PDA

View Full Version : Is there such a thing as a golem golem?



FMArthur
2008-05-04, 03:24 PM
Meaning, a golem made out of other golems. I don't know why I thought of it, but now that I have, I'd be really interested to know if it's possible for future DMing.

Spiryt
2008-05-04, 03:26 PM
You mean steel arm, flesh torso, stone head, et cetera? Something like - Frankenstein golem?

FMArthur
2008-05-04, 03:31 PM
I was actually thinking of a large quantity of smaller golems that could also function individually, like using hundreds of Gingerbread Golems (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/Cc85LTNvTgOuH1xTRjz.html), but really just any way to do it. Could even come up with a Power Rangers-esque golem team if I wanted to have a table full of people laughing for an hour.

nargbop
2008-05-04, 03:50 PM
This is beautiful. Huge Golem when it suits, Swarm when it suits.

Cuddly
2008-05-04, 03:56 PM
"But what are those golems made out of?"
"Even smaller golems."

Dode
2008-05-04, 03:57 PM
That is the most idiotic idea I have ever heard on these boards and I expect a detailed build on it before 8 PM so I can use it for a campaign.

EvilElitest
2008-05-04, 04:17 PM
1) dode do you want three build to go with that triple post?
2) More to the point, couldn't you give a golem the half golem template?
from
EE

Spiryt
2008-05-04, 04:42 PM
Dode, what's up with that spam?

Anyway, that's interesting idea, but how would such amount of small golems cooperate to be effective as bigger golem?

I know that it's magic and all, and I'm too bitching monotonous :smallwink:, but one solid big golem would be more practical in every utility aspect.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-04, 05:45 PM
Dode, what's up with that spam?

Anyway, that's interesting idea, but how would such amount of small golems cooperate to be effective as bigger golem?

I know that it's magic and all, and I'm too bitching monotonous :smallwink:, but one solid big golem would be more practical in every utility aspect.

Cost. See: Exponential scaling of D&D.

Ten little ones is ALWAYS less expensive, doable with less skill, and less time consuming than one big one. Not to mention they can fit through small spaces and such.

Besides, do tell me, would you rather face 10 golems coming from all sides, or one big one? Whatever circumstances are (say you have some huge crossbow that could 1-shot the big golem. Now you have to fire ten times for the same damage.) you WILL be at a disadvantage.

Spiryt
2008-05-04, 06:08 PM
Cost. See: Exponential scaling of D&D.

Ten little ones is ALWAYS less expensive, doable with less skill, and less time consuming than one big one. Not to mention they can fit through small spaces and such.

Besides, do tell me, would you rather face 10 golems coming from all sides, or one big one? Whatever circumstances are (say you have some huge crossbow that could 1-shot the big golem. Now you have to fire ten times for the same damage.) you WILL be at a disadvantage.

Yep. Horde of smaller golems would certainly have tactical disadvantages, but also advantages compared to single big one.

But OP is talking about many small golems operaiting as one big, I believe, and that was what I was talking about.

Icewalker
2008-05-04, 06:10 PM
A golem made of golems? So...power rangers?

Spiryt
2008-05-04, 06:14 PM
A golem made of golems? So...power rangers?

TRANSFORMATION!!!!

Moff Chumley
2008-05-04, 06:23 PM
I'd just wing it and advance the golem two HD for every equivalent HD golem that joins it. Not perfect, but somewhat sound.

Eurus
2008-05-04, 06:24 PM
Huh... Sounds kind of like a Mechanus thing. A bunch of little gear-shaped golems that combine into a giant juggernaut of doom. XD Can they turn into other forms, like a cannon or a solid wall, or just a golem? Can the little ones rebuild each other? Because a giant, disassemble-able, regenerating, transforming swarm-golem monstrosity would be much too awesome not to use.

EvilElitest
2008-05-04, 06:25 PM
I'd just wing it and advance the golem two HD for every equivalent HD golem that joins it. Not perfect, but somewhat sound.

Golem with half golem template sounds good to me
from
EE
Edit
Oh FMArthur, what does you name stand for?

Triaxx
2008-05-04, 06:32 PM
Anyone else thinking: "We need the Golem Golem." (One golem rises from a volcano, another leaps a treeline...)

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-04, 06:33 PM
Anyone else thinking: "We need the Golem Golem." (One golem rises from a volcano, another leaps a treeline...)

Ay. Thats what we're ALL thinking of.

Chronos
2008-05-04, 06:35 PM
A golem made of golems? So...power rangers?Sheesh, kids these days. Not Power Rangers. Voltron.

