New to DnD

[Gael_Judicium]

Okay well, I've played DnD Adventure Game (box thingy). So I have a general idea of how DnD works. Now, one of my friend isn't allowed to play DnD (parents dont like the whole undead/demon stuff) so I attempted to "homebrew" a similar game. The hp/mana/dmg system will require time that I do not have to put it in. So one of my friends is going to help me convert their character to their equivalent levels and basically homebrew DnD (Take out anything friend's parents wouldn't like) and tell them its the same game (there have been some bigger changes than this, so they'll just smile and nod).

The DnD Adventure Game is very limited, so could someone give an overview of the classes and the rules and skills and feats and such?

[Kurald Galain]

http://d20srd.org

[Solo]

The Introduction to DnD

I will explain with a song!


Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read you begin with A-B-C
When you play you begin with P-H-B
P-H-B, P-H-B
The first three letters just happen to be
P-H-B, P-H-B

Now people, PHB, MM, and DMG
are only the tools we use to play DnD.
Once you have these rules in your head,
you can play a million different campaigns by mixing them up.

When you know the rules to play
You can play most any way!

Together now!

When you know the rules to play
You can play most any way!


P . . . HB
D . . . MG
T . . . oB
S . . . RD
L . . . oM
X . . . PH
P . . . iH CAr
SaS ECS -- Du, UA, SpC!



Now that I’ve got that out of my system, I think we should begin discussing what DnD is about at the most fundamental level.

The most basic DnD game needs three elements; the Player’s Hand Book, the Dungeon Master’s Guide, and the Monster Manual. These make up the “core” game.

To quote Kamikasei’s post on the subject, without permission, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3068866&postcount=4

This lets you know the basic idea of how the game* works

Now, I shall talk about the eleven classes outlined in the Player’s Hand Book by linking to a post by Dausuul, again without permission.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3179625&postcount=44

There is also Falrin’s guide on your “first steps” in DnD, which I have deemed worthy of being linked to.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52924


In addition to the general advice, there are specific guides and handbooks to playing these classes. The best seem to exist on the Wizards of the Coast Character Optimization Board, but our own Giant in the Playground Boards do have a few gems.

The most famous is this Guide to Wizards, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500

While a more recent one for Sorcerers, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801, has recently swept the forums by storm.

More indigenous guides will be added as people come up with them, of course.


AKA_Bait's recent guide to DMing would fall under this category.: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474

One Winged Angel’s regularly updated Handy Thread Compendium, which has not been regularly updated: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63565

Non-indigenous guides:

WotC Campaign Smashers: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=587555
Just so you know.

The 3.5 ed Weapons Special Abilities thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=642656

DnD Archive Handy DM Links thread (Lots of handy links. For DMs!): http://www.dndarchive.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=124

The Dungeonomicon (Frank/K article):
http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-vie...m=1&thread=698




*You have just lost the Game.

[dman11235]

Also, my Handy Haversack is quite handy. It has many links you'll want to keep track of for board business and D&D business, including the SRD, FAQ, and Errata.

I hate it when people are against D&D because of those reasons. It just shows a lack of trust. Also, why complain when you're destroying the abominations, not being them?

[Gael_Judicium]

His mom is just.... Thanks for all the links.

@dman - we're getting him playing DnD anyway aren't we?

[dman11235]

Heh, true. I just hate censorship with a passion.

[Bayar]

Dont forget about BoVD and BoED. FORGET about BoEF :smallbiggrin:

[Collin152]

"Okay, fine, no Dungeons and Dragons. We'll play... Luncheons and Flagons. It's a game about taverns."

[Premier]

Now, one of my friend isn't allowed to play DnD (parents dont like the whole undead/demon stuff)

There's your problem right there. This is what you need to address, rather than making contrived "workarounds".

Start with this (http://www.theescapist.com/) being shown to his mom.

[dman11235]

The BoEF was a really well written book, but might not be the best thing to bring up. See, that's the beauty of D&D, you can customize the rule set. On that note, don't bring up the BoVD in their company either. Show them the BoED though. And that link is a great thing as well. Though doesn't have any effect on those not willing to change their view point (not pointing fingers, just saying that those people exist, and refuse to investigate the other side for fear of being wrong, not exactly a wise point of view).

