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Talya
2008-05-01, 12:14 PM
I mentioned this in another thread...and the more i look at it, the more I think it works.

Unarmed Swordsage variant, perhaps going into Shadow Sun Ninja. (possibly a monk level or two). Vow of Poverty looks really sweet...maneuvers/stances can do most of the neat stuff you might need equipment for, and you get far higher combat bonuses than are otherwise possible with equipment. If you're really hung up on flight, raptorans have no level adjustment. You get a whole lot of goodies, bonuses and special abilities that I don't think you could ever match with wealth by level, including just about every "must have" ability people think should be staples of melee characters.

Thoughts?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-01, 12:18 PM
IIRC, the Swordsage Wisdom to AC only works in Light Armor... which doesn't include being unarmored.

As long as you can get around that... sounds like a good idea to me. :smallbiggrin:

Talya
2008-05-01, 12:19 PM
IIRC, the Swordsage Wisdom to AC only works in Light Armor... which doesn't include being unarmored.

As long as you can get around that... sounds like a good idea to me. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, but of course, the unarmed adaptation of the swordsage gets no armor proficiency. I'd call that an error in proofreading rather than what was intended. Regardless, SSN gets the monk bonus to armor as opposed to swordsage's.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-01, 12:22 PM
Oh, didn't know that about SSN.

Yeah, that looks very solid... maneuvers to make up for your lack of "Phat Lewtz"...

Hmm. I'm tempted to make one now. :smalltongue:

Talya
2008-05-01, 12:23 PM
Oh, didn't know that about SSN.

Yeah, that looks very solid... maneuvers to make up for your lack of "Phat Lewtz"...

Hmm. I'm tempted to make one now. :smalltongue:

I started to, then got frustrated when I ran out of room for feats and abilities on Tangledweb's character profiler site. (VoP is brutal that way.)

DownwardSpiral
2008-05-01, 12:24 PM
Unless you pick up balance on the sky stance in shadow hand you'll still be missing out on a way to fly. If you can get past that you should be fine.

Talya
2008-05-01, 12:28 PM
Unless you pick up balance on the sky stance in shadow hand you'll still be missing out on a way to fly. If you can get past that you should be fine.


ummmmm....


If you're really hung up on flight, raptorans have no level adjustment.

Furthermore, the monk speed bonus (which SSN gives you) applies to all modes of natural movement that you have. For a raptoran, their 30'/average flight can easily become 70'/average with this build.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-01, 12:34 PM
And you can improve the Average with a feat (out of Races of the Wild... the name escapes me)

Duke of URL
2008-05-01, 12:37 PM
And you can improve the Average with a feat (out of Races of the Wild... the name escapes me)

Improved Flight, if I'm not mistaken.

Eldariel
2008-05-01, 12:38 PM
Also, you can pick up Wingover and such to pretend to be of better manoeuvrability. Also, the feat is Improved Flight. Two times it and you have Perfect Flight at a nice speed.

And yea, I like the idea of VoP ToB character; I never much liked items anyways so having a bunch of inherent abilities is cool. I really hope 4E will be less of an itemfest...

Douglas
2008-05-01, 12:41 PM
You get a whole lot of goodies, bonuses and special abilities that I don't think you could ever match with wealth by level, including just about every "must have" ability people think should be staples of melee characters.
The math has been done many times. Wealth By Level easily duplicates virtually everything Vow of Poverty has to offer with money to spare. The only exceptions are the bonus exalted feats, which are generally not very powerful, and continuous True Seeing, which you don't get until very high level, well past the point where other party members should be able to cast it for you without a second thought when it's needed.

Person_Man
2008-05-01, 12:50 PM
RE: Variant Swordsage: Non-proficiency isn't an issue if the armor has no armor check penalty.

"Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields."

Wear a mithral chain shirt. My casters usually wear mithral light shields as well.

RE: VoP

Following standard wealth by level guidelines, a 20th level character should have 760,000 gp worth of equipment. That's a TON of gold. If spent judiciously, you could easily top the bonuses provided by VoP.

Furthermore, equipment allows you to min/max. You only need to buy things that are useful for your PC. Many VoP abilities and feats are a waste, and they tend to scale poorly. For example, at 20th level, you only get a +5 to hit and damage. By 20th level, any self respecting melee build will have at least one effectively +10ish weapon.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-01, 12:54 PM
If you want to make the number crunchers can it, be a Mystic Swordsage with the VoP. Take Adaptive Style at level 1, and you win DnD without ever having to multiclass, use equipment, or deal with RAW vs RAI. :smalltongue:

Ponce
2008-05-01, 12:55 PM
I wouldn't multiclass to monk, you get very little from it. You would need a substantial number of levels for the speed bonus to be of any use, in which case your IL will drop substantially. Fist of the Forest is a PrC for this. Boost to unarmed strike, fast movement speed, useful extra abilities, full bab, two good saves, all over 3 levels. Complete Champion. Oh, and Con to AC.

That being said, I've seen VoP swordsage being done. It works.

DownwardSpiral
2008-05-01, 01:05 PM
If you're really hung up on flight, raptorans have no level adjustment.


I have no idea how I missed that.....Nevermind. :smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-01, 01:18 PM
Double post. Poop.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-01, 01:44 PM
You get a whole lot of goodies, bonuses and special abilities that I don't think you could ever match with wealth by level

Yeah, no.
And with the MIC out there, with a ton of useful and cheap items, double no.
Raptoran's almost a must, for flight. I suppose you could go for a flyby-attacking Raptoran. I don't think VoP's bonuses are that impressive, though.

monty
2008-05-01, 01:55 PM
Vow of Poverty does have other benefits, though. For example, if you're going up against high-level casters, it protects you from being Disjunction-ed. Personally, though, I just like roleplaying exalted characters.

The Rose Dragon
2008-05-01, 02:01 PM
Furthermore, the monk speed bonus (which SSN gives you) applies to all modes of natural movement that you have. For a raptoran, their 30'/average flight can easily become 70'/average with this build.

According to Stormwrack, no, it doesn't (basically, it has a variant that allows you to add your monk speed bonus to your natural swim speed rather than land speed).

monty
2008-05-01, 02:05 PM
At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Not "land speed," just speed. Therefore, it applies to all speeds. Might be an oversight, since the core races don't have natural flight, but it's RAW.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-01, 02:07 PM
According to Stormwrack, no, it doesn't (basically, it has a variant that allows you to add your monk speed bonus to your natural swim speed rather than land speed).

