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Rowan Intheback
2008-05-02, 03:43 PM
The RPG club at my school is great. We're one of the oldest and largest groups on our campus. Because of this we have a large budget that allows us to buy almost all the D&D equipment we need. This along with some of the more technically minded people setting up a system that allows club member access to an electronic library of all the 3-3.5 books makes for a variety of rich and diverse play groups.

However there is also a problem with our seemingly perfect world. The easy access to a massive library and ability to run many characters in many games has lead to a hideous epidemic of power gaming this likes of which I have never seen in my life.

This is having two very harmful effects on the club:

1. Role play is breaking down. Many people who used to be good at playing with other people now show up to a session and wait impatiently to get through all the "boring" plot to show off their monsters in combat. This is making the game stressful for DMs who are trying to tell a story that the characters are ignoring and players who feel that the DM is wasting their time.

2. New players are not able to enjoy the game. It has gotten to the point where DMs crank up the CR of encounters by around 5-10 in order to keep combat a fun experience. The problem is introducing new players to this climate. If someone who is relatively new to D&D wants to be in a game they face the potential of being horribly murdered by the DM. Not because they are bad at the game, not because their character was poorly made, because they made a decent character who is good at a reasonable power level. People who came out of our "newbie games" that we ran to introduce people to the system are immediately slapped in the face as they find themselves unable to play in any new games.

I realize 4th is coming out soon and at least for a while these problems won't be so noticeable, however, that can only last so long.

We've started introducing rules to deal with these problems:

The Out of Character Unicorn: When someone wants to speak out of character they have to put their fist on their face with their pinky pointing out. If they don't everything (except for mechanics language) they say is considered "in character." It you said "I'm bored" in front of the king you could be in huge trouble. Only once per session can the out of character unicorn heroically ride in with a magic circle against digression and take back a slip.

Game ratings: We are working on a rating system for games so if a DM wants to make a game where power gaming is going to be expected the players are aware of this going in.

Pregame character discussions: Before we allow a player into a game they mist talk with the DM about who their character is how they fit into the world and where they got their abilities. (the only problem with this is college is not a D&D fantasy camp and people don't always have time to do this.)

We've also been toying with the idea of applying a level adjustment for people we know will break the game. Although we don't want anyone to feel singled out it is also difficult to explain to someone why their Epic level six character shouldn't be doing 200 damage regularly.

If any one else has been in this situation we'd love to hear your ideas. This is a great organization I and I don't want us to lose what we've all worked so herd to create.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 03:48 PM
Of course, there is also the classic GM alternative, AKA up the power of the mobs. So, you think you're cool with your ubercharger, punk? Swooping Dragon strike, DC 56, and we're using the variant that says a 20 counts as +30 and a one as -10. And then, Wraithstrike + Avalanche of blades.

Cainen
2008-05-02, 03:50 PM
Solution #1: You see those powergamers? Slap them in the game. Keep applying hand-to-face to their characters until they finally get it. TPKs are not out of the question if they're making it hard for everyone else to enjoy the game. When they start whining, point out that this was how it felt to the new players.

Solution #2: Separate game for powergamers.

Solution #3: Separate game for roleplay-centric games.

Solution #4: Keep them away from combat as much as possible.

Also, nix the out-of-character unicorn. It can only cause trouble for forgetful players.

Cuddly
2008-05-02, 03:52 PM
Of course, there is also the classic GM alternative, AKA up the power of the mobs. So, you think you're cool with your ubercharger, punk? Swooping Dragon strike, DC 56, and we're using the variant that says a 20 counts as +30 and a one as -10. And then, Wraithstrike + Avalanche of blades.

Did you read anything beyond the thread title?

streakster
2008-05-02, 03:59 PM
Identify problem gamers who do this, and force them to be a singleclass binder or warlock. They can still be quite effective and have a lot of fun, and there will be no danger of gamebreaking power.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-02, 04:06 PM
The Out of Character Unicorn: When someone wants to speak out of character they have to put their fist on their face with their pinky pointing out. If they don't everything (except for mechanics language) they say is considered "in character." It you said "I'm bored" in front of the king you could be in huge trouble. Only once per session can the out of character unicorn heroically ride in with a magic circle against digression and take back a slip.


Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. HeeheeHEE. That's... simultaneously cute, hilarious, and awful.
Out of Character Unicorn... wow.


Ahem.
Have you thought of solving your problems by running some games that aren't D&D? D&D just plain lends itself to the kind of stuff you're having problems with, and doesn't really support/encourage/promote a heavy-roleplaying style. Run something like Spirit of the Century (http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/fate3/fate3.html) instead!

Rowan Intheback
2008-05-02, 04:18 PM
Also, nix the out-of-character unicorn. It can only cause trouble for forgetful players.

