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Citizen Jenkins
2008-05-01, 08:44 PM
After reading through the latest multi-page thread touching on Wizards, uberness, and DM actions to counter it (Why the Hate for Balance?) I've noticed that most of the advice I've heard about dealing with an uber-wizard in game involves sitting down with the player and asking/hoping he'll tone it down. This is perfectly valid but not applicable in every situation. Sometimes you just don't know the player that well (entering and leaving college is a big reason) but also a lot of the time (in my experience) it's not that the wizard is insanely overpowered but just a bit of a step above everyone else.

Given that I may be looking at DMing for a new group over the summer with at least one potential powergamer, what I'm looking for are DM strategies to gently ratchet up the pressure on Wizards and various other Arcane spellcasters (if this goes well I'll address Divine spellcasters in a later thread) without also putting more pressure on melee combatants/non-spellcasters.

I realize this thread is touching on some controversial topics so I'd like to set a few ground rules to prevent this from going off-topic/degenerating to old arguments.

-Oberoni fallacy doesn't apply here. Sure, there's no perfect DM but I am (or will be) DMing, I can change the game, and I am looking for ways to improve it in terms of balance.

-Stick generally to RAW. If there's an easy little house rule I'm open to it but generally I like to stick to RAW both for simplicity's sake (the rules are complicated enough without me adding more) and also to make it easier to integrate into games.

-This thread is starting with the base assumption that Wizards, as a class, are considerably more powerful than a Fighter given equal levels of optimization. If you disagree with this presumption, pretend the Wizard is cheesed out and the other characters aren't.

Hopefully that should keep this on track. With that, I'll start this out with one simple tactic I saw which kept me in line.

Outsider Invasion:
Recently I was playing a semi-Batman wizard in a 8-12 level campaign (I'd sworn against killing living creatures so I focused on necromatic debuffs). The campaign was set as a plane-hoping adventure, however, and while my utility magic was really useful, I kept finding my offensive magic lacking. All the enemies had a wide set of energy resistances and SR. Even if I used Assay Resistance I found myself burning through my higher level spell slots at a frightening rate. Meanwhile the melee guys had just grabbed some blessed weapons and proceeded to keep going like nothing had changed. Worse, the outsider were all more likely to have flight, ranged spell-like abilities (especially Dispel Magic), and the ability to see invisibility than the things we'd fought on the Material Plane. I wasn't shut down but it definately made the fights more challenging.

Nohwl
2008-05-01, 08:51 PM
find enemies with spell resistence, or give them spell resistance. not enough to kill the wizards ability to help, but enough to give everyone else a chance in combat.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-01, 08:52 PM
It really comes down to what you consider an optimized wizard. What I consider an optimized wizard is far more powerful than what most people consider an optimized wizard. And you really can't challenge wizards of that power level with anything other than equally powerful wizards.

It also depends greatly on the specific wizards build, a lot of builds have weaknesses (as SR was in your example), and the level range that the game takes place in. Level 8-12 is far different from level 15-16, which is far different from 17-20.

Solo
2008-05-01, 09:08 PM
A higher level wizard would do it.

FlyMolo
2008-05-01, 09:08 PM
Um, attack the party at night every so often. Make it hard for the wizard to prepare spells, if you feel up to it. Wild magic zones to make things interesting.

Resistance, SR, and spellthief/something with dispel magic are all viable options.

Cuddly
2008-05-01, 09:12 PM
A wizard not having foresight up at all times will mean that the wizard can still get jumped, which means you can catch him without his n+1 defense up, where n is anything you throw at him.

At high levels, depending on the level of optimization (Tippy's characters require epic level challenges, unless you use equally optimized casters, which are really epic level in and of themselves), defeating wizards has to be totally contrived.

If you work from the assumption that a) wizards are really dangerous, and b) everyone knows it, then it follows that c) every high level creature will be prepared to deal with magic (cause it would have been killed by a wizard otherwise). This leads to everything having 3 levels of hexblade and two of blackguard, steadfast determination, or ethergaunts with levels of incantatrix. And mageslayer feats. Also, a lot AMF and dimensional anchors.

The last campaign where I played a Batman wizard (with a artificer cohort to buff everyone), the DM literally had to make up rules and give the monsters arbitrarily large touch ACs and saves so they didn't get wiped out in the first round of combat. We also had a thrallherd in the party who threw out similarily devastating save or become mine, bitch! And that was only level 15.

Proven_Paradox
2008-05-01, 09:15 PM
This may be going too far, but there's always the anit-magic field.

Another tactic is the liberal use of Silence effects. For example, before the fight, the enemy cleric casts Silence on, say, an arrow. Then the fighter (or whatever, someone good with a bow) shoot said arrow into the wizard during the surprise round or before he gets a chance to use wind wall. Another good target is the silenced Tanglefoot bag. In the case of a wizard, if he doesn't prepare any Silent spells or if he doesn't have a Silent metamagic rod, he's going to have to give up some actions getting out of the silence effect. Meanwhile, the fighter's going full throttle as normal. If he doesn't have access to a good Freedom effect yet, grappling is often effective as well.

Be willing to say "no" to stuff too. Use rule zero. My example is the Abrupt Jaunt ACF that replaces your familiar in Complete Mage. If you don't want to ban it outright, nerf it into a swift action rather than immediate. Things like that can help. Also, pick out some of the particularly cheesy spells (polymorph) and inform your players that they are banned or altered into something less cheesy beforehand.

If we're not talking full-blown Batman here, golems with spell immunity provide a good challenge, since they harshly cut down on the wizard's options. Batman wouldn't care that much, though.

Depending on the build, you might try hitting them with ability damage. Strength damage can reduce your standard wizard to a temporary paraplegic pretty quickly.

If we're pre-Foresight, surprise him. Smart enemies should realize that the dude with robes and a funny-looking hat is probably the most dangerous person there if they don't end him quickly, and during the surprise round they can take measures to disable him quickly.