The Stormwrack variant is useless, then. Stuff that only increases land speed specifically says so.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-01, 02:07 PM
According to Stormwrack, no, it doesn't (basically, it has a variant that allows you to add your monk speed bonus to your natural swim speed rather than land speed).

Than "It's Wet Outside" is wrong. By Core RAW monk adds to any speed. Not just land speed.

Talya
2008-05-01, 02:07 PM
I wouldn't multiclass to monk, you get very little from it. You would need a substantial number of levels for the speed bonus to be of any use, in which case your IL will drop substantially. Fist of the Forest is a PrC for this. Boost to unarmed strike, fast movement speed, useful extra abilities, full bab, two good saves, all over 3 levels. Complete Champion. Oh, and Con to AC.

That being said, I've seen VoP swordsage being done. It works.


2 levels of monk costs you only 1 initiator level. For that you get two bonus feats (one of which is boosted a lot by SSN - stunning fist), an extra attack on a full attack action (as SSN gives flurry progression, but it's level 11 for the last boost to flurry), an extra point of armor, +10 more speed, etc.


As for VoP vs. WBL:
VOP wealth equivalent:
+8 to one ability = 640,000 gp
+6 to one ability = 36,000 gp
+4 to one ability = 16,000 gp
+2 to one ability = 8,000 gp
+10 bracers of armor = 100,000 gp
Ring of Protection +3 = 32,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 = 8,000 gp
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 = 150,000 gp
Ring of Freedom of Movement = 40,000 gp
Ring of Mind Shielding = 8,000 gp
Ring of Regeneration = 90,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance = 2,500 gp
Gem of Seeing (very, very poor substitute, you'd need to turn them into goggles and have 48 of them to really duplicate it) = 75,000 gp
Boots of the Winterlands (poor substitute) = 2,500 gp
5 rings of major energy resistance = 140,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +4 = 25,000 gp (+3 direct, + 1 from nymph's kiss - exalted feat)
Item of +20 to a skill (Because if you don't take Nymph's Kiss as your level 1 exalted feat, you're dumb. And even then it should be +23) = 40,000 gp
Permanent item of Stoneskin (Closest approximation to DR 10/evil using custom item guidelines) = 16,000 gp

Not to mention...you've got to be able to wear all of the above at the same time. Furthermore, that doesn't count all the feats and abilities which cannot be duplicated by items.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-01, 02:30 PM
2 levels of monk costs you only 1 initiator level. For that you get two bonus feats (one of which is boosted a lot by SSN - stunning fist), an extra attack on a full attack action (as SSN gives flurry progression, but it's level 11 for the last boost to flurry), an extra point of armor, +10 more speed, etc.


As for VoP vs. WBL:
VOP wealth equivalent:
+8 to one ability = 640,000 gp
Sure, except it's not really worth that much. Would you rather have a +8 stat booster than even 100,000 gp of gear?


+10 bracers of armor = 100,000 gp
Ring of Protection +3 = 32,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 = 8,000 gp
Except a normal swordsage can wear armor, getting +9 out of a +5 chain shirt.
Or better yet, a Pearl of Power III for Magic Vestment (or just get the cleric to cast it normally) and a +1 Heavy Fotification chain shirt for crit immunity.
Or better yet, the awesometastic Celestial Armor, which when enhanced to +5 (or magic viestmented, or etc) gives +10 AC.
And he can afford a Ring of Protection +5 and add Natural Armor +5 to an item as per the MIC, which comes out to *more* AC than VoP even with the chain shirt.


Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 = 150,000 gp
That's nice, except the item is obviously overpriced, and there are much better and cheaper options (including Pearls of Power III for the wizard's GMWs, bumming one off the cleric, wearing magic gauntlets, wielding weapons...
...and the weapons and gauntlets can have cool, useful non-+X properties.


Ring of Freedom of Movement = 40,000 gp
Ring of Mind Shielding = 8,000 gp
Ring of Regeneration = 90,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance = 2,500 gp
FoM, sure. Mind Shielding? Who wants that? That GP is better spent. Regeneration? Wands of Cure Light/lesser vigor, much cheaper. Ring of Sustenance? Meh, okay.

Gem of Seeing (very, very poor substitute, you'd need to turn them into goggles and have 48 of them to really duplicate it) = 75,000 gp
Boots of the Winterlands (poor substitute) = 2,500 gp
The Gem of Seeing does just fine. Hell, so does having a couple of Scout's Headbands. You don't need True Seeing all the time--you can usually know when you see it. Sure, it's a handy ability (no more illusions, etc), but it's not that big a deal (and with VoP you're missing out on a whole ton of handy items).


5 rings of major energy resistance = 140,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +4 = 25,000 gp (+3 direct, + 1 from nymph's kiss - exalted feat)
Item of +20 to a skill (Because if you don't take Nymph's Kiss as your level 1 exalted feat, you're dumb) = 40,000 gp
Permanent item of Stoneskin (Closest approximation to DR 10/evil using custom item guidelines) = 16,000 gp
Better energy resistances, sure, but who buys Rings of Energy Resistance? A Mass Resist X spell when you suspect you need it ("red dragon!") works for the most part.
Not everyone takes Nymph's Kiss, because not everyone can manage a relationship with a fey in-game.
That resistance is also 1 less whan a Cloak of Resistance +5.

DR 10/evil can be pretty useful, I'll admit. Unless you're fighting demons/devils. How standard those are as high-level enemies varies wildly.


Not to mention...you've got to be able to wear all of the above at the same time. Furthermore, that doesn't count all the feats and abilities which cannot be duplicated by items.
That's at level 20. There's some really strong, really handy stuff you're missing, and a level 20 character can have all of it.
With the MIC, body slots are much less of an issue.

Talya
2008-05-01, 02:33 PM
DR 10/evil can be pretty useful, I'll admit. Unless you're fighting demons/devils.

I noticed a while ago that a level 20 VOP monk has DR 10/evil and DR 10/magic. Which actually rules out most demons/devils bypassing it.

The major downside of that is you have 20 levels of monk. Which is awful.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-01, 02:36 PM
I noticed a while ago that a level 20 VOP monk has DR 10/evil and DR 10/magic. Which actually rules out most demons/devils bypassing it.

The major downside of that is you have 20 levels of monk. Which is awful.

Yeah, it just means you won't bleed as much when they violate you.

Wait a minute. Demons/devils can't beat DR/magic? SRSLY? Wow.

Cuddly
2008-05-01, 02:40 PM
When you can make up for some of the holes in VoP through abilities, it's not so bad. It's just that magic items are so much better when you can min-max it. That +8 to a stat is nice if you're a caster, but not really necessary if you do melee. Personally, I'd rather spend that cash on pearls of power & really cool items from MiC (like weapon crystals, since I like meleers that do precision damage).