Our unicorn isn't strictly enforced the idea originally was just making the idea of not being in character feel more silly than being in character. His unicorn powers only come up when a player refuses to stay in character. Jokes and the like are fine but complaints that undermine the game aren't fun for anyone.

The only reason this is a "rule" is we have to make it official so we can enforce it with our club bylaws.

(That and we did a week long game with around 25 players and NPCs who were always considered "in game" needed a way to show they weren't in character. Because there was only one DM it was tough to determine which conversations could be "over heard" with a listen check. "Unicorning" saved us a lot of troubles with meta gaming.)

Thanks for your suggestions.

Rowan Intheback
2008-05-02, 04:40 PM
Ahem.
Have you thought of solving your problems by running some games that aren't D&D? D&D just plain lends itself to the kind of stuff you're having problems with, and doesn't really support/encourage/promote a heavy-roleplaying style. Run something like Spirit of the Century (http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/fate3/fate3.html) instead!

D&D is not our only system we have enough people that it's not uncommon to see D&D in one room, and Seventh Sea in another and Call of Cthulhu.

D&D is iconic. People usually join our club for games night where we play all sorts of games that aren't RPGs. After a while people start getting curious about RPGs and 99.9% of the time the first one they're willing to try is D&D. It's a house hold name and people feel comfortable with it. I imagine if we shifted our focus away from D&D our membership would drop off.

Thankfully we are able to hide from power gaming in most other systems.

sonofzeal
2008-05-02, 04:45 PM
I would just like to comment that my gaming group has always used a very similiar thing to the "out of character unicorn", minus the unicorn, but still putting your hand on your head to indicate OOC comments. Even forgetful players catch on quick, and I've started enforcing that when I DM with other groups.



Beyond that... some players start off liking crunchy combat and move to a more nuanced RP-based approach, and some do the reverse. There's nothing wrong with either, but do try to separate them. Here's what I use:

1) Role Playing --- Mix --- Roll Playing
2) High --- Mid --- Low Fantasy (Think high as Narnia, where animals talk and everything is exotic, mid more like classic D&D, and low being more like Robin Hood or King Arthur)
3) High --- Mid --- Low Magic
4) High --- Mid --- Low Power
5) Dark --- Average --- Light Tone and Mood (High would be "Night of the Living Dead" or Serial Killers in the Town, Light is more "rescue the child from the Ogres, who have not killed or molested it")
6) G --- PG --- R Rated descriptions and content

Give this to each player before the campaign starts, and sort players into campaigns based on style, specifically High/Low Power, Role/Roll Playing, and Dark/Light Tone. It sounds like you have a lot of High Power Roll Playing people, so find a DM who likes that and let them loose, with other groups for the rest of them. Note that this is not mine, and I don't claim to have come up with these questions, but I do find them immensly useful.

Lycar
2008-05-02, 05:09 PM
However there is also a problem with our seemingly perfect world. The easy access to a massive library and ability to run many characters in many games has lead to a hideous epidemic of power gaming this likes of which I have never seen in my life.


Well, it would seem you have reasonable funds to afford to try and give a few other systems a try. A few have been mentioned already.

But if you want a game that really helps promote roleplaying, with a very detailed background setting... -> Try this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye) for size.

Powergaming should not me much of a problem because, frankly, this sytem does not lend itself well to it. The overall power level is much lower then D&D. Heroes are heroes because they do 'the right thing(s)' even though the aren't capable of casting fireballs (well actually, there IS such a spell... but a mage can cast it about once every two-three weeks tops...) or cleave whole mountains.

Just take a look at it. If nothing else, it is a rich background to draw inspiration for your own games from.

Oh and orks there are not green. :smallwink:


Lycar

sonofzeal
2008-05-02, 08:16 PM
Oh and orks there are not green. :smallwink:
Arn't D&D Orks supposed be grey? Not that it matters. :smallwink:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 08:49 PM
Did you read anything beyond the thread title?

Yes. And indeed, showing the powergamers that two can play the game is usually a nice way to discourage them. It's like "Rock falls, everyone dies", but with a lot more style and finesse. Since talking to powergamers usually DOESN'T solve anything, the threat of having to face DPPDC is usually enough to make them cut it.

Wooter
2008-05-02, 09:06 PM
There are no Orks in D&D. There are only Orcs.

FinalJustice
2008-05-02, 10:15 PM
If abuse the 'DMs can powergame too' card, you risk creating an arms race with your players, and this will really punish the newbies. You beat them hard, they come back with more overpowerness. This becomes a game by its own, and one that will probably suck.