[Gael_Judicium]

Now I want to make a sorcerer..... Hmm... Would some people want to get on AIM, make lvl 1 characters, and someone DM for us? Nothing complex, but good enough to help me learn to play? One of those links had a link to online d20 dice also :smallbiggrin:

Would anyone be interested at starting this at 8:00 EST? I'm gaeljudicium on AIM if anyone wants to talk to me.

[Gael_Judicium]

There's your problem right there. This is what you need to address, rather than making contrived "workarounds".

Start with this (http://www.theescapist.com/) being shown to his mom.

Double post, but I am forwarding this to him immediately.

[dman11235]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/ is a nice place to PbP. But really, you don't want to do this just yet. PbP is just like normal gaming, but online. If you need some advice, you can just ask here, or PM me. I'd be glad to help.

[shadow_archmagi]

There's your problem right there. This is what you need to address, rather than making contrived "workarounds".

Start with this (http://www.theescapist.com/) being shown to his mom.

Fascinating stuff.

[Gael_Judicium]

Will do. Is there a good place online that lists all of the Sorcerer spells/feats/skills? I'm going to go ahead and make an account anyway, what's ur username that (it wants to know who referred me i think u get some bonus)

[shadow_archmagi]

Will do. Is there a good place online that lists all of the Sorcerer spells/feats/skills? I'm going to go ahead and make an account anyway, what's ur username that (it wants to know who referred me i think u get some bonus)

Sorcerers, being most amazing, can draw from ANY spell list as long as you can justify it.

That said, I complete list of all spells is found here

http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

[Gael_Judicium]

Okay, so should I make my Sorcerer and post him here to see what you think?

[Swooper]

Fascinating stuff.
Very. It's like reading Jack Chick's site, from the other point of view. I had no idea about some of these urban myths about D&D. Some of them are hilarious! :smallbiggrin:

[Dr Bwaa]

Okay, so should I make my Sorcerer and post him here to see what you think?
Sure. We'll talk you through any questions you might have, and so forth.

[shadow_archmagi]

Okay, so should I make my Sorcerer and post him here to see what you think?

Sounds good. Wouldya mind responding to my PM?

[Gael_Judicium]

CON 14 +2
CHA 15 +2
INT 13 +1
WIS 11 +0
DEX 12 +1
STR 9 -1

Human Sorcerer
30ft move

1d4 hit die - 6HP

AC 11
Touch 11
FF 10

Initiative 1d20+1
Grapple 1d20-1
BaB 1d20+0

Save (Fort/Ref/Will)
+0/+0/+2

Spell Component Pouch (5g)
Traveler's Outfit (1g)
Med Rapier (20g) 1d6-1 Crit 18-20/x2


I have a 2 feats (human) and 13 skill points (3x4+1). I want at least 5 skill points in Knowledge (arcana) for a on +2 spellcraft checks and probably the rest into Bluff, Concentration, and Spellcraft.

bit of help on these last things?

[Solo]

If only there were a sorcerer guide for this man.

Perhaps even a stupendously superior sorcerer guide, as it were.

[shadow_archmagi]

CON 14 +2

I have a 2 feats (human) and 13 skill points (3x4+1). I want at least 5 skill points in Knowledge (arcana) for a on +2 spellcraft checks and probably the rest into Bluff, Concentration, and Spellcraft.

bit of help on these last things?

Spellcraft checks are rare. Really, really rare. I don't think I've ever made one. Bluff on the other hand, is a wonderful thing. Concentration SHOULD be irrelevant, as you've done something wrong once they start punching you, but at first level it might come up, so thats a solid choice.

As for feats... give me a moment and I'll flip through the list.

[Gael_Judicium]

Chaotic Neutral and bonus languages, Dwarven and Elven

[Collin152]

If only there were a sorcerer guide for this man.

Perhaps even a stupendously superior sorcerer guide, as it were.

I think I know of such a guide!
It was written by a man... ah, what was his name?
Duo?
Yes, Duo.

[shadow_archmagi]

By all the raging weasel dung! I KNEW I was forgetting something. Sorry solo! *cowers in fear*

That said, I can't find many helpful feats core. Improved Initiative is nice, gives you a better chance to go first, which is always helpful.