And even as a caster, most benefit enormously from wands, scrolls, and staves.

Hunter Noventa
2008-05-01, 02:50 PM
Wait a minute. Demons/devils can't beat DR/magic? SRSLY? Wow.

For example, a Balor has DR 15/Cold Iron and Good. In theory that means it's natural attacks bypass the same type of DR, neither of which the monk has. And, oddly enough, it's attacks don't count as Evil. They just can overcome it's own DR.

At least I think that's how that works.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-01, 02:53 PM
When you can make up for some of the holes in VoP through abilities, it's not so bad. It's just that magic items are so much better when you can min-max it. That +8 to a stat is nice if you're a caster, but not really necessary if you do melee.

And for a caster, it's not nearly as nice as +6 to a stat, the Vest of Lolhax from the MIC, and a Runestaff of Transmutation.

Talya
2008-05-01, 02:54 PM
Yeah, it just means you won't bleed as much when they violate you.

Wait a minute. Demons/devils can't beat DR/magic? SRSLY? Wow.

Sorta. Their natural weapons generally don't beat DR/magic. Assuming they are just summoned or not targeting you specifically, that's a huge advantage. If they have time to plan though, they certainly have the resources to go get a magic weapon or cast "greater magic fang" on themselves.

Oh, more on VOP:
The lack of dependance on items that can be taken from you, in addition to the uselessness of Dysjunction on you, is actually a fairly big plus in itself.

Furthermore, exalted feats aren't useless. You're looking at +1 - +2d6 holy damage per hit in most cases, and every time you hit your opponent they've got to roll a fort save. If they roll a 1 (or otherwise roll lower than 13 if their fort save sucks), they take 1d6-3d6 dex damage. If you crit them, they can take strength damage. You boost your stunning fist DCs. You gain wisdom to hit (as a monk or swordsage or SSN, that feat is gold). You gain big bonuses to saves, skills, etc, healing ability, abilty to repel/weaken the undead, etc.

Jasdoif
2008-05-01, 02:55 PM
For example, a Balor has DR 15/Cold Iron and Good. In theory that means it's natural attacks bypass the same type of DR, neither of which the monk has. And, oddly enough, it's attacks don't count as Evil. They just can overcome it's own DR.

At least I think that's how that works.If you'll look at the entry's text....
A balor’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Of course, a balor has magic weapons too, so it'll do just fine.

Talya
2008-05-01, 02:56 PM
If you'll look at the entry's text....

Of course, a balor has magic weapons too, so it'll do just fine.

yeah, balors are among the few that come with magic weapons pre-loaded. ;)

Of course, they do mostly fire damage, which won't matter as much here.

Ponce
2008-05-01, 03:22 PM
2 levels of monk costs you only 1 initiator level. For that you get two bonus feats (one of which is boosted a lot by SSN - stunning fist), an extra attack on a full attack action (as SSN gives flurry progression, but it's level 11 for the last boost to flurry), an extra point of armor, +10 more speed, etc.

2 levels sound good actually. The speed bonuses you were talking about earlier made it seem like you planned on taking a lot more than 2. Where does the +10 to speed come from?

Talya
2008-05-01, 03:36 PM
2 levels sound good actually. The speed bonuses you were talking about earlier made it seem like you planned on taking a lot more than 2. Where does the +10 to speed come from?

Shadow Sun Ninja (10 levels) stacks with monk for the purposes of unarmed damage, flurry progression, armor bonus, and speed bonus.

Chronos
2008-05-01, 03:58 PM
+8 to one ability = 640,000 gpOnly if you try to get it all on one item. An item of +6 enhancement plus a tome for +2 inherent is only 91,000. Plus, of course, if that stat is very important to you (Int for wizards, say), you can get a total of +11 from items, which you can't get from VoP.

Yes, technically, you can use your WBL to buy a bunch of tomes and then read them all before you take the Vow, but that won't be doable until decently high level, which means that you'd miss out on feats. If you just wanted your highest ability score to be as high as it could be without the vow, you'd need to spend 82,500 on your tome, which is your WBL for level, what, ten-ish?

Cuddly
2008-05-01, 04:01 PM
What if you accidentally read a tome without knowing what it was? Hypothetically.

Talya
2008-05-01, 04:02 PM
VoP characters are not prohibited from means of acquiring a +5 inherent bonus to a stat. It's just much, much harder to do. Furthermore, they can use potions and such expendable items that another party member hands them, as I recall. A tome may be considered such a thing, depending on the DM.

Tithes and Offerings will get you services that match particular spells, and VoP characters accumulate wealth ONLY for tithes and offerings. Getting someone to cast wish for you would take a while, but they could do it (and pay for it through tithing.)

dyslexicfaser
2008-05-01, 04:10 PM
On the CO Wizards board, some guy pointed out that if you wait until AFTER buying a bunch of Manuals and such, THEN take VoP, you get better return for your investment, since VoP retroactively applies everything except the extra feats. I always thought that kinda violated the spirit of the concept, but hey.

I like the idea of a VoP raptoran swordsage. It covers the biggest concern of VoP in my mind, which is lack of options (flight, too). And even if it isn't QUITE as effective as a armored swordsage... who cares? It makes VoP at least a contender, even if you can't prove mathematically that it beats out magic items.

Cuddly
2008-05-01, 04:11 PM
You could always get your friendly neighborhood solar(s) to cast wish for you. Or if you go Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10. :smallbiggrin:

Talya
2008-05-01, 05:17 PM
That's nice, except the item is obviously overpriced, and there are much better and cheaper options (including Pearls of Power III for the wizard's GMWs, bumming one off the cleric, wearing magic gauntlets, wielding weapons...
...and the weapons and gauntlets can have cool, useful non-+X properties.


As Lord Silvanos will point out to you, gauntlets are not a special monk weapon, so you can't use them with flurry. Furthermore, they aren't a martial discipline favored weapon, so you can't use great feats like the one that adds Dex to damage with them, as well as other ToB discipline-weapon specific features. Lastly, you're a ToB swordsage...you can add those useful non+X properties with a plethora of boosts, that do the job better, and don't stack anyway.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 05:22 PM
YEah, but Flurrying is awful anyway, so you don't lose anything by losing the ability to Flurry. Plus you're talking about for use in an actual game; You may be able to get it houseruled differently.

A question: Do you seek to optimize a VoP Swordsage, to validate a VoP Swordsage as effective, or establish the superiority of a VoP swordsage compared to an ordinary swordsage?