The DMs of your club can do as the DMs here in the playgrounds. Set power levels to their game. They are going to DM, they say 'moderate power game' and ask the players to explain their builds. If it involves too much contrivances, a known combo, level dips and whatnot, he simply says: 'Unfortunately, this is too strong for my game. Tone it down or try another concept...'. This way, your munchkins get teh uberness, but don't get to use them. Set books allowed and all that stuff. If there are newbies involved, roll 'core-onlys' and stop CoDZillas and Batmans. Either your munchkins fit, or they will be playing far less games than they want.

And remembers kids, Real Powergamers Do Roleplay. =)

Neon Knight
2008-05-02, 10:38 PM
Have you ever considered just letting them have fun?

Seriously, sometimes you just wanna kick in some doors, take some names, loot some treasure, and look magnificent while doing it. If everyone wants to loot and kill, then the game should be about looting and killing. Simple as that. If the DMs don't want to run that type of game, then they shouldn't DM for those players, because they aren't going to have an appreciative audience, and a non-appreciative disruptive audience is worse. It's like getting up in front of a bunch of hardcore heavy metal fans who hate all other genres of music and sawing away at a fiddle and expecting rave reviews.

If the majority of the players want to optimize mechanics and disregard role playing, then regardless of what you do to them that will be their interest. They will not magically become enthralled with your story just because you punished them for daring to have other interests.

You can't force people to roleplay. People play RPGs for fun, generally. If you've just spent the last couple of days finishing a paper for you philosophy class and you couldn't stand one more reference to Baruch Spinoza before you explode into a whirlwind of deranged gibbering and feverish howling, then you don't want to come to the weekly game to have fun and end up trapped in the DM's philosophy centric story. You want to smash things. If you do end up in that game, you aren't having fun. When the leisure activity, your hobby, ceases to become fun, something has gone wrong. And perhaps you've ceased to have fun playing with "power gamers".

If that's the case, then set up a game by power gamers for power gamers. And then set up a game for newbies, a game for role players, etc. Set up games that are focused around the specific interests; that way, people can join the game that appeals to them and everybody's happy. There's no conflict of interests, no cramping of anyone else's style. We live in the micro culture era; at least try to enjoy some of the benefits.

Fishy
2008-05-02, 10:40 PM
They are going to DM, they say 'moderate power game' and ask the players to explain their builds. If it involves too much contrivances, a known combo, level dips and whatnot, he simply says: 'Unfortunately, this is too strong for my game. Tone it down or try another concept...'.

Waitwaitwait. Solving problems by *talking* about them? That's not how we do things at D&D!

Reel On, Love
2008-05-02, 10:47 PM
Waitwaitwait. Solving problems by *talking* about them? That's not how we do things at D&D!

Indeed not. The solution here is simple, drawn straight from D&D:

Kill the powergamers. Take their stuff.

ladditude
2008-05-03, 12:14 AM
You should definitely have the games divided by expectations, however, it would be best to try and mix an experienced player or two into every group. Heck, that should be a requirement, like club dues, except experienced players are required to assist and tutor newbies. And then you can just ask the newbies "Hey, do you wanna just Kick Names and Take Ass or would you rather play Bardy McRollplayer?"


Indeed not. The solution here is simple, drawn straight from D&D:

Kill the powergamers. Take their stuff.

And don't kill powergamers, just ask them to stop. My last game, the DM was a renowned powergamer so all the members of our group built ridiculous characters. A glass cannon, CoDzilla and an insane Crusader trip build. Then the DM presented us with Prismatic Checkerboard flooring so that our super buffed Cleric and Crusader would have to go over 16 randomly changing blocks of prismatic doom to kill half drow, half fiends maximized to shoot 10 bolts a round. Through an entire dungeon.

Then our archer had over 1000 points of damage brought down to 50. Then we walked. If its going to be ok, let it be ok. If not, then say so and I'll play a halfling paladin.

Bassetking
2008-05-03, 12:16 AM
Indeed not. The solution here is simple, drawn straight from D&D:

Kill the powergamers. Take their stuff.

You are the wind beneath my wings, Reel.

Also: it's not good enough to just kill them and take their stuff; You'll know you've succeeded when you're discussing Aleph Null infinities and multi-variable calculus just to describe the quantities of damage you're generating.

sonofzeal
2008-05-03, 12:28 AM
Also: it's not good enough to just kill them and take their stuff; You'll know you've succeeded when you're discussing Aleph Null infinities and multi-variable calculus just to describe the quantities of damage you're generating.
Ahhh, Aleph notation. I tried to put some work towards producing Aleph 1 actions in a turn, but missed some errata and the whole thing fell appart. Do you know if anyone's succeeded in producing Aleph 1 anything in D&D?