The simple fact is that if you're talking about a fully optimized wizard and you're at high levels, you really don't have much choice but to sit down and negotiate with the player. Alternatively, you could talk to the fighter and try to guide him to stronger options (such as the Tome of Battle).

Solo
2008-05-01, 09:17 PM
This may be going too far, but there's always the anit-magic field.

Another tactic is the liberal use of Silence effects. For example, before the fight, the enemy cleric casts Silence on, say, an arrow. Then the fighter (or whatever, someone good with a bow) shoot said arrow into the wizard during the surprise round or before he gets a chance to use wind wall. Another good target is the silenced Tanglefoot bag. In the case of a wizard, if he doesn't prepare any Silent spells or if he doesn't have a Silent metamagic rod, he's going to have to give up some actions getting out of the silence effect. Meanwhile, the fighter's going full throttle as normal. If he doesn't have access to a good Freedom effect yet, grappling is often effective as well.

Silence allows a will save.

Flickerdart
2008-05-01, 09:25 PM
Stuff them into a land where books are forbidden and Sorcerers persecute everyone that memorizes spells. If it doesn't stop him, he'll have fun smuggling his spellbook in places and everybody wins.

Kizara
2008-05-01, 09:38 PM
Silence allows a will save.

The way I read it, only if you cast it directly on someone or something in their possesion.

Otherwise the "None" is relivant.

Read the description carefully, the part about will saves says "An unwilling create can attempt a Will save" after saying you can cast it on a creature.


For my money, the arrow of silence is a really nice plan.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-01, 09:39 PM
Drop lots of wands of cure light wounds in the party, and run marathons under time pressure, in a way that Teleport (and similiar shortcut spells) won't cure it. This'll go a long way towards balancing casters. Can be mostly bypassed if there is sufficient wealth

Get rid of the cheesiest spells (Core, that's Polymorph and it's ilk; specific highly broken commonly-cited spells outside of Core include the Celerity Line and Shivering Touch).

Require that any feat, spell, item, alternate class feature, or PrC, not in the PHB or DMG require specific DM approval.

Edit Spells like so: Require all spells that can take an opponent out of the fight without doing direct damage require a save and SR, all damaging spells require either a save or a touch attack, and all direct damage spells permit SR. Remove spells that lower/negate SR from the game, remove any feats that let you take 10 on caster level checks to beat SR. Apply these edits to the Core spells and effects, too.

Riffington
2008-05-01, 09:50 PM
Silence allows a will save.

Only if cast on a creature. Not if cast on a tanglefoot bag that is then thrown at a creature.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 09:56 PM
the problem is Foresight always allows the wizard to act in the surprise round. yuo can actually challenge wizards if Celerity + Foresight combo is not allowed. Otherwise, throw a Phane at the the wizard.

Speaking of which, can a non-epic Batman take down a Phane by himself?

Solo
2008-05-01, 09:56 PM
My interpretation of Silence is different from yours.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 09:57 PM
Solo is correct in that if you cast Silence on a creature, the creature gets a Will save if desired. Silenced Tanglefoot bags will work just fine though, if you can catch the wizard without Foresight.

Skjaldbakka
2008-05-01, 10:14 PM
Here is my method, which works for me.

1) Don't design encounters, design problems. Create a complicated mess of a situation, preferrably one that you have no idea how they would go about getting out of it. I'm not talking about "zOMG, that is CR 55+", but rather no-win situations. Although you could pit the party against a foe they have no chance of defeating in combat, and have them try to thwart its goals instead. Excaping a foe is much easier than defeating it, so you could have them destroy an artifact or something along that ilk, and then have the ubervillain try to kill them, and the party trying to survive long enough to find a way to beat him.

2) Don't be predictable. Wizard's prepare their spells in advance. Throw a few curveballs.

3) 4 encounters/day is a bad idea. At high level, 4 encounters a day is a vacation.

4) Have lots of things going on at once.

Riffington
2008-05-01, 11:37 PM
My interpretation of Silence is different from yours.

Under your interpretation, if I cast Silence on someone who fails his save and then runs through a crowd of preschoolers, does each preschooler get a will save to eliminate the spell?

Solo
2008-05-01, 11:38 PM
Should they not?

Cuddly
2008-05-02, 12:00 AM
Should they not?

It doesn't make sense that they would:

"Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks."

It creates absolute silence. If someone 30 feet away from the silence tried to shout through it, would he get a will save?

Frosty
2008-05-02, 12:17 AM
Should they not?

They should not. What the preschoolers can do is move out of range of the spell.

Solo
2008-05-02, 01:01 AM
The thing that bothers me about that interpretation of Silence can best be illustrated with an example:

*Four level 4 PCs enter a room with a level 10 BBEG wizard*

BBEG: I have you now!
PC Wizard: I cast Silence on a flagstone in the middle of the room, bathing the you in a field of Silence, thus preventing you from casting any spell that has a verbal component.
BBEG: Well ****. My glorious arcane powers have been rendered completely impotent by a simple level 2 spell cast by a wizard 6 levels lower than I.

Nohwl
2008-05-02, 01:03 AM
i think that each person in the area affected by silence would get a will save if they were unwilling. but im probably wrong.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-02, 02:42 AM
The thing that bothers me about that interpretation of Silence can best be illustrated with an example:

*Four level 4 PCs enter a room with a level 10 BBEG wizard*

BBEG: I have you now!
PC Wizard: I cast Silence on a flagstone in the middle of the room, bathing the you in a field of Silence, thus preventing you from casting any spell that has a verbal component.
BBEG: Well ****. My glorious arcane powers have been rendered completely impotent by a simple level 2 spell cast by a wizard 6 levels lower than I.

Yes Solo, that's how it works. Silence is the poor man's AMF and remarkably effective vs spellcasters (arcane or divine, does not matter).:smallbiggrin: Basically it's similar to a darkness spell-cast-on-a-stone-and-put-into-a-bag-trick. That likewise allows no save.

