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xanaphia
2008-05-04, 12:15 AM
What do you think is the best gestalt combination? I ask just out of curiosity.

I think that Barbarian/Druid would be okay, as would Paladin/Sorcerer. Ranger/Druid is interesting too.

Serenity
2008-05-04, 12:23 AM
I got a lot of use out of a VoP Swordsage/Druid. Would've gotten more if Eberron materials were allowed. And I imagine a Warblade/Psion would be pretty powerful for the Intelligence synergy.

Kizara
2008-05-04, 12:45 AM
Monk 1/druid 19//cleric 20 is pretty disgusting.

My current character is:

Side 1: Rogue 2/paladin of tyranny 3/hex blade 4/marshal 1/fighter 2/hexblade 1/heirophant 5/blackguard 2

Side 2: Cleric 10/contemplative 2/cleric 8

That's the build anyways, although she's only halfway through it currently (lvl 11).

Demons_eye
2008-05-04, 12:50 AM
Our dm says as long as we meet the Preq. for PcR's we can go stright into them.


Sword Sage 20// Kensai 10/seting sun ninja 10

Of corse unarmed.

namo
2008-05-04, 01:44 AM
There was a thread some time ago about this : search for "Favorite gestalt combinations" or something similar...

Factotum//Archivist

Squash Monster
2008-05-04, 01:52 AM
Pun-pun // Chuck


More seriously, I think the question is a bit too open-ended. But casters are better than everybody so some form of double caster with some options to get extra castings per turn is going to be your best bet. And wizard//archivist is great due to single attribute dependency and massive spell list.

So with that in mind, one of the following:
Wizard / War Weaver / Legacy Champion // Archivist
Wizard / Swiftblade // Archivist
Wizard / Havoc Mage // Archivist / Arcane Archer

Or for a more martial feel:
Wizard // Duskblade / Swiftblade / Bloodstorm Blade

The Necroswanso
2008-05-04, 02:22 AM
Barbarian/Warlock, even for a one level dip.

Ganurath
2008-05-04, 02:37 AM
Beguiler/Rogue. Beguiler is the true Batman, while the Rogue's sneak attack deals with foes hindered by Beguiler magic and UMD provides healing and divinations. Ladies and gentlemen, presenting Kira.

Turcano
2008-05-04, 02:44 AM
My personal favorite is Wizard/Incantatrix//Archivist. You know, just in case your spellcasting abilities just weren't disgusting enough.

Xefas
2008-05-04, 02:56 AM
I like plain Warblade//Wizard.

Full BAB, d12 HD, Full Spellcasting, Full Initiator level, All Good Saves**, Martial Proficiency, and the Armor Proficiency needed for a Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt later on. Not to mention Intelligence synergy.

It just gets more ridiculous if you tack on Prestige Classes.

**Fort and Will are Good Progression, and a Warblade class features gives you Int bonus to Reflex saves which makes them high as well

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-04, 03:35 AM
I'd say Rogue/Druid would be the best combination due to it having all good saves, Wildshape, sneak attack, an animal companion, trapfinding, Divine Magic and tons of class skills and skill points.

weenie
2008-05-04, 05:01 AM
Wizard/Incantatrix/Abjurant champion//Duskblade is my favourite so far. (unless you allow BoEF, then also throw some metaphysic spellshaper in the Wizard part)

Armads
2008-05-04, 06:59 AM
VoP Factotum 8/Ur-Priest 10/Warblade (anything, really) 2//Wizard/Incantatrix

Trade out all your crappy exalted feats via Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos, get Font of Inspiration till you can't take it anymore, and abuse the huge amounts of standard actions you get in any way you want. Plus you can get Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics (if you take Warblade levels), have Rebuking to fuel DMM (sadly you cant apply it to wizard spells), and are an incantatrix.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-04, 08:39 AM
"Best" is whatever you have the most fun with without interfering with anyone else's fun.