[Dr Bwaa]

First: Your attack rolls are actually going to be:
1d20 + 0 (base attack) +(-1) (strength), so 1d20-1 to hit.

Second: You actually have 16 skill points. It adds like this: (2+int+1(human))x4 for first level, so (2+1+1)x4.

You're right on as far as skills go, except you probably want to prioritize as follows: concentrations & Knowledge:Arcana, then spellcraft, then bluff, then (other things that you might want). You'll want a little in UMD, probably.

Third: Your saves aren't quite right. The formula for saves is:
Base save (from class) + relevant ability modifier + misc other bonuses. So, you're actually looking at:

FORT: 0 + 2(CON) + 0 = 2
REFLEX: 0 + 1(DEX) + 0 = 1
WILL: 2 + 0(WIS) + 0 = 2

Personally, I'd grab a character sheet online somewhere (loads of places have them for free, try thetangledweb.net (http://www.thetangledweb.net/ttw/), or myth-weavers.com (http://myth-weavers.com/). They have handy places for you to plug in abilities and it does the addition of everything for you, and you can make sure you're adding everything you should be adding by looking at the empty labeled boxes :)

[shadow_archmagi]

First: Your attack rolls are actually going to be:
1d20 + 0 (base attack) +(-1) (strength), so 1d20-1 to hit.

Second: You actually have 16 skill points. It adds like this: (2+int+1(human))x4 for first level, so (2+1+1)x4.

You're right on as far as skills go, except you probably want to prioritize as follows: concentrations & Knowledge:Arcana, then spellcraft, then bluff, then (other things that you might want). You'll want a little in UMD, probably.

Third: Your saves aren't quite right. The formula for saves is:
Base save (from class) + relevant ability modifier + misc other bonuses. So, you're actually looking at:

FORT: 0 + 2(CON) + 0 = 2
REFLEX: 0 + 1(DEX) + 0 = 1
WILL: 2 + 0(WIS) + 0 = 2

Personally, I'd grab a character sheet online somewhere (loads of places have them for free, try thetangledweb.net (http://www.thetangledweb.net/ttw/), or myth-weavers.com (http://myth-weavers.com/). They have handy places for you to plug in abilities and it does the addition of everything for you, and you can make sure you're adding everything you should be adding by looking at the empty labeled boxes :)

For character building, *I* reccomend www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm.

It'll calculate total spells per day, base attack bonus, saves, and feats as needed. Works wonderfully for core.

[Dr Bwaa]

For character building, *I* reccomend www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm.

It'll calculate total spells per day, base attack bonus, saves, and feats as needed. Works wonderfully for core.

Wow. I hadn't seen this before; it's remarkably elegant and well-done! Nix my previous suggestions, for a first-timer, use this!

[shadow_archmagi]

Wow. I hadn't seen this before; it's remarkably elegant and well-done! Nix my previous suggestions, for a first-timer, use this!

Indeed. It works right up until you want to make a gestualt swordsage2 /swashbuckler2

[Gael_Judicium]

I"m up to the feats, and I still have no clue what to do with them. I have 4 ranks of Knowledge (arcana), 4 ranks Bluff, 4 ranks Concentration, 2 in Spellcrafting, and a rank in Craft and Profession. I wouldn't let me put more than 4 per skill.

Advice on the feats?

[Dr Bwaa]

Skillwise, the most skill points you can have in a class skill is (your character level + 3). The most you can have in a cross-class skill is ((your character level + 3) / 2).

[Gael_Judicium]

Ah, okay.

Level 0 Spells
Read Magic
Detect Magic
Daze
Message

Level 1 Spells
Shield
Magic Missiles

[shadow_archmagi]

Ah, okay.

Level 0 Spells
Read Magic
Detect Magic
Daze
Message

Level 1 Spells
Shield
Magic Missiles

Humm. At that rate, your entire day's worth of damaging magic is...

3d4+3. Average of 9 damage. Shouldn't be TOO bad, but thats assuming you survive three rounds. You may wish to invest in Color Spray instead of shield.

[Gael_Judicium]

I figure early on I'll be mainly support. What's the difference between the two spells?

[Solo]

I figure early on I'll be mainly support. What's the difference between the two spells?

Shield protects you.

Color Spray knocks things out so your fighter can mop them up easier.

[Gael_Judicium]

So, which do I want?