The tanglefoot bag silence spell is a good trick, Proven Paradox!

As advice for the OP: a PC wizard can be challenged in so many ways, you need to make sure that you do not spoil his game too quickly.
Only at the very high levels (when 9th level spells are around providing some 24/7 good protection) you can take the gloves of.
For all levels:
- spells need to overcome various obstacles to actually work. Intelligent enemies will use them. For instance: silence or pinning (obstructing vocal component of spells), grappling (obstructing somatic components of spells), stealing/disarming (obstructing material component of spells). Most spells need visible targets (so a concealment stops them altogether)
- wizards have spells/day. Not "spells always prepared for all contingencies" or even "automatic regaining spells overnight".
- enemy ambush/surprise
Hmmm...somewhat reminiscent of ways to challenge also the non-casters like
- weapon attacks need to overcome various obstacles to actually work and often need visible targets...
- non-casters do not automatically regain lost Hp
- enemy ambush/surprise...

You get the idea :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Cuddly
2008-05-02, 02:49 AM
Yep. That's why it's handy to prep a few key spells with the silent spell feat applied. Or, you know, the BBEG could just move 20 feet and cast.

Skjaldbakka
2008-05-02, 02:52 AM
non-casters do not automatically regain lost HP

1) not a big issue, given the tendency to 'heal-dump' in most games I've been in. That being the casting of available spell slots to ensure that everyone is at full HP before going to sleep, if said slots are available.

2) I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you meant for no-one to automatically regain HP overnight. Even though that makes no sense- people do heal naturally, you know, and not everybody is a spellcaster.


Yep. That's why it's handy to prep a few key spells with the silent spell feat applied. Or, you know, the BBEG could just move 20 feet and cast.

I completely shut down the opposition's spellcaster in a game by casting silence on myself after an invisibility spell and readying actions to stay on the caster's toes. He got one spell off before I got the combination off.

Citizen Jenkins
2008-05-02, 02:57 AM
A higher level wizard would do it.
Doesn't exactly make the fight easier for everyone else in the party.

I'm not really concerned about Cindy level wizards because at that point you either talk with the player or just kill the wizard. Also, I don't think I've ever played a game at that level and I don't know anyone who has. I'm more concerned with wizards at both lower levels and at least mildly lower optimization. Ideally we're discussing low-mid/high level optimized wizards from levels 5 to 15.

I'm not so sure about Silence and Anti-Magic Field. First, they seem like the kinda of tricks that work once or at best rarely. After a while the wizard just starts preparing silent/instant conjuration spells, moves out of the fields before casting, etc. Ruining a casters sleep cycle or stealing their spellbook also falls into this category, it works once. I'm not looking for ways to run a single effective encounter, I'm looking for longer term strategies and things I can throw at the wizards encounter after encounter which will limit them without crushing the rest of the party or singling out the wizard.

A few questions:
How effective have people found incorporeal undead or burrowing/earth sliding monsters (ie block line of effect)?
Spellthieves or Rogue guilds seem like a good idea against lower level spellcasters. Any suggestions for strategies?
How do you make golems a credible threat given their horrible Int?


Here is my method, which works for me.
1) Don't design encounters, design problems. Create a complicated mess of a situation, preferrably one that you have no idea how they would go about getting out of it. I'm not talking about "zOMG, that is CR 55+", but rather no-win situations. Although you could pit the party against a foe they have no chance of defeating in combat, and have them try to thwart its goals instead. Excaping a foe is much easier than defeating it, so you could have them destroy an artifact or something along that ilk, and then have the ubervillain try to kill them, and the party trying to survive long enough to find a way to beat him.

I'm not so sure that this is the best strategy. Sure, the more things the party is juggling the harder it is but wizards have so many utility spells I think they'll cope better than a lot of other classes.

Incidentally, I'm of the opinion that Silence both does not allow a save unless cast directly on the character and is quite easy to walk away from.

Kami2awa
2008-05-02, 03:37 AM
Um, attack the party at night every so often. Make it hard for the wizard to prepare spells, if you feel up to it. Wild magic zones to make things interesting.

Resistance, SR, and spellthief/something with dispel magic are all viable options.

Wild Magic is FUN. Or adapt a system from some other game (WH Fantasy, Call of Cthulhu, Mage etc.) where magic is corrupting, dangerous, etc. etc.

Talya
2008-05-02, 06:52 AM
Keeping them unable to rest or take time to memorize spells for long periods to force spell economy, is the big one. This is very easy to do. The world goes on while they're in their mordenkainen's magificent mansions.

Keep them useful, but guessing. Make sure they don't know the weaknesses of what you are pitting them up against. With Freedom of Movement, SR (or better yet, immunity to magic like a construct), high saves, resistances, touch AC modifiers, and DR (your worst choice, for obvious reasons), you have plenty of options to boost opponents.

Don't boost every category. Keep 'em guessing, but leave them a way to be useful.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 07:07 AM
Of course, a Psion with Metafaculty, hypercognition, and Sensitivity to psychic impressions will be able to find any wizard, know how to disable his protections, and use the errataed no save Ego whip to spank his ass until he's a gibbering wreck. There's a reason they're called Joker Psions.

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 07:09 AM
Dragon Magazine had suggestions for partly weakening the Scry-teleport-kill tendency.

Epic spellcasting- I have seen lots of claims of its overdone-ness, but I got the imperssion that some of it was the DM cutting the players too much slack.

Items of +30 Spellcraft. None actually exist: Dm does not have to allow players full access to homebrew items.
Creating objects: Remember Conjure always has a duration: once all boosting factors are applied, but before all mitigating factors are applied, you must multiply the Spellcraft DC by 5 to make it permanent.
Duration: if any assisting casters interrupted (killing?) during a multiple round ritual, spell should not work.
Ad hoc DCs: Dm should think about using these.