There's some really effective combo's out there, though.

For instance, a Druid//Ninja (Complete Adventurer) gets sickening. All good saved, 6+Int skill points per level, swift-action invisibility (powered by Wisdom), Wisdom to AC, bonuses to jumping, and Sudden Strike to go with Pounce from Wildshape. Plus full casting (based on Wisdom). With Wildshape, you can ignore Strength and Dexterity. This build basically just needs Constitution and Wisdom.

A Paladin//Wilder can do very well. Play as a Wilder, and you can drop Strength and Dex to fairly minimal levels (ultimately, you'll want +3 Dex for the AC, but you'll be getting most your AC from Full Plate, a Tower Shield and Elude Touch). Full BAB, d10 HD, saves through the roof due to Divine Grace, Charisma-based casting, and if you pick up Psychic Reformation at 8th, you can spend ten minutes to retool if you find your power selection isn't doing what you'd hoped.

There's several others.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-04, 09:08 AM
Courtesy of http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889:

Swordsage 1 (with the Shadow Blade feat), Battlesmith 1,Cleric 2 (with the Divine Might feat)/ Swashbuckler 3, ??? 1.

A level 4 character that adds every stat but CON to damage.

Of course, I don't know what this'll do to his base attack bonus, and he'll only be able to apply his wisdom bonus while wielding a hammer, and only apply the dex bonus while wielding a shadow blade weapon. Ask your DM if you can make a shortsword-hammer combination. Call it a Sham, and bribe him by saying it'll only do 1d4 damage on account of being such a wierd weapon. 1d4 won't matter in comparison with the +10 you can easily be dealing.

All praise the point-buy and magic item cost system that allows one to buy five +2 items for roughly 1/5 the price of a +10 item!

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-04, 11:22 AM
VoP Factotum 8/Ur-Priest 10/Warblade (anything, really) 2//Wizard/Incantatrix

Trade out all your crappy exalted feats via Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos, get Font of Inspiration till you can't take it anymore, and abuse the huge amounts of standard actions you get in any way you want. Plus you can get Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics (if you take Warblade levels), have Rebuking to fuel DMM (sadly you cant apply it to wizard spells), and are an incantatrix.

Except of course that your Wizard side can't cast spells, seeing as he isn't allowed to own a spellbook.


I like plain Warblade//Wizard.

Full BAB, d12 HD, Full Spellcasting, Full Initiator level, All Good Saves**, Martial Proficiency, and the Armor Proficiency needed for a Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt later on. Not to mention Intelligence synergy.

Except that the penalty for not having proficiency is a -0 penalty to all attack roles, meaning that proficiency is useless.


Personally, I'd go with the Wizard/Incantatrix//Archivist/Sacred Exorcist (just the one level) if I wasn't abusing Ur-Preist.

If I was?

Wizard 20//Bard 1/Duskblade 1/Wu-Jen 1/Warmage 1/Beguiler 1/Ur-Priest 10/Sublime Chord 5

For Wizard 20 with a CL of 25, plus Ur-Priest 10 at CL of either 25 or 85 (Rocking the Blasphemy Train either way since that's before items such as Ioun Stones and Pearls of Power).

Kurald Galain
2008-05-04, 11:39 AM
Wizard 20//Bard 1/Duskblade 1/Wu-Jen 1/Warmage 1/Beguiler 1/Ur-Priest 10/Sublime Chord 5

I think the recent Gestalt Challenges can do better than that :smallwink: Omnicaster FTW!

RTGoodman
2008-05-04, 12:15 PM
I haven't thought it out that much before now (and I'm AFB, so I can't look up a lot of stuff), but I think something like the following would be decent for a high damage output character.

Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/Fighter X/Full BAB Class X//Rogue 19/Something with Sneak Attack 1

You get full BAB, good Fort and Reflex saves, 8+Int skills (from a big list), all the Rogue abilities (though you're limited to light armor for many of them), the abilities from your other full BAB classes (martial maneuvers, mettle, Supreme Power Attack if you work towards Frenzied Berserker, or other stuff), and the chance to full two-handed PA/Leap Attack/Pounce/Shock Trooper hell-charge on a full attack that also adds in 11d6 sneak attack damage on each hit if you go first or otherwise get sneak attack.

Throw on Improved Initiative once or twice, the charging feats, and Steadfast Determination (or whatever it is that gives you Con to Will, unless you want to be mind-controlled or something), and then whatever other feats you want. Neraph Charge (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Neraph_Charge,PlH) works, too, if you can qualify, and keeps you from having to worry about winning initiative (since you probably won't need to charge an enemy more than once per encounter, seeing as how he's probably already dead by that point).


Of course, in gestalt there are probably a ton of ways to do a lot of damage, but this one seemed pretty easy.

expirement10K14
2008-05-04, 12:18 PM
Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserker 10/X 4//Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10
OR
Be a Centaur
RHD 4/Fighter 8/Hulking Hurler 3/Master Thrower 5//Cleric 10/Warhulk 10

Pure Win.

Chronos
2008-05-04, 12:18 PM
Omnicaster? Pshaw, I can do better than that. Presenting the Master of the Nine Magics:Azurin Bard 1/Warlock 1/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 9/Ur-Priest 1/Psychic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3 // Binder 5/Chameleon 2/Anima Mage 10/Mystic Theurge 2/Shadowcaster 1 (not in that order)

1: Bard//binder (2 flaws, Precocious Apprentice, Able Learner, Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil)
2: Warlock//binder
3: Ardent//binder (Practiced Manifester)
4: Cerebremancer (War2/Ard2)//binder
5: Cerebremancer (War3/Ard3)//binder
6: Ur-Priest//Chameleon (Alternate Spell Source)
7: Cerebremancer (War4/Ard4)//Chameleon
8: Psychic Theurge (Ur2/Ard5)//Anima Mage (bind6/war5)
9: Psychic Theurge (Ur3/Ard6)//Anima Mage (bind7/war6) (*metamagic*)
10: Sublime Chord//Anima Mage (bind8/war7)
11: Cerebremancer (sub2/ard7)//Anima Mage (bind9/war8)
12: Cerebremancer (war9/ard8)//Mystic Theurge (ur4/sub3) (Improved Binding)
13: Mystic Theurge (ur5/sub4)//Anima Mage (bind10/war10)
14: Cerebremancer (sub5/ard9)//Anima Mage (bind11/war11)
15: Cerebremancer (war12/ard10)//Mystic Theurge (ur6/sub6) (Truename Training)
16: Mystic Theurge (ur7/sub7)//Anima Mage (bind 12/war13)
17: Psychic Theurge (ur8/ard11)//Anima Mage (bind 13/war14) (Chaos shuffle bard weapon proficiencies) (Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind x2, Utterance of the Crafted Tool, Utterance of the Perfected Map, 3 Incarnum feats, Expanded Knowledge: Open Chakra)
18: Cerebremancer (sub8/ard12)//Anima Mage (bind 14/war15) (Martial Study)
19: Cerebremancer (war16/ard13)//Shadowcaster
20: Mystic Theurge (ur9/shad2)//Anima Mage (bind15/sub9)

OK, so technically, he's only a master of six magics, but he at least dabbles in the other three.
Arcane spells: Casts as a Sublime Chord 9, for 9th-level spells
Divine spells: Casts as an Ur-Priest 9, for 9th-level spells (assuming a Wis of 28)
Psionics: Has an Ardent manifester lever of 17, for 9th-level powers.
Invocations: Invokes as a Warlock 16, for Dark invokations
Incarnum: Has ten soulmelds shaped, any of which can be bound to a chakra and have up to four essentia invested
Pact magic: Binds as a 15th-level binder, with vestige choices as 17th level, for 8th-level vestiges
Truename magic: Can max ranks in True Speech, and has Perfected Map utterances
Shadow magic: Casts mysteries as a 2nd-level shadowcaster (the weakest magic in the build)
Sublime way: Has a 5th-level maneuver (IL 10)

