling human with a terrible sense of humor and a complete lack of understanding of modern musical subculture.

...Ahem. *conceals horns beneath hair*

Starsinger
2008-05-01, 05:05 PM
Where does this "whiny emo" thing come from with Tieflings? Surely half-demons would be less mopey and more cutting your head of for being such a puny, weakling human with a terrible sense of humor and a complete lack of understanding of modern musical subculture.

...Ahem. *conceals horns beneath hair*

Because all most people see is "Tiefling is the new Drow"

The Faceless
2008-05-01, 05:15 PM
Because all most people see is "Tiefling is the new Drow"

So, are Drow the new Kobold?

Rutee
2008-05-01, 05:16 PM
Where does this "whiny emo" thing come from with Tieflings? Surely half-demons would be less mopey and more cutting your head of for being such a puny, weakling human with a terrible sense of humor and a complete lack of understanding of modern musical subculture.

...Ahem. *conceals horns beneath hair*

It comes from people looking for crap to hate. There's exactly one mention of angst in the entire Tiefling preview, written by like 4 different people, so obviously that means that Tieflings are all angsty mcangstalots.

Talya
2008-05-01, 05:21 PM
The Warforged were created by Man...
They Rebelled.
They Evolved.
There are many copies...
And they have a Plan.


Hmm. I get the impression that all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

Rockphed
2008-05-01, 05:33 PM
On the subject of art, I don't like that picture. Not because the individual components look funny, but because his right arm(the one holding the shield) doesn't look like it connects to the shield in a manner that would actually end in the shield being secured. Also, his sword's hilt looks funny.

Terraoblivion
2008-05-01, 05:53 PM
Really when you read the tiefling preview it seems like they want them to come off badass much more than they want them to come off emo. In fact it seems more like they are meant to be the kind of characters who don't give a damn about their tragic past and their cursed origins and are just out to make a mark for themselves as individuals. Kinda like humans, but with exotic looks, creepy abilities and a whole lot of confidence. In any case emo is about the last thing it seems like they intended them to be, though of course their history makes plenty of room for them being emo. But really if you want an angsty character you can do it with any race with ease and none appear to be designed with that in mind.

Ascension
2008-05-01, 06:22 PM
Really when you read the tiefling preview it seems like they want them to come off badass much more than they want them to come off emo.

Agreed. They're still anti-heroes, but they're more the leather-clad angry anti-hero than the whiny emo anti-hero. If I play 4E and if I play a tiefling (two big ifs) I think I'll go more Wolverine-style (please release the barbarian soon...). Granted, I think they're likely to be interpreted by the bulk of the player base as emo regardless of the designers' intent, but at least that's not what they're supposed to be.

It's interesting that they included both the warforged and the tiefling in core in response to what they saw as an increased demand for them, but no one I personally know (in real life, that is) is happy about either decision. Most folks 'round here stick to human-elf-dwarf, with the occasional gnome or half-orc here and there.

EvilElitest
2008-05-01, 06:32 PM
I rather like the warforge head, i'm glad it isn't as bulky and ungainly as most Warforge pictures
from
EE

Terraoblivion
2008-05-01, 06:37 PM
The demand for warforged is pretty easy to see. People who have played Eberron want to be able to continue doing that and that is hard without warforged and the other Eberron races. Gnomes as well. As for tieflings i think it was just to add more variety to the core races. Also it seems like different groups have different races they never touch on. I have never seen the more manly races such as dwarves and half-orcs used in actual play for example, whereas the elves have probably outnumbered the humans when the final tally is made. And i have a much easier time seeing myself or any of my friends playing a a tiefling than a gnome or half-orc. So i think it is just a question of different players wanting different things.

EvilElitest
2008-05-01, 06:53 PM
The demand for warforged is pretty easy to see. People who have played Eberron want to be able to continue doing that and that is hard without warforged and the other Eberron races. Gnomes as well. As for tieflings i think it was just to add more variety to the core races. Also it seems like different groups have different races they never touch on. I have never seen the more manly races such as dwarves and half-orcs used in actual play for example, whereas the elves have probably outnumbered the humans when the final tally is made. And i have a much easier time seeing myself or any of my friends playing a a tiefling than a gnome or half-orc. So i think it is just a question of different players wanting different things.

I don't have a particular beef with new races, just the loss of gnomes and WotC inability to give new names to Dragon Born or Tieflings. Hellfolk and Dragon folk are wally simply.

Warforge i'm actually rather cool with, i like the new look
from
EE

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:04 PM
It's interesting that they included both the warforged and the tiefling in core in response to what they saw as an increased demand for them, but no one I personally know (in real life, that is) is happy about either decision. Most folks 'round here stick to human-elf-dwarf, with the occasional gnome or half-orc here and there.

The weird thing is that I don't know anyone personally who is unsatisfied with these changes.