In the same vein, I have heard of the Gaterape trick. Logical problems:
Mindrape allows a save and spell resistance. Dragons have good Will saves. and LOTS of spell resistance.
Prismatic dragons aren't actually extraplanar creatures: the spell says you access another plane and summon extraplanar creatures.
Double HD limit: a 21st level wizard can only summon one 42 HD dragon, which will not have a very high caster level anyway.
Even if you are high enough level, DM does not automatically have to give the epic dragon the Epic spellcasting feat: they get bonus Improved spell Capacity feats automatically, but not epic spellcasting.

You get the general idea: Some of these things might be being exaggerated, though not all.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 07:13 AM
The key to Gaterape is asking the target to lower all protections, which they have to do, and using Wishes from your Gateraped Solar to get high CL scrolls of Gate.

Keld Denar
2008-05-02, 07:23 AM
Lots of things can challenge a powerful wizard. Monsters with a lot of HP and good fort/will saves (like aberitions) lower a wizards option to singlehandedly kill it. Clocking in at around 270 hp, a truely horrible umber hulk or 3 posses a decent problem. Fort and Will saves at +17/+15 respectively, multiple attacks at over +30, a burrow speed, and a nasty gaze attack make one a decent challenge for a level 10ish party, or 3ish for a level 13 party. Its got enough HD that spells like Enervation don't really slow it down to fast. Sure, the standard BC spells like Solid Fog and Wall of Force will keep it busy for a little while, but it'll keep coming by virtue of its burrow speed alone. Plus, the wizard has other things to worry about. Confused party members are just as dangerous as hungry monsters, so thats another aspect to consider. About the only method of easily taking one out was the combo of Quickened Ray of Clumsiness + rod Empowered Numbing Sphere.

Also,
Try putting the party in a situation where they have to nerf themselves a bit. One adventure I was on recently at level 15 involved infiltrating a coven of Illithid, including an Elder Brain (CR ~27ish?). The brain has a huge telepathic radius and the DC to counter it is MASSIVE. In order to move around, we had to rely on a couple scrolls of AMF to block its SU telepathy. We had several encounters around the coven, but every time we wanted to pass through where the brain was located, we had to shield ourselves. I was playing a fighter type character, and the AMF was a pretty huge hit to me, I can't imagine how bad the wiz and cleric with us felt. The only one that was really happy about it was the archer. It was a hugely exciting and memorable adventure that'll I'll probably remember for a long time, especially since we had pretty much been used to ezmoding through a good portion of what we faced.

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 07:34 AM
Wish is very, very tricky. Wish used that way deserved a smack down. Maybe no other wizard is that high level, so wish cannot create something that does not exist.

It says: can be compelled to fight for you, or perform some other service. Not- Must Obey All Orders. Lower Defenses might count as a much more serious act, that requires massive pay.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 07:40 AM
Wish is very, very tricky. Wish used that way deserved a smack down. Maybe no other wizard is that high level, so wish cannot create something that does not exist.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
* Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
It says: can be compelled to fight for you, or perform some other service. Not- Must Obey All Orders. Lower Defenses might count as a much more serious act, that requires massive pay.
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell. wordiness.

Saph
2008-05-02, 08:02 AM
Doesn't exactly make the fight easier for everyone else in the party.

I'm not really concerned about Cindy level wizards because at that point you either talk with the player or just kill the wizard. Also, I don't think I've ever played a game at that level and I don't know anyone who has. I'm more concerned with wizards at both lower levels and at least mildly lower optimization. Ideally we're discussing low-mid/high level optimized wizards from levels 5 to 15.

Okay, first off, do not take too seriously everything you read on this forum. Posters here have a tendency to heavily overrate the power of wizards, usually assuming that they'll be starting at level 20 and will have full knowledge of every opponent they'll encounter. I've played lots of D&D games with lots of different people and have yet to find the player who can make wizards as effective in practice as they're 'supposed' to be.

A few preventative measures are fine, but don't lose sleep worrying about a balance problem until you have actual, tangible evidence that it's going to be a problem in your game. Otherwise you're far more likely to frustrate your wizard players than to balance them. If you're really that worried about wizards, just ban the class and replace them with Sorcerers. Fast and easy.

My personal opinion is that wizards aren't significantly unbalanced until you get past level 10 or so. Until then, you should be fine. From level 11+, the casters will start to overshadow the rest of the party - but this is a problem with all full casters, Clerics and Druids as well, and specifically nerfing wizards won't solve it.

Finally, bear in mind that player skill/attitude is vastly more important than player class. A determined and reasonably skillful powergamer with a Fighter is going to cause far more problems for party balance than a RP-focused, team-player Wizard.


I'm not so sure about Silence and Anti-Magic Field. First, they seem like the kinda of tricks that work once or at best rarely.

Yes. They're also all-or-nothing. Either they cripple a caster completely, making him completely useless, or the caster just moves out of them, making them completely useless. Use them as an occasional surprise, not as a solution.


A few questions:
How effective have people found incorporeal undead or burrowing/earth sliding monsters (ie block line of effect)?

Very effective - but remember that they're effective against the entire party. Blocking line of sight is an good tactic against pretty much everyone.


Spellthieves or Rogue guilds seem like a good idea against lower level spellcasters. Any suggestions for strategies?

Either kill them in the surprise round, or steal their stuff and run before they even know you're there. Rogue-types in cities are very nasty against any class that doesn't have Listen/Spot as class skills, because it's ridiculously hard to detect them. (The solution is to use teamwork and employ the skillmonkey PCs as sensor devices.)


How do you make golems a credible threat given their horrible Int?

Just have them pre-programmed with a set of tactical instructions. They can still follow If-Then type orders, and the golem's creator is probably smart enough to forsee the obvious hitches. Beyond that, have them encountered in restricted environments where there isn't much room to manoevre.

- Saph

Psionic Dog
2008-05-02, 08:15 AM
So the group's starting at L8, say 9 an 5th level spells, and will be advancing to 12th, possibly beyond. It looks safe to assume this group will never have 9th level spells, much less epic spell-casting.