Talya
2008-05-01, 05:25 PM
YEah, but Flurrying is awful anyway, so you don't lose anything by losing the ability to Flurry.

Flurrying is awful? How is two extra attacks at maximum BAB without penalty "Awful?" Sure, it sucks that you can't move much when using it, but even at level 20, people do take full attack actions, you know...especially with full round action boosts that add damage per attack, and a base damage of 4d8 + str + dex +exalted holy damage every hit?



A question: Do you seek to optimize a VoP Swordsage, to validate a VoP Swordsage as effective, or establish the superiority of a VoP swordsage compared to an ordinary swordsage?

Yes, yes, and no.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 05:30 PM
Well, you're talking about a Swordsage; The whole /point/ is to not give up your mobility. Making descisions based on something you ought to be limiting the use of anyway is unsound decision making.

Talya
2008-05-01, 05:30 PM
Well, you're talking about a Swordsage; The whole /point/ is to not give up your mobility. Making descisions based on something you ought to be limiting the use of anyway is unsound decision making.

Swordsages have plenty of maneuvers intended to be used with full round attacks. They also gain access to pounce through maneuvers. Mobility does not mean you are moving all the time. It means you CAN move when you need to. With the exception of things like classes with skirmish, or dervish dance of death, few melee classes benefit by moving every every round.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 05:42 PM
Pounce doesn't allow Flurry, I believe. It depends on the wording, but it'd have to read "Allows you to make a full attack action", not "Allows you to make all your attacks at the end of a charge". I genuinely don't recall offhand, so as long as it's the former, you can at least Flurry on such a charge.

More to the point, the extra bonuses you can stack on a Gauntlet still leave it a better option then adding on 2 more +5 attacks. Especially considering how expensive the amulet is for the gain you get.

Talya
2008-05-01, 05:47 PM
Pounce doesn't allow Flurry, I believe. It depends on the wording, but it'd have to read "Allows you to make a full attack action", not "Allows you to make all your attacks at the end of a charge". I genuinely don't recall offhand, so as long as it's the former, you can at least Flurry on such a charge.

More to the point, the extra bonuses you can stack on a Gauntlet still leave it a better option then adding on 2 more +5 attacks. Especially considering how expensive the amulet is for the gain you get.

Flurry is not a full round attack action itself. Flurry is something a monk can do in any situation where they get to use their iterative attacks (which is solely with full round actions). Regardless, at the end of Pouncing Charge, it clearly states you get to make a full attack. Your charge bonus applies to all attacks in the charge.

And more to the point, the amulet of mighty fists is expensive, and uses up an oh-so-precious amulet slot that a monk or swordsage generally want for +wisdom. This isn't an issue with VoP.

VoP isn't a liability if constructed right. Those bonuses are huge. You just have to build to them. I'm fairly convinced a VoP Swordsage with this build would be able to hold their own against the same build with equipment...possibly even beat them.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 05:49 PM
Verbatim:

"A monk must use a full round attack action to strike with a flurry of blows"

You can probably get it houseruled to work in a pounce, but then, you could probably get a gauntlet houseruled as a Monk Weapon anyway.

Talya
2008-05-01, 05:50 PM
Verbatim:

"A monk must use a full round attack action to strike with a flurry of blows"


Yup. What I said. Any time you take iterative attacks, you're using a full round attack action, without exception. A monk must use a full round attack action to use flurry of blows, but flurry of blows itself is not a full round attack action. it is part of one. It's not an activated ability. It makes their attack structure +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 instead of just +15/+10/+5. It's a permanent change to their iterative attack list.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 05:51 PM
You need to quote the exact wording of Pounce abilities, because I frankly don't have any right in front of me. Or preferably reference it.

Effectively, a "Full Attack Action" is the specific Full Round action that you take standing still; If Pounce says "You may make each of your iterative attacks.." then even assuming you're correct, it's not /specifically/ a full round attack action (Unlike, say, Flashing Sun, which is explicitly a full round attack action)

Talya
2008-05-01, 05:55 PM
You need to quote the exact wording of Pounce abilities, because I frankly don't have any right in front of me. Or preferably reference it.

Pouncing charge
Tiger Claw (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisite: Two tigerclaw maneuvers
Initiation action: 1 full-round action
Range: Personal
Target: You

With a ferocious howl, you throw yourself into combat. You move with such speed and ferocity that when you reach your enemy, you unleash a blistering flurry of slashes, cuts and hacks.

As part of this maneuver, you make a charge attack. Instead of making a single attack at the end of your charge, you can make a full attack. The bonus on your attack roll for making a charge applies to all of your attack rolls.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 05:58 PM
As part of this maneuver, you make a charge attack. Instead of making a single attack at th end of your charge, you can make a full attack. The bonus on your attack roll for making a charge applies to all of your attack rolls.

Emphasis mine. Regrettably, there's no mention of making a full attack action at the end of a double movement, which would be the specific game terms that need to be used, but rather, making all attacks at the end of a charge. It /may/ be sloppy wording, but if you check Flashing Sun under Desert Wind (Page 54), it explicitly uses the term a Full Attack Action, so I suspect that this is an intentional discrepancy.

Again, I'm sure you can get it houseruled to Flurry, but by strict RAW, it doesn't work.

avr
2008-05-01, 05:59 PM
Even without Pounce, Swordsages have access to a few manoeuvres which allow movement and use up a swift action - Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1), Shadow Blink (Shadow Hand 7) or Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind 7 or 8, I think).

Talya
2008-05-01, 05:59 PM
A full attack is the same thing as a full attack action. It's just shorthand. (Both, in fact, are shorthand, for "Full round attack action." There is no separate thing called full attack or full attack action.) This clearly works with flurry of blows, which you can use with any full attack.


Even without Pounce, Swordsages have access to a few manoeuvres which allow movement and use up a swift action - Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1), Shadow Blink (Shadow Hand 7) or Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind 7 or 8, I think).

Yes. And plenty of boosts that add a small amount of bonus damage per attack, obviously designed to use with full attack actions in order to be useful. (Because, let's face it, the most mobile of melee characters don't want to move every round.)

Talya
2008-05-01, 06:02 PM
grrrrr. Double post.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 06:03 PM
A full attack is the same thing as a full attack action. It's just shorthand. This clearly works with flurry of blows, which you can use with any full attack.
Cite your source, by all means. Like I said; The book very clearly makes use of the term "Full Attack Action" within maneuver text; If they had intended "Full Attack Action", they'd have said it.

Do note that this difference is critical; If they had simply said "You may make a full attack action at the end of your Charge", by RAW, you would get a Full Attack +1 Attack, from the Charge. If they had intended for you to get a Full Attack Action, they would have said "As part of this charge, you may sacrifice your normal attack to instead take a Full Attack Action."