Ascension
2008-05-01, 08:57 PM
The weird thing is that I don't know anyone personally who is unsatisfied with these changes.

Okay, well, folks are different. I guess my community just isn't representative of the broader spectrum of D&D aficionados.

Glawackus
2008-05-01, 09:08 PM
They look and feel like elves.

Some are programmed to think they are elves. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85434.jpg)

You, sir, win.

Talya
2008-05-01, 09:10 PM
Okay, well, folks are different. I guess my community just isn't representative of the broader spectrum of D&D aficionados.

I don't think that's true.

EvilElitest
2008-05-01, 09:29 PM
The weird thing is that I don't know anyone personally who is unsatisfied with these changes.

your jocking right?
from
EE

Rutee
2008-05-01, 09:36 PM
Okay, well, folks are different. I guess my community just isn't representative of the broader spectrum of D&D aficionados.

Yeah, it'd be pretty tough to claim either of us did.

Wooter
2008-05-01, 09:40 PM
Is it just me, or is the new Warforged picture Bruce Timm styled?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-01, 09:42 PM
your jocking right?
from
EE

You mean Joking? I'm not sure what Jocking is.

And no one in my local circle of players has any negative opinions on these changes, so Rutee isn't the only one. In fact, we've all pre-ordered the books and have already decided who is DMing and when the games will be.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 09:43 PM
You mean Joking? I'm not sure what Jocking is.

And no one in my local circle of players has any negative opinions on these changes, so Rutee isn't the only one. In fact, we've all pre-ordered the books and have already decided who is DMing and when the games will be.
Yeah, we're in that second boat. Really the only thing we need are the mechanics.

EvilElitest
2008-05-01, 09:58 PM
You mean Joking? I'm not sure what Jocking is.

Jocking is joking on a forum :smallwink:



And no one in my local circle of players has any negative opinions on these changes, so Rutee isn't the only one. In fact, we've all pre-ordered the books and have already decided who is DMing and when the games will be.
Well you have this forum

from
EE

namo
2008-05-01, 10:27 PM
Hmm. I get the impression that all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

Nice. :smallsmile:

5E: the Lords of Kobold the Coast send their new books out in the world... hoping that the world has forgotten the last cycle.

Starsinger
2008-05-02, 01:21 AM
Yeah, we're in that second boat. Really the only thing we need are the mechanics.

Yeah, us too. Actually, I've been designated with DM duty.

Bassetking
2008-05-02, 01:35 AM
The weird thing is that I don't know anyone personally who is unsatisfied with these changes.

While you may not know me personally, Rutee...

The one, singular, and sole issue I have so far had with 4ed is that they took my Half-orcs out of the PHB races.

Now, I will readily admit; I am in a minority. I play Half-orc barbarians and clerics. I prefer to play the brutish, angry, hulking bar-brawler race. Dwarves legs aren't long enough, and elves just frustrate and annoy me on all levels. Give me my Green-skins, though, and I felt right at home.

That being said. I understand why it occured. More people want to play dragons than do Orcs. More people want to play tieflings than want to play Orcs. From a market standpoint, it makes sense. They'll be included in a player-playable mode in the MM, so they are still a race that is both in the initial release, and in one of the first three books.

So, while I can be Mildly annoyed that Half-orcs aren't in the PHB, I'm not upset at either WotC for their decision, or 4ed in general.

Kioran
2008-05-02, 02:52 AM
Really when you read the tiefling preview it seems like they want them to come off badass much more than they want them to come off emo. In fact it seems more like they are meant to be the kind of characters who don't give a damn about their tragic past and their cursed origins and are just out to make a mark for themselves as individuals. Kinda like humans, but with exotic looks, creepy abilities and a whole lot of confidence. In any case emo is about the last thing it seems like they intended them to be, though of course their history makes plenty of room for them being emo. But really if you want an angsty character you can do it with any race with ease and none appear to be designed with that in mind.

If they wanted that, they shouldn´t have removed their devil heritage. If you want angry, creepy anti-heroes, let them have a dark past. And do not make them disfigured, kick-ass warlocks. Make the deformities less obvious, so there´s still a shock effect once the dudes start ramming people through the walls and punting heads, while the creepy killer-chicks come out if hiding with blood-dripping daggers......Yeah! In short, if that´s the image you´re going for, leave them at least a bit grimdark......
And the loss of half-orcs is saddening as well. The world needs testosterone fueled rage, because few things are more immediately intimidating.....

Squatting_Monk
2008-05-02, 04:50 AM
Where did we get this idea about Tieflings not having a devil heritage? That's the entire point of them as a race, and it hasn't been dropped in 4E.

Dhavaer
2008-05-02, 05:03 AM
Where did we get this idea about Tieflings not having a devil heritage? That's the entire point of them as a race, and it hasn't been dropped in 4E.

But them being descended from fiends has been dropped.