Since Citizen Jenkins isn't interested in the very low or very high levels we can ignore those completely.

Things A mid-level wizard can do:

•Rope Trick (Mordenkaine's Mansion at L 13)
—I've seen many posts that claim this is an instant uninterruptible rest for the PCs. Introduce intelligent scout that do nothing but follow the party from a distance/invisibility/hiding. If an organized enemy knows where your bolt hole is they can cook up lots of nasty things. Kobolds and other trapers might find a way to flood the area containing the rope trick. Magic societies might dispel the hideout, after gathering a small army. Psions might have taken the Transdimensional Power feat (Compleat Psionics) and lob attacks straight into the so-called safe spot.

•Nova
—If the wizard/sourcer uses enough spells in DnD the target will usual die. But what about the next encounter? And the one after that? Nothing makes the melee shine as when the all powerful wizard finally turns around and admits they are low on useful spells. In summery: Marathon battles.

•Other Source Books
If you read enough books you'll find the right spell. Seconding the suggestion that the DM must approve spells/feats/classes not in the PHB or DMG.

•Lots of other stuff
–Have other people point out cheasy problems and non-cheasy solutions.

Now, on to your questions:
Golom and low-int mosters. These work best when they either in large numbers (or large CRs) and latch on to the idea that that the PC's are food. The beast is now too stupid to stop attacking. Things that fight to the death are usually harder than stuff that runs away, unless the stuff that runs away tend to come back. Note: unless the vermin are also flying flight will solve the problem. Alternatively, use the Golom as a guardian. With their magic immunity wizards can't directly attack, and as a guardian it becomes harder to trap the creature in a location bypassibly.

Shadows and borrowers: Very effective, for the first few rounds. Especially if they have spring attack, in which case the game becomes readied-action-whack-a-mole. If they don't have spring attack they work like any other ambush. Readied-action-whack-a-mole generally hurts fighter (who lose full attacks) more than wizards who just lose their move action.

Rogues: In theory I suspect the game was probably designed like rock/paper/sizers: Rogue beats wizard beats fighter beats rogue. This hasn't quite happened in practice, but in theory sneak attack harassment is a danger to low AC/HP wizards and a challenge that skill monkeys with their high spot/listens or fighters with High flat footed ACs would respond better too. In theory. I've never played or seen played a spell thief so I can't comment their.

My number one suggestion? Start play at low/mid levels. Every group is different. If you start play when the wizards are only using L3/L4 spells (when the casters only slightly outshine the others classes) you have time to watch player tactics and develop challenging and interesting solutions as the players level. Its always easier to learn when the gap is small and growing than all at once when the gap is large and everyone starts optimized for their level.

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 08:23 AM
Create a magic item: yes. Create an epic magic item: no. It put a 25000 gp limit on non magic items: does same principle apply to magic ones? if not, it should.

One can choose to fail a save. But is that an action? If player says "I order the monster to fail his next save" very, very metagame.

DM should look closely at wishes and anything that looks overwhelmingly powerful. Wishing for an item that equals 5 wishes in power (those books) is an example of not very reasonable, especially given the item costs way more than 25000 gp.

Telonius
2008-05-02, 08:31 AM
3) 4 encounters/day is a bad idea. At high level, 4 encounters a day is a vacation.

4) Have lots of things going on at once.

Best two suggestions so far, IMO. Wizards, no matter how powerful they are, are still limited by actions and by spells per day. (By wealth and EXP too, for scribing scrolls). More than 4 encounters/day is probably the one method that is least visible by the players; therefore the one least likely to result in the players thinking they're being cheated.

If you are having multiple encounters, bear in mind that they wear down the frontliners and healers as well as the wizard. Multiple foes that deliver moderate amounts of damage on successful hits (enough to threaten, but not enough to bring the barbarian to the brink of death) are probably your best bets. A favorite scenario of mine is "multiple sniper dens." A bunch of Rangers (or sorcerers, or warlocks) are hidden, relatively far away from each other, and blasting you. The Wizard will have to blow a few of his spells to either protect himself or take out one of the snipers, but taking them all out by magic would leave him very much depleted. So he either dominates that single encounter and is weak for the rest of the day (don't let him sleep then, either) or he does decently well, leaving fun for the rest of the party.

Swordguy
2008-05-02, 09:15 AM
From a DM's perspective? Burn the character sheet, hand your player a fresh one, and tell him to stop breaking your game.

For serious? I generally agree with Saph - endurance modules are the way to go, where there's a time limit before something bad happens and it doesn't matter that the mage can sit in his Mansion...the time limit's still there. It doesn't hurt fighters and hp-centric PCs so bad because there's more sources of healing than there are of spell rememorization. Unfortunately, these become very contrived if you do them very often, and the mage will feel targeted.

Alternatively, control what spells he gets in the first place. I interpret the following passage in the 3.5 PHB in a weird way:



At each new wizard level, she [the wizard] gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

I simply rule that the spells gained must be available to the wizard, via scroll, spellbook, or research (which has been paid for). As per the rules, there's no roll to understand the spell, and no cost to add it to the spellbook. But the knowledge doesn't suddenly materialize out of nowhere directly into the wizard's mind. With this house rule (it contradicts page 179 - "any two spells of her choice"), balancing wizards is a LOT easier - just don't introduce the "broken" spells via scroll or spellbook into the campaign and everybody's happier. Yes, yes, I know...it's a house rule. That makes me a non-RAW-following horribad person. It's also simple, makes sense, and works.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 09:26 AM
You know, I just realized that banning all metamagics with a +2 adjustment or higher solves a lot of problems.

Also, to make endurance runs WORK, I'd go so far as to suggest you give them a wand of Cure Light Wounds that never runs out of charges. Perfect for out of battle healing so they can keep going.

