Dealing with player phobias

[quiet1mi]

In my group i have an unique problem....

My players develop gaming phobias...or they're learning i am not sure so here is an example..

for example:
they go tricked into huddling around this letter because they did not know what it said [it was in dwarven, and most were elves] and they convinced the dwarven fighter to read the letter.It was booby trapped with an Explosive rune spell... Now [in another campaign] they have some one [usually an Npc] read their letters and mail while casting comprehend languages to see if it was trapped and "wasting" detect magic on sheets of paper with writing on them.

am I being too critical of them... or do I need to tone down the subtle threats so that they become less paranoid...

[Jayngfet]

make a letter explode if read by npc's

or make it talk.

[bigbang99211]

Have letters occasionally turn into magic items, which the reader NPCs keep for themselves. Eventually the players will start reading their own letters again.

Which is when you explosive runes them a second time.

[Ralfarius]

I second the 'make something exceptionally good happen to the NPC' for tempting players back into having their characters act a little less like paranoid goofballs. Well, either that or make them more resentful.

[Thane of Fife]

Eh, they're living an unbelievably dangerous life. Being paranoid is good for 'em. Unless they absolutely need to be the ones who read the paper, I don't think this will be much of a problem.

If it is, then start taunting them. "What, are the big brave adventurers afraid of a little piece of paper?" Also, remind them that using hapless NPCs as cannon fodder isn't Good behavior.

But players will have their fears - in my campaign, they won't come to a party unarmed, as they know there's like a 75% chance that they'll be attacked.

[Vortling]

Gee, you screwed your players and now they're acting accordingly. Who would have thought that would happen? :smallamused: Negative reinforcement is remembered so much more than positive reinforcement. You're going to need to have letters not explode in their faces for a long time before they stop behaving that way. I'd stay away from the "turn letters into magic items" route unless you want them to develop the habit of killing or intimidating NPCs for the magic items after they've read the letters. It won't stop them from having NPCs read the letters, after all they'll probably think you're trying to trick them into getting another face full of explosive runes and let the NPCs take the risk while they take the rewards. It's simply the logical course of action if your DM is screwing with you like that.

[hylian chozo]

I recommend giving them a treasure map. If they make an NPC read it, have him run away and leave them without a plot hook.

If you're feel like it, the party can run into him again; After it's revealed that he's rich now, of course.

[quiet1mi]

I also had a player attacked by a vampire that was wearing nothing but rags....
now he runs from any begger he sees or throws holy water in their face.

his greatest fear [he also was in the group that got screwed by the letter] is a begger trying to give him a letter.

[OverWilliam]

Sounds to me like you screwed 'em over a little worse than you're admitting, hmm? :smallamused:

[nargbop]

Paranoia is a healthy state of mind for mercenaries. Perhaps your players don't go around killing things and people for money, but most of the characters I've seen need to keep their wits about them.:smallbiggrin:
Now, as a counter to this particular situation, say to your group : Scrolls of Detect Magic are 12 gold. Buy up a bunch, or just take the Explosive Runes damage, you sissies. Get a stone table or something for your letter-reading. Or maybe a telescope for reading letters across the room.

Now, REAL phobias are more fun. Afraid of your reflection in a city of brass and silver? Fun. Afraid that you're being subtly controlled by a far-away wizard of unimaginable power? Fun. Afraid of your real identity being discovered by the rest of the group? Fun Fun FUn.

[Jack_Simth]

In my group i have an unique problem....

My players develop gaming phobias...or they're learning i am not sure so here is an example..

for example:
they go tricked into huddling around this letter because they did not know what it said [it was in dwarven, and most were elves] and they convinced the dwarven fighter to read the letter.It was booby trapped with an Explosive rune spell... Now [in another campaign] they have some one [usually an Npc] read their letters and mail while casting comprehend languages to see if it was trapped and "wasting" detect magic on sheets of paper with writing on them.

am I being too critical of them... or do I need to tone down the subtle threats so that they become less paranoid...
Short answer?

They're responding realistically. After something blew up in their faces (literally!) they're taking pains to avoid the same thing happening later.

Mind you, a Rogue can deal with Explosive Runes just like any other spell trap, so that's the route they probably *should* be taking....

[LibraryOgre]

Have a letter blow up on an NPC. Let it get around that the players use NPCs as Polish Mine Detectors for their dangerous tasks. Have people start demanding money for these things.

Their paranoia is somewhat justified. However, other people aren't going to let them get away with it indefinitely.

[Moff Chumley]

Um, tell your players they're sissies. Because they are.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Look at this from a player's perspective. "You open the letter, and it explodes. You take 20 damage, and all of you take 10. You stand there, singed, hurting, and covered in your own blood."

