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wakazashi.juice
2008-05-03, 07:24 PM
I'm starting a new campaign setting and I want to include a bird race with LA +0. What kind of drawbacks would such a race have to balance the flying? Is it even possible? Does one already exist?

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-03, 07:44 PM
You want Raptoran. I think they're out of Races of the Wild.

Talya
2008-05-03, 07:44 PM
They already exist. Raptorans, races of the wild.

wakazashi.juice
2008-05-03, 07:54 PM
Oh, I forgot about those. But what about an LA +0 race that can fly from level one, not just glide?

Lappy9000
2008-05-03, 07:59 PM
Technically you can't fly with a raptoran. Not at first level, anyway.

You don't even need Races of the Wild, just look here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1).

Personally, I absolutely loathe the fluff given about the raptorans. What I've done, is just use the crunch from the raptorans, and just apply it to whatever I want. Bam! Instant +0 flying race (Raptorans are as good as it gets for +0. And they're already overpowered)

Let's Recap:
1) Copy Raptoran Stats
2) Replace Name/Fluff
3) Find Awesome Picture to Represent Them on Google.com
4) Profit

EDIT: Found another one on D&D Wiki: Dra'Komites (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dra'Konites_(DnD_Race))

Kizara
2008-05-03, 08:01 PM
Technically you can't fly with a raptoran. Not at first level, anyway.

You don't even need Races of the Wild, just look here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1).

Personally, I absolutely loathe the fluff given about the raptorans. What I've done, is just use the crunch from the raptorans, and just apply it to whatever I want. Bam! Instant +0 flying race (Raptorans are as good as it gets for +0. And they're already overpowered)

Let's Recap:
1) Copy Raptoran Stats
2) Replace Name/Fluff
3) Find Awesome Picture to Represent Them on Google.com
4) Profit

Care to share any appropriate pics you have found?

Lappy9000
2008-05-03, 08:09 PM
Care to share any appropriate pics you have found?

Do you mean of Raptorans? 'Cause the race that I applied the Raptoran stats to was essentially a Desmodu that was actually playable (I mean +14 LA?!?! Cripes, like their spit really needs to have Wounding properties...)

arkanis
2008-05-04, 12:57 AM
Make a feat which allows a raptoran to improve their gliding ability with a fly speed with poor maneuverability.

Fizban
2008-05-06, 02:25 AM
I'd suggest the second stage of the raptoran's flight mechanics (fly for a number of rounds and glide in between). However, flight, though it should be gained far before level 20 (dragon shaman and favored soul, I'm looking at you), is not meant for anything before level 5. There's an air mephling (mephit/humanoid hybrid) that gets a 10' perfect fly speed at LA +1, and I could see granting second stage raptoran flight for the same cost. Either of these is begging for LA buyback rules though, since by the time you reach 5th your flight is outdated. If you want full flight speed with no strings attached, WoTC isn't gonna give it up for less than LA+2, and most DM's I don't think would even consider it.

I might suggest stacking on a jump spell of some sort to a glide speed. If you get enough height you could glide pretty far, but that's not going to help for combat, which is what flight is really valued for.

L'Aent'fon
2008-05-06, 03:52 PM
Oh, I forgot about those. But what about an LA +0 race that can fly from level one, not just glide?

Well, if you're looking for something to balance out the advantages of flying-from-level-one how about taking one of the low-LA races (like the Raptorians), kick their flight up from Glide (ex) to Flight (ex) and tack on a few additional penalties while stripping 'em of any bonuses that don't seem to fit your campaign setting or general ideas about this flying race you want to include!

If you go that route, one thing to consider while thinking up penalties would be that the majority of a flyer's "strength" tends to be focused in their flight-muscles. And once you factor in some of the other things that make a decent (medium) sized creature able to go airborn (things like hollow bones and greatly reduced body-weight) then you're talking about stripping out a lot of the supporting musculature that allows other races to carry and use stuff. Even a well muscled flyer (one with a high STR and CON) isn't going to be able to carry all that much.

How to reflect this? One way would be to forbid them access to the same size-and-weight category of equipment that other creatures of their size category normally enjoy. And to limit what they can carry in general to a smaller amount than normal. And add on the whole "must be specially crafted" extra expense thing for good measure.

