Punisher

[Sir_Chivalry]

If Frank Castle was a DnD character, what would his class be?

[Dode]

hey guys if I posted a gigantic :rolleyes: in this thread would that break a forum rule?

[Devin]

After we figure out his class, let's talk about his alignment.

[Dalenthas]

Fighter.
LN.

[Devin]

Fighter.
LN.

It wasn't supposed to be that easy. :smallannoyed:

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Has ranger skills. Barbarian, hell even some ninja skills.

[HeroicSociopath]

Urban Ranger (Spell-less varaint)
Chaotic good leaning chaotic neutral.


The classes suck for heroes though, mutants&masterminds was bassicaly equipped to handle supers.

[Jayngfet]

Ranger, 'cause favored enimy (archie)

[Zencao]

How could it be anything other than true lawful?

He follows his own code to the letter, and doesn't let morals get in the way :s

[kpenguin]

Lawful Neutral, maybe Lawful Evil if you don't like Frank.

[Gundato]

I had a post in another thread, but it really depends on how relaxed you are with alignments.

He could easily be argued as an LG paladin. Lawful? Got that in spades (albeit, more of the "an eye for an eye" variety than federal). Good? Read the MAX series, Frank is a good man at heart, he just is also a very violent sociopath. Paladin is pretty obvious.

If you insist on only having ass-sticked Paladins, Frank would probably be an LN/LG Rogue/Barbarian. He fights like a bat out of hell (Barbarian), but also emphasizes tactics and sneak attacks (Rogue).

[Verruckt]

Um, unless my memory eludes me, in Punisher: Born (one of the MAX books) didn't dear old Frank essentially strike a deal with SATAN in order to survive Vietnam? (or more to the point a napalm strike right on his head) Not that i have a problem with this, it's just that it strikes paladin right out, maybe Shadowbane Inquisitor?

[Gundato]

The Grim Reaper actually, not satan. Big difference there.

And either way, if the deity/cause falls into the LN/LG/NG range (and I would think the Grim Reaper would be as LN as it gets), it is still doable.

[Laurentio]

Against every D&D rule, I'd say a good-aligned Black Guard.

Laurentio

[Gundato]

That is just it, Frank is actually vehemently opposed to consorting with the dark powers as it were. He will occasionally work alongside a criminal or other bad guy, but (unless said bad guy is Jigsaw :p) he will backstab the guy with a shotgun to the face. Same with when the CIA wanted to fund Frank as a government assassin. Once he found out it was drug money, Frank blew the crap out of everyone (including an old friend).

I am sure there is some PrC that perfectly fits, but based off the base classes, an LG Paladin fits the most.

[Blue Paladin]

Wait. What? How can these two sentences:

[He] will backstab the guy with a shotgun to the face.

[An] LG Paladin fits the most.ever make sense together!?

[Verruckt]

"Sorry buddy, I know you haven't talked anything but perfect sense this whole issue, and done nothing but cared for me really. Now I know you're lying there, gutshot, but you've come in arms length of a government heroine trafficking program, so..." (inserts shotgun into ear)

Um folks, Frank is a little, extremely, ****ed in the ****ing head.

That, if you read MAX, is the least ****ed in the ****ing head he does in the series, need I go into the hanging a mans intestines through the trees like tinsel bit? He is not good.

[Gundato]

The standard 3.5e Paladin will cleave people in two with a greatsword, or leave a dismembered foe at -3 HP for a few hours at a time. How is that much worse?

And not good? Using MAX for example, what about when he broke up the sex-slavery ring? It just so happened that his "Smite Evil" involved reinforced glass :p
When he killed an entire missile silo (dungeon...) full of Russians (and one Mongolian :p) to rescue a little girl?

Think about it, most of the actions the standard Paladin takes are pretty messed up in the first place. Frank is just a bit more noticeable because Garth Ennis hasn't written him with rose tinted glasses.