Xefas
2008-05-02, 05:39 AM
I've always used Warforged outside of Eberron as a replacement for the Formians as the race of Mechanus.

Rip out their fluff, shove in some varying degrees of free will, and they fit far better into the role and appear way more badass than Ant People (and not just because every time they were mentioned everyone would chant "Aaant Peo-ple, Aaant Peo-ple" in a parody of South Park).

Not to mention they were a lot more fun to play as the DM. All the "Male" Warforged spoke like HK-47:

"Retraction: Did I say that out loud? While it is true you are a meatbag, I should refrain from addressing you as such."

...and all the "Female" Warforged spoke like GLaDOS:

"All your other friends couldn't come either because you don't have any other friends because of how unlikable you are. It says so here in your personnel file: Unlikable. Liked by no one. A bitter, unlikable loner whose passing shall not be mourned. That's exactly what it says. Very formal. Very official. It also says you're adopted, so that's funny too."

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 05:45 AM
Oh, I hate you. I now have to play a "female" Warforged Bard wearing a Helm of Opposite Alignment whose Inspire Courage is "Still Alive". I have too many character concepts already, stop giving me ideas.

Xefas
2008-05-02, 05:53 AM
Oh, I hate you. I now have to play a "female" Warforged Bard wearing a Helm of Opposite Alignment whose Inspire Courage is "Still Alive". I have too many character concepts already, stop giving me ideas.

"Good news. I figured out what that thing you just incinerated did. It was a morality core they installed after I flooded House Cannith with deadly mindraping illusions to make me stop flooding House Cannith with deadly mindraping illusions. So get comfortable while I warm up my Weird spell..."

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 05:58 AM
You know, Warforged aren't robots. That's been said dozens upon dozens of times by both WotC and Eberron fans, and they aren't even very robot-like in the fluff. Everyone knows this. :smallannoyed:

So why are they so awesome when you make them robots? :smallamused:

Xefas
2008-05-02, 06:08 AM
You know, Warforged aren't robots. That's been said dozens upon dozens of times by both WotC and Eberron fans, and they aren't even very robot-like in the fluff. Everyone knows this. :smallannoyed:

So why are they so awesome when you make them robots? :smallamused:

Robots done well in a fantasy setting are just awesome.

I've always had musings about running an adventure in Cania where Mephistopheles has been producing Steampunk-style mecha (there's precedence in the Hellfire Engine in the FCII) that run on Hellfire and Canian Ice. Nothing gigantic, but maybe Large to Huge sized.

Of course, I have about 100 adventures for the Hells that I'd like to run, but never get the chance to do them very often. Maybe when 4th edition is released (and thus homebrewing monsters and non-combat challenges will be easier), I'll write up a couple of them and post them in the Homebrew Forum.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 06:22 AM
Robots done well in a fantasy setting are just awesome.

I've always had musings about running an adventure in Cania where Mephistopheles has been producing Steampunk-style mecha (there's precedence in the Hellfire Engine in the FCII) that run on Hellfire and Canian Ice. Nothing gigantic, but maybe Large to Huge sized.

Of course, I have about 100 adventures for the Hells that I'd like to run, but never get the chance to do them very often. Maybe when 4th edition is released (and thus homebrewing monsters and non-combat challenges will be easier), I'll write up a couple of them and post them in the Homebrew Forum.Good luck, 4.0 is eliminating most of what made the Planar Cosmology awesome. :smallfurious:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 06:35 AM
Can't believe there was a battlestar galactica mention and THIS didn't make it. In case anybody forgot, this is the warforged inspiration:

http://alonsorincon.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/terminator4_650.jpg



They'll be...back.

Storm Bringer
2008-05-02, 07:59 AM
they never left.:smallbiggrin:


To be fair, If/when I switch to 4th ed (being across the pond sucks sometimes), and if i play a tiefling, I know I will be aiming for bad-ass and not angsty. it's just the current version of the back-story and thier attempts to 'big up' the teiflings just seem to come across as 'tragic past for those who want to whine'. I think it's due to the way they it came across as the teiflings were, either, as a whole or at least a large minority, unhappy with thier evil image and would like to change that. it's the fact thier repentant that bugs me. I'd have left them as unrepentant as to their demonic heritage.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-02, 08:49 AM
{Scrubbed}

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 08:59 AM
{Scrubbed}

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-02, 09:33 AM
Yeah, we know, CoC forever, 4e people suck, etc. Boo-hoo. Go home. We don't need spam either.

Thanks for the personal attack. I was actually referring to the people in thread who have made sweeping generalizations about how 4e forces a character to be played a certain way. e.g. Tieflings are emo.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 09:39 AM
{Scrubbed}

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-02, 09:42 AM
As I've only played in an official campaign setting for one session, and in my group, Warforged tend to pop up more often than Half-Orcs and Half-Elves combined, I'm happy for the Warforged to be moving into more mainstream D&D.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-02, 09:50 AM
Yeah, right. You ALWAYS step into 4e threads to say how something is teh suxxorz and the like, no matter what. You'd do best just staying out, if you can't do a significant contribution. Or maybe (Stealing from a song) I'm correctly thinking that you think that we really DO care 'bout the flamebait you always post?