So yeah, split groups by style, and allow people to change groups when appropriate. Sometimes I like letting loose and twinking my character to the teeth, and sometimes I like playing a Healer with a Vow of Nonviolence. This is a game, and games should be fun, and sometimes that involves ridiculous levels of awesomeness. Provide a context for that to happen while the more "serious" people can play grittier games elsewhere.

Bassetking
2008-05-03, 12:32 AM
Ahhh, Aleph notation. I tried to put some work towards producing Aleph 1 actions in a turn, but missed some errata and the whole thing fell appart. Do you know if anyone's succeeded in producing Aleph 1 anything in D&D?


No. There's been some work in regards to it based upon the upper limits of Pun Pun's "Manipulate Form", but it falls apart into set theory before it actually reaches anything concrete.

horseboy
2008-05-03, 01:33 AM
Indeed not. The solution here is simple, drawn straight from D&D:

Kill the powergamers. Take their stuff.You, sir, owe me a sketch pad for the one I just spit-taked tea all over. Brilliant!

It's like getting up in front of a bunch of hardcore heavy metal fans who hate all other genres of music and sawing away at a fiddle and expecting rave reviews.Well, I do know a guy who could play Walk on the cello, but in general, yeah I agree.

Noir-Neko
2008-05-03, 02:04 AM
Ever tried a noncombat game?

As for Power players. Bash their heads in a few times with some nastys to put the fear of God back into them. Thats what I do.

Waspinator
2008-05-03, 03:52 AM
No. There's been some work in regards to it based upon the upper limits of Pun Pun's "Manipulate Form", but it falls apart into set theory before it actually reaches anything concrete.
Would magically compressing something to the density needed for black hole formation count? The resulting singularity would have infinite density....

namo
2008-05-03, 04:57 AM
Speaking with the players should be the first solution. If they're mature enough, they'll understand the game is about eveybody's fun.
---
In a *very* simplified way, think of Aleph 1 as an infinity of infinities. A "simple" infinity - say, counting all the numbers 1,2,3... till infinity - is only Aleph 0.

I'm surprised nobody's done Aleph 1 to say the truth ; but the fact that all mechanics are discrete would definitely make things harder (though not impossible).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-03, 05:02 AM
Would magically compressing something to the density needed for black hole formation count? The resulting singularity would have infinite density....It is possible to deal infinite damage, have +infinite to all skill checks, and Pun-Pun reaches infinity at least on one thing, IIRC. However, Aleph 1 is still just a bit out of reach.

Jarlax
2008-05-03, 06:25 AM
1. Role play is breaking down. Many people who used to be good at playing with other people now show up to a session and wait impatiently to get through all the "boring" plot to show off their monsters in combat.

2. New players are not able to enjoy the game. It has gotten to the point where DMs crank up the CR of encounters by around 5-10 in order to keep combat a fun experience.


im really just repeating what others have said, but its worth saying again,

the solution to both is actually the same thing surprisingly. from your indication you have multiple players and multiple games running.

so split the groups accordingly. have at least one game that runs at low levels for beginner players to join. these will likely be more role play intensive and less about metagame power.

the other games can be whatever level the DM desires and be for players and DM who like to challenge themselves with metagame perfection.

this has been a natural progression for my groups, the newer players play one or two games and the more mature players swap between RP heavy games using the storyteller system and more tactical combat using the spycraft system.

sonofzeal
2008-05-03, 10:29 AM
Speaking with the players should be the first solution. If they're mature enough, they'll understand the game is about eveybody's fun.
---
In a *very* simplified way, think of Aleph 1 as an infinity of infinities. A "simple" infinity - say, counting all the numbers 1,2,3... till infinity - is only Aleph 0.

I'm surprised nobody's done Aleph 1 to say the truth ; but the fact that all mechanics are discrete would definitely make things harder (though not impossible).
Basically, yeah. "Aleph 0" is number of all integers. Merely "doubling" Aleph 0 or adding a set of numbers to it doesn't increase its order, because you can still devise some indexing scheme to give each element in your new expanded set an integer index. Still, it can be proven that the number of all real numbers is strictly greater, and no indexing scheme exists that could capture all the real numbers, or even all the real numbers between 0 and 1. We call the number of real numbers "Aleph 1".

As to Aleph 1 in D&D, it is indeed hampered by the lack of real numbers, but is still possible. What we need to do is construct a "power set (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_set)", a set of all subsets of integers. My approach was using a few of Tleilaxu_Ghola's niftier ideas to be able to produce infinite actions, each of which could be used to spawn an additional set of infinite actions, and each of THOSE actions could be used to deal any integer amount of damage, at which point manually constructing the power set of integers by punching the ground a whole lot becomes potentially feasible. Unfortunately, one (but not both) of the tricks for infinite actions was errata'd before I got to it, but it IS potentially possible within the D&D framework.