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View Full Version : ToB Cohort? Also, sub-question.



Deth Muncher
2008-05-04, 05:46 PM
So I just bought the ToB, despite I'm a caster-centric person, due to the fact I've heard of the epic cheese contained therein and 3.5 being on the way out. Now, I haven't had a good deal of time to peruse the book, but I HAVE decided that I think trying to get a cohort for my Lv.9 Sorceror would be insanely cool. And, actually, I'd have to wait until Lv. 10, so I can take a feat/ flaw to get a feat to get Leadership. In any event, which of the three ToB classes would be good for being my bodyguard? I'm currently a Lv.9 Sorceror with a Fire-Magic Shtick. (i.e. "Hm, a locked door...perhaps if I fireball...)

The sub-question: I, being the GREAT player I am, just found out Sorcerors can switch spells at even levels. [ Epic fail. =( ] Since I just found out, and also taking into account my DM has let people fix stupid mistakes on their guys, do you think when I hit level 10 I can fix...lets see...what's that...4 spells of 3rd or lower? Is that a fair request?

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-04, 06:05 PM
A)ToB isn't that cheesy. It allows melee to approach the level of casters, but even then they're pretty far behind.

B)If you want a gaurd, I would suggest a crusader with a reach weapon and the thickets of blade stance. Use his healing maneuvers to heal, and his white raven maneuvers to help the party.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 06:10 PM
However, if what you want is more of an assasin or a classical fightery meatshield, I'd recommend Swordsage and Warblade respectively.

And if you use the variant that treats 1's as -10's and 20's as 30's, DEFINETELY take a Swordsage.

As for the spell changes...spell list, please.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-04, 06:16 PM
As for the spell changes...spell list, please.


That I'll have to get back to you on. I left my sheet at the store that I play at. But just assume it's bad.


Edit: Actually, I know a few off the top of my head. In no particular order:
-Charm Person, True Strike, Fly, Fireball, Burst(?) of Flame (the cone version of fireball, it's a 4th level spell), Read/Detect Magic, Identify, Magic Missile, Incendiary Slime, Pro-Arrows, either Summon III or IV, the Acid cantrip (Splash?). That's all I've got just from memory.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 06:25 PM
Like, Blaster-bad?

Well, the answer's simple. Pick Battlefield control and debuff spells, that usually works.

For example, excellent spells at low levels are Grease, which helps the rogue, Color spray, which equals losing if you fail the save, and Sleep, which you then switch out later.

Level 2 spells could be, for example, Web. Or invisibility.

Level three spells have ONE must have, which should be swapped in pronto: Slow. It's an excellent save or suck.

But the big cheese comes once you get level four spells. There, you find the big cheese, spells which will be useful throughout your career. Specifically, Enervation, Black tentacles, and the wuvable solid fog.

For more, I'd PM a poster named Solo. He has his special sorcerer guide, which is very good.

Edit: Wow, it's not as bad as I thought.

Priority one: Get rid of any damage spells. They suck. If you want damage, get disintegrate and orbs.

Priority two: Wraithstrike is an excellent spell. Get it, it makes sure you hit.

Priority three: Get Shivering touch. It does 3d6 Dex damage, which more or less destroys anything that's not a roguelike.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-04, 06:38 PM
Like, Blaster-bad?

Well, the answer's simple. Pick Battlefield control and debuff spells, that usually works.

For example, excellent spells at low levels are Grease, which helps the rogue, Color spray, which equals losing if you fail the save, and Sleep, which you then switch out later.

Level 2 spells could be, for example, Web. Or invisibility.

Level three spells have ONE must have, which should be swapped in pronto: Slow. It's an excellent save or suck.

But the big cheese comes once you get level four spells. There, you find the big cheese, spells which will be useful throughout your career. Specifically, Enervation, Black tentacles, and the wuvable solid fog.

For more, I'd PM a poster named Solo. He has his special sorcerer guide, which is very good.

Edit: Wow, it's not as bad as I thought.

Priority one: Get rid of any damage spells. They suck. If you want damage, get disintegrate and orbs.

Priority two: Wraithstrike is an excellent spell. Get it, it makes sure you hit.

Priority three: Get Shivering touch. It does 3d6 Dex damage, which more or less destroys anything that's not a roguelike.

Heh, way to call it...I'm definately a blaster-caster. Although, that's a wee bit of roleplay as opposed to rollplay: My character happens to be a Pyromaniac (Best. Flaw. Ever) with Fiendish Heritage feats. Hence, "Oh, hm, fire just feels natural to me."

Also, Incendiary Slime, IMHO, is > than Grease, because it is, in fact, Grease, but flamable. Also, as of yet, I can't swap out my 4th level spells, few though they be, although be assured, when I get more spells, I'll be picking those up. I don't, however, get the importance of Wraithstrike and Solid Fog.

Oh, and Solo's Supertacular Splendiferous Sorceror Sguide thing. I believe I've looked at that, although not enough to get the alliteration down pat.