Jorkens
2008-05-02, 09:35 AM
Best two suggestions so far, IMO. Wizards, no matter how powerful they are, are still limited by actions and by spells per day. (By wealth and EXP too, for scribing scrolls). More than 4 encounters/day is probably the one method that is least visible by the players; therefore the one least likely to result in the players thinking they're being cheated.

If you are having multiple encounters, bear in mind that they wear down the frontliners and healers as well as the wizard.
Making healing more easily available is another way of getting around this. And if they start declaring 'bedtime' to be whenever the wizrd runs out of spells, start setting them tasks with a time limit. If the BBEG is going to destroy the world at midnight, taking eight hours kip because the wizard burnt his best spells on half a dozen kobolds isn't really an option.

Also, in general make sure that any antagonists (and anyone else) has taken into account the fact that wizards propose a serious threat to them. If being shot at is a serious concern for you, you're going to wear a bulletproof vest. If being jumped (or burgled, or scryed on, or dominated or whatever) by a hostile wizard is a serious concern for you, you're going to load up on as many rings of mind shielding or spell turning, AMFs, amulet against detection and location etc etc etc as you can. These things are probably going to be more easily available once a few smart artificers cotton on and start churning them out.

But perhaps more importantly, people are going to make their plans and prepare their defences on the assumption that their opponents are capable of becoming invisible, flying, walking through walls and so on. Thinking about the two most obvious ways to overcome a problem with magic and setting it up so they don't work so easily should force the wizard to think a bit harder about what to do or even (gasp) let someone else have a crack.

Edit: I'm not saying everyone should be so loaded up that the wizard is useless. Just that if you can afford 20 guards to man a checkpoint, you can probably run to some musical floorboards to catch out the smart alec who trys to just turn invisible and wander past.

Talya
2008-05-02, 09:45 AM
I forgot to mention, (in addition to the enforced spell economy/no resting after every encounter, and ensuring encounters have defenses against various spell types)--

Many weaker opponents with varied means of resisting different spell types are harder for a wizard to handle than a single tough opponent. Few save-or-X spells are area, and those that are tend to allow SR as well. It is the no-save, no SR spells that are hardest to deal with as a DM, but most of those are single target. (They still need freedom of movement...at least some of them, or fog spells will ruin your day.)

Banshee Wail and Weird will get more use then, but again, those are spells that are easily resisted/defended against.

valadil
2008-05-02, 09:54 AM
I'd like to agree with both time limits and more encounters. Hell you could even combine several encounters into one big encounter. Who cares if the wizard took out 10 demons and a CR 20 warlock before his initiative if there's still 2 more enemy casters and a buttload of mooks?

What I'd like to add is that it should not always be clear who the enemy is. If two groups are fighting and each call to the aid of the party, who should the PCs help? What if there are alliances within the group going to different sides in the conflict? It doesn't matter what spells the wizard has if he doesn't know who to kill. Maybe he could find a way to shut down the whole fight without killing anybody. Obviously you can't make all your encounters like this but one or two would be interesting.

Talya
2008-05-02, 09:59 AM
A wizard can still be effective in any situation, btw, just by using conjuration or abjuration. If the wizard ends up spending his spells buffing the melee types, or summoning more melee types, as a DM, you've already balanced him for this encounter. He's being extremely useful, but not winning the encounter himself.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-02, 11:20 AM
Nothing makes the Fighters die like trying to do anything with a Wizard out of spell slots. If you seriously intend to run the Wizard out of spell slots, take the CR of all encounters down 1-3 that occur after he has used all of his highest two spell levels.

If you intend to force the Wizard to expend spells slower, Tell Them, I'm the stingiest man alive when it comes to spells, trying to accomplish with nothing above 3rd level spells what I really should be using my 6th and higher for, but other players (rightfully) expend spell slots based on the four encounters a day. If you don't tell them in advance that you are running eight, they aren't failures at resource management they are being mislead.

Also, take note of who actually suggests resting. When the Wizard says "I'm out of spells." and the Fighter's player decides they should rest, this should be a clue, maybe it's not those evil Wizards being jerks and slowing the fighters down, maybe it's the Fighters genuinely not wanting to die, and knowing they will if they fight without support from the rest of the party.

KoDT69
2008-05-02, 11:53 AM
Get rid of the cheesiest spells (Core, that's Polymorph and it's ilk; specific highly broken commonly-cited spells outside of Core include the Celerity Line and Shivering Touch).

Require that any feat, spell, item, alternate class feature, or PrC, not in the PHB or DMG require specific DM approval.

Edit Spells like so: Require all spells that can take an opponent out of the fight without doing direct damage require a save and SR, all damaging spells require either a save or a touch attack, and all direct damage spells permit SR. Remove spells that lower/negate SR from the game, remove any feats that let you take 10 on caster level checks to beat SR. Apply these edits to the Core spells and effects, too.

I agree that these would be the bulk of the problem. Some of those spells were most likely created to be "teh pwnz0r" intentionally to sell the books. No automatic win spells should exist, period. The last part I use and it works fine. No spell can bypass SR without the roll, no assay resist type stuff, and the only spells that DON'T allow a save are ray type blasty spells with the ranged touch attack. I let my casters use the DMG guidelines to make cones, blasts, lines, or rays with lightning, fire, or cold without requiring a spell to be in their known list or spellbook. Evocations are weak, so let them have em free. Any other spells gets a save and SR regardless.


You know, I just realized that banning all metamagics with a +2 adjustment or higher solves a lot of problems.

Yes, metamagics can ruin a campaign when used wrong. Stuff like Still and Silent Spell, even Maximize all made great sense to put in. Quicken, Intensify, Twin, whatever... The ones that allow multiple castings or equivalent are overbearing. Also, Arcane Reach is kinda cool, but the one limiting factor should still exist. There are some things you would not want to touch physically, so you should suffer that effect even at range.


