Elan and Nale

[Scatman]

Pondering 4E with the constant thread spam replied to with more spam, I realised in 4th Edition Elan would be, basically, a Nale copy. So this raises a question, for me at least. Who's more powerful: Elan or Nale?

By the way, I will completely ignore the spam some people probally intend to fill this thread up with.

(For those who do not know, Nale is a Fighter/Sorcerer/Rogue, apparantly of at least 6 levels in sorcerer, enough sneak attack/damage to kill a low-to-mid level NPC from assumably full HP in one blow, basically a bard set up in a different fashion.)

[DementedFellow]

I would have to go with Nale. The bard's spell list isn't as comprehensive as a sorcerer's. Bards do have the ability to be totally badass, but Elan is probably going to be the comedic one and will be pigeonholed.

But you have to think about one thing. Elan has plot armor.

thanks to the oracle's telling Elan things will end well for him.

[Beholder1995]

Hey, hey, hey. If you want to denounce Organ Harvesting, there's a thread for that. But we can be civil. But this is actually an amazingly original OOTS-related thread. Actually, their abilities would probably be switched. Nale would remain a semi-bard, and Elan would probably become some kind of spellcaster with that level in Dashing Swordsman. But I couldn't tell you who'd win in a fight.

[Abjurer]

Sure, we know that Elan isn't going to die. But that doesn't mean Nale isn't more powerful than him.

[Trazoi]

Elan's probably gaining more experience than Nale. Elan's group seems to be doing more adventuring, while Nale's is really just plotting ways of getting back at Elan.

Nale however seems to have more personal drive than Elan, so he's using his abilities more effectively.

[Scatman]

I would have to go with Nale. The bard's spell list isn't as comprehensive as a sorcerer's. Bards do have the ability to be totally badass, but Elan is probably going to be the comedic one and will be pigeonholed.

But you have to think about one thing. Elan has plot armor.

thanks to the oracle's telling Elan things will end well for him.

Well, let's say they both have plot armor down and are of equal level. Elan is still assumed to be Bard 12+/Dashing Swordsman(?).

Nale is Fighter(2+), Rogue (3+) and Sorcerer (6+). This is based on information seen in the comic.

Nale uses a longsword a chainshirt. His DEX is supposedly above average.

Elan uses a rapier and clothing. Supposedly decent DEX, average strength. Anyone is free to correct me on any of this.

[Corrupted One]

Well in a fight, there is alot more to consider besides sheer power and skill. Nale has a knack for making things needlessly complicated and an annoying tendency to trip over his own ego. In the OoTS world, Elan would proubaly win because, well, he's Elan. Although in real life the odds would proubaly be less certain.

[Silver2195]

Incidentally, 4E Nale would probably be a warlord. Warlords use physical attacks like fighters, heal and buff like clerics, and use charisma like sorcerers, which fits Nale's 3 classes. He even called his father a warlord.

[Chronos]

Mechanically, Nale's build is in every way inferior to Elan's, as demonstrated by Elan's clear superiority every time they've fought. Sure, Nale could choose spells which are unavailable to bards, but he hasn't, and Elan almost certainly has higher level spells than Nale. He also certainly has a better attack bonus, and probably has more skill points and hit points than Nale. Nale could beat Elan in any one of these categories, by tweaking the number of levels he has in each class, but that would just dump him even further behind Elan in all the other categories.

[Kish]

Pondering 4E with the constant thread spam replied to with more spam, I realised in 4th Edition Elan would be, basically, a Nale copy.
[...]
(For those who do not know, Nale is a Fighter/Sorcerer/Rogue [...] basically a bard set up in a different fashion.)
This puzzles me. Nale is basically an Elan copy now. What would be different if they were in 4ed--just that Elan's class would no longer be core? The main effect would be to ruin the joke where Nale makes a ridiculously complicated multiclass faux-bard because "bards are underpowered."

[Uthug]

Don't forget the fact that Elan is taking a prestige class, which almost nobody else in OoTS has (as far as I know). And in the Giant seems to have portrayed prestige classes as cheesy and so-forth. Elan also seems to have gotten a massive power boost from his levels in Dashing Swordsman, and he also seems to have gotten smarter, so I feel that plot-wise and character class wise, Elan has some major advantages over Nale.

