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View Full Version : Beguiler fluff. How do they cast?



Frosty
2008-05-01, 10:00 PM
fluff-wise, are Beguilers supposed to be like Sorcerers in that their spellcasting talent are innate, and they sort of just will the world to change to their liking? But they don't have that great of a force of personality. What, they'rejust so smart the world changes for them?

Rutee
2008-05-01, 10:02 PM
Run it like Haruhi.

You know you want to :smallbiggrin:

Tengu
2008-05-01, 10:05 PM
Beguilers cast with the power of their Archetypical Evil Vizierness.

The Evil part is optional.

Solo
2008-05-01, 10:06 PM
Beguilers beguile the multiverse into thinking their Int score is a Cha score when it comes to casting.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 10:08 PM
Ok, while this is all entertaining (and yes, I had considered Haruhi-style for a moment :smalltongue:) I'm looking for a serious answer since the PHB2 apparently doesn't specify.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 10:09 PM
Assassins also have Int-based spontaneous casting, for reference. And Duskblades.

The way I see it, Beguilers and Assassins learn a certain selection of rote spells so well that they can cast any of them on the fly. This makes especial sense for Beguilers because they always know their whole spell list (which makes my poor Changeling Duskblade cry).

Leewei
2008-05-01, 10:12 PM
I see Beguilers as being consummate tricksters and liars, too smart for their own good. Their understanding of thoughts and shadows is what fuels their spells.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 10:12 PM
But it makes my Changeling Beguile happy!

So you think they actually study the theories of magic like a wizard does but they kind of just memorize a few of them really really well so they always have them? And Advanced learning is them going out of their way to learn another one?

Rutee
2008-05-01, 10:14 PM
Ok, while this is all entertaining (and yes, I had considered Haruhi-style for a moment :smalltongue:) I'm looking for a serious answer since the PHB2 apparently doesn't specify.

...I was serious...

Flickerdart
2008-05-01, 10:16 PM
I think it's less about theory and more like "oh hey a neat trick, I'm gonna remember this for later" and Advanced Learning is essentially just filching a Wizard spell without going into detail about the theories and junk. Just get the gist of how it's done and head out.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 10:16 PM
...I was serious...

to be honest, I really see Haruhi's stats as such: Str, Dex, Con = 18. Int = 19. Cha = 40. Wis = 6.

if anything, Haruhi would be a cha-based caster. Please don't be upset at me!

Collin152
2008-05-01, 10:21 PM
They outsmart the universe into thinking their perceptions of reality are correct.

monty
2008-05-01, 10:34 PM
Isn't that like how sorcerers cast?

Universe, you're wrong. I can do that. *rolls bluff check*

CASTLEMIKE
2008-05-01, 10:41 PM
The same as Warmages.

EvilElitest
2008-05-01, 10:44 PM
to be honest, I really see Haruhi's stats as such: Str, Dex, Con = 18. Int = 19. Cha = 40. Wis = 6.

if anything, Haruhi would be a cha-based caster. Please don't be upset at me!

She didn't seem very intellegent to me actually, just super chrismatic
from
EE

Reel On, Love
2008-05-01, 10:45 PM
Beguilers cast however you want them to. Are they just flirting with actual magic, memorizing spells? Do they discover inborn talent and reason out all the shapes it can take?
Did the first beguiler make a bargain with spirits eons ago, allowing modern beguilers to draw on that bargain?
Or maybe they draw on eldritch horrors that their minds don't allow them to conceive of, and weaken the fabric of reality every time they spellcast.

Up to you.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 10:49 PM
She didn't seem very intellegent to me actually, just super chrismatic
from
EE

She's at the very least, MUCH smarter than Kyon. She aces her tests without studying.

EvilElitest
2008-05-01, 11:00 PM
She's at the very least, MUCH smarter than Kyon. She aces her tests without studying.