... basically, slap a "Medium" creature with all the (non-movement-related) penalties of a "Small" (non-humanoid-build) creature while granting them none of the bonuses of a "Small" creature. On its own, this penalty is probably not enough to balance out getting a straight up "flight" ability from the get go! Flight is nice. But I think it would be a step in the right direction. Couple this with a STR and/or CON penalty and it seems like a decent model of the "it flys without magic but to be able to fly it's unusually weak and/or fragile" style of flying people-critter.

Oh, and if you're thinking that flying around tires the critter out more than walking around does you or I, then you might look at adding on Endurance checks to remain airborn for long periods of time (perhaps hourly?) With similar penalties, on failure, to having been "forced marching" along.

Anyway, hope this helps! (Providing ideas if nothing else!)

BizzaroStormy
2008-05-06, 04:09 PM
I dont know about a bird race but you could try the Saest from the Zymph Campaign Setting. They're basicall human with angel wings.

wakazashi.juice
2008-05-06, 08:28 PM
Alright, how about this:

+2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution

Medium: As a medium creature, Race X has no bonuses or penalties due to size.

Race X base land speed is 20 ft. This is reduced to 15 feet while wearing medium or heavy armor.

Flight: Race X can fly at a speed of 40 ft. (Average Maneuverability) for a number of rounds equal to their constitution score before they must rest for 1 minute [perhaps the same number of rounds?]. They lose this ability when carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor.

Water Anathema: Race X is afraid of large bodies of water. Wide rivers, lakes and oceans are anathema to Race X. If fully immersed in water, Race X must spend 10 minutes drying out their wings before flying again. Likewise, Race X takes a -5 penalty on swim checks in water deeper than their head.

+4 bonus on Balance and Jump checks: Race X can use their wings to aid them with balancing an jumping.

Low Light Vision: Race X can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

I don't know if the flight is overbalanced-too many drawbacks, but as I've gathered, flight is very powerful.

Also, thanks L'Aent'fon. Your post really helped.

L'Aent'fon
2008-05-07, 10:09 AM
Alright, how about this:

Race X base land speed is 20 ft. This is reduced to 15 feet while wearing medium or heavy armor.

Flight: Race X can fly at a speed of 40 ft. (Average Maneuverability) for a number of rounds equal to their constitution score before they must rest for 1 minute [perhaps the same number of rounds?]. They lose this ability when carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor.


Well, while the "only fly for a number of round equal to their Constitution score" does provide a limit for the tactical advantages of flight, this, coupled with a base land speed of 20 ft for a medium creature (most other medium creatures move at 30 ft per melee round) means that Species X overland movement rates are below the average for a medium sized race.

And it's not that much of a combat limiter either! Really, how long do most combats last anyway? Having flight you can use for 8-10 melees per encounter will almost always translate to having flight you can use whenever you want to when in combat. What the above restriction actually accomplishes is to vastly restrict long-range movement (local and overland movement rates.)

An "average" member of species X will have an 8 Con (10 Con -2 Racial Modifier) ... meaning, with the above rules, they can fly for 48 seconds (less than one minute) before they have to rest. This wouldn't allow the species to rely on flight to move from place to place when not in combat. To travel from town to town Species X would usually need to walk, not fly. And they walk quite slowly! Generally speaking, I see this as a problem because I tend to think of flying races as having greater mobility (both tatical and strategic) than land-bound races.

If you also consider this a problem, some possible fixes might include:

1) Remove the "can only fly for Con rounds" restriction. Although this does make the flight ability considerably more powerful (both tacticaly and strategically) than what you have listed here.

2) Increase the length of flight time from "rounds per point of Con" to something larger ... "minutes per point of Con" doesn't seem to really address the strategic (non-combat) move difficulty while extending the tactical (combat) move advantage for the species to even more unlimited use -- as I can't think of any combat I've ever heard of that has lasted 8 minutes (80 melees)! So that would be ... well ... the worst of both worlds. Maybe 10 minutes per point of Con? It's just as powerful tactically, but allows for something like overland flying movement as well.

3) Add Glide (ex) that has no "can only glide for X lengths of time" restriction in addition to using Fly (ex) as you have it currently -- Species X can use fly to get aloft and to maneuver (when required) and for longer distances they can glide with short spurts of flying.

Me? I'd probably go with option 1 ...