[FujinAkari]

Don't forget the fact that Elan is taking a prestige class, which almost nobody else in OoTS has (as far as I know).

To date, the only prestiege classes we've seen are:

Elan (Dashing Swordsman)
Tsukiko (Mystic Theurge)
Human Assassin from the Inn Sequence (Shadowdancer)
and there have been some references to the Blackguard, though none actually exist (Miko said no :P)

[Uthug]

Thanks for that. Would that help to reiterate my point about how powerful non-core material is in the OoTS setting? I sort of remember Tsukiko using some electricity bolt on Haley.

[The Extinguisher]

Mystic Theurge is actually core, but carry on.

Also, Nale has yet to beat Elan in anything that isn't sneak attacks.
Nale is pretty much bard, minus the music and plus the multiclassing penalties.

Sure, he'll probably have a prestige class to keep up with the whole evil opposites thing, but he still sucks.

Nale seems a likely candidate for Blackguard, if you ask me.

[Laurentio]

Elan's probably gaining more experience than Nale. Elan's group seems to be doing more adventuring, while Nale's is really just plotting ways of getting back at Elan.
Nale is a NPC, so doesn't "take experience". NPC just get "plot advancement", as needed to keep the pace with the player group (yes, even when the group is not actually played).
I'd like to see a strip where Nale get a level as a direct consequence of Elan's taking a level.

:elan: - Ping - Cheesy!

:nale: - Ping - What the... oh, Elan shot first.

Laurentio (http://laurentio.myminicity.com/tra/) < Click here. Today we work on green

[Kato]

Sooo.... sure Nale is an NPC? I always thought him to be an evil PC or so...

Anyway, I'm not sure. I think Elan's Dashing Swordsman might be useful, but Nale is - you gotta admit - more intelligent. And knowing is half the battle, isn't it? So, I think he'd outsmart Elan somehow.

[Greg]

Sure, Nale could choose spells which are unavailable to bards, but he hasn't, and Elan almost certainly has higher level spells than Nale. He also certainly has a better attack bonus, and probably has more skill points and hit points than Nale.
Agree on spells, but the rest is conjecture. It depends on his level balance, but the 6+ levels in sorc would seem to bear you out regarding attack rolls, as does Elan adding his CHA bonus (at least +4) to his attack rolls. In terms of HP, Nale has a mix of classes providing d10/d6/d4 HP per level, elan gets d6 for bard levels + whatever he gets from dashing swordsman (I'm guessing d8/d10 - swashbuckler gets d10), so it depends on what Nale's levels are. Skills depend on what Nale's class balance is. I would suspect that he has 3+ levels in fighter and rogue, giving him no XP penalty (he would have thought this through). Bear in mind that Nale has a higher INT modifier than Elan, and so gets more skills that way.

[The Extinguisher]

Anyway, I'm not sure. I think Elan's Dashing Swordsman might be useful, but Nale is - you gotta admit - more intelligent. And knowing is half the battle, isn't it? So, I think he'd outsmart Elan somehow.

No he isn't. He has the same INT, WIS and CHA as Elan. The only difference is that Nale uses his mental stats for more villainy and convoluted means, while Elan's are simple and childish.

[Quorothorn]

Sooo.... sure Nale is an NPC? I always thought him to be an evil PC or so...

Anyway, I'm not sure. I think Elan's Dashing Swordsman might be useful, but Nale is - you gotta admit - more intelligent. And knowing is half the battle, isn't it? So, I think he'd outsmart Elan somehow.

Actually, Nale really isn't that smart: he just THINKS (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake) he's smart.

Also, both times Elan and Nale fought straight-up, Elan was at least a match for Nale.

[Kurald Galain]

No he isn't. He has the same INT, WIS and CHA as Elan. The only difference is that Nale uses his mental stats for more villainy and convoluted means, while Elan's are simple and childish.

That is not at all a given. While Nale obviously isn't the evil genius he proclaims himself to be, he does appear to be smarter than Elan. Remember how he used to beat Elan into stupidity when the two were babies?

Neither has a penchant for much wisdom, and Elan's charisma appears to be higher (as implied by Julia).

[Quorothorn]

That is not at all a given. While Nale obviously isn't the evil genius he proclaims himself to be, he does appear to be smarter than Elan. Remember how he used to beat Elan into stupidity when the two were babies?