She seems to just have the universe powers to test well, he seems to be a much better big picture thinker than she is and uses his intellegence more
from
EE

Frosty
2008-05-01, 11:07 PM
She seems to just have the universe powers to test well, he seems to be a much better big picture thinker than she is and uses his intellegence more
from
EE

Big pciture thinking is probably wisdom? He probably also tries to apply himself more.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-02, 01:41 AM
I thought they were trined to cast spells (someone mentioned that in another thread about Beguillers). Do they have the same starting age as Wizards?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 01:50 AM
The Beguiler actually isn't casting a spell. He's altering a tiny portion of the universe, and has realized how that will change the world. So, for example, he's holding up a mirror, using magic to change it's surface, and the reflecting light makes a Silent Image. Like this (http://xkcd.com/378/).

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-02, 02:06 AM
How is that really different to how other Arcane spellcasters do things?

Kurald Galain
2008-05-02, 02:18 AM
Run it like Haruhi.

Is it just the resolution or is that a straitjacket (s)he's wearing in your sig?

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 06:29 AM
Maybe, like warmages, they are well drilled. Not sure.

Paul H
2008-05-02, 12:57 PM
Hi

I look at Beguilers as gifted Illusionist/Enchanters, and having a basic knowledge/understanding of all things arcana. They then extrapolate that knowledge for their own ends. (Think building bigger things from smaller building-blocks).

Advanced learning is when they're gifted with a particular insight, or just fortunate access to a wizards research.

Cheers
Paul H

Morty
2008-05-02, 01:27 PM
The way I see it, Beguilers learn spells just like wizards do, through study and practice but their focus on certain type of spells, i.e illusion and misdirection, allows them to cast spontaneously instead of preparing spells like wizards, as well as gain more training in skills.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 01:27 PM
But then why don't they need a spellbook?

Morty
2008-05-02, 01:37 PM
But then why don't they need a spellbook?

Because as they have rather narrow and focused field of specialization, they remember how to cast their spells all the time, and just need to rest to restore the magical energies in their minds. In other words, they use "light version" of arcane magic, without deeper understanding how it works.
It doesn't make much sense, but hey, it's magic.

Craig1f
2008-05-02, 01:41 PM
I disagree with the majority of responses to this thread.

IMAO: Beguilers are basically focused Sorcerers. Yes they use INT, but it's still an innate power. They cast spontaneously, they get a ton of spells, they don't use books. The only "learning" they do to gain their spells is through advanced learning. They use INT instead of Charisma, because their natural powers are intelligence driven, not force-of-personality driven. The fact that it's INT doesn't mean that it's not innate. They might have done that simply in order to provide more skill points, without pumping up social skills too much.

If they were like Wizards, they wouldn't have preselected spells.

My opinion is that War Mages are the same way.

Saph
2008-05-02, 01:42 PM
Ah, a perceptive question. To answer, it, we must take a journey back through the mists of time into the history of D&D 3.5. Grab a soda, and let us begin.

Now, at the beginning, in the 3.5 PHB, everything was spelt out very clearly. Wizards used Int for spellcasting by using their spellbooks and formulas. Bards and Sorcs used Cha for spellcasting by employing force of personality, with some blood-of-the-dragons stuff put in as an explanation. Spontaneously casting monsters, like dragons, also used Cha. And divine casters got spells as prayers directly from their gods, via Wis.

Then the splatbooks started coming out. If you look at one of the early splatbooks, Complete Arcane, there's quite a lot of detail explaining how warmages can cast spontaneously but don't get to pick their spells (they're drilled rigorously over many years). But they still use Cha, like sorcerers, so the whole thing still hangs together, more or less.

But by the time you get to the PHB II, there's no explanation anymore. Beguilers have the same spontaneous casting mechanic as Warmages, but use Int instead of Cha; Duskblades pick their spells like a sorcerer, but also use Int instead of Cha. This seems to contradict the earlier fluff.

How to explain this seeming contradiction, I hear you ask?

Well, here's the answer:

Somewhere in between Complete Arcane and PHB II, WotC writers decided they couldn't be bothered to justify their game mechanics decisions anymore and started mixing all the casting mechanics up without bothering to make it consistent.

. . .

What? I didn't say it was a satisfying answer. :P

- Saph

Craig1f
2008-05-02, 01:48 PM
Also, I'll point out that I'm very glad that INT is the spellcasting abillity. Because when I take a level of mindbender (2+INT) and 5 levels of shadowcraft mage (4+INT) I'll be very happy to still be getting enough skillpoints to maintain the 12+ skills that a beguiler needs to play his roll effectively.