More seriously, though, for raw power, it's hard to beat some combination of Wizard, Archivist, Factotum, and your casting-advancing PrCs of choice. Everyone knows how powerful the full casters are, and the factotum levels give them more of that most precious resource, actions in combat. Depending on how many levels of factotum you take, and how many feats you spend on Font of Inspiration, you can get between one and ten extra actions in each encounter, which you use to cast more of your devastating spells of choice. And you also gain all sorts of other nifty effects to use your Int mod for: Add it to your attack roll, to be certain you hit with a ray, or to your Armor Class, or to a saving throw, or to a wide variety of skill checks, or your initiative, or probably a couple of others I'm forgetting. The optimum build is probably either wizard (or equivalent) 20 // factotum 8/archivist 12 or archivist 20 // factotum 8/wizard (or equivalent) 12, depending on just what spells your DM lets archivists get ahold of.

JoshuaZ
2008-05-04, 01:09 PM
Chronos, you can't use cerebemancer in a gestalt build.

Chronos
2008-05-04, 02:01 PM
Ordinarily, no (nor Mystic Theurge, nor Psychic Theurge, nor Anima Mage). One also can't ordinarily take two prestige classes at once in Gestalt. But that build was a response to Kurald Galain's Omnicaster, which also uses such classes. The Omnicaster was originally written up for one of Duke of URL's contests, which merely strongly discourage dual-progression classes, rather than outright banning them.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-04, 04:02 PM
@Chronos, technically, you have a manifester level of 18.

@Kurald, every time Gestalt comes up, you are not required to tell everyone else that their builds, which follow the actual rules, suck because you made a build for a challenge once that ignored all the rules of gestalt.

Also, my build would annihilate the Omnicaster using Foresight/Celerity or his likely higher Init and then instagibbing with a Blasphemy/Quickened Holy Word.

So please stop explaining why everyone else's builds are pathetic.

D Knight
2008-05-04, 06:29 PM
i am supized that no one here said warlock20/rouge20 or warlock 15/ hellfire warlock 5// rouge 20 for the epic win and the trophy.its nothing unless you always hide with in 30 ft of the door or a spot that no more that 30 ft away from a certian spot.Pluse you get great skill points and a large slection of skill and empower and maximize SLA. you just roast any one or thing that you do not like.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-04, 06:39 PM
@Kurald, every time Gestalt comes up, you are not required to tell everyone else that their builds, which follow the actual rules, suck because you made a build for a challenge once that ignored all the rules of gestalt.

Whoa, dude, can we do this without the flaming please? I didn't say anywhere that anybody's build "sucked" or is "pathetic", and I'd sincerely appreciate it if you would refrain from putting words into my mouth in the future. Seriously, lighten up.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-04, 06:40 PM
Courtesy of http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889:

Swordsage 1 (with the Shadow Blade feat), Battlesmith 1,Cleric 2 (with the Divine Might feat)/ Swashbuckler 3, ??? 1.

A level 4 character that adds every stat but CON to damage.

Of course, I don't know what this'll do to his base attack bonus, and he'll only be able to apply his wisdom bonus while wielding a hammer, and only apply the dex bonus while wielding a shadow blade weapon. Ask your DM if you can make a shortsword-hammer combination. Call it a Sham, and bribe him by saying it'll only do 1d4 damage on account of being such a wierd weapon. 1d4 won't matter in comparison with the +10 you can easily be dealing.

All praise the point-buy and magic item cost system that allows one to buy five +2 items for roughly 1/5 the price of a +10 item!