Chronos
2008-05-04, 06:40 PM
A)ToB isn't that cheesy. It allows melee to approach the level of casters, but even then they're pretty far behind.Eh, the Tome of Battle classes are casters. They're just casters who happen to hold swords while they cast their spells.

mithrandir86
2008-05-04, 06:41 PM
So I just bought the ToB, despite I'm a caster-centric person, due to the fact I've heard of the epic cheese contained therein and 3.5 being on the way out. Now, I haven't had a good deal of time to peruse the book, but I HAVE decided that I think trying to get a cohort for my Lv.9 Sorceror would be insanely cool. And, actually, I'd have to wait until Lv. 10, so I can take a feat/ flaw to get a feat to get Leadership. In any event, which of the three ToB classes would be good for being my bodyguard? I'm currently a Lv.9 Sorceror with a Fire-Magic Shtick. (i.e. "Hm, a locked door...perhaps if I fireball...)

The sub-question: I, being the GREAT player I am, just found out Sorcerors can switch spells at even levels. [ Epic fail. =( ] Since I just found out, and also taking into account my DM has let people fix stupid mistakes on their guys, do you think when I hit level 10 I can fix...lets see...what's that...4 spells of 3rd or lower? Is that a fair request?

The amount of cheese contained within ToB does not even come close to the cheesy things you can do with a Wizard. ToB makes the melee classes worthwhile at higher levels, because otherwise they're completely overshadowed in every encounter.

You really can't go wrong with a Warblade bodyguard. The options avalible to you are really quite interesting. And Warblades are fun to play and hard to screw up in their build. Sure, you can optimize the manuever choices, but even an unoptimized Warblade is awesome.

As for optimization of the companion, if you want a character that will not anyone hit you, I would suggest the following:

Human Warblade 6/Crusader 2. Str>Con>Dex>Int>Wis>Cha

Two feat routes, one with Combat Expertise (and thus Int 13) and one without.

1st: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Ironheart Aura (B), Stormguard Warrior. (Armed with a Guisarme)

2nd: Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Power Attack, Ironheart Aura (B), Stormguard Warrior. (Armed with a Glaive)

Key Warblade Manuevers/Stances: Emerald Razor, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades, Disarming Strike. Punishing Stance.

Key Crusader Manuevers/Stances: Foehammer, Battle Leader's Charge, Mountain Hammer, Crusader's Strike. Stances: Either Iron Guard's Glare or Martial Spirit, doesn't matter. ***THICKET OF BLADES STANCE****.

The real key is the synergy between Stormguard Warrior and Thicket of Blades stance. Stormguard Warrior is a tactical feat that, among its options, allows you to trade AoOs for +4 hit/damage per AoO given up on your attacks against that creature. Thicket of Blades generates AoOs very reliably.

In the event where you want him to block someone coming to get you, you can have him either use Stand Still or Improved Trip. Improved Trip is great because it allows him to do damage when he succeeds in the attempt, as well as the opportunity to do more damage when the guy gets up (either through an attack or through Stormguard Warrior). Stand Still is great because it works against things that are immune to trip.

As far as progression, I would suggest he takes another level of Crusader for the fantastic White Raven Tactics maneuver, then takes the Extra Granted Maneuver feat. Congratulations. You now get 2 rounds worth of actions every 3 rounds, provided you remain adjacent to him.

I would then advance him as a Warblade throughout, taking Robilar's Gambit at level 12, Defensive Sweep at 15. Bonus feat for Adaptive Style somewhere there.
*************


As for spells, I would suggest taking Haste (which works great with your cohort's Stormguard Warrior feat), Ray of Dizziness (SC) limit your enemies to either a move action or a standard action. Bonus: No save!), Halt (PHB2. Use an immediate action to make your foe make a Will Save or be unable to move during his turn.), and I guess you could leave the uninteresting yet visceral Fireball.

Swooper
2008-05-04, 06:44 PM
And if you use the variant that treats 1's as -10's and 20's as 30's, DEFINETELY take a Swordsage.
Ok, you got me. I'm curious. How is this variant better for a Swordsage than most people?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 06:48 PM
Personally, your list is plenty fine. The few changes I'd do would be this:

Everything fire but the slime and fireball go out. Replace with orbs.

Fly goes out. Wait 'till Overland Flight, or replace when you have it.

Identify goes out. Get Wind Wall, if it was level one, otherwise get something with more practical utility.

Similarly, arrow prot goes out. Wind Wall is it's better version.

The monster summons go out. Instead, I'd get a save or suck or battlefield control.

With that and taking debuffs and battlefield control, you'll be okay.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 06:51 PM
Ok, you got me. I'm curious. How is this variant better for a Swordsage than most people?

Baffling Defense. Up your Sense motive and now, they can't even hit on a twenty. Then, if anything makes it to the future rounds, use Setting Sun and Diamond Mind counters to throw attacks right back at 'em.

A Swordsage's defensive bane is the 5% autohit. With that removed, a properly built Swordsage is a better tank than a crusader.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-04, 06:52 PM
Personally, your list is plenty fine. The few changes I'd do would be this:

Everything fire but the slime and fireball go out. Replace with orbs.