I'm sorry you feel the need to personally attack me and to make up slanderous lies about me.

I thought I was making a commentary about how people have already decided this and that about 4e without having read the books. I guess I was wrong.

EvilElitest
2008-05-02, 09:53 AM
Good luck, 4.0 is eliminating most of what made the Planar Cosmology awesome.
A moment of silence, for the lost worlds. Can i sig this?



Yeah, right. You ALWAYS step into 4e threads to say how something is teh suxxorz and the like, no matter what. You'd do best just staying out, if you can't do a significant contribution. Or maybe (Stealing from a song) I'm correctly thinking that you think that we really DO care 'bout the flamebait you always post?
Mr. Friendly, here is a question about your standards


In every 4E thread you start/make a first post in, you start out in a full scale attack on the anti 4E people in a manner that implies that we are in some sort of conspiracy, against logic, intellect, and in belong to hte FTU (Forum Trolls United) in our attempt to ruins the best game in existence in order to appease the lord of all evil (you know who he is). Then you yell at use for lying, flaming, and trolling and make a claim of being neutral. People have a right to support 4E, and they also have a right to defend it against negative claims, but both they (and anti 4E people) need to do so in a manner that actually counters the claims. For example, the people who accuse of being morons, have actually backed up their ideas that Tielfings are angsty styled, while you have not actually countered their claims

Thanks for the personal attack. I was actually referring to the people in thread who have made sweeping generalizations about how 4e forces a character to be played a certain way. e.g. Tieflings are emo.
the same way half orcs tend to be big and brutish in 3E
Also, don't hide behind a double standard, you just made a personal attack on people right now that he called you out on

On the subject, i know that 3E did this too, but i hope 4E keeps up with hte skinny slick look towards warforge. It makes them look less absurd and bulky


I'm sorry you feel the need to personally attack me and to make up slanderous lies about me.

Ignoring your previous record, through a quick search would reveal a lot, you just attacked people by calling them morons right now. How is that lying.


I thought I was making a commentary about how people have already decided this and that about 4e without having read the books. I guess I was wrong.

Any more than my drawing a drooling fan boy of 4E and saying "Yeah, there, that proves that 4E people are stupid yeah". You didn't counter anything, nor did you prove anything, you just called people morons


from
EE

Rutee
2008-05-02, 10:01 AM
I'm sorry you feel the need to personally attack me and to make up slanderous lies about me.

I thought I was making a commentary about how people have already decided this and that about 4e without having read the books. I guess I was wrong.

You're going to deny that you had, at the least, temporarily, gone emo about DnD in general because your group was jackasses about resisting 4e, planting the idiot memes like "Oh Emm Gee it's an MMORPIG", and declared loudly and repeatedly that you were done with Dungeons and Dragons, and going to just play other games for eternity?

'cause if you got over that, more power to you, but it doesn't make it 'slanderous lies' to act on the guess that you hadn't.

Wraithy
2008-05-02, 10:03 AM
I like where they've taken warforged, especially now that they've solved the warforged vs. vampire problem I had.
However, isn't WotC making monstrous races pure NPC? I like playing gobbos and all other manner of adventurer-fodder too much to give them up.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-02, 10:04 AM
[QUOTE=EvilElitest;4273361]

Sorry EE, I am not eating your flamebait cheese.

Make all the personal attacks, generalizations and slanders you want.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 10:07 AM
And for the record, I'm neutral on the whole "To switch or not to switch?" Issue about 4th. However, I'm completely fed up with your hipocrisy and trolling, "friend". We ALL want you to shut the jawbox, if you can't at least add something to the debate about 4th.

Rutee
2008-05-02, 10:10 AM
I like where they've taken warforged, especially now that they've solved the warforged vs. vampire problem I had.
However, isn't WotC making monstrous races pure NPC? I like playing gobbos and all other manner of adventurer-fodder too much to give them up.

It's all in the (Monster) Manual, so you don't have to give it up. Assuming they have the good sense to know that Goblins, Kobolds, Half Orcs, and other LA +0 monster races were a lot of people's favorites, anyway.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-02, 10:11 AM
You're going to deny that you had, at the least, temporarily, gone emo about DnD in general because your group was jackasses about resisting 4e, planting the idiot memes like "Oh Emm Gee it's an MMORPIG", and declared loudly and repeatedly that you were done with Dungeons and Dragons, and going to just play other games for eternity?

'cause if you got over that, more power to you, but it doesn't make it 'slanderous lies' to act on the guess that you hadn't.

