How would you make a CoDzilla?

[evisiron]

I have had the term CoDzilla used a fair bit on these forums. A trip to the definitions post showed it was the phrase used for a 'broken' druid or cleric. A search revealed 500 or so threads with 'CoDzilla' but none seemed to address this issue.

How do you effectively make a CoDzilla?
If it shifts by personal preference, what would your CoDzilla be?

[SurlySeraph]

For a cleric: take Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell, and buy Nightsticks. Walk around with Divine Power, Righteous Might, Owl's Wisdom, and similar buffs on all day. Boost your caster level and cast Holy Word to instantly kill everything with no save.

For a Druid: take Natural Spell. Walk around as a giant spell-casting bear all day beating the crap out of everyone. Have your animal companion help out.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Cleric-Zilla: Really, you can do it with straight Cleric, but PrCing doesn't really matter as long as you keep the ability to cast 6th level Cleric spells. The trick is a handy little feat called Divine Metamagic. It's found in Complete Divine, and is deceptively powerful. In brief, you blow turn attempts to apply a specific metamagic feat without increasing the spell level of the spell. Use this in tandem with the metamagic feat Persist Spell, which turns the duration for any spell with a range of Personal, Area emenation centered on you, or fixed range, to 24 hours, regardless of original duration. Then, you apply this to the spell Divine Power. This effectively gives you full BAB, D10 HD, and in short, makes you a Fighter that can also heal everyone. If you have enough turn attempts, you can combo it with Righteous Might, which increases your size one category, gives you more strength and con, and DR/Evil (or /good if you're evil). Now you're a better melee combatant than a 'tank' class.

Druid-Zilla: Again, can be straight Druid, but this gets even more obscene with the PrC Master of Many Forms and Warshaper. Basically, this abuses Wild Shape to do the same thing Cleric Zilla does with DMM Persist, you're a better tank than a standard tank class, AND you can still cast.

In short, these builds makes a 'tank' obsolete, by filling both his role as well as his original role. This is why they are generally considered to be 'broken'.

[MeklorIlavator]

The druid aspect is likely the easiest: Play a druid, assign stats wisely(High Wisdom, High con), pick natural spell up at level six, have a bear companion, and your pretty much set. Wildshape turns you into a meele beast(Bears are excelent at this), and your summons are the best in the game. Remember, you have special features that are better than the entire progression of other classes.

Clerics are a bit harder. Use Divine Power to get your BaB up to par, use Righteous might for reach and DR. Divine Metamagic either lets you quicken these for free, or even better, persist them for free. This usually takes longer than the druid, though.

Edit:
Actually, its best not to PrC out of druid, as you lose a lot(Animal companion progression, spellcasting progression), usually for not that much. The big exception is the planar shepard.

[Nohwl]

what codzilla does is it makes it so another class is obsolete. its usually the fighter. i have heard that you can replace the wizard too, but havent seen something that would yet.

you buff yourself up with spells that will last all day and proceed to kill everything.

[Citizen Jenkins]

You don't build a CoDzilla, that's the point. Just take your regular cleric or Druid, give him either the obvious feats (Natural Spell) or a few buffs (Divine Power) and you've got a full spellcaster which (depending on your optimization) is somewhere between slightly below the Fighter and blowing him out of the water. Plus you usually have better skills than a Fighter. No real optimization required.

[Cuddly]

Well, until DMM came along, the cleric had to spend a few rounds putting up combat buffs if the party didn't have the luxury to get the on jump the enemies.

[Jack_Simth]

Clericzilla's slightly tricky Core, but basically amounts to spending a round to buff up then wading into melee. Divine Favor (Quickened), and either Divine Power or Righteous Might. Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) is used if you want to make it extreme, and Really make the Fighter redundant.

Druidzilla's easy. Find a Wildshape form with good strength, AC, and three or more attacks, take Natural Spell at 6th. Dump Str, Dex, and Charisma, pump Wisdom and Con. Run around with Barkskin and Greater Magic Fang all the time in wildshape. You're pretty much done.

That's for replacing the meatshield.

If you need to replace the trapfinder, you use a lot of summons to run around areas before you get there (the Elemental Summon reserve feat really helps for this, but you'll need to buy the appropriate language to make it work). Set everything off, and you know where it is, and can go around. You do need to be able to talk to all your summons - the celestial/fiendish Summons all understand common by default (technically), while the Druid will need to cast Speak With Animals as well to make this work. For the cleric, divinations can replace scouting; for the Druid, tiny or smaller animals, common to the area, cover for not having Hide and Move Silently as class skills.