Seriously though, they need to pump so damn many skills it's ridiculous. I'm in a party where I'm both the primary spellcaster and primary rogue.

Thank god the party Cleric took the Travel domain.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 02:01 PM
Also, I'll point out that I'm very glad that INT is the spellcasting abillity. Because when I take a level of mindbender (2+INT) and 5 levels of shadowcraft mage (4+INT) I'll be very happy to still be getting enough skillpoints to maintain the 12+ skills that a beguiler needs to play his roll effectively.

Seriously though, they need to pump so damn many skills it's ridiculous. I'm in a party where I'm both the primary spellcaster and primary rogue.

Thank god the party Cleric took the Travel domain.

Beguiler *are supposed to be* the primary Rogues.

Craig1f
2008-05-02, 02:24 PM
Beguiler *are supposed to be* the primary Rogues.

Oh I know. But in addition to needing to take every single primary rogue skill except lock picking (thank you Knock spell), you also need knowledge arcana, spellcraft, concentration, bluff (if you want to use the class ability for feinting), and whatever else I'm forgetting. And most of the skills you're expected to invest in are ones that scale with your level. Unlike things like swim or survival, where you can stop at 5, hide, spot, move silently, listen, search, disable device, spellcraft, and whatever else I'm forgetting all need to be maxed out at each level to be truly useful.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 02:27 PM
Yeah. I've always wished Beguilers get 8+int skill points per level. I usually completely ignore hide and move silently because I can turn invisible and cast Zone of Silence.

Tellah
2008-05-02, 02:43 PM
What follows is fluff, written by me, and is in no way an official answer to anything. I stole from Neil Gaiman a little, too.

On top of Mount Vindustren, in the necropolis Litharge, a very profitable industry has developed. Sitting atop a rift to the Shadow Realm, also called the underworld, the people of Litharge prepare the remains of wealthy patrons for their path into the hereafter. Although traditional mages practice magic in the old ways throughout Litharge, the area's connection to the Shadow has encouraged the development of new ways of willworking.

At the Shadeworkers' Guild, gifted students can learn to shape the power of the Shadow Realm, to carry it with them in their souls and use its essence to work their desires into reality. Within the guild are three schools, each focusing on turning the power of the shadow realm to a different purpose: the Order of the Beguiling Rote, the School of Shade's Expression, and H. West's Academy of Shadow Animation.

Students with a penchant for stealth, deception, and trickery are drawn to the Order of the Beguiling Rote. Their students draw the Shadow into themselves, and learn to use its power to "confuse, confound, conceal and convey." At the end of their training, the masters of the Order perform a secret initiation rite which binds the shadow essence into the student, which grows inside him steadily, refilling its reserves each night by drawing on shadow energies present in darkness. The student is now a Beguiler, fully learned in the rotes which direct the shadow essence within him, waiting only for the essence to grow strong enough to allow the expression of more powerful desires.

The School of Shade's Expression teaches Shadowcasters, who learn to pull shadow essence from their surroundings at will. H. West's Academy of Shadow Animation trains Dread Necromancers to replace the life force that escapes a patron at death with shadow essence.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 03:02 PM
*clap clap clap*

Craig1f
2008-05-02, 03:17 PM
Actually, here's a question. Do Beguilers need to rest for 8 hours and meditate for 1 to get their spells back like Sorcerers do? Or do they just replenish their spells in the morning without effort?

The class description doesn't say anything about spell recovery.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 03:34 PM
Actually, here's a question. Do Beguilers need to rest for 8 hours and meditate for 1 to get their spells back like Sorcerers do? Or do they just replenish their spells in the morning without effort?

The class description doesn't say anything about spell recovery.

I always go by the just plain 8 hours of sleep. No meditation required.

Devils_Advocate
2008-05-02, 05:50 PM
They use INT instead of Charisma, because their natural powers are intelligence driven, not force-of-personality driven.
That's like saying "He's not married because he's a bachelor." Rephrasing is not the same thing as explaining.


Somewhere in between Complete Arcane and PHB II, WotC writers decided they couldn't be bothered to justify their game mechanics decisions anymore and started mixing all the casting mechanics up without bothering to make it consistent.
The Assassin prestige class is a spontaneous Int-based caster right in the DMG.