I don't deny THAT at all. However I wasn't going to bring it up because every time you bring up someones past, it is a MAJOR VIOLATION of the rules, at least it is for me and it is according to the Rules.

I do however deny Azerions LIE that I go in to EVERY 4e thread and mock 4e and trash-talk it. No, I WAS a supporter of 4e until my group was won over by "persuasive" comments by people just like certain posters on this forum.

Artemician
2008-05-02, 10:11 AM
[QUOTE=EvilElitest;4273361]

Sorry EE, I am not eating your flamebait cheese.

Make all the personal attacks, generalizations and slanders you want.

Hey mon... chill a sec, okay? Seriously. It's not as if we actually do want you to shut up, ... just calm down a sec.

EvilElitest
2008-05-02, 10:13 AM
[QUOTE=EvilElitest;4273361]

Sorry EE, I am not eating your flamebait cheese.

Make all the personal attacks, generalizations and slanders you want.

That isn't flame bait, its a demand that you stop these time wasting attacks. If you like 4E fine, but then back up your points and prove it, don't use zealous accusations. And considering your first post on this thread, your in no position to point and say "personal attack" when you insult a whole group of people with your first statement
from
EE

Wraithy
2008-05-02, 10:23 AM
It's all in the (Monster) Manual, so you don't have to give it up. Assuming they have the good sense to know that Goblins, Kobolds, Half Orcs, and other LA +0 monster races were a lot of people's favorites, anyway.

*happy face*

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-02, 10:27 AM
[QUOTE=Mr. Friendly;4273421]

That isn't flame bait, its a demand that you stop these time wasting attacks. If you like 4E fine, but then back up your points and prove it, don't use zealous accusations. And considering your first post on this thread, your in no position to point and say "personal attack" when you insult a whole group of people with your first statement
from
EE

Who is wasting time now EE? You and Az have mindlessly attacked me since I arrived. Who have I personally attacked? Who did I insult in my first post?

You could have chosen to simply ignore my post. Instead you have flamed and personally attacked. Moreover, you KEEP posting about how horrible I am, instead of focusing on the topic at hand. Ergo, you are the one wasting everyones time.

Terraoblivion
2008-05-02, 10:40 AM
The Glados version of a more robotic warforged is the most awesome thing ever. I would not use it in Eberron since warforged are people, no robots. But if i used the warforged to portray robots something like that would be awesome. Especially since none of the people i game with have ever played Portal, so i could get away with a lot.

Also i too am among the ones who haven't had anybody i know dislike 4e. The only complaint i have had is one of my more emotional friends being saddened by the loss of the blood war. Other than that nobody i personally know has felt it did anything but move in the right direction, though they can of course still have screwed the mechanics up. I will find out when my preorder arrives though.

Talya
2008-05-02, 11:07 AM
Assuming they have good sense

:elan:

I suppose there's always a possibility.

EvilElitest
2008-05-02, 11:09 AM
[QUOTE=EvilElitest;4273450]

Who is wasting time now EE? You and Az have mindlessly attacked me since I arrived. Who have I personally attacked? Who did I insult in my first post?

You could have chosen to simply ignore my post. Instead you have flamed and personally attacked. Moreover, you KEEP posting about how horrible I am, instead of focusing on the topic at hand. Ergo, you are the one wasting everyones time.

Wow, internet tough guy at work. Argument fails in quite a few places

1) You insulted everybody who just expressed their options that differed from yours on the tielfings
2) It is hardly mindless. It is actually very well thought out. We both are tired of your attacks and hypocrisy that always amount to same things and never are backed up. if you want to write about how tielfings aren't angsty in any way using backed up evidence and expressing your point through that, fine. But simply saying they are morons doesn't accomplish anything. Mindless attacking would be us going on a thread that didn't involve you "Oh 4E is bad because Mr. Friendly is bad". this is people being fed up with your antics
3) I was focusing on the topic at hand, if you notice my comment about the warforge.

Also i too am among the ones who haven't had anybody i know dislike 4e. The only complaint i have had is one of my more emotional friends being saddened by the loss of the blood war. Other than that nobody i personally know has felt it did anything but move in the right direction, though they can of course still have screwed the mechanics up. I will find out when my preorder arrives though.
I wonder if this is regional or age related actually. It might be interesting to find out
from
EE

SamTheCleric
2008-05-02, 11:11 AM
I wonder if this is regional or age related actually. It might be interesting to find out
from
EE

That would indeed be an interesting study, my friend. I don't know about region, but age/gender may be a bigger demographic study.

Talya
2008-05-02, 11:15 AM
Meh. Tieflings may or may not be "angsty." I don't mind that, it has nothing to do with my dislike for making them core. I mean, hell, I'm a Joss Whedon fan. I'm a Sarah McLachlan fan. Angst, thy name is entertainment!