To replace the Wizard (as a Cleric) you take the Magic and Travel domains, load up on the utility spells, and aquire wands/scrolls of the basic wizard party staple spells. Druid's got a harder time filling the Wizard's role, but it's mostly doable.

[Kizara]

As an aside, where the heck IN libris Mortis are Nightsticks? My DMM (Quicken) cleric needs more cheese! :)

Seriously, I looked through the equipment section like 4 times and don't see them. What page?

EDIT: Nevermind, found it. It's actually Rod of Nightstick for the record.

[TRM]

I have an add on question:

Would it be worth it to take a level of cleric in your Druid-zilla so you can get Divine Metamagic?

[monty]

Actually, its best not to PrC out of druid, as you lose a lot(Animal companion progression, spellcasting progression), usually for not that much. The big exception is the planar shepard.

If you go into Planar Shepherd, you don't need to CoDzilla. You already won.

[monty]

I have an add on question:

Would it be worth it to take a level of cleric in your Druid-zilla so you can get Divine Metamagic?

There's really nothing you need to persist for a druid. It's mostly just about abusing wildshape and Natural Spell.

[TheCountAlucard]

I have an add on question:

Would it be worth it to take a level of cleric in your Druid-zilla so you can get Divine Metamagic?

It's best if you have a Cha modifer of +4 and/or the Extra Turning feat. With a Cha mod of +4 or the Extra Turning feat, you could only Persistent Divine Metamagic a spell of sixth level or lower; with both, you could Persistent Divine Metamagic a 9th-level spell.

[monty]

It's best if you have a Cha modifer of +4 and/or the Extra Turning feat. With a Cha mod of +4 or the Extra Turning feat, you could only Persistent Divine Metamagic a spell of sixth level or lower; with both, you could Persistent Divine Metamagic a 9th-level spell.

I thought DMM was dependent on the level adjustment of the metamagic, not the spell level (in other words, a persisted 0-level spell or a persisted 9-level spell both cost 7 turn attempts).

[Cuddly]

Instead of losing a druid caster level to cleric, you could instead pick up a level in contemplative for a bonus domain. make that undeath, and you get turning.

Not worth it, imo.

[TheCountAlucard]

I thought DMM was dependent on the level adjustment of the metamagic, not the spell level (in other words, a persisted 0-level spell or a persisted 9-level spell both cost 7 turn attempts).

Ah, jeez, you're right! My mistake! Umm, yeah.

[NephandiMan]

Of course, you would still need a Charisma bonus of +7 (which means a Cha of 18 and a Cloak of Cha +6), and Extra Turning or a Nightstick, to DMM Persist both Divine Power and Righteous Might.

And no, for the record it's actually just a Nightstick. It's not a Rod of Nightstick any more than the Scepter of the Netherworld is a Rod of Scepter of the Netherworld.

[Kizara]

Of course, you would still need a Charisma bonus of +7 (which means a Cha of 18 and a Cloak of Cha +6), and Extra Turning or a Nightstick, to DMM Persist both Divine Power and Righteous Might.

And no, for the record it's actually just a Nightstick. It's not a Rod of Nightstick any more than the Scepter of the Netherworld is a Rod of Scepter of the Netherworld.

Yea, I feel stupid now.

[NephandiMan]

Sorry, didn't mean to make you feel stupid. Guess I should've put a smiley after my comment or something - it was intended to be faintly humorous.

[Laurellien]

If you want to ratchet things up to the next level, instead become an Archivist and take a single level of sacred exorcist .:smallcool:

Back to the druid though, what book can you find warshaper in, and is MoMF any good to take all the way to level 10?

[de-trick]

thought of a way to easyily get a druid with turn attempts for DMM. Master of Radiance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=2)

TO get turning it would cost a druid 8 cc skill pionts in Knowledge religon, and 1 caster level

[Reel On, Love]

thought of a way to easyily get a druid with turn attempts for DMM. Master of Radiance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=2)

TO get turning it would cost a druid 8 cc skill pionts in Knowledge religon, and 1 caster level

...at which point you might just as well be taking 1 level of cleric instead, an getting 2 domain powers (Time for Imp. Init and Planning for Extend Spell? Pride to reroll 1s on saves? etc).