Talya
2008-05-01, 06:06 PM
Cite your source, by all means.


Actually, that's up to you. There is only one entry for a full attack. There is no separate entry for "full attack action." So either a full round attack action and a full attack are the same thing, or flurry is impossible in ALL situations. (Which would be absurd.) The description of Flurry is the only place where "Full attack action" as a phrase is referenced, and it obviously applies to a full round action - full attack.

Monks have a BAB of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5. That is their full attack, full attack action, or full round attack action, whatever you choose to call it. A full attack for a level 20 monk is always 3 attacks at maximum BAB, one attack at -5, and one attack at -10.

If you want the SRD wording, here it is. Notice that there is no separate "full attack action." There is a full round action called a "full attack." That's it.


Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 06:27 PM
Actually, that's up to you. There is only one entry for a full round attack action. There is no separate entry for "full attack." So either a full round attack action and a full attack are the same thing, or flurry is impossible in ALL situations. (Which would be absurd.) There is no separate description of a "full attack" as opposed to a "full round attack action."

Monks have a BAB of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5. That is their full attack, full attack action, or full round attack action, whatever you choose to call it. A full attack for a level 20 monk is always 3 attacks at maximum BAB, one attack at -5, and one attack at -10.

Alright, I'll break it down step by step for you.

Point the first:
PHB40: "A monk must use a Full Attack Action to strike with a flurry of blows"
From this, we surmise you need a Full Attack Action to use a Flurry. The contention, then, comes from the idea that all Full Attacks are Full Attack Actions
PHB 143:
Full Round Actions:

Full Attack:
"If you get more then one attack ... you must use a Full Round Action to get your additional attacks."

We can surmise that all Full Attack Actions are Full Round Actions. I'm sure we both agree, you do not get multiple Full Round Actions.

I have recalled an accessible source of Pounce;

From The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lion.htm)
"If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks."
A Charge is, itself, a specific type of action. After all, it doesn't say that as part of a full attack action, it can Charge, yes?

From PHB 154:
"Charging is a special full round action"
You can not make two full round actions in a turn; Indeed, there's no indication that Pounce allows a full action, merely a full attack. It's not a separate action, but rather, the full attack from Pounce is a charge action enhanced by the Pounce Ability.

Now, that's /normal/ pounce + Flurry. Let's move onto Pouncing Claw, shall we?

Pouncing charge
Tiger Claw (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisite: Two tigerclaw maneuvers
Initiation action: 1 full-round action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Your Full Round Action for the turn is, rather then a Full ATtack Action, an action to Initiate Pouncing Charge. This is neither a Charge Action, nor a Full Round Action.

In fact, if we look at the mechanics text;

"As part of this maneuver, you make a charge attack. Instead of making a single attack at the end of your charge, you can make a full attack. The bonus on your attack roll for making a charge applies to all of your attack rolls."

You are not making seperate actions, but rather, are being granted special attacks /as part/ of a different action.

Talya
2008-05-01, 06:31 PM
You are not making seperate actions, but rather, are being granted special attacks /as part/ of a different action.

Correct. And for a monk, a flurry of blows is part of a full attack, which you admit...full attacks are full round actions. A full attack action is a full attack is a full round action. It's all the same thing. They are not different things.

And yes, pounce ability animals have, and pouncing charge, both let you take full round attack actions as part of your charge. That's the point of them.

By RAW, you are wrong. By common sense, you are wrong. Either way, you are wrong. It would require a house rule not to allow flurry as part of a pouncing charge.

IIRC, "Full attack action" is a vestigial term from 3.0e, which was renamed "full attack" in 3.5. The wording for when you can use Flurry of Blows was not rewritten. Note that Flurry of Blows in 3.0e simply changed the iterative attack progression from 15/10/5 to 15/12/9/6/3. That was flurry of blows. Flurry of blows was their iterative attacks, which required a full attack action. The wording hasn't changed, nor has what flurry of blows actually is. The only difference is in what extra attacks flurry grants. Instead of flurry being 15/12/9/6/3, now it's 15/15/15/10/5.

Cuddly
2008-05-01, 06:37 PM
If you can't flurry with pounce, then you can't actually make any extra attacks with pounce, ever. According to your reasoning, Rutee.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 06:43 PM
Correct. And for a monk, a flurry of blows is part of a full attack, which you admit...full attacks are full round actions. A full attack action is a full attack is a full round action. It's all the same thing. They are not different things.

No, you are incorrect. "A Full Attack Action" is a specific full round action; After all, you can't make a Full Attack during a Charge (Which is itself a full round action) without Pounce, correct? By the wording you are attempting to use, you can make a full attack during any full round action; This is not the case; You may only make a Full Attack Action as a specific, seperate action.

True or false: You only receive one Full Round Action.

When you Pounce, you make a Charge Action. A Charge Action is a Full Round Action. You have taken your action for the round.

As part of this charge, you may then make all attacks available; Specific rules trump general ones; Rather then making an extra action, you enhance your current full round action.

Saying I'm wrong by RAW doesn't make it so. You have to demonstrate it.


If you can't flurry with pounce, then you can't actually make any extra attacks with pounce, ever. According to your reasoning, Rutee.
Incorrect: Pounce specifically enhances Charge; You are not receiving a Full Round Action, but rather, you may make all of your attacks. A Full Attack Action is a seperate class of Full Round Actions.

The reason you can not flurry is that Flurry specifically states you must make a Full Attack Action.

Talya
2008-05-01, 06:45 PM
True or false: You only receive one Full Round Action.



False. You can make as many actions as a particular rule says you can.

Pounce specifically lets you make a full attack (which is a full attack action) as part of a charge. All attacks available, in a pounce, for a monk, include flurry of blows attacks.

For the record, the initiation time of Pouncing Charge is "One full round action."

You then make a charge, which is a another full round action.

As part of the charge, you make a full attack, which is always a full round action.

You are, in effect, taking 3 full round actions in a single round by activating the maneuver. (Hey, and you still have a swift action available!) Suck it up.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 06:49 PM
You are, in effect, taking 3 full round actions by activating the maneuver. Suck it up.
No, you are not.

You are taking 1 full round action. It specifically states that AS PART of this full round action, you then make a Charge Attack, and at the end of your Charge Attack, you make a Full Attack. Not a Full Attack Action.

Suck it up.

If you're so sure you're right, Take it up with Silvanos. I'm done with your ****ing passive aggressive tone. If you don't want to listen to a strict reading of RAW just because it hurts your stance, what the hell ever, but don't then claim that you're correct by RAW.