Their response is almost what I'd do IRL. Letter nearly killed me? All letters are opened with a knife and a ten-foot pole, and read through binoculars. IT EXPLODED. They have a reason to be paranoid.

[UglyPanda]

Worst case scenario solutions:
Have an NPC mail the PCs instructions on how to get their next reward. When their hired NPC reads the letter for them, have him leave some stuff out and go to the pickup spot himself. The NPC ends up stealing half their reward for their last adventure. Wait for the inevitable anger.

Let one of the NPCs they send to read the letter be illiterate. In fact, have an entire village be illiterate, and have signs everywhere just to screw with their heads. Make half the signs useful directions, while the other half are posters promoting reading to children.

Get a new player and don't let the other players convince him to do anything paranoid. Make sure his innocuous actions are indeed harmless. Make sure he laughs at how stupid the other players are being over little meaningless things. Repeat.

[The New Bruceski]

Look at this from a player's perspective. "You open the letter, and it explodes. You take 20 damage, and all of you take 10. You stand there, singed, hurting, and covered in your own blood."

Their response is almost what I'd do IRL. Letter nearly killed me? All letters are opened with a knife and a ten-foot pole, and read through binoculars. IT EXPLODED. They have a reason to be paranoid.

Real world analogy: anthrax in letters. Lots of paranoia? Sure, but that's because some idiots were screwed up enough to try it in the first place. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.

[Cuddly]

I recommend giving them a treasure map. If they make an NPC read it, have him run away and leave them without a plot hook.

If you're feel like it, the party can run into him again; After it's revealed that he's rich now, of course.

Heh, map related story:
In an old 2ed game, the party map maker suddenly keeled over dead, without warning, in a dungeon crawl. One minute he was busily scratching away at the map, and the next he was as cold and stiff as the flagstones he collapsed on.

Course, the party's like "wtf?" and goes to get his map. Then that character falls down dead. More than half the party died looking at that map before one character gets the idea to hold the map up to the light and look through it, backwards. It was a death rune.

Turns out the whole dungeon had been in the shape of a death rune, and by slowly tracing the steps of the dungeon and muttering the cryptic phrases found etched on walls, the cartographer had inadvertently scribed one.

[Miles Invictus]

Turn it into a subquest. Let them find out that other people have been receiving trapped letters, and allow them to pursue the leads. At the end, they track down the person responsible. This changes the context; the bomb wasn't a random or spiteful occurrence, it was a plot hook! More importantly, the players get to do something about it, instead of quietly suffer.

[Raum]

In my group i have an unique problem....

My players develop gaming phobias...or they're learning i am not sure so here is an example..

<snip>

am I being too critical of them... or do I need to tone down the subtle threats so that they become less paranoid...It's not as unique an issue as you think. As GM, you need to remember the players see the world through your descriptions. When your descriptions leave out information that ends up biting them, they'll get paranoid. You should expect it.

When it comes to traps in particular, I have a question for you to consider. What makes a trap interesting? It's not very interesting if it just goes off without being noticed beforehand. The players never had a chance to interact with it. It's just a hit point tax. As an alternative, what happens when a trap is noticed? It becomes interactive. The players figure out how to disarm and speculate about it's purpose. Why was the trap there? Is it protecting something? If they're paranoid enough, they'll start wondering why that trap was so easy to spot...

Check out Ars Ludi's comments on Bad Trap Syndrome. (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/91/bad-trap-syndrome-curing-the-bad-trap-blues/)

[Proven_Paradox]

The letter opened by an NPC business? Perfectly acceptable reaction, as several others have said. However, there should be consequences. I would recommend against one of the NPCs getting their loot, as that would simply make them angry at you. However, someone suggested having another one explode, and this is an idea I like. The NPC (possibly important, possibly just some person off the street, whatever) dies, and the consequences follow. Perhaps the PCs are now accused of the NPC's murder. Perhaps word gets out that people who hang with the PCs tend to die violent deaths. Either way, there are very negative consequences that don't seem outlandish and don't seem like obvious "the DM is annoyed with you" reactions.

The player running from beggars and splashing them with holy water? That's getting silly, though given the circumstances it's not outright unacceptable. Still, there are consequences. People see this person running from harmless beggars, and start to think s/he is insane. People treat him/her accordingly. Perhaps splashing holy water in someone's face is considered assault, and the player must face the legal consequences. That kind of thing not only gets your point across, but it helps make your world seem more real and less revolves-around-the-PCs-esqe.

[Gael_Judicium]

Heh, map related story:
In an old 2ed game, the party map maker suddenly keeled over dead, without warning, in a dungeon crawl. One minute he was busily scratching away at the map, and the next he was as cold and stiff as the flagstones he collapsed on.