Randel
2008-05-04, 06:38 PM
I think I read about a Puzzle Golem somewhere. Basically, a bunch of small golems that could be fitted together to make medium or large golems.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-04, 06:39 PM
First:don't call Dode's triple post 'spam'. It's actually the result of slow boards, and so assume good faith before calling others spammers.

Secondly, you could certainly make a Grisgol (MM2) out of lesser magic items - and golems are magic items.

Icewalker
2008-05-04, 06:39 PM
Sheesh, kids these days. Not Power Rangers. Voltron.

Interestingly, I'm 16 and I remember that show.

FMArthur
2008-05-04, 09:22 PM
Thanks for the input everyone. I think the HD advancement idea fits the best so far; the half-golem template seems like it's fairly redundant, because it's just giving abilities the golem already has and they don't stack very nicely. Obviously it's an appalling waste of resources to make golems of golems at all, but you should at least be getting something for the collossal additional costs in time and money. But the amount of HD added seems like it needs to vary, because some golems don't have a lot of HD and some have much more, so stacking two small golems would end up gaining the same as stacking two large golems if the increase were at a fixed rate. Not to mention it doesn't account for mixed golem golem creation. Further, since golems are immune to magic and the creation of golems (and half-golems) is a magical process, the golems would really need to be made to physically fit together and mechanically, rather than magically, form a single entity. So it actually has to be a new type of golem, to be able to fit together, and because they'll need to give HD to the golem golem depending on their size instead of their type so that things don't get ridiculously complicated.

I think I have a solution that also covers the inclusion of mixed-size golems a little (I'll be referring to the "golem golem" as being the "golem assembly" for less confusion. Golem assemblies can be treated as golems for the purposes of being included in other golem assemblies):

Hit Dice Advancement: Start with 2 HD, and add from there (even if there's only 1). Add 1 HD for every 9 Diminutive golems, 1 HD for every 3 Tiny golems, 1 HD for every Small golem, 3 HD for every Medium golem, 9 HD for every Large golem, 27 HD for every Huge golem, and so on from there if you dare to.
Basically, add (3 ^ x) HD, where x is the number of size increments from Small each golem is.

Size Advancement:

3 Diminutive golems can become a Tiny golem assembly
3 Tiny golems (or golem assemblies) can become a Small golem assembly
3 Small golems (or golem assemblies) can become a Medium golem assembly
3 Medium golems (or golem assemblies) can become a Large golem assembly
3 Large golems (or golem assemblies) can become a Huge golem assembly
3 Huge golems (or golem assemblies) can become a Gargantuan golem assembly :smalleek:


...and so on from there if you like. You might be wondering why I didn't choose to use D&D's existing system of 'how many creatures of x size fit in a creature of y size', and that's because of how ridiculously 4-for-1 scales when used for HD, and because of problems that arise from making the assembly's size and HD not scale together (where you wind up being able to add 3 (x)-sized golem assemblies for more benefit than an (x+1)-sized golem assembly, despite it taking four to make one). This does unfortunately mean that combining Diminutive golems into Tiny, and combinations below that, doesn't affect their Hit Dice, but otherwise it's the best way to do it I can think of.


It's not pretty, and probably breaks down at some point, but it's a start. I'm not even going to pretend to be knowledgeable about size increases affecting stats, though. How do they change a creature's stats? And how quickly should they be able to break apart or come together?


EDIT: Sorry, this entire post should instead read: "Oh, I guess it's too bad there isn't one. I'll go to the Homebrew forum and create one", since I was honestly expecting there to already be something like this elsewhere. Reading this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) now, which is full of everything I don't know about creating monsters. :smallconfused:

Admiral Squish
2008-05-04, 09:39 PM
I can see this as a great quest. Lots of tiny or small golems show up all over the place. At first, they're a nuisance, but then they start to join together, and their power grows exponentially as they do, and you have to stop them before three or four colossal-sized golems join together into a super-colossal form.

GrassyGnoll
2008-05-04, 09:45 PM
Great for an abandoned lab, eh? The PCs see little constructs darting in and out of their peripheral vision until they're right paranoid. The things scamper around locking doors and setting traps and reforms itself in front of the exit.

Vella_Malachite
2008-05-04, 09:52 PM
That...is just awesome! I want one!:smalltongue:

holywhippet
2008-05-04, 10:16 PM
Sheesh, kids these days. Not Power Rangers. Voltron.

I was thinking Transformers actually - "Golems, merge and form Megagolem."

They used this idea in Dragon Quest 8. You could form teams of fighting monsters, if you put the three stone golem types together they could merge into a really big version.

Khosan
2008-05-04, 10:43 PM
I can see this as a great quest. Lots of tiny or small golems show up all over the place. At first, they're a nuisance, but then they start to join together, and their power grows exponentially as they do, and you have to stop them before three or four colossal-sized golems join together into a super-colossal form.