Talya
2008-05-01, 06:50 PM
No, you are not.

You are taking 1 full round action. It specifically states that AS PART of this full round action, you then make a Charge Attack, and at the end of your Charge Attack, you make a Full Attack. Not a Full Attack Action.

Suck it up.

Sorry, you're contradicting the rules, and arguing irrelevant semantics. I've proven you wrong here completely.



A Full Attack Action is a seperate class of Full Round Actions.

No it isn't. There is no full attack action listed under Full round actions, which I showed you above. A Full attack is a separate class of full round actions, which I also showed you above.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 06:52 PM
You have not proven that wrong. By the wording you are attempting to claim, All Full Round Actions that have an attack in them can have a Full Attack. We know this to be false, because pounce specifically makes exception for Charge Actions.

Talya
2008-05-01, 06:53 PM
*Sigh*

Once again:


Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Do you see "full attack action" listed separately there? (note: it's not listed separately later on that page, either. If you need the entire SRD quoted for you verbatim, we can do that.) A Full Attack is a separate class of "Full round actions." That's the only "full attack" listed. ANYWHERE. You're making up a new rule, and it's not in SRD.


You have not proven that wrong. By the wording you are attempting to claim, All Full Round Actions that have an attack in them can have a Full Attack. We know this to be false, because pounce specifically makes exception for Charge Actions.

This is a strawman. I'm not claiming that at all. And you can't have your cake and eat it to. You say that the charge and the full attack are PART OF the full round action it requires to initiate, right?

A full attack is always a full round action. See the above rule. So how come a full attack can be "part of" another full round action, while a flurry of blows (which is a full attack) cannot? By your rules, since flurry of blows must be a separate "full round action" (not supported by RAW...RAW says you need to make a full attack action to make a flurry of blows, but not that a flurry of blows is itself a full attack action), then so must charge. And the maneuver initiation. Yet the maneuver specifically says it allows a charge, and a full attack (and hence, flurry of blows, since it is part of a full attack.)

And once again:

"Full attack action" is a vestigial term from 3.0e, which was renamed "full attack" in 3.5. The wording for when you can use Flurry of Blows was not rewritten. Note that Flurry of Blows in 3.0e simply changed the iterative attack progression from 15/10/5 to 15/12/9/6/3. That was flurry of blows. Flurry of blows was their iterative attacks, which required a full attack action. The wording hasn't changed, nor has what flurry of blows actually is. The only difference is in what extra attacks flurry grants. Instead of flurry being 15/12/9/6/3, now it's 15/15/15/10/5.

streakster
2008-05-01, 06:58 PM
In related news, bolding of text has risen dramatically. Astute viewers will recognize this as one of the ten thread warning signs - aggressive formatting. Coming soon: Hitler references.

No, wait, sorry. HITLER REFERENCES!

Better.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:00 PM
Oh my freaking god. You don't get it. You are enhancing a specific action, not taking another full round action.

Never mind. Forget it. You're wrong, I can handle that. I need to stop living that XKCD comic.

Cuddly
2008-05-01, 07:01 PM
/links to a hundred Hitlers pic

Talya
2008-05-01, 07:02 PM
Oh my freaking god. You don't get it. You are enhancing a specific action, not taking another full round action.

I get that just fine. What you don't get is that that is what flurry of blows does...enhances a full attack. You get to use it any time you use your iterative attacks, which is always a full attack. A full attack is the 3.5 term for 3.0's "full attack action."


If you believe otherwise, here's the link to the section I just quoted, twice above.



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm

I've sourced my statements, you haven't. Note that "full attack" is a specific type and separate class of "Full round action." Please find the specific term "full attack action," as distinct from "full attack."

Collin152
2008-05-01, 07:05 PM
You're both right.

Moving on, I officialy want to play a VoP Swordsage now.

Eldariel
2008-05-01, 07:12 PM
Thank you, ladies. That was most enlightening two-page exchange that stopped containing new information after post 2. Let's, for the sake of this thread, assume that the DM in question is going to (house)rule that you get Flurry on Pounce since that's intuitive. That makes the Monk/SSN dip quite worth it (given fractional BAB), although the loss of Tiger Claw- and Diamond Mind-disciplines for the duration of SSN is painful.

Since this conversation is clearly only relevant for the Unarmed builds, how about Kensai? Should there be the classic two-level Kensai-dip to gain the ability to bypass DR/metal? Is there an easier way? Should Strikes be brought to bear over Flurry routine versus such foes instead, or maybe the two-level Eternal Blade dip? If Kensai dip is in order, how early and how deep?


EDIT: Ninjas. Oh, how crappy a class they make and yet they always get there before you.

Collin152
2008-05-01, 07:17 PM
EDIT: Ninjas. Oh, how crappy a class they make and yet they always get there before you.

In all honesty, I'm a sorcerer by class.
I just call myself a ninja because I'm sneaky and speak Japanese.

Talya
2008-05-01, 07:22 PM
Since this conversation is clearly only relevant for the Unarmed builds, how about Kensai? Should there be the classic two-level Kensai-dip to gain the ability to bypass DR/metal? Is there an easier way? Should Strikes be brought to bear over Flurry routine versus such foes instead, or maybe the two-level Eternal Blade dip? If Kensai dip is in order, how early and how deep?


EDIT: Ninjas. Oh, how crappy a class they make and yet they always get there before you.

I don't understand how the first two levels of Kensei help there. I don't see where either signature weapon or power surge (the Kensei's level 1 and 2 abilities) help break DR. Level 2 Kensei would let you add energy damage or something to your natural attacks, but you're getting better than that with exalted feats anyway, and I think the maneuvers are worth more. Plus stone-dragon strikes can always be substituted for full attacks when you need to beat DR. (I mean, what Swordsage doesn't take a stone dragon "mountain hammer" strike or similar?)

Oh, another thing: "Touch of the Shadow Sun" is beautiful with this character. You've already boosted your wisdom through the roof (since it's both "to hit" and armor for you.) You've taken Improved Natural Attack (since you're not dumb.) So your negative energy damage is 4d8 + wis. Then you can heal that much to someone else on your next round.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-05-01, 08:01 PM
I'm not going to get into this whole argument between Rutee and Talya, but I will say that I'd let a Monk Flurry on a Pounce, mostly because monks desperately need the love anyway, wether it's a houserule or not. Moving on-

I like the *idea* for Vow of Poverty, but the fact it means giving up WBL entirely is just too harsh to do so. I likes my wibble. Err, WBL, and you'd have to give me an extremely good reason to give it up. However, I'd definitely enjoy playing it for kicks in an underpowered campaign.