[Solo]

You want Mage Armor and Sleep as your first level spells.

Get a crossbow if you want to deal damage.

[SamTheCleric]

If only there were a stupendous guide filled with sorcerer strategems.... :smallwink:

[Triaxx]

As a sorceror player, I prefer a Scythe over a Rapier. Chances are if I do hit, it'll be on a Crit, and I'd rather do the massive damage of a Scythe.

Spell focus is sometimes useful, especially early on. If you want to support the fighter, Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Sleep are a deadly combination. The Spell Focus will later effect Dominate, and Power Word: Sleep as well.

If you enjoy summoning things, Spell Focus (Conjuration), and Augment Summoning are a good team, since it also effects Animate Undead later on.

For more damage, I suggest dumping detect magic for Acid Splash. (If you have another spell caster you can keep Detect and drop Read.)

[Gael_Judicium]

Hmm.... Wizard's can prepare any spell of their spell level per day, right?

I'm considering a wizard, because they have less spells per day (harder to manage I'm guessing), but if they need a certain spell, within 24 hours they have it. Sorcerers are more limited in spells..... Too many spells to work with.....

[Falrin]

You might show this to your mom

Dark Dungeon (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp)

Ask het if she sees you as one of those characters.

Ask her is she can find the flaws in the plot.

Ask her if people take monopoly to serious.

[Triaxx]

Hmm.... Wizard's can prepare any spell of their spell level per day, right?

I'm considering a wizard, because they have less spells per day (harder to manage I'm guessing), but if they need a certain spell, within 24 hours they have it. Sorcerers are more limited in spells..... Too many spells to work with.....

If they still have memorized spells, it takes a mere fifteen minutes, and if not it's nine hours. (Eight of rest, and one of spellbook study.)

Sorceror's don't need the variety. The wizard might prepare one Finger of Death, and need two. The Sorceror can use two Fingers of Death, or might need Mass Hold Person. The wizard might know it, but not have prepared it.

[shadow_archmagi]

If they still have memorized spells, it takes a mere fifteen minutes, and if not it's nine hours. (Eight of rest, and one of spellbook study.)

Sorceror's don't need the variety. The wizard might prepare one Finger of Death, and need two. The Sorceror can use two Fingers of Death, or might need Mass Hold Person. The wizard might know it, but not have prepared it.

Actually, a wizard gets two spells per level. A sorcerer gets either one, or two. By the end of the game, a wizard is going to have like, 7 extra spells, unless he does the whole "I buy a scroll and scribe it" thing. They don't really get THAT many more.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, a wizard gets two spells per level. A sorcerer gets either one, or two. By the end of the game, a wizard is going to have like, 7 extra spells, unless he does the whole "I buy a scroll and scribe it" thing. They don't really get THAT many more.

If that bothers you, there's a feat that doubles the spells per level (Collegiate Wizard).

One good point about wizards is that they get each spell level a character level earlier. And if you're a specialist wiz, the difference in spells-per-day is negligible.

[Cuddly]

Spellcraft checks are rare. Really, really rare. I don't think I've ever made one. Bluff on the other hand, is a wonderful thing. Concentration SHOULD be irrelevant, as you've done something wrong once they start punching you, but at first level it might come up, so thats a solid choice.

As for feats... give me a moment and I'll flip through the list.

Spellcraft checks are incredibly common. I make them constantly. If you want to be able to know what spell is being cast at you, what magic is in effect, or what that magic river does, spellcraft is what you roll.


Spell focus is sometimes useful, especially early on. If you want to support the fighter, Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Sleep are a deadly combination. The Spell Focus will later effect Dominate, and Power Word: Sleep as well.

Spell focus enhantment is good early, spell focus transmutation, imo, is better later. There are a lot of things immune to enchantment effects; just about everything will get burned by a disintegrate ray. Early on though, spell focus:enchantment is pretty killer, what with sleep and color spray.


If you enjoy summoning things, Spell Focus (Conjuration), and Augment Summoning are a good team, since it also effects Animate Undead later on.

Animate dead is a necromancy spell. Neither of those feats do anything for it.


For more damage, I suggest dumping detect magic for Acid Splash. (If you have another spell caster you can keep Detect and drop Read.)