Course, the party's like "wtf?" and goes to get his map. Then that character falls down dead. More than half the party died looking at that map before one character gets the idea to hold the map up to the light and look through it, backwards. It was a death rune.

Turns out the whole dungeon had been in the shape of a death rune, and by slowly tracing the steps of the dungeon and muttering the cryptic phrases found etched on walls, the cartographer had inadvertently scribed one.


<--Evil ideas......


Turn it into a subquest. Let them find out that other people have been receiving trapped letters, and allow them to pursue the leads. At the end, they track down the person responsible. This changes the context; the bomb wasn't a random or spiteful occurrence, it was a plot hook! More importantly, the players get to do something about it, instead of quietly suffer.

Best idea so far.

[Skaven]

Have a letter read by an NPC turn out to be a shortened tome of (stat) which the NPC gets the benefit of in front of them.

[skywalker]

Heh, map related story:
In an old 2ed game, the party map maker suddenly keeled over dead, without warning, in a dungeon crawl. One minute he was busily scratching away at the map, and the next he was as cold and stiff as the flagstones he collapsed on.

Course, the party's like "wtf?" and goes to get his map. Then that character falls down dead. More than half the party died looking at that map before one character gets the idea to hold the map up to the light and look through it, backwards. It was a death rune.

Turns out the whole dungeon had been in the shape of a death rune, and by slowly tracing the steps of the dungeon and muttering the cryptic phrases found etched on walls, the cartographer had inadvertently scribed one.

Best story EVER!

I second the advice that what they're doing is perfectly normal. What did you expect?

I vote against the "screw your players more" advice that has been given. Just make sure several letters in a row don't blow up on an NPC(or whoever). Unless you have been doing other untoward things to them, they will probably eventually decide to start reading themselves again eventually. At which point you should not immediately lace another note with explosive runes. Why is there so much DM-player antagonism?

I thought this might be about water. Are your players afraid of water?

[quiet1mi]

the player who throws holy water at beggers to make sure they are not vampires is afraid of 10ft streams....

he was a rouge 5/ thief acrobat 1 and had all the cool acrobatics stuff....
three critical failures later and he is drowning in a ten foot stream he should have been able to jump (he was running from a swashbuckling drow that would not roll bellow an 18 with his rapier no dm fiat involved), and drowning...

luckily his friends were able to save him by dragging him out and preforming an aid another. [a heal check would probably do the same thing but they would need to roll a higher number so in order to help them out i let it be aid another.]

[Avor]

There is such a thing as a justified phobia.

If you tap every single stone in tomb, checking for traps, your insane.

But if you do that in the tomb of horrors, then it's ok.

The worst is when players over compicate simple problems. For example, the players decide they want to sneak out of the small town, stealing some horse.

It took half the season. Argueing over every little detail, do they sneak out the window or back door? If they go out the window, do they the bed to block the door, and so on.

[Miles Invictus]

The worst is when players over compicate simple problems. For example, the players decide they want to sneak out of the small town, stealing some horse.

It took half the season. Argueing over every little detail, do they sneak out the window or back door? If they go out the window, do they the bed to block the door, and so on.

Part of being a DM is keeping the game moving (players can help, too). In that situation, I'd call for listen checks. If anyone passes, let 'em know that they hear footsteps; their endless arguing has attracted some unwanted attention, and they have two real-world minutes to declare actions. Then I'd step out for a quick drink.

[Attilargh]

three critical failures later
There are no critical failures in the skill system as written. Ædit: Let me rephrase that: "You cannot critically fail a skill check by the rules as written." Diplomacy as written fails critically hard.

I think your problem is a bunch of players who have taken a running gag for a marathon. Next time they do this, just say "guys, cut that out, not funny anymore".

Also, stop springing such absurd situations at them. Explosive runes on a letter they'll probably read? Justifiable, but not cool. Drowing in a puddle? Fairly realistic, probably quite hilarious and ultimately, not very cool either. If you don't cut them some slack, they will use all available means of protecting themselves. I should know, I'm personally very leery of sewers because there might be Troll Shadowdancers in 'em.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I also had a player attacked by a vampire that was wearing nothing but rags....
now he runs from any begger he sees or throws holy water in their face.

his greatest fear [he also was in the group that got screwed by the letter] is a begger trying to give him a letter.

Your players are either pre-teens or stupid.

If it's the latter, my condolences. If it's the former... er, still my condolences.

[Serpentine]

Turns out the whole dungeon had been in the shape of a death rune, and by slowly tracing the steps of the dungeon and muttering the cryptic phrases found etched on walls, the cartographer had inadvertently scribed one.That is so cool! Bloody mean, but...
SOOO COOOOL!
...
>plots<

[SoD]

Aye, I told my friends about this one, one was about to scream 'symbol of death doesn't work like that' before I mentioned 2e. But I am thinking about using something similar also...heh, heh, heh.