Neither has a penchant for much wisdom, and Elan's charisma appears to be higher (as implied by Julia).

Maybe the beard is a -2 circumstance penalty to Charisma for purposes of physical attractiveness? I dunno.

[EvilElitest]

Mechanically, Nale's build is in every way inferior to Elan's, as demonstrated by Elan's clear superiority every time they've fought. Sure, Nale could choose spells which are unavailable to bards, but he hasn't, and Elan almost certainly has higher level spells than Nale. He also certainly has a better attack bonus, and probably has more skill points and hit points than Nale. Nale could beat Elan in any one of these categories, by tweaking the number of levels he has in each class, but that would just dump him even further behind Elan in all the other categories.

Well in the last time they fought, Nale had only a dagger and normal shirt, so it wasn't totally fair
from
EE

[Quorothorn]

Well in the last time they fought, Nale had only a dagger and normal shirt, so it wasn't totally fair
from
EE

Yes, but Elan's victory was so remarkably one-sided that I'm not certain that a slightly better damage range and AC for Nale would have made a difference. (Elan only had normal clothing too, remember, and Nale's dagger, as his and Sabine's official sacrificial weapon, was almost certainly magical, so Elan's +3 keen weapon wasn't an enormous advantage.)

[Trizap]

I think Elan is better than Nale.

He just is.

In fact I think EVERYONE is better than Nale.

They just are.

[EvilElitest]

Yes, but Elan's victory was so remarkably one-sided that I'm not certain that a slightly better damage range and AC for Nale would have made a difference. (Elan only had normal clothing too, remember, and Nale's dagger, as his and Sabine's official sacrificial weapon, was almost certainly magical, so Elan's +3 keen weapon wasn't an enormous advantage.)

However Rapiers are better than swords on a normal basis, and a possible magical dagger is still nothing compared to a magical sword. More to the point, Elan is using his best weapon, while Nale is using a weapon that isn't his best, and being surprised attacked and unarmored while missing a few spell

Nale also did pretty well actually, when he resorted to spells
from
EE

[Scatman]

Forgetting something- Nale has access to more offensive spells. Being clever, he could have 10d6 spells (Fireball, etc) shot at Elan from a distance to weaken him, and come kill him.

But he'd overcomplicate things to the point where it's "Put metal over him and let the fireball melt it and have it burn his skull".

[Sir_Dr_D]

4th edition Elan, would not likely be a wizard/rogue. For the purposes of the comic he would still be a bard with no rules jokes about him.

In 3rd edition terms, Nales multiclassing would have been very ineffective. If you played a character with his build, you could not be that competivel. In 4th edition his class combination will be much more powerfull. But since OOTs is more character driven , then D&D rule driven, Nale has been shown to be much more powerfull then his class combination should have allowed. There is no way Nale should have been able to come close to defeating Elan.

A 4E edtion conversion would therfore not affect the balance between the 2, it would just make the fact that they are so evenly matched as more justified.

In story terms , the next they meet I think Nale will have developed some technique to allow him to overpower Elan.

[Bavarian itP]

However Rapiers are better than swords on a normal basis, and a possible magical dagger is still nothing compared to a magical sword. More to the point, Elan is using his best weapon, while Nale is using a weapon that isn't his best, and being surprised attacked and unarmored while missing a few spell

Nale also did pretty well actually, when he resorted to spells
from
EE

Nale admits that he should have seen this coming, so it's entirely his fault that he brought a dagger to a swordfight.

[Chronos]

OK, to look at this in more detail:

I'll compare Nale and Elan at the point right before Elan got his prestige class, since we know so little about what Dashing Swordsman gives, and it seems unfair to consider Elan's PrC, but not whatever PrC Nale will inevitably take. That puts them both at level 12. I'll also assume that Nale's Charisma is as high as Elan's, and that Elan's Int is as high as Nale's (this assumption actually favors Nale, since Charisma is more important than Int for both of them). I'll further assume that Nale has 6 levels of sorcerer and no classes other than sorc, fighter, and rogue, and that Elan has no classes other than bard.