[Gorbash]

While we're at DMM... How does it work? Say, you choose Divine Metamagic (Persitent Spell) and then have to take Persistent Spell feat also, or does DMM gives you that feat? Or do you just take DMM and then it applies to all metamagic feats you take from that point on?

[MeklorIlavator]

The errata cleared that up: you need to have the metamagic feat that DMM applies to, and it only applies to one metamagic feat per time taken.

[Grommen]

Ok I just read rules for what your all referring too.

Never thought of using the feats in that way. I commend everyone for thinking this up. But I have only one question?

How many people would do this deliberately in a real role playing game? Why totally invalidate the other players just so you can look really kool? Personally in my games I would not allow it. Additionally my players would never dream of using it. Mostly cause it is unfair, but they would fear facing such a creature when one showed up to kill them (and trust me it would).

I'm hoping this is just for show, cause I was under the impression that Wizards were overbalanced :smallbiggrin: This is far worse. I fear for you all if people get away with this in games.

[Eldariel]

In other words:
-Cleric with Undeath and Planning-domains; you get free Extra Turnings and Extend Spell. Level 1 as a Human, pick up Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell. Given at least 10 Charisma: Congratulations, you just cast your first DMM Persisted spell. That means Divine Favor for whole day, for example.

If you want to optimize Druid:
-Get Fleshraker animal companion. Wildshape into Fleshraker. Get Mithril Breastplate (preferably Armor Check Penalty 0, so the unproficient animals aren't troubled by it) Bardings for both. Cast Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms) and Animal Growth both and cast Greater Magic Fang. Go to town with your half billion Pouncing Raking Poisonous Tripping Grapple attacks, each dealing 1d6 Acid per caster level + damage with your Strength-bonuses and Magic attacks.


Even in Core, Cleric indeed has Quickened boosts and Druid has Dire Animal-forms and companions with Bardings, Animal Growth, Greater Magic Fang and full casting on top of that. Start off with Wartrained Riding Dog, of course. Work your way up to Crocodiles, Brown Bears and eventually Dire Bears and Dire Tigers.

One of the major things for these classes' awesomeness is that they can make do with very low stats. Both are perfectly servicable with just maxed Wis and Con, although Cleric can make use of some Str and Cha too, while under level 6 Druids want some Dex, and both can of course always use Int (Druid especially with his superior skills).

[de-trick]

I dad a CoDzilla favored soul, but still waiting to get Persistent, but has quicken

[Toliudar]

How does that work? Favoured souls don't get turn attempts, so no DMM. And they're spontaneous casters, so no access to Quicken.

?

[de-trick]

1st I got turn attempts by MoR, and the second is the flaw in my plan, guess i got Persistent now.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Ok I just read rules for what your all referring too.

Never thought of using the feats in that way. I commend everyone for thinking this up. But I have only one question?

How many people would do this deliberately in a real role playing game? Why totally invalidate the other players just so you can look really kool? Personally in my games I would not allow it. Additionally my players would never dream of using it. Mostly cause it is unfair, but they would fear facing such a creature when one showed up to kill them (and trust me it would).

I'm hoping this is just for show, cause I was under the impression that Wizards were overbalanced :smallbiggrin: This is far worse. I fear for you all if people get away with this in games.

Yes, yes, powerplayers are antisocial hate machines who are out to ruin the game for everyone else, please please please tell us something we're not told 3+ times/day on this forum.

[comicshorse]

In a game I was in the Cleric had gone the Extend spell route but racked it up by taking a feat ( sorry can't remember what it was called) but it gave him a Divine Mount like a Paladin.
BUT any spell cast by a Paladin applies to jhis mount so all the clerics buffs applied to him and his mount. They were apartnership of death on legs that meant the rest of us were barely needed.
Happily the player realized how over-powered this was and asked the g.m. for permission to dump the Mount feat for something else. Needless to say the g.m. agreed v. quickly

[Waspinator]

I really don't know what Wizards was thinking when they made the Natural Spell feat. The thing is just plain too good. I always got the impression that the Druid's ability to turn into a strong animal was meant to be used as an alternative to spell casting so that they could, for example, help find weaker enemies as a bear in the early stages of an adventure and then turn back to cast spells against the major bad guys, having saved those spells as a bear. If you make them able to do both at once, the only reason a Druid ever has to turn back is to talk to people in towns without freaking them out.