Fly goes out. Wait 'till Overland Flight, or replace when you have it.

Identify goes out. Get Wind Wall, if it was level one, otherwise get something with more practical utility.

Similarly, arrow prot goes out. Wind Wall is it's better version.

The monster summons go out. Instead, I'd get a save or suck or battlefield control.

With that and taking debuffs and battlefield control, you'll be okay.


As I recall, Orbs are...what, 4th level? So I can't swap quite yet. And yeah, I'll swap Fly for OLF as soon as it becomes available. I think I'll definately drop Identify, since I've learned the glory that is 15 ranks in Spellcraft. And yeah, I can deal with losing the Summon, assuming it's 3rd, not 4th.

Oh! I remember I have Control Undead as well. Major reason: High probability of undead in current area of campaign.

Also. Should I pick up Dispel Magic?

RTGoodman
2008-05-04, 06:53 PM
Ok, you got me. I'm curious. How is this variant better for a Swordsage than most people?

I'd like to know that, also. Ninja-answered.



Anyway, as far as the ToB Cohort, there really are three ways to go, as others have said. If you're looking for a meathshield to make sure no one whacks you with a hunk of metal, Warblade is probably best.

If you want someone to boost your allies, block a little, do some damage, and heal a little, Crusader's for you (and I personally think it's the best route to go). Focus on White Raven and Devoted Spirit and you can get healing and battlefield coordination, and pick up the Stone Dragon stuff for various other damage and status effects when necessary. (Stone Dragon is the one that gets Bonecrusher and the Con damage strikes, right?)

If you want something that fits with your theme, you definitely need a Swordsage - they have access to a whole school of maneuvers that's based around fire (Desert Wind), and they have all sorts of other neat stuff they can do. Really, they're closer to Casters than Fighters. The only problem is that they're not really "bodyguard" material as far as I can tell.

Swooper
2008-05-04, 06:55 PM
Baffling Defense. Up your Sense motive and now, they can't even hit on a twenty. Then, if anything makes it to the future rounds, use Setting Sun and Diamond Mind counters to throw attacks right back at 'em.

A Swordsage's defensive bane is the 5% autohit. With that removed, a properly built Swordsage is a better tank than a crusader.
Ah, right. Thanks. I haven't studied the Swordsage-specific disciplines all that much.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-04, 06:58 PM
Lesser orbs are 1st level, orbs are 4th, but if your close, jsut wait for the regular orbs.

And definitely take dispel magic. There are other casters out there, and dispel magic lets you take their buffs out. If you must do damage, check out reaving dispel.

And Chronos, I was talking about power-wise, not mechanics-wise.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 07:00 PM
As I recall, Orbs are...what, 4th level? So I can't swap quite yet. And yeah, I'll swap Fly for OLF as soon as it becomes available. I think I'll definately drop Identify, since I've learned the glory that is 15 ranks in Spellcraft. And yeah, I can deal with losing the Summon, assuming it's 3rd, not 4th.

Oh! I remember I have Control Undead as well. Major reason: High probability of undead in current area of campaign.

Also. Should I pick up Dispel Magic?

There are lesser orbs, too.

Also, drop BOTH summons. You have a personal meatshield. You don't NEED a summon. If you REALLY want one, pick the planar ally line and use it for those specific times you need extra punch.

Control undead is okay. But Hide from Undead is much better and the Cleric's business. If your party rogue took Penetrating Strike, it simply beats anything else.

As for dispel magic, it depends. Does your divine caster have the chance of taking it? If so, let him or her do it. Divine CL boosts are far easier to find.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-04, 07:06 PM
There are lesser orbs, too.

Also, drop BOTH summons. You have a personal meatshield. You don't NEED a summon. If you REALLY want one, pick the planar ally line and use it for those specific times you need extra punch.

Control undead is okay. But Hide from Undead is much better and the Cleric's business. If your party rogue took Penetrating Strike, it simply beats anything else.

As for dispel magic, it depends. Does your divine caster have the chance of taking it? If so, let him or her do it. Divine CL boosts are far easier to find.

Oh, sorry, I believe I sowed some confusion there. I've only got one Summon, I just can't remember if it's III or IV. (Well, that's not counting the Summon V granted from one of the Fiend Heritage Feats I have, but that's devil-specific and doesn't count anyway.) As to the party rogue...I don't think he took Penetrating Strike. And as to Clerics getting it...Hm. I don't know if either of the party's clerics has access to Dispel Magic.

mithrandir86
2008-05-04, 07:07 PM
Baffling Defense. Up your Sense motive and now, they can't even hit on a twenty. Then, if anything makes it to the future rounds, use Setting Sun and Diamond Mind counters to throw attacks right back at 'em.

A Swordsage's defensive bane is the 5% autohit. With that removed, a properly built Swordsage is a better tank than a crusader.

Er, Baffling Defense only works on 1 attack, and to regain the maneuver it requires a full round action. Even with Adaptive Style and Moment of Alarcrity, that's only 1 attack every other round, and no boosts in the mean time (since you can't use an immediate action in the same round as a swift action).