I would find it kind of nice if they consistently kept to Wis-based prepared divine casting, Int-based prepared arcane casting, and Cha-based spontaneous arcane casting, just because it would make both the mental ability scores and the different types of casting more distinct from each other in how they work. But, as with the "every class is proficient with all armor that doesn't restrict the use of its class abilities" thingy, it's something that they only really stick with for the PHB base classes.


Actually, here's a question. Do Beguilers need to rest for 8 hours and meditate for 1 to get their spells back like Sorcerers do? Or do they just replenish their spells in the morning without effort?

The class description doesn't say anything about spell recovery.
Nor does the Favored Soul class, nor the Assassin PrC, if I recall correctly. Probably other spontaneous casters, too. For that matter, when do daily uses of barbarian rage, paladin smites, uses/day magic items, etc., come back? Rather annoyingly, the rules do not actually address this. Given that they also lack explicit penalties for not sleeping, the RAW actually seem to deal rather poorly with the fact that time gradually moves from one day to the next. Or, rather, they surprisingly frequently fail to deal with it at all.

They seem to be putting some real thought into giving everybody per encounter and per day abilities for 4E, so hopefully they'll wind up specifying when and how characters get those abilities back.

Talya
2008-05-02, 08:50 PM
Saph's post is, unfortunately, entirely accurate.

Tellah's post is much nicer from a "give me some fluff that works" perspective.

It also agrees with my general viewpoint on the nature of intelligence based casting.

Intelligence based casters take a studied, academic approach to spellcasting. No matter whether they meticulously prepare from a spellbook, or have a more limited list of spells they can cast at will, they cast based on magical theory and knowledge. They know how to coax it, to influence the fabric of magic to do their bidding.

Charisma based casters may or may not understand the academic theory behind what they are doing, but it is not any understanding they may have that lets them do so. They grab hold of the fabric of magic through sheer force of personality, and force it to their bidding by strength of will alone.

Wisdom based casters have a spiritual understanding of the nature of the multiverse and their place within it. They have learned to open themselves up to divine energies and channel them appropriately.

Constitution based spellcasters have players who need to put down the book of erotic fantasy and download some pr0n instead.

Some spellcasters use some of both. "Split-spellcasting-ability" casters, such as a favored soul, do have the same type of spiritual connection that a cleric does, but manipulate those divine energies with the same force of personality that a sorcerer uses.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-02, 08:56 PM
Saph's post is, unfortunately, entirely accurate.
Not entirely since, as someone said, there's an INT-based spontaneous caster right in the DMG.


Constitution based spellcasters have players who need to put down the book of erotic fantasy and download some pr0n instead.

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/9619/camel25ps.jpg

Saph
2008-05-03, 06:17 AM
The Assassin prestige class is a spontaneous Int-based caster right in the DMG.

Ah, but the Assassin was listed as 'Always Evil', so they didn't take so much time to work out the fluff for it, since they were assuming it would be a NPC class. I guess they were thinking that no player would ever want to play a dark, brooding character and call it an 'assassin'.

They learned otherwise after five solid years of non-stop complaints by players demanding good-aligned assassins, but by then they'd given up on making the fluff consistent anyway.

(As a sidenote, we may still have Monk threads on these boards, but at least we seem to have finally come to the end of the "Why do Assassins have to be evil?" threads. Of course, now I've said that, someone will probably make one tomorrow.)

- Saph

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-03, 06:20 AM
I never knew that about the Assassin. Where did you get that information from? (I always assumed it was meant as a PrC in 3rd Edition after being a base class in the 1st Edition).

bosssmiley
2008-05-03, 06:37 AM
Beguilers cast with the power of their Archetypical Evil Vizierness.

The Evil part is optional.

No, it isn't. The vizier is always Evil. It's natural law. :smallwink:


I see Beguilers as being consummate tricksters and liars, too smart for their own good. Their understanding of thoughts and shadows is what fuels their spells.

*Meh* They're a bunch of Moist von Lipwigs with caster levels? Works for me.