EvilElitest
2008-05-02, 11:22 AM
That would indeed be an interesting study, my friend. I don't know about region, but age/gender may be a bigger demographic study.

Maybe somebody should start a thread with a poll. I'm guessing the younger generation like 4E more (with me as an exception) but i could be wrong



I do however deny Azerions LIE that I go in to EVERY 4e thread and mock 4e and trash-talk it. No, I WAS a supporter of 4e until my group was won over by "persuasive" comments by people just like certain posters on this forum.
1) your comments on this forum aren't helping,
2) Fair enough, then let people find out on their own. i'm sure if people search people's histories they will find out for themselves.
3) Technically that means you are still a supporter of 4E, just not your group
4) They disagreed with the material? That isn't a conspiracy


Back on subject, is anyone interested in macking a poll? You could have age groups and different types of support
Or three polls, one being buys (with varieties of enthusiasm) and hte other being not buying, and neutral

Buying
1) I whole hardly agree with everything, or almost everything 4E has put out and will certainly buy it
2) I agree with all or almost all of the changes, and will buy it, but i'm not sure it WotC will do it right
3) I like most of the changes, but there are one or two issues i really disagree with. Will buy the books however
4) I like maybe 60-70% of the changes, through some issues bother me.
5) I dislike at least half of the changes, but i'll buy it and see how it turns out
6) I hate it so far, but maybe WotC will surprise me
7) I've never played D&D, so this is my first chance
Neutral
1) It seems good so far, but i'm still inclined wait and see. I expect great things, and i like the changes
2) i like most of hte stuff, but i don't think it will work well, lets see
3) It seems pretty good, i like some stuff, but hte stuff i don't like is enough to make me wait
4) I don't care ether way, i'm going to look into with a new option
5) I dislike it, but i'm inclined to give them a chance when i see the books.
6) I don't have any money, or not enough to spend on this:smallfrown:
Not buying
1) Not interested, i'm content with 3E
2) D&D is boring, i'm moving on
3) I've had enough with RPGs for a wihle
4) Its cool, but i'm just not interested
5) Awful game, i don't want to buy this trash
6) Not worth my money's worth
7) Meh, it doesn't have anything htat interests me
from
EE

SamTheCleric
2008-05-02, 11:35 AM
I think the poll needs to have multiple options and look something like this:

I like 4e and am 13-17
I like 4e and am 18-25
I like 4e and am 26-30
I like 4e and am 31+
I like 4e and am male
I like 4e and am female

I am neutral about 4e and am 13-17
I am neutral about 4e and am 18-25
I am neutral about 4e and am 26-30
I am neutral about 4e and am 31+
I am neutral about 4e and am male
I am neutral about 4e and am female

I dislike 4e and am 13-17
I dislike 4e and am 18-25
I dislike 4e and am 26-30
I dislike 4e and am 31+
I dislike 4e and am male
I dislike 4e and am female

ShadowSiege
2008-05-02, 11:38 AM
Especially since none of the people i game with have ever played Portal, so i could get away with a lot.

Considering Portal was the best three and a half hours spent gaming in 2007 (at the very least), that's a shame.

Mr. Friendly: You initial post could have used some clarification, as it seemed to me that you were attacking everyone in the thread.

Back on topic, hooray for not having to worry about what does and does not affect living constructs anymore. They had so many exceptions to the general construct rules that I recall they had to clarify many things in the "Ask Wizards" article.

EvilElitest
2008-05-02, 11:40 AM
I think the poll needs to have multiple options and look something like this:

I like 4e and am 13-17
I like 4e and am 18-25
I like 4e and am 26-30
I like 4e and am 31+
I like 4e and am male
I like 4e and am female

I am neutral about 4e and am 13-17
I am neutral about 4e and am 18-25
I am neutral about 4e and am 26-30
I am neutral about 4e and am 31+
I am neutral about 4e and am male
I am neutral about 4e and am female

I dislike 4e and am 13-17
I dislike 4e and am 18-25
I dislike 4e and am 26-30
I dislike 4e and am 31+
I dislike 4e and am male
I dislike 4e and am female

So mine for options, yours for ages. But we'd have to be careful in making it clear that you'd do both the gender pol and the number poll seperatly
from
EE

Inyssius Tor
2008-05-02, 11:51 AM
I think the poll needs to have multiple options and look something like this:

I like 4e and am 13-17
I like 4e and am 18-25
I like 4e and am 26-30
I like 4e and am 31+
I like 4e and am male
I like 4e and am female

I am neutral about 4e and am 13-17
I am neutral about 4e and am 18-25
I am neutral about 4e and am 26-30
I am neutral about 4e and am 31+
I am neutral about 4e and am male
I am neutral about 4e and am female

I dislike 4e and am 13-17
I dislike 4e and am 18-25
I dislike 4e and am 26-30
I dislike 4e and am 31+
I dislike 4e and am male
I dislike 4e and am female

I like this. You might have two questions--"I like/am neutral about/dislike 4e fluff", and "I like/am neutral about/dislike the 4e mechanics"; I'm not sure about that, though, since Wizards' new "shiny" design philosophy permeates both.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-02, 12:32 PM
Wow, internet tough guy at work. Argument fails in quite a few places

And that's a truckload of FAIL right there. You must of had that level of FAIL imported on the FAILBOAT.