If you intend to force the Wizard to expend spells slower, Tell Them, I'm the stingiest man alive when it comes to spells, trying to accomplish with nothing above 3rd level spells what I really should be using my 6th and higher for, but other players (rightfully) expend spell slots based on the four encounters a day. If you don't tell them in advance that you are running eight, they aren't failures at resource management they are being mislead.

That could be OK, but I prefer to let them find out the hard way. Not because I'm mean, but because they should learn to be cautious with their spells per day. If you tell them in advance how many encounters to plan for, they will find a way to maximize the collateral damage. If they are in the dark, they might not Nova every encounter.

valadil
2008-05-02, 12:08 PM
That could be OK, but I prefer to let them find out the hard way. Not because I'm mean, but because they should learn to be cautious with their spells per day. If you tell them in advance how many encounters to plan for, they will find a way to maximize the collateral damage. If they are in the dark, they might not Nova every encounter.

You could always show them one session with a single encounter and then throw down 8 encounters the next game. Set a precedent so they know that there is the option for a longer fight. That might be more effective than outright telling them to reserve spells today.

Jorkens
2008-05-02, 12:25 PM
Surely the answer is just to tell them from the word go that the number of encounters per day isn't going to be stuck at four - telling them in advance how many encounters to expect on any given day is going to get a bit silly (particularly if they manage to create or avoid a few by not sticking to your railroad tracks), but half killing the party in the first session because the wizard assumes you'll play like all his previous DMs is probably going to get you off on a bad footing with new players.

xPANCAKEx
2008-05-02, 12:45 PM
grappletastic encounters

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 12:51 PM
grappletastic encountersFreedom of Movement. Also, basic defenses are usually pretty good at stopping that. Overland Flight+Invisibility, for example, should make it pretty hard for most enemies to grapple you even without FoM, and a good Wizard has those standard.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-02, 12:52 PM
That could be OK, but I prefer to let them find out the hard way. Not because I'm mean, but because they should learn to be cautious with their spells per day. If you tell them in advance how many encounters to plan for, they will find a way to maximize the collateral damage. If they are in the dark, they might not Nova every encounter.

I'm not saying tell them how many encounters you are going to have, just: "Hey, that 4 encounters a day thing is out the window, I know you are strong so I expect more from you, it's only fair, so don't operate under that assumption."

If you seriously let them think 4 a day is what to expect and you start at around level 5-9, then force eight on them somehow, the first dead character is going to be the Fighter, followed by everyone else in a guaranteed TPK.

That's what happens when the Wizard runs out of spells. I'm not saying every party is doomed without a Wizard, but every party is doomed when they expend 57% of their resources, and then have to face a set up designed to drain them of 80% of their resources.

(25% from all the Wizards spells, half of the remaining 75 for 37. And of course 4 encounters of your CR is expected to drain 20% of your resources.)

xPANCAKEx
2008-05-02, 12:59 PM
grappletastic encounters

Hal
2008-05-02, 01:02 PM
I'm surprised it hasn't really come up yet, but give them situations where they can't just "magic" their way around the situation.

Create NPCs that they have to interact with, and figuring out how to interact with those NPCs will be key. For example, my DM threw us a a scenario where we had to interact with the mob. The mob stole a MacGuffin from us, and the only proof we knew it was them was the note their henchmen left behind that had instructions to get the item. So, a large part of the encounter was first getting the attention of the mob boss, then effectively negotiating for the return of the MacGuffin. There were other solutions, but this one couldn't really be solved with a fireball.

Also good, include situations where the players have to figure out what's going on. My favorite dungeon encounter I ever threw at my players involved a maze where you could only go left or right at each intersection; you couldn't go backwards or forwards. It's not as much of a D&D specific challenge, but it'll shake things up when your players can't just make their challenges go away with dice rolls.

Swordguy
2008-05-02, 01:04 PM
grappletastic encounters

Freedom of movement.

Eldariel
2008-05-02, 01:05 PM
It's often quite simple. To challenge a Wizard, you need:
-A stalker. They cannot fight what they can't locate. Darkstalker-using skilled assassin-characters, with Magic or otherwise, can be formidable dangers to the squishier party members.
-Other casters. Counterspellers, dispellers, translocators, etc. are all very able to counteract anything the PC Wizard is doing. Add to that the ability to attack the PC Wizard directly targeting his weaker saves and opposing casters are obviously formidable opponents.
-Occasional Gish/Stalker-type characters with specific anti-caster measures. A stalker attacking with AMF is going to disable all the Wizard's Contingencies and most defenses, making the lethal backstab easy. The Knife is still as good a counter to Magic as ever; just stick it to the right point.
-Dungeons. Generally casters have incredible mobility advantage over everyone else, making them almost untouchable (that's the main issue in fighting them). In dungeons with effects that stop dimensional travel, they're suddenly on a far more even field. Present them with opponents most at their own in such environments (HiPS Rogues) and they'll actually be the underdogs for once.
-Traps. Most casters lack ways for solving traps beyond 'send a bunch of summons into them and hope that the traps don't cause massive effects that can touch everyone else too'. Their mighty arcane powers are nigh' useless when they don't have anything to target them at. Of course, Beguilers sidestep this and generally, parties have the Monkey to clear those traps, but maybe some traps the Rogue may miss (for example, a temporal trap that's only occasionally there and occasionally isn't; if they are unlucky, it might not be there for the Rogue to discover) or some such.


Basically, limiting environmental conditions, tough-to-locate characters and other casters are good challenges for highlevel casters. Martial characters rarely are sufficient threats, although again, limiting environments, such as warded dungeons (Tomb of Horrors is a great example), are great equalizers in those terms. Also, magic items can balance the odds a bit too; most PC Wizards aren't going to use Disjunction and Rings of Counterspells can counteract Dispel-attempts to disable them temporarily.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 01:09 PM
Althought, I find that any more than 3 encounters per session is not realistic. There simply isn't enough time. What I'd do is just up the difficulty of the encounter without upping the lethality too much. Throw more enemies at them...give enemies a 50% HP boost...give enemies a feat that lets them get a saving throw against negative levels even if there isn't a save allowed normally. anything to waste more of the party's resources.