Given this, you're still vulnerable for most attacks. Most creatures would just full attack and hit you on their iterative attacks. So no, a Crusader is still a better tank.

If you want a mean combo, a 15th level Crusader takes White Raven Hammer and Shield Counter, while an ally casts Ray of Dizziness. Congratulations, your BBEG with super-high saves is reduced a single move or standard action every 3 rounds. For one round, he is stunned. For another, he is hit with a shield counter and his single attack is ruined. A Crusader with Extra Granted Maneuver refreshes every 3 rounds.

The_Snark
2008-05-04, 07:11 PM
Also, Incendiary Slime, IMHO, is > than Grease, because it is, in fact, Grease, but flamable. Also, as of yet, I can't swap out my 4th level spells, few though they be, although be assured, when I get more spells, I'll be picking those up. I don't, however, get the importance of Wraithstrike and Solid Fog.

I'm not sure why AZ reccomended Wraithstrike, actually; it's a spectacular spell for gishes, but unless you plan on doing a lot of melee attacks (with weapons, not spells) it's not doing you any good. Solid Fog, however, is an excellent spell—people within it can't move more than 5 feet per round. They also can't fire ranged weapons, or even see out of it. Essentially, they're limited to lobbing area spells out of the area and hoping they hit for several rounds, while they slowly move out o the area. Of course, you're limited to the same thing, but firstly, you always have area spells (Fireball, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, whatever), whereas many enemies don't have any. And secondly, they haven't got a clue where you are, whereas you know they're within a 20-foot radius, which is coincidentally the same radius as many of the aforesaid area spells.

You can use it to take some enemies out of a fight (targeting groups of archers, for example) while you kill the rest, or to pin down one large enemy and hit it with area spells until it dies. Solid Fog is a very good spell; I'd say to take it before Enervate, which can wait until you're a little higher-level and can afford to use metamagic on it. Its older brothers, Acid Fog (same, plus damage every round) and Freezing Fog (Spell Compendium; a little damage every round, plus a Grease-like effect that makes moving through it even more difficult) are also good.

And I find that Dispel Magic is generally worth it, although if you're running short on spells known you can leave it to the divine caster for a while. Your party will like you if you take Haste, too.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 07:14 PM
Er, Baffling Defense only works on 1 attack, and to regain the maneuver it requires a full round action. Even with Adaptive Style and Moment of Alarcrity, that's only 1 attack every other round, and no boosts in the mean time (since you can't use an immediate action in the same round as a swift action).

Given this, you're still vulnerable for most attacks. Most creatures would just full attack and hit you on their iterative attacks. So no, a Crusader is still a better tank.

If you want a mean combo, a 15th level Crusader takes White Raven Hammer and Shield Counter, while an ally casts Ray of Dizziness. Congratulations, your BBEG with super-high saves is reduced a single move or standard action every 3 rounds. For one round, he is stunned. For another, he is hit with a shield counter and his single attack is ruined. A Crusader with Extra Granted Maneuver refreshes every 3 rounds.

Baffling defense is there to make you stay moving. Just move out of range and repeat. Essentially, you're unhittable.

And if the enemy can pounce, that's what fool's strike and it's ilk is for.

Snark: Because I'm thinking of the cohort. With it, use Reach spell cheese and the cohort is dishing touch attack hurt.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-04, 07:21 PM
Snark: Because I'm thinking of the cohort. With it, use Reach spell cheese and the cohort is dishing touch attack hurt.

Oh. Oh god. OW. That makes sense. And actually, I've got Rapid Metamagic as of now, so if I can get Reach Spell (which I'd forgotten about), I deal all kinds of hurt. Or, well, in this case, cool effects. (Side note, Maximized Reach Shocking Grasp = Emperor Palpetine = UNLIMITED POWAH!) Of course, this will mean I need to get 2 feats (Reach Spell and Leadership), which isn't undoable with the aid of FLAWS!: Everybody's favorite mechanic.

mithrandir86
2008-05-04, 07:38 PM
Baffling defense is there to make you stay moving. Just move out of range and repeat. Essentially, you're unhittable.

And if the enemy can pounce, that's what fool's strike and it's ilk is for.

Snark: Because I'm thinking of the cohort. With it, use Reach spell cheese and the cohort is dishing touch attack hurt.

Yeah, great. Without breaking your assumption, this character will most likely get completely ignored. Whereas a Crusader has real instruments at his disposal that make sure that people view him as a threat, and punishments if they don't target him. You move away on the second round - your enemy just shrugs and piles it on your Wizard.

But this assumption is misleading, and there are many variables that break it. Adding another creature would be the most basic. And a pounce - well, one immediate/swift action per round means that at best one attack will be countered. And then you run out of manuevers and have to refresh.

Whereas a Crusader has far more effective HP, Thicket of Blades, Defensive Rebuke, Diehard, Mettle.

Pumping your AC to very high levels doesn't make you a tank. For one, AC complements HP, it doesn't make it irrelevant - something is always going to hit you - whether its a boulder, a Polar Ray, etc. For another, unless you make yourself to be a threat, monsters will just walk past you and attack the actual threat.