[Gensuru]

Regarding all those advices along the line of "punish your players for being paranoid". Don´t. Seriously if you want to get away without them hating you do NOT do anything even remotely close to that. I mean think about it: if they are paranoid enough to react to a trap like that what will their seemingly normal paranoia say if you keep punishing them no matter WHAT they do. Thinking paranoid the first impression that will pop up then is this: That son of a ***** is going to harm us anyways. He will not give us a chance because all he cares for is to make harm us without giving us any fair chance whatsoever. So in case you want to keep that group (and avoid broken bones depending on the type of people you are dealing with) do not make things worse by giving them a chance to think that you are simply trying to hit them just for the heck of it. Because the only paranoid way to fell safe from assaults like that is to get rid of the DM.

[Pienterekaak]

mmm this is nothing yet,
i goy my party as far as when i sad "you enter a room"
they asked:
"does it have a roof, a floor and 4 walls"....
:P but that was a little more humour than serious roleplaying..

But is it so bad that there being paranoid? your players seem to like it in some way (since they keep getting paranoid for more and more things). And thats what the game is all about right?

on a side note :P if you really want to get them for that, in the "DM pranks" topic here they suggested to over describe everything like:
you enter a room, the floor consits of black and white tiles, (in a certain pattern). etc etc.. they will get suspicious about every single room :P

good luck with it

[JMobius]

Tangent (because this is what I thought the thread was going to be about)

I like to abuse player's OOC phobias in game. This does seem kind of mean, I suppose, but I try to keep it to moderate levels and sparingly. In a culmination encounter for a story arc centered on a player who doesn't like snakes, facing one is a definite possibility. Descriptive prose is maintained to a degree to try to add a little bit of tension, but not worry the player too much. Is this still mean?

Incidentally, I recently discovered the Blackspawn Stalker in MM4. Essentially a spider-dragon, its close enough to a spider-snake that I know what to do if I ever want the entire party to stop making me GM. :P

[Bryn]

Try giving them some explosive rune'd letters, so that the precautions pay off. No, it won't make them less paranoid, but it will make them feel good that their elaborate defences paid off. Why is paranoia something to be discouraged, anyway? :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Paranoia games work well for horror settings but overdoing it might drive away the players. Not such a good thing.

[Waspinator]

Heh, map related story:
In an old 2ed game, the party map maker suddenly keeled over dead, without warning, in a dungeon crawl. One minute he was busily scratching away at the map, and the next he was as cold and stiff as the flagstones he collapsed on.

Course, the party's like "wtf?" and goes to get his map. Then that character falls down dead. More than half the party died looking at that map before one character gets the idea to hold the map up to the light and look through it, backwards. It was a death rune.

Turns out the whole dungeon had been in the shape of a death rune, and by slowly tracing the steps of the dungeon and muttering the cryptic phrases found etched on walls, the cartographer had inadvertently scribed one.
That is both very evil and very hilarious. I think I'd be pretty mad if a DM did that to me, though.

[Dannoth]

Let them waste their time ...

Or ... reverse phobia

Make the letters contents time sensitive. If they waste their time going back to town or putzing around with it they lose out on rewards.

[Tiki Snakes]

In my local gaming-circuit, there's an odd tendancy to see being an 'evil dm' as an odd badge of honor. I can really, really say that it can get a bit out of hand at times, frankly. It's good to be challenged, but when the whole party is taking 6d6 damage for checking their mail, (depending on how close they are clustered, without even a save?) or, for example, you lose all of your equipment (dropping a quite poor level 5 character down to the economic level of a badly off level 1 character) for going to the market alone, things may have gone a bid pear shaped somewhere.

It's worth making sure you haven't slipped into an adversarial attitude to your players. :)

But, still, if they are enjoying the paranoid atmosphere, maybe you don't need to change much at all? Do they relish the perversity of their challenges? Does the Beggeraphobic player enjoy the fact that his character was caught so off guard by a hobo vampire?

Etc.

[Riffington]

When players spend a lot of energy on an issue it's because they want more of it. So I second the "turn it into a plot hook... who keeps sending them explosive letters".

Also, the game Paranoia is awesome!
GM: "After waiting for an hour, your subway finally arrives at the station. The doors slide open."
J: "I step into the subway car."
GM: <tossing J a perversity point> "This is for bravery".

[Iudex Fatarum]

I think that the point of the first post if I am understanding is that the players are being paranoid about letters in a different campaign than the one they got burned in. I would take the players aside and ask them why their characters are so paranoid. I might (if it got bad enough) have the arcane caster make a spell craft check to see if he even knows explosive runes is a spell. If characters are paranoid about something that happened to them fine. If the players are paranoid about something that happened in another campaign then its bad role playing.