Jarlax
2008-05-03, 06:57 AM
to me a beguiler's spells act much like jedi mind tricks.

any components (somatic, verbal, etc) to their spells should be subtle and undetectable to anyone not trained to recognize them (eg. a spellcraft check). which is why jedi mind tricks make an excellent example. a subtle movement of their hands and added emphasis to their voice would reflect somatic and verbal components to their version of charm person.

Edit: in another life they may have taken up a life of sorcery or, had they been born with no magical talent, a life as a full rouge. their class represents individuals with the innate magical power of a sorcerer, who chose a profession of thievery and subterfuge, using their magic to enhance their skills, such as bluff, move silently and hide.

if you want to see what a beguiler might be like in a novel, read the city of ravens. which stars Jack Ravenwild, a little bit about him can be read here (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_Ravenwild)

jack is a rouge and wildfire mage, a wildfire mage is effectively a innate caster capable of a few minor spells. in jacks case they amount to alter self as an at will ability.

Frosty
2008-05-03, 11:36 AM
Dude. Perfect. Jedi Mind Tricks. "This is not the Beguiler you're looking for."

Deepblue706
2008-05-03, 11:44 AM
Beguilers cast however you want them to, because WotC nulls out its own precedents on how magic works, and leaves it making no sense.

Collin152
2008-05-03, 02:40 PM
Dude. Perfect. Jedi Mind Tricks. "This is not the Beguiler you're looking for."

"You don't need to see my face. These aren't the corpses you're looking for. Move along."
Suggestion=Jedi Mind Trick.

Tengu
2008-05-03, 02:49 PM
No, it isn't. The vizier is always Evil. It's natural law. :smallwink:


I know, but Beguilers don't have to be. Non-evil ones are probably dropouts from Vizier School.

Frosty
2008-05-03, 07:48 PM
Tengu, is that Kyon being eaten by a zombie? :smalleek:

TheOOB
2008-05-03, 08:41 PM
A Beguiler would cast spells almost exact ally like a warmage with just a few differences.

Magic in D&D is fairly regulated and regimented. You can't just improve a spell, combining different magical elements to do whatever it is you need at any given moment, magic can (usually) only be used in the form of spells. For divine magic the spells allready come pre-packaged from whatever power grants the spells. Arcane magic is much the same, except that the rituals (which I will call rotes for the remainder of this post) are made by humans.

A wizard spends most of their training understanding these rotes, how to craft them, how to use them, and how to copy them. They don't just learn them, they understand them. A wizard learns the importance of every word, every gesture, and as such they can pick up on rotes others have created fairly easily. They use int for their casting because as their understanding of the rotes increase, so do their ability to utilize them.

Warmages and Beguilers are different. They don't spend their time understanding the rotes(well, any more then anyone who takes the spellcraft skill), they just spend all their time learning the rotes, spending a great deal of time perfecting them, even ones they don't yet have the magical power necessary to perform yet. Since they focus on a narrow group of spells (which would have similar rotes) they can learn a lot more then wizards, but their lack of understanding of rotes besides the onces they where trained it(much less those from an opposed school) makes it very difficult to learn more. Warmages and Beguilders utilize their spells in the same way, they are just powered by different aspects of their mind. A warmages spells are direct and offensive, and the stronger their force of personality, the more power their spells poses. A beguilers spells, however, are subtle and indirect, their power comes from understanding the situation and applying the spell quickly and precisely, understanding all of the different variables.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-05-03, 08:51 PM
Beguilers learn things. They experiment, and then memorise how they got it. Like a wizard, but without the spellbook, because there's such a small amount of material covered, that they can remember it all without any help.

Collin152
2008-05-03, 09:34 PM
They're mutants.
Like psions, but with magic, not psionics.
Like sorcerers, but it works differantly.
It's exactly the same, only diferant.
But nothing like warmages.

TheOOB
2008-05-03, 09:38 PM
Or, the standard approch goes like this. Beguilers learn spells, they cast spells. Smart Beguilers cast better spells.

Tengu
2008-05-03, 10:19 PM
Tengu, is that Kyon being eaten by a zombie? :smalleek:

Gnawed upon. A lesson learned - don't let Haruhi get hooked on zombie flicks.

Frosty
2008-05-04, 11:08 AM
So it all boils down to: Wizarks are geeks who understand everything, and the others just kinda learn enough to do it and then move on?