Swordsage defensive maneuvers aren't to be laughed at, but they're not tanks, not by any stretch of the imagination and certainly not with a piddly houserule.

The_Snark
2008-05-04, 07:39 PM
Snark: Because I'm thinking of the cohort. With it, use Reach spell cheese and the cohort is dishing touch attack hurt.

That would make sense, except Wraithstrike has a range of personal. Reach Spell specifies touch-range spells. Unless your cohort is also your familiar or your special mount or something, how are you getting around that?

mithrandir86
2008-05-04, 07:48 PM
That would make sense, except Wraithstrike has a range of personal. Reach Spell specifies touch-range spells. Unless your cohort is also your familiar or your special mount or something, how are you getting around that?

You need an Eternal Wand of Wraithstrike, an Artificer (with persistent spell) and a couple characters with Use Magic Device. That's how you get the smelly cheese.

FinalJustice
2008-05-04, 07:55 PM
If you happen to have an artificer and want smelly cheese, have him make a permanent Wraithstrike item.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 07:56 PM
Yeah, great. Without breaking your assumption, this character will most likely get completely ignored. Whereas a Crusader has real instruments at his disposal that make sure that people view him as a threat, and punishments if they don't target him. You move away on the second round - your enemy just shrugs and piles it on your Wizard.

But this assumption is misleading, and there are many variables that break it. Adding another creature would be the most basic. And a pounce - well, one immediate/swift action per round means that at best one attack will be countered. And then you run out of manuevers and have to refresh.

Whereas a Crusader has far more effective HP, Thicket of Blades, Defensive Rebuke, Diehard, Mettle.

Pumping your AC to very high levels doesn't make you a tank. For one, AC complements HP, it doesn't make it irrelevant - something is always going to hit you - whether its a boulder, a Polar Ray, etc. For another, unless you make yourself to be a threat, monsters will just walk past you and attack the actual threat.

Swordsage defensive maneuvers aren't to be laughed at, but they're not tanks, not by any stretch of the imagination and certainly not with a piddly houserule.

You missed the point where I said "If you're using the variant that treats 1's as -10's and 20's as 30's...."

With that, AC is a perfect substitute of HP, except with spells and other no roll stuff. And guess what, Swordsages excel at pumping AC.

And of course, YOUR assumption ignores the whole Setting sun school. With it, I'm going to throw you, repeatedly, and wreck you up. Hell, just with Ballista throw and a move, I'm already out of reach unless you're a monster with pretty high speed. Tack on some Boots of Striding and springing, and I don't care who you are, you're not going to get close of my buds or me.

Meanwhile, the casters are filling you with Save or Dies. You lose, period.

Snark: Tippy had some kind of gimmick to make any spell reachable. Ask 'im.

mithrandir86
2008-05-04, 08:24 PM
You missed the point where I said "If you're using the variant that treats 1's as -10's and 20's as 30's...."

With that, AC is a perfect substitute of HP, except with spells and other no roll stuff. And guess what, Swordsages excel at pumping AC.

And of course, YOUR assumption ignores the whole Setting sun school. With it, I'm going to throw you, repeatedly, and wreck you up. Hell, just with Ballista throw and a move, I'm already out of reach unless you're a monster with pretty high speed. Tack on some Boots of Striding and springing, and I don't care who you are, you're not going to get close of my buds or me.

Meanwhile, the casters are filling you with Save or Dies. You lose, period.

Snark: Tippy had some kind of gimmick to make any spell reachable. Ask 'im.

No, I'm not. The Setting Sun school is great, for defending the Swordsage. The trip maneuvers are OK against creatures the same size as you (or if you have Improved Trip, 1 size larger). You still have to succeed at trip attacks - which gets nearly impossible as you level up. A normal Horse has anti-trip modifier of +11. You can't trip anything bigger than 1 size larger than you - that's a lot of creatures. Anything that you're throwing at higher levels is likely to be a caster type who doesn't care about the range you're establishing.

And Swordsages can't use the same maneuvers over and over again due to their refresh mechanic. You can't use Counters and Boosts in the same round, which cuts into their damage. It is plainly impossible to use a counter, move and refresh your maneuvers in the same round.

A Swordsage can get their ACs up pretty high, but a Crusader with an Animated Heavy Shield and Heavy armor makes up any difference. And at that point, the bonus provided by even a Sense motive of +35 becomes negligible at best.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 08:33 PM
Look at my post. Did I mention trips? No. Trips suck. I mentioned throws. A swordsage is a tremendous defensive character. Whatever you do, he's going to be there, dodging your blows and throwing you many feet back. You won't be attacking, and while this defensive swordsage keeps you at bay with his half-a-dozen throws, the rest of the party will have your ass. It simply works. One Adaptive style later, you can resume throwing. WITHOUT it, you still have five or six throws.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-04, 08:35 PM
and the wuvable solid fog.
What's lovable about solid fog? I've never known a more annoying spell to get in my way in all my barbarian-playing career. :smalltongue:

mithrandir86
2008-05-04, 08:40 PM
Look at my post. Did I mention trips? No. Trips suck. I mentioned throws. A swordsage is a tremendous defensive character. Whatever you do, he's going to be there, dodging your blows and throwing you many feet back. You won't be attacking, and while this defensive swordsage keeps you at bay with his half-a-dozen throws, the rest of the party will have your ass. It simply works. One Adaptive style later, you can resume throwing. WITHOUT it, you still have five or six throws.

