Questions about Gods and the afterlife in D&D

[EBass]

I've never played P&P D&D. I've extensivly played computer RPGs that are based upon their rules though (NWN, BG, Fallout, KOTOR, etc etc etc) this gives me the basic knowledge to get almost all OOTS references, or at least be able to guess them from context. However in these games when you die, you have to re-load your game so the afterlife doesen't get much of a look at.

So I'm very confused to how the afterlife works.

I mean Roy is Lawful Good so he goes into this "Lawful Good" afterlife. It seems that whatever afterlife you go to is based upon how well you stick to your alignment. The creature in charge of Roy's admission to this afterlife states that she was considering "downgrading" him to the Neutral Good afterlife.

But I mean, woulden't the Guardians of the Neutral Good afterlife have something to say about that? "Hey this is Guardian one, how you guys doing in the Neutral Good afterlife. Yea we got a few that didn't make it so we're offloading them on to you, see you!" If your alignment is pre-set woulden't it make like NO sense to commit someone to an non aligned afterlife for eternity for a few indiscretions carried out in a life which is finite?

And what about Evil characters, are they "punished" for being evil or do they just go to the Evil afterlife where they can rape and pilliage all they want and thus being good or evil in life has no consequences regarding punishment in the afterlife.

Going on from this seeing that Lawful good characters can be "downgraded" for not being Lawful good enough, woulden't Chaotic Evil characters be "upgraded?"

Yea sorry you haven't been Chaotic Evil enough to get into our afterlife, infact you've actually been quite nice, so you go into the True Neutral Afterlife.

"Hey guys I've been put here cos I wasen't a complete bastard, but rest assured I am really evil at heart so now I'm gonna rape and pilliage my way through "your" afterlife.

Also, Gods. I mean we've seen earlier in the strip that simply believing in a Gods power is enough to give the Clerics of that God a measure of power whether the God actually exists or not. (See Banjos tiny lightling attack on Roy, or even if we just accept that was for comedy, Roy and Durkon seem to accept the premise that if Banjo gains followers he will gain power regardless of his actual existance.)

We've seen in SoD that enough believer's can raise a God out of the deceased essense of a previously conscious being. But did that being have to exist in the first place? I mean considering that the Dark ones soul as a mortal is probably quite seperate to his existance as a God is previous existance really a pre-requisite for becoming a God?

I guess what I'm asking is that if Banjo gains enough followers will he simply spring "into existance" as a God regardless of the fact that before he had any followers he was simply a concept in Elan's mind without a consciousness of his own. What would the personality of such a being be? Would it be related to the original concept Elan had, or would it be more akin to what the majority of his worshipers percieved him to be?

Very confused. Cheers.

[Gargor]

I think that it is not Necessarily a downgrade to be sent to a nuetral good afterlife, but the lawful good one simply is a stickler for being lawful.

Well from my knowledge of dnd Evil beings are supposed to be punished in the abyss or the nine hells, but i also believe that they are reborn as either a demon or a devil, depending on if they are lawful or chaotic, and if one gains sufficient power as a demon or devil then they would find themselves enjoying their supposed punishment.

As for the whole god belief question, yes i believe that something doesn't need to actally exist to become a god. If enough people believe in a person who never existed (s)he would become a god.

[Charles Phipps]

Here's basically a brief explanation.

1. The Angel is basically trying to send Roy where he's supposed to go. It's not a judgment but more pretty much determining what afterlife he's going to. Roy thinks he's Lawful Good (and is) so he's viewing it under that pretext. Likewise, the Angel is also Lawful Good so she's phrasing it in terms that could be described as condescending.

A Chaotic Good Angel would probably say "Sorry, Roy, I think you'd be happier in Lawful Good Heaven." rather than saying "We're upgrading you" or "You're boring! Get out of here!"

2. The Abyssal afterlife is a Chaotic Free for all in D&D. You get turned into a Demon there and how powerful of one is based pretty much on how much of a monster you were in life. You pretty much get to kick around all the people that are weaker than you as your afterlife. However, some guys (Orcus for example) are so incredibly evil, they actually get to become rulers of a layer.

Xykon and Belkar would find it far preferable to Heaven because it's an anarchy interrupted only by pockets of enslaved souls.

3. The whole "Can a person become a god just by being worshiped" varies by campaign setting but in general, yes, that's pretty much how it works. Banjo being a god is silly but it's the way the cosmology works in Eberron and Mage: The Ascension (non-D&D but that's how spiritality works there)

FYI---Most D&D games don't have "punishment" in Hell. It's just that Hell and the Abyss are really really really unpleasant by nature.