Apparently I'm not cool enough to even be insulted. :-(

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-04, 07:02 PM
Druid 20//Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Swordsage 2/Warshaper 5/MoMF 10

Not necessarily the most powerful, but 16 BaB, MoMF wildshape, Wis to AC, Rage, 2 bonus feats, +4 str, +4 con, +5 ft reach, and 20 levels of spellcasting. Yeah, it's not the most powerful, but my mother would be able to kick butt playing that.

Plus, who doesn't want to turn into a raging bear that's even bulkier than normal ad has the bite of a collassal creature?

Nohwl
2008-05-04, 07:22 PM
i have heard artificer 20/archivist 20 is really good.

Trizap
2008-05-04, 08:31 PM
I haven't played Gestalt yet but I figured Favored Soul/Sorcerer would be great since they both use CHA to cast spontaneous spells, therefore you just need one stat to cast both Divine and Arcane Spells and such a character would be a great candidate for a Mystic Theurge.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-04, 11:02 PM
Whoa, dude, can we do this without the flaming please?

And how is anything that I said even remotely like flaming? If you think I was flaming report me for it so that the moderators can get a good laugh.

monty
2008-05-05, 12:12 AM
Wizard / Incantatrix // Druid / Planar Shepherd? Hideously overpowered wizard cheese on one side, and hideously overpowered druid cheese on the other. Might be a bit feat-starved (with no synergy whatsoever), but you will kill everything.

Cuddly
2008-05-05, 12:27 AM
monk//samurai is really good. u get liek realy sick weapon skillz and when ur stuck in jale, u can use ur kungfu 2 get out lol. Wearting hevy armor is pwoerful.

Squash Monster
2008-05-05, 12:41 AM
Wizard / Incantatrix // Druid / Planar Shepherd? Hideously overpowered wizard cheese on one side, and hideously overpowered druid cheese on the other. Might be a bit feat-starved (with no synergy whatsoever), but you will kill everything.Not feat-starved really, since Druid needs one feat ever. But it suffers from MAD and I'm not sure where you fit the levels in (remember: only one prestige at a time). I suppose you only take 5 of Planar Shepherd. And it suffers the same weakness as almost all the builds that have been posted.


Folks, most of you have the right idea and are posting some form of dual-casters, but you're really missing a major point: being strong in gestalt means finding a way to actually use more than one of your options at a time. Extra actions are king in gestalt.

Factotum works, but it stops you from being a proper dual-caster. Ruby Knight Vindicator is the best way to do it, but questionable in gestalt rules.

I still think War Weaver or the bonus casting trick through havoc mage + arcane archer are your best bets.

Cuddly
2008-05-05, 01:14 AM
Just dip a single level of Warblade or Swordsage late in the game for WRT.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 01:14 AM
Outside of full spellcasters, what would be the best combination? I think straight up Warblade20/Factotum20 would be pretty good. Take lots of Fonts of Inspiration, and unload ALL of your maneuvers in one round. Next round, refresh your maneuvers :D

Squash Monster
2008-05-05, 01:39 AM
Frosty - that's a very good start. But... Your build's mastery only applies during his own turns. If I can steal four levels and three feats, we can fix that little problem.

Do a late dip into Crusader to get Thicket of Blades, and make one of your feats Combat Reflexes. Couple that with a two-level monk dip somewhere with the Overwhelming Strike substitution and Serpent Strike feat. Take Stand Still. Activate Overwhelming Strike at some point during your turn so it doubles the damage of your attacks of opportunity to make everything that tries to mount a counteroffensive stop in their tracks using Stand Still.

Now you have a martial adept that can go nova every turn and is a lockdown fighter when it's not his turn.


If you really want to get cheesy, you could take Leadership at some point to get a cohort who can cast Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos on you. Then you can found dozens of legacy weapons to get dozens of the Least Legacy feat and shuffle those into more Font of Inspiration. With that, you can afford proper lockdown feats (Defensive Sweep, Robilar's Gambit, the mage killing line) and still have enough Font of Inspiration that you can afford to have some of them only apply when buffed.