For magical power, Elan knows 6 cantrips, 4 spells each of first, second, and third level, and 3 fourth-level spells. Nale knows 7 cantrips, 4 first, 2 second, and 1 third level spell. The advantage here is clearly Elan's. Each day, Elan can cast 3 cantrips, 4 spells each of levels one through three, and 3 spells of level four. Nale can cast 6 cantrips, 7 first level spells, 6 second level, and 4 third level. This gives Nale a total of 23 spells per day, compared to Elan's 18, but that still favors Elan, since his spells are more powerful. Further, Elan also has his bardic music, and Nale doesn't have anything comparable to that. Nale could conceivably be more powerful magically, if he has more than 6 sorcerer levels, but that hurts him in every other category, since sorcerers suck for skills, combat, HP, and just about everything else except magic.

For combat ability, Elan loses 3 points of BAB, from 12 bard levels, for a total of 9. Nale loses at least three points of BAB from his sorc levels, and at least one more from his rogue levels, giving him a BAB of at most 8.

For skills, Elan has a total of 90 skill points, before Int mod (6 each from his bard levels, quadruple at first level). Assuming that Nale has only one fighter level, and that his first level was in rogue, Nale has at most 78 skill points (if his first level was in fighter or sorcerer, he has at most 60, or probably less if he has more than one fighter level). Elan also has more freedom in how he spends his skill points, since bards have such a broad list of class skills. This is a clear advantage for Elan.

For HP, Elan has 6+11d6 points, for an average of 44.5, before Con mod. Nale matches this only if he has at least three fighter levels (improbable, since someone had to have told Thog that "fighter three is stupid level"). This is close, but it's probably a slight advantage for Elan.

For saving throws, Elan has Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +8, before ability score mods. Nale's Fort is probably (and at most) +6, if he has at least two fighter levels, his Ref is probably (and at most) +6, if he has at least two rogue levels, and his Will is at most (and probably less than) +7, if he has exactly three each fighter and rogue levels. Again, Elan has the advantage here.

So to sum up, Elan is probably superior in most ways with respect to magic, certainly superior in skills and combat ability, probably slightly better in HP, and certainly better in two of the three saving throws.

[Quorothorn]

However Rapiers are better than swords on a normal basis, and a possible magical dagger is still nothing compared to a magical sword. More to the point, Elan is using his best weapon, while Nale is using a weapon that isn't his best, and being surprised attacked and unarmored while missing a few spell

Nale also did pretty well actually, when he resorted to spells
from
EE

Elan didn't do anything in the surprise round, so he didn't have that much of an advantage (neither was fully outfitted; again, Elan was unarmoured as well). As for weapons, Elan was whuppin' Nale's ass with unarmed strikes at one point. The only spell Nale was missing was one (Charm Person): considering the length of combat, that lone spell slot had absolutely no effect whatsoever. The simple fact is that Elan beat Nale straight-up and hands-down. Even back in the Dungeon of Dorukan, Nale didn't seem more than Elan's equal one-on-one ("Thog, this isn't working!"), and with the Dashing Swordsman abilities, Elan has clearly surpassed his brother. We'll see if the balance shifts back to more-or-less equal if Nale takes a fancy-schmancy PrC of his own, but as it stands now...

Heck, at the time that V and Durkon arrived, Elan was neutralizing Nale and Thog at the same time; that might be the most impressive combat feat by an individual OotS-er since Belkar KO'd Miko with a lead sheet or V two-shot a dragon.

[Tingel]

No he isn't. He has the same INT, WIS and CHA as Elan. The only difference is that Nale uses his mental stats for more villainy and convoluted means, while Elan's are simple and childish.
I didn't know that. Where did you find this information?

[Sir_Dr_D]

Not to mention Chronos that Elan would be considered a 12th level spell caster for the the spells that he casts, and Nale would be at most considered 6th. making his spells much less effective.

In terms of the story, none of this matters though. The story considered them equals up until the point Elan got his Dashing Swordsman class.

[The Extinguisher]

I didn't know that. Where did you find this information?

General observation. They are close enough to the same for any discussion, as we don't know the exact stats. But Nale is just as stupid as Elan. He's also very charismatic. The only thing I would argue as being a large difference is wisdom, but even then the only difference shown in the comic for that is how they apply the wisdom. Which is more to do with thier alignment.

My theory isn't based on evidence of sameness, but moreso evidence of not being different.