An ITG arguement might be valid if I had responded by calling you names and making claims like "I'd punch you if I met you, I'm a martial-artist" or something similar.


1) You insulted everybody who just expressed their options that differed from yours on the tielfings

Yes, I insulted everyone by saying that - the thread thus far made me want to /facepalm and posted the first facepalm pic on a GIS. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=facepalm) Wow stop the presses! I would have been insulting everyone if I said *they* were stupid. I merely thought some of the *arguements* were stupid. There is a difference and you know it, you simply want to wrap me up in a semantic argument.


2) It is hardly mindless. It is actually very well thought out. We both are tired of your attacks and hypocrisy that always amount to same things and never are backed up. if you want to write about how tielfings aren't angsty in any way using backed up evidence and expressing your point through that, fine. But simply saying they are morons doesn't accomplish anything. Mindless attacking would be us going on a thread that didn't involve you "Oh 4E is bad because Mr. Friendly is bad". this is people being fed up with your antics

And here you demonstrate the mindlessness of your attacks, seeing as how you haven't read anything I posted or what Az posted. It's also mindless since you have chosen to condemn anything I say for previous posts in *other* threads. I've posted, what four times this week? The other two posts in a thread pointing out that someone was completely wrong about the grapple rules and was totally civil about it? Yet you flame and attack me for my imaginary attacks.

As for my "attacks that are never backed up" - I wasn't aware that I needed to provide evidence that 4e wasn't out yet. Sorry, all I can go by is that Amazon says it hasn't shipped and that people claim to still be waiting, yet I guess you got your copy early, as have the people who say that 4e FORCES you to play an angnsty, repentant, emo tiefling.

As for being "fed up with my antics", why not just put me on ignore instead of flaming me?

CockroachTeaParty
2008-05-02, 12:53 PM
... :smallbiggrin:

Well... I've hopped on board for a game or two of 4th Ed. this summer, and I must say I'm looking forward to it. At the very least, it'll be a good opportunity to introduce new people to the game, since we'll all be starting on the same footing.

Starsinger
2008-05-02, 02:38 PM
... :smallbiggrin:

Well... I've hopped on board for a game or two of 4th Ed. this summer, and I must say I'm looking forward to it. At the very least, it'll be a good opportunity to introduce new people to the game, since we'll all be starting on the same footing.

But the unequal footing is one of the things that made 3.x great! Don't you know if we're all on the same footing in any way, we'll end up making carbon copy characters? We rely on the different footing of mechanics, familiarity with the rules, and personal degree of optimization to tell who's actually good at D&D.

Scintillatus
2008-05-02, 02:51 PM
Friendly:

Some people will never understand your point of view.
Some people will skirt the letter of the law to attack you.
Some people will hold to their arguments when all evidence disagrees.

The sooner you stop caring about the opinions of other people, the sooner you will be able to calmly discuss your opinions with people who will understand you, won't attack you, and will change their opinions during an exchange of ideas.

Use that handy forum ignore feature to quiet the silly people, and chillax, man.

Edit: If I reacted this severely to White Wolf people saying "YOU CAN'T PLAY A GOOD VAMPIRE! OMG PATHS, OMG ANGEL, OMG", I'd have murdered the entire human race. Sometimes you need to realise that other people understanding the truth is totally unimportant.

EvilElitest
2008-05-02, 04:32 PM
And that's a truckload of FAIL right there. You must of had that level of FAIL imported on the FAILBOAT.

Such as your sarcasm one might note. Really, you need to get the sarcastic comment thing down better, because its painful


An ITG arguement might be valid if I had responded by calling you names and making claims like "I'd punch you if I met you, I'm a martial-artist" or something similar.
You demand that I keep up my "mindless attacks" with your ignoring it rather ITG. That being said, i can't help but notice that you aren't holding yourself to that standard


Yes, I insulted everyone by saying that - the thread thus far made me want to /facepalm and posted the first facepalm pic on a GIS. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=facepalm) Wow stop the presses! I would have been insulting everyone if I said *they* were stupid. I merely thought some of the *arguements* were stupid.
You didn't back your point up, you still haven't backed you point up, and basically said that everyone in questions threads were stupid without and real baring. Its like me saying "Everything said on this thread is so dumb i can't express it" just with a funny picture thrown in. is basically insults, as done before and its gets trying


There is a difference and you know it, you simply want to wrap me up in a semantic argument.
yes, because being fed up with your heaven headed "sarcasm" and insulting way of "Proving" your points and demanding you actually back up your points is certainly wrong of me



And here you demonstrate the mindlessness of your attacks, seeing as how you haven't read anything I posted or what Az posted.
um, no it doesn't actually, it shows that i want you to make the effort to actually back up your attacks on other people's options this time. The fact taht your trying to turn the attention away from your actions doesn't change that


It's also mindless since you have chosen to condemn anything I say for previous posts in *other* threads.