[Blue Paladin]

The standard 3.5e Paladin will cleave people in two with a greatsword, or leave a dismembered foe at -3 HP for a few hours at a time. How is that much worse?Because if the paladin is cleaving people who are not Evil with a capital E (and I guarantee you in an organization like the CIA, there are people in there who are LN, just "following orders" a la Nuremberg), then he's not going to stay a Paladin for very long.

Batman is more of a paladin than the Punisher ever will be. And that's really saying something.

Think about it, most of the actions the standard Paladin takes are pretty messed up in the first place.Which is why paladins fall.

[Gundato]

So the Paladin who clears out a dungeon is guaranteed to fall? He is raiding a creature's home and brutally slaughtering everything. The Paladin who kills the Goblins that are preying on a farming community is destined to fall? He is obviously killing a family of Gobbos, even if the GM doesn't explicitly point out that one of the goblins was smaller than the others.

And which CIA Spook are you referring to that was LN? Switching to spoiler mode now:
I only count O'Brien's ex and Microchip as CIA-related individuals he killed (directly and knowingly). The former is definitely Evil, the latter was working with a group that was selling drugs to children.
Are we to assume that all the neutral thieves who work for an evil organization should never be hurt?

Not all evil has a capital E in their alignment, and not all Good rescues princesses every other day.

And maybe you should actually read a bit more of The Punisher. The older stuff works, but Ennis's version is what I am referencing. Frank makes it a point to NOT kill everyone, and gives a lot of the more petty criminals second chances (but only a second chance, and they usually screw it up and get shot anyway). The only time he was acting the way you described him (in the recent Ennis run at least) was when a mob boss dug up and desecrated his family's graves. And even then, he still only killed bad people (albeit, in disturbingly large quantities...).

[W Herzog Zwei]

Trying to shoehorn something as complex, real and grey like Ennis' Punisher into the absolute morality of D&D alignments is not a productive endeavor.

[Zencao]

Trying to shoehorn something as complex, real and grey like Ennis' Punisher into the absolute morality of D&D alignments is not a productive endeavor.

But it sure is fun!

[Blue Paladin]

Trying to shoehorn something as complex, real and grey like Ennis' Punisher into the absolute morality of D&D alignments is not a productive endeavor.Actually this is exactly my point. A paladin must operate within a very rigid and codified structure of Good (with a capital G). Because the Punisher does not "shoehorn" into that structure, he cannot be a paladin.


So the Paladin who clears out a dungeon is guaranteed to fall?Depends on what you mean by "clears out".

He is raiding a creature's home and brutally slaughtering everything.Under this definition, yes. He falls. Murder is evil, and theft in unlawful.

Ten Commandments (Judaic): Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal.
Seven Deadly Sins (Christian): Wrath & Greed.
Hudud (Islamic): transgression against God for Theft.
Qisas (Islamic): right of retribution for Murder.
Five Evils (Hindu): Rage & Greed.
Eight Precepts (Buddhist): Abstain from taking life; abstain from taking what is not given.
Five Evils (Sikh): Anger & Greed.
Mahu Vrat/Anu Vrat (Jain): Vows of non-violence, non-stealing.
仁 Ren (Confucian): "What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others".
怨み Urami (Shinto): Grudge for taking something from another without showing the proper respect (the most extreme of which is the taking of another's life)
三寶 [慈,儉] (Tao): Compassion, Moderation.

This should not be a foreign concept to, well, anyone.

The Paladin who kills the Goblins that are preying on a farming community is destined to fall?Possibly. He is punishing those who are threatening the innocent, and a certain level of violence is expected (if not required; the Paladin always has the option to inflict nonlethal damage). If he ever gets to the point where enjoying the slaughter becomes the primary motivation over defending the innocent, he becomes a prime candidate for falling.

He is obviously killing a family of Gobbos, even if the GM doesn't explicitly point out that one of the goblins was smaller than the others.Again, it depends if the family of goblins was acting in an Evil manner or not.

You've been on these boards for a while now; you should know how Paladin Threads go.