I suggest you open your ToB to page 73.

I'll wait.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-04, 08:44 PM
Yes? Your point? Just get enlargers and the feat that gives you a bonus to trip. Problem solved. A Huge Swordsage will throw anything.

The_Snark
2008-05-04, 08:46 PM
Az, what he meant is that every single Setting Sun throw requires you to succeed on a trip attempt. About half of them (Tornado Throw, Soaring Throw, Mighty Throw) do let you use Dexterity instead of Strength, which can help you keep ahead of larger monsters, but the other half (Devastating Throw, Ballista Throw, Comet Throw) always rely on Strength, and your enemy gets to use Strength no matter what you pick. Given the strength and size of many higher-CR melee enemies... melee enemies at high level will be tough to trip.

Even at middle levels, there are a lot of larger creatures; looking at CR 7 in the monster manual, there are a lot of high-Strength monsters, a lot of quadrupedal monsters, and a lot of Large or larger monsters, most of which will have modifiers better than yours. Especially if you don't have Improved Trip.

And that's CR 7. Not terribly high-level, and at that point you only have 3 throws available.

This isn't to say that Setting Sun isn't nice, especially in a campaign with lots of humanoid enemies, but I, personally, would prefer a heavy-armor Devoted Spirit crusader with a spiked chain for my bodyguard-type guy. Maybe make him a goliath, give him Large and In Charge, or just use Stand Still.

Rutee
2008-05-04, 08:49 PM
The Anti-trip mods are based on the assumption that you are indeed Tripping. A GM can rule that you don't have to deal with the extra anti-trip, given that /you're not tripping/.

Also note that you often get bonuses to it above and beyond Ability Mod.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-05, 03:04 PM
Ok, so, after reviewing the thread multiple times, I think I'm gonna go with a Warblade bodyguard. I realize there's lots of ideas strewn throughout the thread here, and I think, to stick with schtick, I'll give him some decent Desert Wind thingies. Any suggestions for feats/manouvers/stances/weapons? And, I mean, I don't HAVE to completely stick with schtick (read: excessive fire), so some other schools are feasible.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 03:06 PM
Warblades do not get Desert Wind, that's Swordsages. Warblades get Iron heart, the "very martially guy, so very martially guy" school.

The_Snark
2008-05-05, 03:13 PM
It does say resolve it as you would a trip attempt, which I'd assume means using all the usual modifiers. Makes sense that big creatures and quadrupeds are harder to throw around, I think.

Desert Wind isn't one of the warblade schools, so you'd need to multiclass to Swordsage for a level to do that... which isn't that bad an idea, actually; make sure to wait until the last level you can to multiclass, so that you can take higher-level abilities. (If your cohort begins at level 7, for example, have him be a warblade 6/swordsage 1; that way, you have an IL of 4.)

Or just take Martial Study (burning blade), I guess, if you only want a little bit of fire stuff to reinforce the pyromania.

For warblades, schools are a matter of taste, really. Iron Heart is good, Diamond Mind is good, Tiger Claw is good if you use Two-weapon Fighting, White Raven is good. Stone Dragon is solid, but not as good as the rest.

Rutee
2008-05-05, 03:19 PM
It does say resolve it as you would a trip attempt, which I'd assume means using all the usual modifiers. Makes sense that big creatures and quadrupeds are harder to throw around, I think.

Big creatures, to an extent; The bonuses you get to your toss make up for those. But a quadruped, I don't /think/, should get any bonus. They're still losing footing (The problem with tripping a quadraped isn't that the individual legs are harder to kick out, just that there's 2 of them) and that still gives some momentum to use to lift them.

The_Snark
2008-05-05, 03:28 PM
It strikes me as harder to do, though. It's hard to judge with larger creatures, but if I imagine somebody throwing a person around, and then imagine him trying to do that with a wolf or a big husky dog (Medium size), it's a lot harder. Not impossible, but probably in line with a +4 bonus on the wolf's part. I freely admit that I don't have much any expertise with this, but I think martial arts throws generally involve unbalancing the target rather than simply picking them up or pushing them, and four-legged creatures just have a harder body shape to do that to.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-05, 03:38 PM
Warblades do not get Desert Wind, that's Swordsages. Warblades get Iron heart, the "very martially guy, so very martially guy" school.

Ah, see, this is why I post these things so's I dont's be's making's the mistakeses.

EDIT: @ The Snark - Actually, considering I'll probbably take the cohort at Level 10, that'd make my cohort...what, 9th level? So I could do it as Warblade8/Swordsage1?