End result: the above scary guy, except he gets (half his intelligence mod squared) actions per round. So a lightweight version of Chuck.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 01:41 AM
Frosty - that's a very good start. But... Your build's mastery only applies during his own turns. If I can steal four levels and three feats, we can fix that little problem.

Do a late dip into Crusader to get Thicket of Blades, and make one of your feats Combat Reflexes. Couple that with a two-level monk dip somewhere with the Overwhelming Strike substitution and Serpent Strike feat. Take Stand Still. Activate Overwhelming Strike at some point during your turn so it doubles the damage of your attacks of opportunity to make everything that tries to mount a counteroffensive stop in their tracks using Stand Still.


If you really want to get cheesy, you could take Leadership at some point to get a cohort who can cast Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos on you. Then you can found dozens of legacy weapons to get dozens of the Least Legacy feat and shuffle those into more Font of Inspiration. With that, you can afford proper lockdown feats (Defensive Sweep, Robilar's Gambit, the mage killing line) and still have enough Font of Inspiration that you can afford to have some of them only apply when buffed.


So a lightweight version of Chuck.

Why waste 2 levels of Crusader Dip? Just sinka feat to get Thicket of Blades.

Squash Monster
2008-05-05, 01:45 AM
Feats are worth more than levels: you get 40 levels and only 7 feats. And you'll need a lot of feats to get a lot of Font of Inspiration.

You'd also need to sink two feats to get it, since you'd also need Martial Study: Foehammer or something of that ilk.

Besides, you get a whole bunch of other stuff from the Crusader dip.

Turcano
2008-05-05, 01:55 AM
Folks, most of you have the right idea and are posting some form of dual-casters, but you're really missing a major point: being strong in gestalt means finding a way to actually use more than one of your options at a time. Extra actions are king in gestalt.

Remember, the builds with Incantatrix levels do give you extra actions through cheaper access to Quicken Spell.

Talic
2008-05-05, 02:00 AM
Troll Racial HD (6)/ Half dragon ECL (3)/ Cleric 11 // Troll ECL 5/Wizard 5/Elemental Savant 10

Use DMM for Persistent Prot from evil. Half dragon is green. Elemental savant is fire.

Immune to ongoing control. Immune to fire and acid. Takes all other damage as non-lethal. With a Cloak of the Manta, immune to nonlethal damage underwater. Regeneration. Able to have contingencies. Generally a bad bad man giant.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-05, 06:02 AM
Troll Racial HD (6)/ Half dragon ECL (3)/ Cleric 11 // Troll ECL 5/Wizard 5/Elemental Savant 10

Use DMM for Persistent Prot from evil. Half dragon is green. Elemental savant is fire.

Immune to ongoing control. Immune to fire and acid. Takes all other damage as non-lethal. With a Cloak of the Manta, immune to nonlethal damage underwater. Regeneration. Able to have contingencies. Generally a bad bad man giant.

Where do the fire and acid immunities come from? I'm just asking which specific parts, so I can use this myself. Also, can one coup-de-grace a helpless foe with nonlethal damage?

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 06:27 AM
Ooh, pick me, pick me!

Spellthief 5/Prestige Bard 5/ Sublime Chord 10//Sorcerer 10/Incantatrix 10

Take Master Spellthief to let you steal spells at full level. Because of the Prestige Bard, you might be able to argue that your Sublime Chord spellcasting, which is built on top of the Bard (and therefore Spellthief) casting, can be powered by stolen spells...

Kurald Galain
2008-05-05, 07:04 AM
And how is anything that I said even remotely like flaming? If you think I was flaming report me for it so that the moderators can get a good laugh.

Since you obviously have nothing to contribute to this forum, I'll just put you on my ignore list. Go pick a fight somewhere else.