[Zencao]

How is stealing unlawful? Law doesn't mean government law, it means structure and code and reason.

I'm reminded of the lawful neutral gentleman thief at this point :s

[Gundato]

Actually this is exactly my point. A paladin must operate within a very rigid and codified structure of Good (with a capital G). Because the Punisher does not "shoehorn" into that structure, he cannot be a paladin.
Okay. What does Frank do that doesn't count as Good? Sure he may be a bit more brutal in his methods, but I again cite all the Paladins who cleave foes or leave them at negative hitpoints (suffering).


Depends on what you mean by "clears out".
Under this definition, yes. He falls. Murder is evil, and theft in unlawful.
So, by your logic, no Paladin can be a part of a party that actually explores dungeons and what not.

Possibly. He is punishing those who are threatening the innocent, and a certain level of violence is expected (if not required; the Paladin always has the option to inflict nonlethal damage).
Bolds added to make a point :p

If he ever gets to the point where enjoying the slaughter becomes the primary motivation over defending the innocent, he becomes a prime candidate for falling.
Which is why Frank is injured so very often. He almost let the Mongolian kill him because he was afraid of scaring the girl he had infiltrated the nuclear missile silo to rescue. One of his most gruesome adventures to date was when he was trying to break up a sex-slavery ring. Frank doesn't kill for the sake of killing, he kills because he honestly believes it will make the world just a bit better of a place. Even when he was in a berserker rage (again, the desecration of his family's remains) he only took out the criminals. Sure his standards may have been a bit lower, but it is the difference between killing an NE and a CE foe.

Again, it depends if the family of goblins was acting in an Evil manner or not.
Would selling drugs, raping people, and/or extorting money count as "acting in an Evil manner"?


You've been on these boards for a while now; you should know how Paladin Threads go.
That I do. But that doesn't stop me (or you it seems) from partaking in them.

Honestly, I think calling The Punisher a paladin is a bit of a stretch. But not because he may or may not qualify, but instead just because of the fact that he only really fits the essence of the class, not the traditional portrayal of it.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Can't we call him a Paladin/Greyguard (Complete Scoundrel, I believe)and call it a day?

[FoE]

D20 Modern comes to the rescue! He has an equal mix of Tough Hero and Fast Hero. And there is no alignment in d20 Modern, just allegiances. (His would be justice.)

[W Herzog Zwei]

. Frank doesn't kill for the sake of killing, he kills because he honestly believes it will make the world just a bit better of a place.

I have to slightly disagree. There's a strong undecurrent in Ennis' stories that the killer was always in Frank (especially in the Born mini) and the world was lucky that the tragedy that struck the Castle family happened to push him on the road to become the Punisher. But at the end of the day, it's about the kills, his code of honor is what keeps what is left of his humanity intact and thus he clings on to it as it's the last defence against becoming a monster.

[Devin]

You know guys, that thing I said up there about alignment was a joke.

[FoE]

You know guys, that thing I said up there about alignment was a joke.

SARCASM DOES NOT TRANSLATE WELL ON THE INTERNET!

[Gundato]

I have to slightly disagree. There's a strong undecurrent in Ennis' stories that the killer was always in Frank (especially in the Born mini) and the world was lucky that the tragedy that struck the Castle family happened to push him on the road to become the Punisher. But at the end of the day, it's about the kills, his code of honor is what keeps what is left of his humanity intact and thus he clings on to it as it's the last defence against becoming a monster.

Judging by the average D20 world, I think most people are serial killers at heart. So, if we simplify to D&D terms, Frank was going to kill stuff either way. He just happened to have gained a cause and became a Paladin, rather than a Fighter or Barbarian.

[Devin]

SARCASM DOES NOT TRANSLATE WELL ON THE INTERNET!

You're very welcoming and friendly.

[Turcano]

Wait. What? How can these two sentences:
ever make sense together!?

More to the point, how does the first sentence make sense at all?