[Funkyodor]

Don't forget, the Druid can't talk to the other PC's either. Acutally having the Druid describe his actions is very limiting. Also it's very boring.

[Ellisthion]

Boost your caster level and cast Holy Word to instantly kill everything with no save.

I've heard this before... how exactly do you boost your caster level?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I've heard this before... how exactly do you boost your caster level?

Ignoring all the various Ur-Priest cheese, some options are:

1) Cleric with Good Domain and Pearl of Power, minimal investiture of resources but Paralyzes for 1d10 minutes all creatures of his level.

2) Cleric with Good Domain/Heirophant taking +CL every level, Ioun Stones, multiple, Pearl of Power: Can no save kill anything of his level, and paralyze most enemies. Loses caster levels, and is a one trick pony though.

3) Anywhere in between.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I've heard this before... how exactly do you boost your caster level?

Cosmic Descryer for the frickin' win.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't forget, the Druid can't talk to the other PC's either. Acutally having the Druid describe his actions is very limiting. Also it's very boring.There are ways around that. Ghostwise Halflings FTW!

[Telonius]

Ok I just read rules for what your all referring too.

Never thought of using the feats in that way. I commend everyone for thinking this up. But I have only one question?

How many people would do this deliberately in a real role playing game? Why totally invalidate the other players just so you can look really kool? Personally in my games I would not allow it. Additionally my players would never dream of using it. Mostly cause it is unfair, but they would fear facing such a creature when one showed up to kill them (and trust me it would).

I'm hoping this is just for show, cause I was under the impression that Wizards were overbalanced :smallbiggrin: This is far worse. I fear for you all if people get away with this in games.

All of Druidzilla's components are in the PHB. Let's say a first-time player just read "The Hobbit," and wanted to play somebody like Beorn. He sees Druid in the PHB. "Oh, cool, there's a class where you can turn into an animal!" So he takes Druid, and starts turning into a bear as soon as he can. Then, all he has to do is take a feat that practically screams, "Hey, you with the Druid, take this feat!" So our first-time player has built a Druidzilla, completely by accident. Natural Spell is just that poorly thought-out, and quite a few DMs ban it.

[Waspinator]

Don't forget, the Druid can't talk to the other PC's either. Acutally having the Druid describe his actions is very limiting. Also it's very boring.
Have the party Wizard cast a permanent Tongues on himself, or if that doesn't work for understanding intelligent bears, a permanent Telepathic Bond. Then you have basically a translator for the Druid.

Also, though I'm not as sure of this one, if Sylvan is "the language of woodland creatures" (Druid class description) and Druids in a wild shape can talk to other animals of their type, couldn't anyone who learns Sylvan talk to a Druid as a bear?

[Eldariel]

Sylvan is the language of mostly the Fey; 'Woodland creatures' refers to the intelligent woodland beings. Animals lack the intelligence to speak; says at much at the description of Intelligence.

Bah, any midlevel party has Permanencied Rary's Telepathic Bond cast. That also means speaking isn't necessary. Also, if there's a Mindbender in the party, you can communicate through him.

[Leewei]

Don't forget, the Druid can't talk to the other PC's either. Acutally having the Druid describe his actions is very limiting. Also it's very boring.

Weirdly enough, I've found this fun -- if the Player is willing to use brief pantomime instead of lengthy description. Shrugging, nodding (yes), shaking head (no) as well as occasional animal noises:

Party leader: Think we can take them?
My druid (in Light Warhorse form): Nay.

...are adequate to the situation and don't unduly disrupt gameplay -- and can even be funny.

[Narthon the Bold]

Sylvan is the language of Dryads and Brownies and the like, Magical woodland creatured. Animals don't have a language.

[Waspinator]

Eh, fair enough. Still, the Telepathic Bond still works and is something that you would probably want to do anyway to ensure that everyone can communicate with each other no matter what happens.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Also, depending on how your DM interprets "Other animals of it's own type", you may be able to use the Wizard/Sorcerer's familiar as an interpreter.

[Draz74]

1st I got turn attempts by MoR, and the second is the flaw in my plan, guess i got Persistent now.

Or take the Rapid Metamagic feat from Complete Mage. Requires a heavy investment in Spellcraft, but gets rid of the "no Quicken" problem for good.