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McClintock
2008-05-02, 08:26 AM
SO earlier I posted that I am in a group that my Warblade is going to over shadow. We have 4 players besides me, two of which will not care what happens. Of the other two one will not care, because he is trying a new class and just wants to check it out, the fourth will get jealous and pissy as soon as he realizes he is building a dumb character.

The option to switch is not there, so I am asking (read as begging and pleading) for help to optimize their characters.

Hu Warlock (open to most anything, but limit multiclassing to 2 total calsses)- chose sickening blast as first invocation, and ability focus: eldritch blast.

Hu Cleric (wants to be a rogue) of Kord (not sure what he is open to, so I need to dazzle him) DOMAINS: Luck & Force (not sure how he got this)

We can retrain feats if need be, so assume no feats chosen.

We can use all D&D d20 books, but try to keep it to completes, races, PHBII, ToB, MMII-IV, and core.

Thanks in advance, and my Warblade Hagen thanks you for keeping him in the game.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-02, 08:34 AM
The Warlock multiclassing as a Rogue after getting 4 Warlock levels would work better then the Cleric multiclassing (especially since he would lose caster levels by doing so). If his Dex and Int are good, I think there's a PrC called the Divine Trickster which wouks like an Arcane Trickster (if the Cleric multi-classes, she should qualify for this PrC ASAP).

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-02, 08:35 AM
Cleric wants optimising.

Woo, DMM.

McClintock
2008-05-02, 08:39 AM
Morkais - Thanks for the sarcasm... hadn't seen that for awhile

Tempest- where do I find the divine trickster?

And I don't want to help the cleric build a CoDZilla, I just want him to be able to have fun with his suboptimal build.

serok42
2008-05-02, 08:40 AM
think there's a PrC called the Divine Trickster which wouks like an Arcane Trickster (if the Cleric multi-classes, she should qualify for this PrC ASAP).

There is a Divine Prankster PrC but it works better for Bard/Clerics as opposed to Rogue/Clerics but it still may work.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-02, 08:47 AM
There's the Divine Trickster on this very website, that should work quite well (although Rogue of Kord sounds a bit unusual, with Luck rather than Strength it's not too weird a combo).

Here is the Divine Trickster. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/5M5QGsJ5mpbLfAHduZG.html)

McClintock
2008-05-02, 08:52 AM
Thanks, I'll send that Divine Trickster along to the Cleric/Rogue.... what about the Warlock?

Anything we can do to help him?

Kurald Galain
2008-05-02, 09:00 AM
S
Hu Warlock (open to most anything, but limit multiclassing to 2 total calsses)- chose sickening blast as first invocation, and ability focus: eldritch blast.
First off, replace that feat by, well, anything. The pointblank/precise shot line is a popular one, and the Complete Mage has some bloodline feats that can be fun and useful (in particular, the Fae one).
Also, a more versatile first invocation would be Baleful Utterance, Spiderwalk, or Summon Swarm. All three highly useful.

Warlocks are fun to play but rather low in the power curve. If you're looking for optimization advice, the primary thing to tell you would be "don't play a warlock". However, both the Eldritch Theurge and especially the Eldritch Disciple are good prestige classes to aim for.



Hu Cleric (wants to be a rogue) of Kord (not sure what he is open to, so I need to dazzle him) DOMAINS: Luck & Force (not sure how he got this)
Plain Cleric doesn't need much optimization, clerics are a powerful force straight out of the box. However, multiclassing this to rogue would severely gimp his character, so don't do that. Why exactly does he want to be a rogue - the skills? The charisma? The sneak attack? There are feats, spells, and/or magical items to compensate for all three of those.

Telonius
2008-05-02, 09:21 AM
If it's for the skills, direct him to the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant. One level of Rogue isn't going to kill him. Take Rogue1 (you can never get those extra first-level skill points back), Rogue2 if you want to bag Evasion, then Cloistered Cleric the rest of the way. The Rogue-ish stuff is going to stay a class skill forever, as far as max skill points are concerned. You'll have less skill points than a normal Rogue, but not bad for a Cleric.

Chronos
2008-05-02, 12:03 PM
Warlocks are fun to play but rather low in the power curve.Except at very low level, depending on the invocation chosen. A first or second level warlock with Summon Swarm will overshadow everyone except the druid.

McClintock
2008-05-02, 02:02 PM
Here is the Divine Trickster. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/5M5QGsJ5mpbLfAHduZG.html)

was this ever printed in Dragon magazine? if so which one?

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-02, 02:11 PM
If he goes with Cloistered Cleric, don't forget that he won't be able to participate in melee effectively without self buffs. Eldrich Glaive would be good for the Warlock due to it allowing full attacks once your BAB is high enough to allow them (it works as a reach touch attack, and it can be taken at level 1).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-03, 07:55 PM
For the Warlock:

First, this class is made or broken by the invocations you choose, so make sure you get good ones. Also, ditch the feat, it stinks.