Flight (ex): Race X can fly at a speed of 40 ft (average maneuverability). Like other flyers, they lose this ability when burdened with a medium or heavy load, or while wearing medium or heavy armor.

... and if I went with option 2 I'd tack on ...


Race X can use their flight ability to cover large distances, although prolonged flight is a strenuous endeavor. After one hour of flight, and every hour thereafter, a member of Species X must make a Constitution check (DR 10 +2 per extra hour aloft). If this check fails they sustain 1d6 points of non-lethal damage. Characters sustaining non-lethal damage become fatigued. Eliminating the non-lethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It is possible to fly into unconsciousness by pushing yourself too hard -- creatures falling unconscious while flying proceed to fall (see falling damage).

Let me note that your average 30 ft per melee creature can cover 24 miles per day (8 hour walk) -- and more with a forced march. The one-hour-limited-flyer, as presented above, can only cover 16 miles per day (4 hours of flight interspersed with 4 hours of rest) -- and more with the flying equivalent of a "forced march."

The land-based creature is subject to terrain penalties, the flyer isn't. So, on open plains, the critter that walks can make better time than the above one-hour-limited-flyer, but in difficult terrain (x2 penalty), when confronted with obstacles (x2 penalty), or both (x4 penalty!), or when confronted with "impassible" terrain (cannot cross) the flyer can outdistance the walker.

The un-limited 40 ft per round flyer (who can fly for 8 hours at a stretch before hitting "forced march" rules) can cover 32 miles per day, ignoring terrain and virtually all obstacles (even most "impassible" terrain). Those guys can get around. Although on flat terrain, the guy on the horse (50 ft or 60 ft movement) can still outdistance them.

If you still think this is still too powerful an ability (it effectively has no limits for use in combat which makes it quite powerful) I'd balance it with an additional penalty or penalties. Maybe -2 Str for a total of (+2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con)? Or possibly by stripping out one of their other bonuses, like maybe low-light vision. Really, does every single race have to see better than humans?

I do like the "can't fly if wings are wet" rule for feathered flyers, though! Neat idea!

Also, any particular reason Species X's land-based movement is 20 ft rather than 30 ft per round? Personally, I'd me more inclined to leave them at 30 ft on the ground and hit 'em with the other penalties of a small sized creature (lower carrying capacity + smaller sized weapons) to reflect a body built primarily for flight. Unless these guys have really short legs!

At any rate, as originally presented Species X seems workable to me. I suppose playtesting might help determine if additional balancing factors need to be brought into play.

Hope the commentary helps! And sorry for the length!

Talya
2008-05-07, 10:35 AM
I do like the "can't fly if wings are wet" rule for feathered flyers, though! Neat idea!


Bah, the fastest type of bird in level flight spends a lot of time swimming--even UNDER the water-- when they're not arguing with anthropomorphic rabbits about which of them the hunter with a speech impediment is going to shoot first, anyway.

bosssmiley
2008-05-07, 12:11 PM
The Avoral racial class from "Planar Handbook" has flight as a class feature at level 1 (30'/rnd, good manoeuvrability IIRC) and improves from there.

L'Aent'fon
2008-05-07, 12:47 PM
Bah, the fastest type of bird in level flight spends a lot of time swimming--even UNDER the water-- when they're not arguing with anthropomorphic rabbits about which of them the hunter with a speech impediment is going to shoot first, anyway.

Indeed, thothe wathcally wabbith! :smallamused:

But still, depending on the type of avian-critter-person-thing a GM is wanting to design, the "can't fly when wet" restriction could be fun to toss on there. Not for Entemensch of course! :smallwink: Or for most avians for that matter.

wakazashi.juice
2008-05-07, 03:51 PM
I realize the -2 to Con really hinders the length of time that they can fly. Perhaps it should be -2 to strength instead. I imagine, with their relatively large size for a flying creature, Race X couldn't stay aloft very long, and would need strong muscles to pull it off (hence the lack of a penalty to strength) and hollow bones (the penalty to con). Maybe they should fly for a number of rounds equal to their strength score instead. Too bad DnD isn't as realistic as I'd like...

I see that their overland movement is problematic, but they can always ride a horse or something-they are no worse than halflings or dwarves (except that they can fly for short amounts of time). Besides, with their place in my campaign world, I don't see their need to travel much.

I don't know about giving them glide though, it almost gives them the same abilities of full flight.