Draz74
2008-05-05, 03:58 PM
Yes, but although your cohort will have a Swordsage Initiator Level of 5, he will still only have as many Desert Wind Maneuvers as a Level 1 Swordsage. (It's just that he can pick Desert Wind Maneuvers of 2nd and 3rd level, if he meets the prerequisites.) If you want more than that, you'll have to do more than one level of Swordsage.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-05, 04:09 PM
Yes, but although your cohort will have a Swordsage Initiator Level of 5, he will still only have as many Desert Wind Maneuvers as a Level 1 Swordsage. (It's just that he can pick Desert Wind Maneuvers of 2nd and 3rd level, if he meets the prerequisites.) If you want more than that, you'll have to do more than one level of Swordsage.

Oh, well, yes, but he levels up like I do, right? So all should be well. I'll just have him take levels of Swordsage until both of his classes are equal, then go one for one.

Eldariel
2008-05-05, 04:20 PM
It strikes me as harder to do, though. It's hard to judge with larger creatures, but if I imagine somebody throwing a person around, and then imagine him trying to do that with a wolf or a big husky dog (Medium size), it's a lot harder. Not impossible, but probably in line with a +4 bonus on the wolf's part. I freely admit that I don't have much any expertise with this, but I think martial arts throws generally involve unbalancing the target rather than simply picking them up or pushing them, and four-legged creatures just have a harder body shape to do that to.

I agree with this. Their center of balance is further behind and thus getting a proper hold on them to throw them is much harder. Of course, since the whole Setting Sun is based on the idea that the opponent does the throwing, you just help them along, I'm not sure this would really be that much of a hurdle for a throw of that kind. Anyways, they still have a better balance with 4 legs than 2, so I'd guess it's easier to stop yourself before the Swordsage gets a chance to detach you from ground.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:23 PM
Oh, well, yes, but he levels up like I do, right? So all should be well. I'll just have him take levels of Swordsage until both of his classes are equal, then go one for one.

He's two levels lower than you. Much beter to either go Full Warblade or Full swordsage. And be sure to pick up TWF, 'cause nothing says "PWND! Sucka!" like TWO burning blades.

Not to mention how sound anything with tiger claw is.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-05, 04:34 PM
He's two levels lower than you. Much beter to either go Full Warblade or Full swordsage. And be sure to pick up TWF, 'cause nothing says "PWND! Sucka!" like TWO burning blades.

Not to mention how sound anything with tiger claw is.

Is it two levels under? I always thought it was one level...

And you're probbably right. He should just be one class. My thing is I can't decide whether I want a cohort to add to my schtick, or a cohort to protect me in case I, oh, I don't know, run into a room full of Orcs and get mauled by rediculous amounts of arrows coming at me while I'm trying to Blast of Flame them. Not like that's ever happened, of course....:smallbiggrin:

Squash Monster
2008-05-05, 04:34 PM
A level 10 wizard looking for a ToB-enabled meat shield. If only there was a level 8 Crusader build that could block everything within reach from moving. Some sort of lockdown (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953434) you might say.

Can you get a Human Monk 2 / Crusader 6 cohort? Take the Decisive Strike substitution on the Monk (PH2) and the following feats.
1) Standstill (XPH)
1) Combat Reflexes
3) Deft Opportunist (CV)
6) Serpent Strike (ECS)

Have him use Decisive Strike + Stand Still all the time while staying in the Thicket of Blades stance. As long as he's standing next to you, nothing's touching you.

The_Snark
2008-05-05, 04:36 PM
Yep, he's two levels lower. And wouldn't you be getting the cohort at level 9? You don't get feats at level 10, normally...

And actually, I meant to just take the one level in swordsage, and then continue on with warblade if that's what you want. So long as he's human, there are no favored class difficulties, and it's better to have mostly one class with a smattering of the other if there's something you really want from it. Warblade X/swordsage 1 is generally about as good as Warblade X+1.

Keld Denar
2008-05-05, 04:38 PM
I'd actually encourage either a full crusader or a crusader/warblade blend. Crusaders are more self-sufficient due to Devoted Spirit strikes combined with Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike, and their recovery mechanic is far superior to a warblades. Having WRT come up every ~3 rounds to give you a free full round action is also amazing. Thicket of Blades as mentioned combined with Stand Still and a reach weapon will keep baddies out of your hair, something you really want as a caster. If you and your cohort take 5' steps away from the action each round, and your opponent CAN'T take 5' steps to follow, you keep a nice cushion of protection between you and the stuff that wants to hurt you. This is even better if you can facilitate some other medium of choke point to keep foes from reaching you while you burninate them from afar.

I think this would be a lot more resiliant than anything involving Swordsage.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:42 PM
Depends. If the swordsage is just stunning your ass or inflicting gross damage, he can be better.

It comes down to build, really. A pimped swordsage is almsot always better than a Crusader or Warblade, but the other have a MUCH easier power curve.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-05, 04:47 PM
@ Squash- Sorceror, sir, sorceror. But other than that, that sounds good. Excessively good. Not quite over nine thousand, but good.