Don't do this. Detect magic lets you know what's magic; you can cast it frequently. It's really quite useful. Read magic lets you identify unknown scrolls without a spellcraft check and cast them. Very useful for a sorceror who won't have as high an int as a wizard.


Actually, a wizard gets two spells per level. A sorcerer gets either one, or two. By the end of the game, a wizard is going to have like, 7 extra spells, unless he does the whole "I buy a scroll and scribe it" thing. They don't really get THAT many more.

If your DM EVER roles random treasure (especially if using DMG tables), chances are, you'll get a scroll. And as a wizard, you can copy that spell into your book.

[Gael_Judicium]

Here's what I had outlined for a beginner's game on Myth-Weavers.

CHA 17 +3
CON 12 +2
DEX 12 +2
INT 11 +0
WIS 9 -1
STR 6 -2

Gael Judicium - Chaotic Neutral
Human Sorcerer
4 ranks of Knowledge (arcana), 4 ranks Bluff, 2 ranks of Spellcraft, and 2 ranks of Concentration.

Spells:
Level 0
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Message
Daze

Level 1
Mage Armor
Sleep

Feats
Scribe Scroll
Extend Spell

Medium Rapier - 20g
Traveler's Outfit - (Free)
Spell Component Pouch - 5g
Familiar - 100g
Tent - 10g
Backpack - 2g
Oil x2 - 2 sp
Lamp, Common - 1 sp
Waterskin - 1g
Heavy Medium Crossbow - 50g
Crossbow Bolts x2 - 2g
Flint and Steel - 1g

And 200-181.3=18gp 7sp for me left over.

Also, can I use a scroll that I don't the the spell for as a Sorcerer?

[Cuddly]

You can use scrolls, wands, or staves of any spell that appears on the sorc/wiz list, even if your sorc doesn't know the spell.

You may want to reconsider taking extend spell at first level. You won't be able to do anything except make your read magic and detect magic last longer until level 4, when you get a second level spell. A better feat choice, if you're working out of core, is either spell focus or improved initiative. Metamagic feats won't really help you until level 4.

Get heighten spell at third level- it's too good for a sorc to pass up. Basically, it lets your level 1 spells be as potent as level nine spells, by using a level nine spell slot. Working out of core, though, the sorcerer isn't too strong a metamagic user (takes a full round action to use metamagic).

Grease is a really great spell that can work really well at higher levels when heightened. Great debuff.

[Gael_Judicium]

I was thinking Extend for Sleep and such. I'm grabbing either Grease, Color Spray, or Magic Missile next level. I was also thinking Imp Initiative instead, it seems very solid no matter what I'm doing (going first is never bad).

[Cuddly]

Well, when you extend a spell, it uses up a spell slot 1 level higher. So to cast an extended first level spell, you need a second level spell slot, which you don't get until character level 4. Also, most battles don't last very long. Sleep already has a duration in minutes. You really shouldn't need it to last longer than that.

[Solo]

Scribe scroll is less important for a Sorcerer because you can always cast the spells you know.

My first level sorcerer feats are usually along the lines of Improved Initiative, Spell Focus, or a low level metamagic feat, like Sculpt, Extend, or Heighten.

Sculpted Caltrops (a metamagicked cantrip, effectively) is fun for low level battlefield control.

[Gael_Judicium]

I forgot about Sculpt :smallmad:


Imp Initiate and Sculpt? Also, what are the limitations to Sculpt (I didn't see it on that D&D site....)?

[Triaxx]

Spell focus enhantment is good early, spell focus transmutation, imo, is better later. There are a lot of things immune to enchantment effects; just about everything will get burned by a disintegrate ray. Early on though, spell focus:enchantment is pretty killer, what with sleep and color spray.

I prefer Necromancy myself, but in a lower level campaign like he's in, you're right.


Animate dead is a necromancy spell. Neither of those feats do anything for it.

My DM disagrees with you. According to her, the necromancer is summoning the souls back for service. But that's a ruling thing, rather than a house rule.


Don't do this. Detect magic lets you know what's magic; you can cast it frequently. It's really quite useful. Read magic lets you identify unknown scrolls without a spellcraft check and cast them. Very useful for a sorceror who won't have as high an int as a wizard.

Except that he picks up another cantrip when he levels up, and he's unlikely to run into lots of magic items at level one.