Talya
2008-05-01, 09:36 PM
Fist of the Forest is a PrC for this. Boost to unarmed strike, fast movement speed, useful extra abilities, full bab, two good saves, all over 3 levels. Complete Champion. Oh, and Con to AC.


BTW, i've never looked at this class...it's sweet. Works well with VOP too...both flavorwise and from a mechanical perspective (not needing to buy food...because you do not need to eat, for example. Not needing to seek shelter, because you have permanent endure elements, for example.) How about...2 monk, 3 FoF, 4 swordsage, 10 SSN, 1 warblade? (Since you're already at maximum unarmed damage with FoF.) you end up with an IL of 17 for swordsage, 14 for warblade. And a BAB of +16...I think I'd take warblade at character level 18, then two more swordsage for the last two. That would maximize high level maneuvers. Only downside is FoF boosts land speed only. (Still, it wouldn't slow this character down any, and perhaps a DM would let one change it to air speed only.)


If you want to make the number crunchers can it, be a Mystic Swordsage with the VoP. Take Adaptive Style at level 1, and you win DnD without ever having to multiclass, use equipment, or deal with RAW vs RAI. :smalltongue:


What's a Mystic Swordsage?

Edit: found it. That's hellabroken. 25 spells, of any level (you could end up with 9 level 9 spells, and casta up to 12 spells per encounter, of any level.

Thrawn183
2008-05-01, 10:11 PM
I only read to the beginning of the second page but I'd like to throw this out there:

Energy resistance is per round. Spell based (or ring based) energy resistance is per attack. There is a huge, huge difference there.

monty
2008-05-01, 10:14 PM
I only read to the beginning of the second page but I'd like to throw this out there:

Energy resistance is per round. Spell based (or ring based) energy resistance is per attack. There is a huge, huge difference there.

Where does it say that?

Edit: Never mind, found it.

Talya
2008-05-01, 10:22 PM
Huh. Neat. That's an interesting inconsistency. Yes, it says that about resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy). Its very clear in that regard.

Then it says, about a ring of resistance, that it protects you with each attack, also clearly. It also links the word resistance...to the same link above, which contradicts the description of the ring. So does the description of the spell "resist energy."

I think WotC just failed to proofread closely, calling two very different abilities the exact same thing. Still, with no way to tell which they meant, it seems by the letter of it, you're probably right, even though it contradicts itself.

monty
2008-05-01, 10:27 PM
Somehow, I lost my train of thought while I was trying to look for that...now I remember what I was going to say. I always rule that resistance applies per instance, regardless of the source of the resistance, because that makes more sense.

Thrawn183
2008-05-01, 10:38 PM
Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting. It made elemental based damage spells a lot better in the games I play in because we pretty much only fight things with natural energy resistance (ie. we don't fight humanoids or anything other than undead/demons/devils/constructs). Makes your standard meteor swarm a little less crappy.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-01, 10:48 PM
Talya: tut tut, it's not broken so much as really easy to stray into the realm of broken. It's all in the spells you choose:

1. Expeditious Retreat, Swift as a Boost and Shocking Grasp as a Stike.

2. Blockade as a Boost and Shivering Touch, Lesser as a Strike.

All four are level 1 spells. I think 1 is just fine. 2, on the other hand, makes me twitch some.


Also: I freely admit that the worst I have ever done is use Alter Self. With a Warforged, it's just too tempting to turn into an animated wagon/carriage and pretend to be a transformer as I tote teammates on long trips while they rested at night. With a humanoid, I used it to change into things that had swim, burrow, and fly speeds. When you use the VoP though, it kinda balances it all out.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-01, 11:55 PM
I actually have played a Gestalt Catfolk VoP Unarmored Swordsage//Paladin (No alignment restrictions) in a low-level game, and it was pretty powerful. Not OP, but at least viable as a build. The only downside is that Exalted Feats run out really fast. As in, I was level 6 and had picked most of the ones I wanted. :smallfrown:

Talya
2008-05-02, 06:44 AM
I actually have played a Gestalt Catfolk VoP Unarmored Swordsage//Paladin (No alignment restrictions) in a low-level game, and it was pretty powerful. Not OP, but at least viable as a build. The only downside is that Exalted Feats run out really fast. As in, I was level 6 and had picked most of the ones I wanted. :smallfrown:

I have no trouble finding ones I like. The below is for unarmed-melee types. (Obviously, some substitutions occur for other classes.)

Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
----
Nymph's Kiss
Intuitive Attack
Nimbus of Light
Holy Radiance
Stigmata
Fist of the Heavens
Quell the Profane
Sanctify Ki Strike (if your monk level is too high for your own good)
Sanctify Natural Attack/Martial Strike (if your monk level is mercifully low)
Holy Ki Strike (if your DM allows sanctify natural attack/martial strike as qualifiers)
Touch of Golden Ice
Vow of Abstinence

Eldariel
2008-05-02, 07:29 AM
I don't understand how the first two levels of Kensei help there. I don't see where either signature weapon or power surge (the Kensei's level 1 and 2 abilities) help break DR. Level 2 Kensei would let you add energy damage or something to your natural attacks, but you're getting better than that with exalted feats anyway, and I think the maneuvers are worth more. Plus stone-dragon strikes can always be substituted for full attacks when you need to beat DR. (I mean, what Swordsage doesn't take a stone dragon "mountain hammer" strike or similar?)

Exalted Strike makes your Unarmed Strikes Magic Weapons, so you can go ahead and make them Metalline with the +2 from Kensai. Mostly, the advantage over Stone Dragon-strikes would be that you get to full attack while piercing DR, since a Flurrying character's expected Full Attack damage with Improved Natural Attack tends to way exceed any Strike's expected damage.

Talya
2008-05-02, 08:35 AM
I am unfamiliar with "metalline." Is it only a +1 enhancement then? (I think your first enhancement bonus to any weapon needs to be the actual +1, after that you can start adding secondary qualities...of course if you have VOP, you can argue your weapons already have a +5 enhancement bonus...hmmm).

Edit: Found it in the FR Underdark book, it's +2. Which means it might not work with only 2 kensei, depending on the DM ruling. But there's another issue.


Metalline: The wileder can alter the composition of a metalline weapon from one kind of metal to another as a standard action. For instance, a metalline bastard sword can become an adamantine bastard sword or an iron bastard sword. Moderate Transmutation; CL 9th, craft magic arms and armor, polymorph any object; Price +2 bonus

Seems to me that this enhancement only works on items that are metal to start with, don't you think?