2) Fair enough, then let people find out on their own. i'm sure if people search people's histories they will find out for themselves.
Yeah, certainly

More to the point, you might say it is irrelevant, but it is hardly lies, and more to hte point, it hardly changes hte fact that your not backing up any of your insulting attacks thus far.


I've posted, what four times this week? The other two posts in a thread pointing out that someone was completely wrong about the grapple rules and was totally civil about it? Yet you flame and attack me for my imaginary attacks.

Actually we've grown tired of this particular attack, reminding us of prior ones. The issue is really this one right here, because it wastes time and doesn't accomplish anything while being insulting and not backed up

If anyone wants to think it is a pattern, they can just do a history search for other threads where you've made comments i suppose, but the real thing is the comments here



As for my "attacks that are never backed up" - I wasn't aware that I needed to provide evidence that 4e wasn't out yet. Sorry, all I can go by is that Amazon says it hasn't shipped and that people claim to still be waiting, yet I guess you got your copy early, as have the people who say that 4e FORCES you to play an angnsty, repentant, emo tiefling.
1) um, its call advertisement books. They kinda tell you what the stuff is about
2) As i said, its the same way half orcs tend to be big and dumb


As for being "fed up with my antics", why not just put me on ignore instead of flaming me?
I don't put people on ignore on principle, i find it cowardly and hypocritical to the purpose of dicussion, at least it would be if I ignored people. not paying attiention to you doesn't make yoru actions any less offensive



Some people will never understand your point of view.
Some people will skirt the letter of the law to attack you.
Some people will hold to their arguments when all evidence disagrees.

1) Yes, i admit i'm kinda wondering why he is allowed to attack people, but apparently we are flamer for calling him out of on it. Also apparently he doesn't need to back up his statements, he is just that right
2) What law have i broken
3) and what evidence cant


The sooner you stop caring about the opinions of other people, the sooner you will be able to calmly discuss your opinions with people who will understand you, won't attack you, and will change their opinions during an exchange of ideas.
Don't be hypocritical, making your opening remark an unbacked insult goes against the idea of calm dicussion, unless insulting people who you disagree with as a group qualifies as civil dicussion



Use that handy forum ignore feature to quiet the silly people, and chillax, man.

So you can insult people you disagree with without the added burden of them standing up for them selves, :smallwink:
from
EE

Rutee
2008-05-02, 05:14 PM
Poll
No, that's alright. It's literally impossible to find a representative sample of gamers in any one location. All it'd do is cause fights between whoever the poll supports adn doesn't support, along the lines of "We're right, here's the poll!" and "You're wrong, here's why the poll doesn't count!"

EvilElitest
2008-05-02, 05:17 PM
No, that's alright. It's literally impossible to find a representative sample of gamers in any one location. All it'd do is cause fights between whoever the poll supports adn doesn't support, along the lines of "We're right, here's the poll!" and "You're wrong, here's why the poll doesn't count!"

check out the other thread, i just ordered 4E
from
EE

Xefas
2008-05-03, 02:32 AM
Good luck, 4.0 is eliminating most of what made the Planar Cosmology awesome. :smallfurious:

*Ahem*, well, I guess a lot got posted in between times I was able to long on.

Nevertheless, I have to disagree. 4th edition hasn't eliminated anything, but simply added to the available fluff. I don't like the 4th edition fluff, so all I have to do is say "I'm not using it, I'm using this other stuff" and BAM, I'm not using it and I'm using this other stuff.

My campaigns primarily took place in and around the Prime, the Hells, the Abyss, Mechanus, Celestia, and the occasion Outlands or Elysium. And, there are still stats for Devils, Demons, Warforged, Angels and Archons (and all the Prime races I need), so I'm set.

If I really need the occasional Slaad or Yugoloth to jump in, I'll spend a couple of minutes and write one up.

I'm not saying this will work for everyone, and obviously there'll be the occasional "Since when did Sword Archons explode into giant pillars of fire?" question, but I'm not going to let a little extra fluff stop my group from doing what it finds fun.

Roland St. Jude
2008-05-05, 07:55 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is staying closed. The topic isn't really that critical, and it's degraded into a real heap of flaming dung. Infractions have been issued and some posts scrubbed (particularly those I got to before I decided to keep it closed).

Please report violations of the Forum Rules. Please do not respond to flames; that just mucks up the thread.