In the back of the MM are a set of feats specifically designed to work with Spell-Like Abilities, which all your invocations and your blast qualify as. Maximized SLA to your Eldrich Blast is always fun. So is Quicken SLA.

Invocations you might want:

First off, Sickening/Frightful blast is crap. All you're doing is giving them a -2. I'd rather kill them, personally. Here's a list of invocations *I* like, and why:

Baleful Utterance: Shatter at will. Thousand and one things you can do with this.

Dark One's Own Luck. If you're maxing out your Charisma (and you should, since that's your caster stat), this will give a boost to one of your poor saves, variable depending on which one you need boosted best. Survivability FTW! This will make it difficult for anyone to accurately attack your 'weak save', since you can cover which one you want.
See the Unseen. Permanent See Invis and Darkvision. Have a nice day.
Devil's Sight. Able to see, even in magical darkness. Very handy against Drow. Get *EITHER* this *OR* See the Unseen, not both.
Eldrich Spear. If you want to be a 'sniper', this one lets you reach out and touch someone from outside normal fireball range.
Entropic Warding. Often overlooked, but valuable. Not only do you have a miss chance vs missiles, but you also get Pass Without Trace and lack of scent for free.

Chain Blast. Best when combo'd with Utterdark Blast for negative levels passed out to all the bad little boys and girls trying to kill you.
Fell Flight. It's flight, all day long. What's not to like?
Flee The Scene. It's Dimension Door, only it leaves a decoy!
Walk Unseen. Handy when you get it, less so as you progress.

Vitriolic Blast. One of the few Essence Invocations I like. Otherwise known as 'how to ignore SR in one easy step'.
Chilling Tentacles. Crowd Control that also does damage and doesn't cause Friendly Fire.
Devour Magic. Greater Dispel Magic. At will.
Enervating Shadow. Use with Darkness and Devil's Sight for good times.
Tenatious Plague. It's a Swarm, that ignores DR/Magic. Have fun.

Utterdark Blast. Two negative levels on a shot. It's like Enervation In A Can. Combo with Chain Blast for even more fun.
Dark Foresight. Like Foresight, only more broken due to unlimited use, so you don't need to use metamagic rod or incantatrix cheeze to keep it on all day long.
Word of Changing. Polycheeze Light. Not so broken, but it is a Save or Loose, usable an unlimited number times per day.


Feat suggestions:

all of the SLA feats are good, they're like sudden metamagic feats, usable 3/day, with no additional cost.

Precise Shot (up to Improved Precise Shot later on). So you don't shoot your buddy. Friendly Fire Isn't.

PrC Suggestions:

Don't.

No, seriously, don't do it. There's very few PrC's to get into that is worth it (the only one is Hellfire Warlock, and only if you plan on binding something to mitigate the Con damage, which goes from Optimization to Cheeze real quick), and you get nifty abilities throughout your career. In this case, basic is better.

For the Cleric:

DMM yes, but not persist. How about floating the suggestion DMM Chain Spell? WHy? Oh, I don't know, how about buffing the whole party. DMM Chain Greater Magic Weapon and DMM Chain Magic Vestments. Congratulatoins, you've just saved the party millions. Find a way to get Mind Blank into your domain list (find a PrC that lets you take Protection as a bonus domain?), then chain THAT on the whole party.

Too bad he follows Kord, you could make a real Healbot with Radiant Servant of Pelor. Ahh well, he doesn't sound like he's wanting to be a healbot anyways.

Divine Feats (from Complete Divine) let you do other things with your turning attempts, which generally rot. How about setting up a link with the tank to be able to heal him at range? How about blowing an extra turn attempt to make it a greater turn attempt? There's lots of options. Check it out.

As for PrC's:

You're wanting full or almost full spellcasting progression. In particular, don't ever loose 9th level spells, that's True Res, which can be handy if someone rolls a nat one on a save vs Disentegrate or something.

Multiclassing Rogue is about the worst thing you can do, since you can't sneak attack undead (without Gravebane, anyways), and most of the abilities don't mesh very well.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-04, 05:14 AM
Invocations you might want:
At low level, both Summon Swarm and Spiderwalk are extremely useful (and, See the Unseen isn't all that useful until higher levels). So take one or both of the former first, and swap them out later.

Note that there's more invocations in the Complete Mage; for instance, there's one that does Dispel Magic twice, for one action. Very useful until you reach high level, at which point Devour Magic is better.


PrC Suggestions:

Don't.
Warlocks can qualify for a number of wizard prestige classes; anything out of those that gives you full caster levels is a fair choice. For instance, Mindbender is a flavorful choice.



You're wanting full or almost full spellcasting progression. In particular, don't ever loose 9th level spells,
I never quite follow why people are talking about "losing level 9 spells", as that makes the assumption that the campaign will, certainly, progress to exactly level 20 and no further. Which is not a given.