Getting back on-topic, if the gestalt character isn't a caster, I think a warblade / rogue combo would be interesting, using the former to gain extra attacks and the latter for skillmonkeying and sneak attacks (using the alternative class feature that lets you partially sneak attack undead, and assuming you won't run into all that many plantals or oozes).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 07:26 AM
Ooh, pick me, pick me!

Spellthief 5/Prestige Bard 5/ Sublime Chord 10//Sorcerer 10/Incantatrix 10

Take Master Spellthief to let you steal spells at full level. Because of the Prestige Bard, you might be able to argue that your Sublime Chord spellcasting, which is built on top of the Bard (and therefore Spellthief) casting, can be powered by stolen spells...

Actually, in gestalt, you can add your Sublime Chord levels to any Arcane Caster class, so you should add it to Sorcerer. CL 30 for Sorcerer/Sublime Chord/and Spellthief spells.


Since you obviously have nothing to contribute to this forum, I'll just put you on my ignore list. Go pick a fight somewhere else.

Oh wow, that's never happened before, except once a month when you put me on ignore.

I did contribute to this thread, with an actual gestalt build that follows the rules. Your only post was one deriding my build for not being as good as yours that breaks the rules. Congratulations, you have nothing to contribute to the thread.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 07:31 AM
If you add your Sublime Chord casting to Sorcerer, you can't power it with Steal Spell, which was the whole point of the slightly convoluted process.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 07:45 AM
If you add your Sublime Chord casting to Sorcerer, you can't power it with Steal Spell, which was the whole point of the slightly convoluted process.

What on earth do you mean "Power it with steal spell" there is no aspect of Sublime Chord that is "powered" by anything.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 07:51 AM
No, it's from the Spellthief. Spellthieves can steal spells from people and either cast the stolen spell or use it to cast one of their own spells (unfortunately, it says spellthief spells, so you can't normally get away with a Steal Spell trick like this without doing something slightly complicated).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 08:02 AM
No, it's from the Spellthief. Spellthieves can steal spells from people and either cast the stolen spell or use it to cast one of their own spells (unfortunately, it says spellthief spells, so you can't normally get away with a Steal Spell trick like this without doing something slightly complicated).

Well then it doesn't sound like you could use stolen spells to cast your Sublime Chord spells anyway, though if you could I don't think it would matter which class you choose to add Sublime Chord levels too.

And if you could this might be really funny if you can use it to power higher level spells by "stealing" one of your first level Sorcerer spells and using it to cast a 9th level Sublime Chord spell.

Talic
2008-05-05, 08:04 AM
Where do the fire and acid immunities come from? I'm just asking which specific parts, so I can use this myself. Also, can one coup-de-grace a helpless foe with nonlethal damage?

Elemental savant (fire) changes you to a Elemental (fire subtype) at level 10. As a fire subtype creature, you are naturally immune to fire.

Half-dragon (green) gives you immunity to acid.

Both are racial (Ex) abilities. Both work in an antimagic field, as does the regeneration.

You may coup de grace with nonlethal damage, by strict reading of the SRD. However, the problem is getting past the contingent teleport or cure or somesuch for when he falls unconscious, as he does cast as a 14th level wizard (with a caster level 18, having practiced spellcaster) and a 11th level cleric (caster level 15). That's level 7 wizard spells, and level 6 cleric spells. It's also gonna have good strength, with the troll and half-dragon kicking bonuses that'll change an 8 to nearly a 30. Assuming you put at least a 10 in strength, you'll have 30. That leaves plenty of stat to spread to Int/Cha.

Talic
2008-05-05, 08:08 AM
Actually, in gestalt, you can add your Sublime Chord levels to any Arcane Caster class, so you should add it to Sorcerer. CL 30 for Sorcerer/Sublime Chord/and Spellthief spells.


