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quiet1mi
2008-05-03, 07:33 PM
looking through the book of exalted deeds and saw the different Vows and realized that they do not have an alignment restriction on them on a role playing restriction...

so my question is can my BBEG convince others to fight each other (through diplomacy) and yet keep his Vow of Peace or can he only create alliances that would hinder the party?

SurlySeraph
2008-05-03, 07:34 PM
Huh...

Well, technically you're only supposed to have Exalted vows if you're really, really, really good. But since that works by RAW, it is way too awesome an idea not to use.

ZeroNumerous
2008-05-03, 07:35 PM
Diplomacy, by RAW, only works on NPCs.

Riffington
2008-05-03, 07:38 PM
There is a game called In Nomine... amazing game of angels and demons.

Malphas is the Demon Prince of Factions, and he is responsible for sowing discord and creating fights. His servants are forbidden to directly use violence, since he considers anything so clumsy to be "the mark of a failure".

quiet1mi
2008-05-03, 07:49 PM
so he can "convince" the Town guard to "deal" with the Pcs and not hear the details with out losing his vow of peace?

GrassyGnoll
2008-05-03, 07:51 PM
If you feel it fits go ahead.

Talya
2008-05-03, 07:56 PM
He'd have a heck of a time keeping the feat working.


A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1).

quiet1mi
2008-05-03, 08:11 PM
Is it evil if he can justify it?
(feel free to ignore the above question if you feel that the answer would create an alignment and shade of Grey thread)

Duality incorporate would like to present...

Shades of Grey

Chaotic Law system
If i randomly make an example of the people breaking laws, I can deter people from breaking Laws just from the fear of being randomly punished!


the Good of Evil acts
by tempting the bandits into slaughter specific godless villages I can get the townspeople to become more obedient and better worshipers of Pelor...

The_Snark
2008-05-03, 08:15 PM
Exalted feats actually do require you to be good; it's under the description of exalted feats as a whole. Sorry.

When I saw the title of this, though, I thought you'd be talking about Vow of Obedience. That one could very easily get the exalted tag removed, and it'd still make sense.

Tengu
2008-05-03, 08:17 PM
the Good of Evil acts
by tempting the bandits into slaughter specific godless villages I can get the townspeople to become more obedient and better worshipers of Pelor...

Performing evil deeds with good side-effects makes you land firmly into the Well Intentioned Extremist territory. Evil.

quiet1mi
2008-05-03, 08:22 PM
other than having the party be evil and the BBGG (i know oxymoron) have this...is there any other way for an antagonist to the party use this...

Talya
2008-05-03, 08:25 PM
other than having the party be evil and the BBGG (i know oxymoron) have this...is there any other way for an antagonist to the party use this...

Lawful Stupid BBGG's can oppose a party of more moderate goods.

quiet1mi
2008-05-03, 08:36 PM
alright! One lawful stupid Diplomiser/cleric coming right up to destroy my friends....

Smiley_
2008-05-03, 08:39 PM
I believe that the question being addressed here is, can one use the Vow of Peace and convince others to do his fighting for him? No. That defeats the purpose of the vow of peace and vow of nonviolence. By RAW, one could argue otherwise, but the purpose of the Vow of Peace is that you do not hurt anything and you do not allow anything to be wrongfully hurt, even indirectly. If you do convince others to fight each other or use compulsion spells to do so, you are indirectly hurting things willfully, and lose the bonuses.

It does give you some really nice bonuses, like increase in save DCs, occasional immunity to weapons, and shame-on-you powers, but you still have to pay the price for it.

This feat and the Vow of Nonviolence along with subdual spell and subdual strike go hand in hand with a seemingly silly but actually not that bad PrC class, the apostle of peace, and they do not make good BBEGs.

Mewtarthio
2008-05-03, 09:45 PM
You could also change the system a little. Have Exalted feats doled out, not by actually being Exalted, but by devotedly serving a Good god. Still, I can't see how you could perform violence, even by proxy, and still keep the Vow of Peace.

Unless, of course, the BBEG is actually a noble and upright saint who is unknowingly possessed by an evil entity. The evil entity could then attempt to use the man's influence to control others, though the victim might become suspicious eventually.



Chaotic Law system
If i randomly make an example of the people breaking laws, I can deter people from breaking Laws just from the fear of being randomly punished!

You mean like random tax audits? Stationing traffic officers at random points in the road? Giving out pop quizzes on random days to make sure students do their reading? There's also this system called the Panopticon which seeks to control people utterly by doing exactly this: Everyone is observed randomly, so anyone can be observed at any time, and by making random examples of the disobedient, you ensure that everyone obeys you all the time.



the Good of Evil acts
by tempting the bandits into slaughter specific godless villages I can get the townspeople to become more obedient and better worshipers of Pelor...

I'm not sure Pelor wants people to worship him out of fear.

quiet1mi
2008-05-03, 09:50 PM
hmmm... alright my obsession of an evil villain (or a villain dressed in sheep's clothing) with the Vows of ______ is over.....

another question has occurred though....

what can a party member due to help the party and keep his vow of non-violence and vow of peace? [besides being the face of the group]

also what would party members have to do to not be penalized or breaking up the party due to morality reasons?

tyckspoon
2008-05-03, 10:55 PM
also what would party members have to do to not be penalized or breaking up the party due to morality reasons?

It's been a long time since I read the vows, so I don't remember the specific strictures, but the basic method is simple enough: Never initiate a fight and always use non-lethal methods of combat. The party can defend themselves, but they should not be the first to attack (I would suggest using one of the various Diplomacy fixes; there's going to be a lot of talking, and Diplomacy as written will completely trivialize the challenge of being non-violent in D&D.) Acquiring Merciful weapons for all of the physical combatants should be a priority. Spellcasters can take the Nonlethal Substitution feat or just use any of the many non-damaging control and takedown spells they already have.

sonofzeal
2008-05-03, 11:13 PM
what can a party member due to help the party and keep his vow of non-violence and vow of peace? [besides being the face of the group]

also what would party members have to do to not be penalized or breaking up the party due to morality reasons?
As someone playing just such a character......

1) Healbot
2) Battlefield control magic
3) Nonlethal damage
4) Trip/grapple/Stand.Still
5) Face (as you say)
6) Knowledge/Divination
7) Skillmonkey
8) Most "Save Or Suck" spells

...Pretty much everything except DPS, really, and Save-or-Die. As to other party members, they can't kill helpless/surrendered enemies, but that's usually not a problem as enemies in that position are essentially out of the fight anyway. The rest is purely RP.

quiet1mi
2008-05-04, 11:05 AM
How does a weapon take a fortitude save because the Vow of Peace states that any weapon that hits you must make a fortitude save of ____ or shatter and leave no harm done.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-04, 11:32 AM
From the SRD:


Saving Throws
Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

InaVegt
2008-05-04, 12:10 PM
Performing evil deeds with good side-effects makes you land firmly into the Well Intentioned Extremist territory. Evil.

Examplars of Evil, despite the name, begs to differ.