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 09:20 AM
Page 38 Magic Item Compendium
METALLINE
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: Standard (command)

The color and texture of this weapon seem to shift with each passing moment.

when you activate a metalline weapon, you can change its composition to adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron, or ordinary steel.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fabricate.
Cost to create: Varies

so, you could have a wooden, metalline club, which, when activated, can be changed to any of the listed metals.

So, yes, if +2 bonus is available, you can do it.

Shadow striking property from Tome of Magic, by contrast, is +3 bonus, and requires a metal striking surface, but can do alignments, and does not actually change, it just emulates the metal, so no adamantine object crushing abilities.

Talya
2008-05-02, 09:25 AM
Page 38 Magic Item Compendium
METALLINE
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: Standard (command)

The color and texture of this weapon seem to shift with each passing moment.

when you activate a metalline weapon, you can change its composition to adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron, or ordinary steel.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fabricate.
Cost to create: Varies

so, you could have a wooden, metalline club, which, when activated, can be changed to any of the listed metals.

What about your fists? how do you make them flesh again after?


So, yes, if =2 bonus is available, you can do it.


Again, though, doesn't a weapon have to be a normal +1 enhancement bonus weapon before you can add special abilities like Keen or metalline? (So there's no such thing as a "Keen Longsword." It has to be a +1 Keen Longsword for a total bonus of +2. Or a "Metalline Longsword" would need to be a +1 metalline longsword for a total bonus of +3. A weapon needs to have the +1 enhancement first before you can add special abilities, according to SRD RAW.)


In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 10:31 AM
Complete warrior does cover this: it says a kensei can imbue his masterwork longsword to be a +5 keen longsword, Same principle applies to unarmed strikes. All you have to do is remember to make the weapon, whatever it is, have at least +1 enhancement bonus in imbueing it.

Would apply for making magic items as well, you do not usually make the +1 property followed by the Keen property, you do it all at once.

Sure Striking from Faerun gives ability to overcome all alignment based DR: +1 bonus. so +1 sure striking metalline unarmed strike would cost same as +4 weapon. And you won't have to worry much about DR till the epic levels, especially if you take feat that allows you to have uarmed strike do other forms of damage than bludgeoning.

Talya
2008-05-02, 10:36 AM
Complete warrior does cover this: it says a kensei can imbue his masterwork longsword to be a +5 keen longsword, Same principle applies to unarmed strikes. All you have to do is remember to make the weapon, whatever it is, have at least +1 enhancement bonus in imbueing it.

Would apply for making magic items as well, you do not usually make the +1 property followed by the Keen property, you do it all at once.


Right, that's not the point.

You do imbue a +1 keen longsword all at once...but it has a total +2 weapon bonus, and costs accordingly.

Therefore, to add Metalline, yes, you could do a +1 metalline weapon all at once, but it would have a total bonus of +3, requiring more than 2 Kensei levels to do it. Merely being a Kensei doesn't allow you to skip the rules for enchanting magic weapons.

(Also, nobody's addressed the issue of applying metalline --which changes the actual composition of the weapon -- to one's fists/body.)

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 10:37 AM
it is not clear whether option to take property instead of bonus is possible: comlete warrior says and/or: maybe kensei is exception to the Enhancement Bonus rule, maybe he is not and needs at least +1 enhancement bonus to include any properties.

Just deactivating the metalline property turns fists to flesh. But by description, even deactivated weapon appears to shift a little: imagine guy with slightly shimmery hands.

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 10:49 AM
Harder question, how do you use the Kensei Imbue ability in conjuction with properties that have a fixed cost, rather than a +X bonus? Prismatic burst, slow burst, sizing, etc?

I'd check the money cost, compare it to the money cost for +X bonus weapons, and determine XP cost using money cost.

Chronos
2008-05-02, 11:33 AM
So, even if a Kensai with Metalline applied to his unarmed strikes has his hands permanently turned to steel...

How is this a problem?

Talya
2008-05-02, 11:34 AM
So, even if a Kensai with Metalline applied to his unarmed strikes has his hands permanently turned to steel...

How is this a problem?

Steel isn't all that flexible. Nor is it capable of much sensation.

Eldariel
2008-05-02, 12:22 PM
Metalline is Command-activated, which implies it's dismissable too. Keep 'em metal only for fights.

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 12:31 PM
wonder if anyone has tried to use epic rules with kensai: allowing 21st level kensei to imbue epic properties, at 10 times the XP price. For example, Fiery Power property, at 10 time normal xp cost for a total of +6 imbued properties?

Eldritch_Ent
2008-05-02, 06:34 PM
I always thought of the +1 as being a "cap" of sorts- Which is why we have "+1 flaming broadswords" and the like...

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-05-02, 06:39 PM
Vow of Poverty does have other benefits, though. For example, if you're going up against high-level casters, it protects you from being Disjunction-ed. Personally, though, I just like roleplaying exalted characters.

The best reason to play a character such as this =D

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-02, 07:36 PM
Tayla: I forget the book series, but there was a character known as Llew Silverhand who had, well, a silver hand. It was magic at work, and it functioned like a normal hand. He could feel, you could see mucles flex, but it was cool to the touch. So even if the ability is not a dismissable effect, there is fantasy grounds for the claim that it's a lot like normal. Besides, I can think of half a dozen fun things to do with cool hands. :smallamused:

Collin152
2008-05-02, 07:43 PM
Tayla: I forget the book series, but there was a character known as Llew Silverhand who had, well, a silver hand. It was magic at work, and it functioned like a normal hand. He could feel, you could see mucles flex, but it was cool to the touch. So even if the ability is not a dismissable effect, there is fantasy grounds for the claim that it's a lot like normal. Besides, I can think of half a dozen fun things to do with cool hands. :smallamused:

I could show you the other half dozen, any night you want.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-02, 07:53 PM
:smallbiggrin: The mob has spoken. Magical metal hands = good.

Talya
2008-05-02, 08:21 PM
Tayla: I forget the book series


The Song of Albion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Albion)

(Google is your friend!)

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-02, 09:41 PM
Yes! That's the series!

In any case, magic metal hands = good. You know you want to.

Collin152
2008-05-02, 10:08 PM
Yes! That's the series!

In any case, magic metal hands = good. You know you want to.

I know I want you to.

I prefer putting the word metal first, though.
Metal Magic Hands.
Magic Metal sounds a little... well, off.

streakster
2008-05-02, 10:17 PM
I know I want you to.

I prefer putting the word metal first, though.
Metal Magic Hands.
Magic Metal sounds a little... well, off.

Magic Metal?

Dragonforce!