...This is like Transformers with the "Mini-Cons" or whatever they were.

chiasaur11
2008-05-04, 11:11 PM
Hmm....

Any way to have Golems add distinct abilities for a Mighty Orbots style Golem?

GoC
2008-05-04, 11:38 PM
Hit Dice Advancement: Start with 2 HD, and add from there (even if there's only 1). Add 1 HD for every 9 Diminutive golems, 1 HD for every 3 Tiny golems, 1 HD for every Small golem, 3 HD for every Medium golem, 9 HD for every Large golem, 27 HD for every Huge golem, and so on from there if you dare to.
Basically, add (3 ^ x) HD, where x is the number of size increments from Small each golem is.

It's not pretty, and probably breaks down at some point, but it's a start.
Immediately after Huge in fact.
A couple of Colossal golems (like Stone Colossus') combine and now have 486 HD? That's some pretty good saves and hp...

Rutee
2008-05-04, 11:52 PM
This is fantastic. OP, you are the wind beneath my wings.

I have shocking information relevant to this thread (Scroll down, see if you can figure it out) (http://members9.tsukaeru.net/ty1_toys/sakuhin/DANBOARD.htm)

monty
2008-05-05, 12:01 AM
Wouldn't a swarm of golems be immune to just about everything? It's already immune to magic, and if you throw immunity to targeted spells (i.e. no Disintegrate) and weapon damage on it, what's left?

NephandiMan
2008-05-05, 01:00 AM
You guys aren't thinking big enough. Not Transformers, not Power Rangers, not Voltron - what we need here is...

Tengen Toppa Golem Lagann.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 01:05 AM
Can someone tell me what exactly the Half-Golem template grants?

AslanCross
2008-05-05, 01:34 AM
Sheesh, kids these days. Not Power Rangers. Voltron.

Voltron is exactly what I thought.

Two ways Voltron golem could work: The Lion team (real name: Go-Lion) is a colossal golem made out of five Huge lion-shaped constructs.

The Vehicle Team (Dairugger XV)...is made out of fifteen different siege engines and constructs.



You guys aren't thinking big enough. Not Transformers, not Power Rangers, not Voltron - what we need here is...

Tengen Toppa Golem Lagann.


I think my brain just broke.


Can someone tell me what exactly the Half-Golem template grants?

I'm afraid I can't, since that would be illegal. However, let's just say it changes the creature's stats depending on what kind of limb you attach while allowing it to keep its CON score. However, for each limb you attach, it has to make a will save. If it fails, it just turns into a golem of the appropriate type and becomes NE and develops anger at the world.

Talic
2008-05-05, 02:03 AM
Voltron is for cartoon buffs that never heard of Tranzor Z. Tranzor Z golem FTW.

Funkyodor
2008-05-05, 02:06 AM
Couldn't you also fashion them after the not-so-popular GoBots and make Go-Lem.

I think a Swarm would be too much when combined with the construct traits. But having a bunch of tiny Pillsbury clay golems that the PC's smoosh early on combine into the Stay-Puft Marshmellow Man golem would be too cool.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 02:13 AM
Is there also a half-construct template?

pasko77
2008-05-05, 02:28 AM
Sheesh, kids these days. Not Power Rangers. Voltron.

Of course. That's the first image i pictured.
...
I'm afraid we're getting old... :)

fruityjanitor
2008-05-05, 07:52 PM
"But what are those golems made out of?"
"Even smaller golems."

Fractal golems! This just gets better and better.

Tack122
2008-05-05, 09:04 PM
Perhaps for a bit of a change, start at nano scale with the golems, with a hive mind between them.

Human Form Replicators from Stargate anyone?
Also quite like the liquid metal terminator I suppose.

FMArthur
2008-05-05, 09:22 PM
This thread continues in the homebrew section, where I actually statted them out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4287008).

Tack122: Unfortunately, for the golems to scale properly I had to ditch the idea of Diminutive and smaller golems, because they'd all be riding on the minimum Hit Dice all the way down. You could reduce it into just being a certain low number of Hit Points, but that requires significant deviation from what I'm trying to make into an actual system. The "hive mind" idea was already added in the new thread, though.

Benejeseret
2008-05-05, 09:32 PM
I have a great way that is *mostly* fully within RAW.

Make effigies of Kalabon's. They are devils so that is the only stretch...but since you are crafting them from scratch it should be feasible since there needs to be no basis for the effigy other than the idea/template.

All the Kaladon's special abilities are EX (except stench) and are kept by the effigy version.

Each one is small but 32 combine into a Huge creature.