Actually, gestalt prohibits PrC's on both sides of the advancement, making it an illegal build. Even if it was legal, in gestalt, when 2 classes advance the same thing in gestalt, you only take the more advantageous progression. In this case, Incantatrix and Sublime Chord would both be trying to add to Sorceror caster level at the same time. Each does it at a rate of 1/level. Thus, you choose the more advantageous rate (either one), getting 1/level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-05, 09:03 AM
No spellcastng?
LT Barb 1/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 15//Rogue 17/Scout 3
Swift Hunter/Ambusher. Mostly D12 HD, 8 Skill Points per level, Undead and Aberrations are vulnerable to your SA and Skirmish, Rogue and Scout levels stack for SA and Skirmish, you can pounce and get full attacks despite gaining your skirmish benefits, 9th level maneuvers (Tiger Claw and WR), and TWF is viable. :smallbiggrin:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 09:06 AM
Actually, gestalt prohibits PrC's on both sides of the advancement, making it an illegal build. Even if it was legal, in gestalt, when 2 classes advance the same thing in gestalt, you only take the more advantageous progression. In this case, Incantatrix and Sublime Chord would both be trying to add to Sorceror caster level at the same time. Each does it at a rate of 1/level. Thus, you choose the more advantageous rate (either one), getting 1/level.

1) I don't even know why he added Incantatrix in there, since Incantatrix isn't all that good for Sorcerers.

2) A straight Sorcerer 20//Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is going to have a CL of 30 for Bard, Sublime Chord, and Sorcerer spells.

This is because Sublime Chord does not add to Sorcerer casting. It specifically says that you add your Sublime Chord level (10) to the level of another arcane casting class you have (Sorcerer, 20) to determine your CL for all arcane spellcasting classes (Sorcerer, Bard, Sublime Chord).

Replacing Bard with Spellthief/Prestige Bard does nothing to change this.

DrizztFan24
2008-05-05, 09:13 AM
Druid20/Monk5/MoMF5/Warshaper10

Wisdom synergies. I plan on doing this build (thanks to the input of the playground) and It looks like it will be alot of fun.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-05, 09:21 AM
Druid20/Monk5/MoMF5/Warshaper10

Wisdom synergies. I plan on doing this build (thanks to the input of the playground) and It looks like it will be alot of fun.Druid 20/Monk 5/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5
You had those a bit mixed up.

DrizztFan24
2008-05-05, 09:30 AM
Druid 20/Monk 5/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5
You had those a bit mixed up.

hehe, oops. Thanks for the fix.:smallbiggrin:

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 10:09 AM
OK, make it Sorcerer 20// Spellthief 5/Prestige Bard 5//Sublime Chord 10.

The Spellthief can use a spell stolen to power a spell they know of an equal level- if you steal Magic Missile, you could cast Mage Armour with it, but not Invisibility.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 11:10 AM
What about something simple like Duskblade/Beguiler?

Chronos
2008-05-05, 03:49 PM
Duskblade/other caster is an interesting combination, since as I recall, the Duskblade's channeling isn't limited to Duskblade spells. But I'm not sure I see what makes Beguiler preferable to Wizard, for that: Even if you don't like prepared casting, the Duskblade's spontaneous spells should be enough to carry you through the few times you don't have the right spell prepared.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 03:59 PM
Because Wizards are broken and I want to play something other than a wizard for once :smalltongue: It's been too easy playing even a semi-optimized wizard. The DM now makes sure that the BBEGs in our campaign have high resistances to Fire, Ice, and negative energy.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 04:24 PM
If the GM is ensuring that villains have access to decent acid and sonic resistance, it it a sign that caster gaming is approaching saturation point?

JaxGaret
2008-05-05, 04:27 PM
For a non full spellcaster gestalt build, I might go with something like this:

Bard20//WildshapeRanger5/MoMF10/Warshaper5

Combine Inspire Courage opimization (regular + Dragonfire Inspiration) and other melee Bard tricks (Snowflake Wardance etc.) plus tons of natural attacks, plus general Wild Shape utility, plus Bard casting for a nice overall build.

Probably not the best, but a good one.