Besides, fighting thru 1000 mooks is not as fun as taking down 2 to 3 totally badass enemies supported by 12 mooks.

Saph
2008-05-02, 01:30 PM
Althought, I find that any more than 3 encounters per session is not realistic. There simply isn't enough time.

It does happen. In the campaign I'm playing at the moment, we've been fighting almost non-stop for 4 sessions. So far, we've had about 12 encounters, all in the same game day. We're currently level 4. As you can imagine, the casters are not happy. :P

I think the longest I've ever done was an episode in one campaign where we did about fifteen separate fights over the course of a few game-hours, several of which were against literally infinite numbers of enemies. That time I was playing a caster, but since I was a wild-shape-capable Druid, it wasn't so bad.

- Saph

Solo
2008-05-02, 02:33 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the vague, vague, vague feeling that level 2 spells should not be able to shut down level 10 casters.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 02:40 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the vague, vague, vague feeling that level 2 spells should not be able to shut down level 10 casters.A Lesser Rod of Silence costs how much, exactly? Or the Sudden Silent feat? Or, you know, just taking the move action (the one that never matters for a spellcaster) and walking 10 feet to the side. Its a second level spell that forces any spellcaster(no other classes) to move, and stay out of a specific area. It has a built in counter, though, and has no means of keeping them from moving. It's a caster-only version of Solid Fog.
Alternatively, it can be used for save-or-lose. That doesn't seem overpowered.

Hal
2008-05-02, 02:58 PM
Silence is really a problem in enclosed spaces, where someone can't escape the effect.

One time, a high level wizard and his entourage were staying at a small inn, and my players knew it. The cleric cast Silence on the fighter around midnight and the fighter just walked into all of the inn rooms and slaughtered everyone as they slept. What should have been a difficult and challenging battle was just several rounds of coup de grace by the fighter.

ryuteki
2008-05-02, 04:22 PM
Silence is really a problem in enclosed spaces, where someone can't escape the effect.

One time, a high level wizard and his entourage were staying at a small inn, and my players knew it. The cleric cast Silence on the fighter around midnight and the fighter just walked into all of the inn rooms and slaughtered everyone as they slept. What should have been a difficult and challenging battle was just several rounds of coup de grace by the fighter.

We have five senses (more sometimes in D&D, such as the Alarm spell or other Detections). A fighter clunking around can still shake the floorboards, and therefore the bed. Air still moves and creates wind and pressure. It is always possible that someone will wake up as a result of one of these. Most high-level wizards will either leave an underling on guard or put up one of the many low-level defensive spells availalbe to him.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 04:24 PM
Pass without Trace and Fly also help.

Talya
2008-05-02, 05:09 PM
•Other Source Books
If you read enough books you'll find the right spell. Seconding the suggestion that the DM must approve spells/feats/classes not in the PHB or DMG.



I'd also like to point out that this isn't a "houserule." By default, the only thing in the game is Core/SRD. Things from other sources are not part of the game unless the DM says they are (which also isn't really a "housreule" so much as setting the scope of the game.)

Removing things from core? Those are houserules.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-02, 06:13 PM
I'd also like to point out that this isn't a "houserule." By default, the only thing in the game is Core/SRD. Things from other sources are not part of the game unless the DM says they are (which also isn't really a "housreule" so much as setting the scope of the game.)

Removing things from core? Those are houserules.

Not true at all. "Core" is not reflected anywhere in the rules. Anything that is not setting specific (or is if it is the setting you are in) is automatically a listed option in any game of D&D unless the DM specifically says otherwise. You no more need to ask permission to use the Spell Compendium then you do to use the PHB spell list.

Rutee
2008-05-02, 06:41 PM
...No, CoV. Outside of Core, you do need to ask GM permission. Which isn't to say you can just automatically assume it'll be banned, but if your cleric, say, busts out a Revivify mid-battle without consulting with the GM first, they'll probably go "WTF!?" and retcon the action. At least, it's a reasonable reaction.

You /are/ correct that the rules themselves don't care though.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-02, 06:51 PM
...No, CoV. Outside of Core, you do need to ask GM permission. Which isn't to say you can just automatically assume it'll be banned, but if your cleric, say, busts out a Revivify mid-battle without consulting with the GM first, they'll probably go "WTF!?" and retcon the action. At least, it's a reasonable reaction.


You /are/ correct that the rules themselves don't care though.

These seem to be 2 contradictory ideas. Rules wise when or where something was published is irrelevant unless 2 rules contradict each other (you go with newer source) or they are from different versions (in which case you go with whatever version you are playing with).

Now if a DM doesn't have a book it is in polite to break out stuff from it without asking first, but it isn't against any game rules (which is not to say that the DM shouldn't whack you with a book if you try it).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-02, 07:10 PM
Exactly what Tippy said.

Rutee
2008-05-02, 07:36 PM
These seem to be 2 contradictory ideas. Rules wise when or where something was published is irrelevant unless 2 rules contradict each other (you go with newer source) or they are from different versions (in which case you go with whatever version you are playing with).

Now if a DM doesn't have a book it is in polite to break out stuff from it without asking first, but it isn't against any game rules (which is not to say that the DM shouldn't whack you with a book if you try it).

There is very little contradiction between those two ideas; The first is predicated on the GM, the second is predicated on the Rules. The two entities are not intertwined in any sense. I didn't say you were making a rules violation by using a book a GM hasn't approved of (Or more realistically, looked over.. again not inherently entwined ideas :smallbiggrin:), I said the GM would probably smack you and/or retcon the action.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-03, 03:56 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the vague, vague, vague feeling that level 2 spells should not be able to shut down level 10 casters.

What about Hold Person?:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Eldariel
2008-05-03, 06:58 AM
He means "Without Will-save."