@ Snark - Yeah...that'd be a problem. I was going to try to take a flaw to get leadership, but I don't think my DM is too keen on flaws. Well...any more. I'm already a Claustrophobic Pyromaniac. Your idea, however, also sounds deliciously good. I think I need to build some of these and test them.

@ Luss- Also good points. The one thing I dislike about crusaders, however, is their random power and randomly regenerated every three rounds dealio. Maybe I'm not looking at it quite right, but it seems to be almost a hinderance.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:52 PM
It IS a hindrance. While Extra granted maneuver helps, the crusey recovery is overrated. Warblade is much better, since you can choose the 'neuvers and refresh at will.

Keld Denar
2008-05-05, 04:53 PM
@ Luss- Also good points. The one thing I dislike about crusaders, however, is their random power and randomly regenerated every three rounds dealio. Maybe I'm not looking at it quite right, but it seems to be almost a hinderance.

Crusaders are actually (IMO) easier to manage than Warblades or Swordsages who have to "memorize" maneuvers each combat. With a Crusader, you pick the 5 or so you want to use, write them on index cards with a little note on what they do, and call it good. Every combat, draw 2-3 (Get Extra Granted Maneuver, its amazing) and play them. When you run out of cards to draw, shuffle everything back and draw 2-3 more. Repeat as often as needed. Easy peezy lemon squeezy. No planning, no fuss. Just pick em up, drop em down, shuffle, and repeat.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:57 PM
Yeha, and if you get those level 1 and 2 maneuvers you still had by mistake, you're screwed. No thankie.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-05, 05:04 PM
Crusader. Lots of HP, One of the best recovery mechanics, manuevers to heal, and access to thicket of blades.

Fighter2/Crusader#
Feats:
1) Extra Granted Manuever
3) Exotic Weapon Prof Spiked Chain
6) Combat Expertise
b)Improved Trip
b)Combat Reflexes

moving wall of opportunity. Combo him with classic control spells (Grease, Glitterdust, ect) and your golden.

Incidentally, a new combo of mine that has become very effective at low levels. If you have magic item compendium, purchase bracers of eldritch entanglement (I believe that is the name). 3 times per day cast a spell that deals damage, deal half damage and the creature is entangled. Use it with magic missiles 1 missile per person (Auto entangle).

Keld Denar
2008-05-05, 05:04 PM
Crusaders tend to have more maneuvers known than readied, and with their swapping mechanism can usually keep the lowest level maneuvers out of rotation (although some, like Dousing the Flames, are always useful!). Plus, with EGM, you start with 3 maneuvers, and draw 1 each round. Even if you use 1 every round, and 2 about every other round, you can usually put off one lower level maneuver you don't really want in favor of other high level maneuvers until your refresh pops, when you get 3 more. Practically (and I've played a mid level crusader) you never run out of maneuvers, and seldom run into a situation where you have to choose between bad and worse, provided you pick maneuvers decently, and that's not hard with only 3 disciplines to learn from.

Plus, Thicket + Standstill is crazy good for keeping foes at arms length.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-05, 06:22 PM
Okay, so we're right back to where we were before. I like this whole Thicket of Blades/Stand Still thing that keeps people away from me so I can safely "cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down." But I kinda want someone as a just in case thing so I can do things like "Quick! I need you to go help out X Party member. I'll be fine, go, be a beatstick tank person!" Although I assume a Crusader would do that...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-05, 06:25 PM
Okay, so we're right back to where we were before. I like this whole Thicket of Blades/Stand Still thing that keeps people away from me so I can safely "cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down." But I kinda want someone as a just in case thing so I can do things like "Quick! I need you to go help out X Party member. I'll be fine, go, be a beatstick tank person!" Although I assume a Crusader would do that...The Crusader can do that. He's not the best at it, but he can as well as any other full BAB, d10 HD, THF, PA character can. He's just as good n melee as a Fighter, he just has other abilities that make him better at lockdown.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-05, 06:36 PM
The Crusader can do that. He's not the best at it, but he can as well as any other full BAB, d10 HD, THF, PA character can. He's just as good n melee as a Fighter, he just has other abilities that make him better at lockdown.

I like lockdown. Lockdown means there aren't any, oh, Orc warriors or rust monsters or stray arrows to come eat me whilst I 'splode people to all Hades.

Squash Monster
2008-05-05, 07:15 PM
But I kinda want someone as a just in case thing so I can do things like "Quick! I need you to go help out X Party member. I'll be fine, go, be a beatstick tank person!" Although I assume a Crusader would do that...Two options. On is, with the build I gave, to replace Deft Opportunist with Travel Devotion. He loses +4 to hit (ouch) but now he can do his full round action to start tanking and still use his swift action to move into place. The other is to get Benign Transposition for your Sorcerer. If somebody is in trouble, just replace them with the Crusader.

You also should make sure you know Enlarge Person, as it makes the need for the Crusader to run around a lot smaller.

(It's wonderful what a pair of 1st level spells can do to increase the big stupid fighter's effectiveness)