The only Evil People who get benefits are those who worship evil Gods. In D&D, the best Evil God to worship is Set, because he's about the only evil Deity who provides a paradise to his worshipers and encourages them not to kill each other off.

[TigerHunter]

You don't necessarily get punished in Hell. It's just a dangerous place ruled by people bigger, badder and meaner than you who like to beat on anyone weaker than them. Namely, you. So yeah, Belkar and Xykon would probably have a field day there.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Charles has a pretty good summary of the workings of the standard D&D afterlife.

As to the gods, there has never been any really standard workings to how becoming a god works. In fact, the more common settings tend to borrow a bit of every concept that's ever been used for gods coming into being. For instance, the Greyhawk setting has the likes of Vecna, who became a god in a manner similar to the Dark One. Then there is Zagyg, one-time lord mayor of Greyhawk City that attained godhood simply because Boccob convinced the other gods that Zagyg deserved it. (This was after he got the gods' attention by capturing and imprisoning nine different demigods—one of each alignment.)

When it comes down to it, becoming a god is a matter of "Whatever the heck the DM says is required."


So yeah, Belkar and Xykon would probably have a field day there.
Not at first. The new guys always start out low on the totem pole.

Though, they'd probably have the fastest series of promotions the Abyss has seen in a long time.

[Unguided]

I've never played P&P D&D. I've extensivly played computer RPGs that are based upon their rules though (NWN, BG, Fallout, KOTOR, etc etc etc) this gives me the basic knowledge to get almost all OOTS references, or at least be able to guess them from context. However in these games when you die, you have to re-load your game so the afterlife doesen't get much of a look at.
Fallout isn't D&D; if I recall correctly, it was an offshoot of GURPS. I'd recommend finding a copy of Planescape: Torment as it involves the D&D afterlives (or outer planes) to a good extent (it's primary location, Sigil, is/isn't at the center of the true neutral plane).


But I mean, woulden't the Guardians of the Neutral Good afterlife have something to say about that? "Hey this is Guardian one, how you guys doing in the Neutral Good afterlife. Yea we got a few that didn't make it so we're offloading them on to you, see you!" If your alignment is pre-set woulden't it make like NO sense to commit someone to an non aligned afterlife for eternity for a few indiscretions carried out in a life which is finite?This is quite commonplace, alignment can shift over time and it makes no sense to keep someone around in a plane that no longer matches their character.


Also, Gods. I mean we've seen earlier in the strip that simply believing in a Gods power is enough to give the Clerics of that God a measure of power whether the God actually exists or not. (See Banjos tiny lightling attack on Roy, or even if we just accept that was for comedy, Roy and Durkon seem to accept the premise that if Banjo gains followers he will gain power regardless of his actual existance.)

We've seen in SoD that enough believer's can raise a God out of the deceased essense of a previously conscious being. But did that being have to exist in the first place? I mean considering that the Dark ones soul as a mortal is probably quite seperate to his existance as a God is previous existance really a pre-requisite for becoming a God?

I guess what I'm asking is that if Banjo gains enough followers will he simply spring "into existance" as a God regardless of the fact that before he had any followers he was simply a concept in Elan's mind without a consciousness of his own. What would the personality of such a being be? Would it be related to the original concept Elan had, or would it be more akin to what the majority of his worshipers percieved him to be?
I refer to Ps:T again when I say very yes. One of the focal points of the game was about belief shaping reality; although I'm not sure if it would require shifting to an outer plane for this to happen.

It's a shame that they don't really have that much Planescape source material; Sigil alone would provide ample opportunities some really weird and complex campaigns.

[factotum]

There's plenty of Planescape source material, but it's all 2nd edition stuff--they changed the cosmology somewhat in 3rd edition and Planescape no longer fitted, so they never updated it.

[David Argall]

However in these games when you die, you have to re-load your game so the afterlife doesen't get much of a look at.
Properly it gets very little attention in D&D either. A number of the lower planes get some attention since you fight most everything you meet there, but the good planes are peaceful, and dull. So we pretty much say everything is great there and forget about them.



The creature in charge of Roy's admission to this afterlife states that she was considering "downgrading" him to the Neutral Good afterlife.

But I mean, woulden't the Guardians of the Neutral Good afterlife have something to say about that?
The heavens/hells are on a circle, which means the highest one is the one you are on. So our LG deva deems NG or LN both downgrades, and they consider LG a downgrade.

Quite possibly, if Roy had been rejected by LG, he would have been measured by NG, and found too lawful. Under official rules, there 17 afterlifes, and one is a heaven for LGG and he would go there. However, it looks like OOTS is using a pure 9 afterlife system, and we could envision him bouncing back and forth between LG and NG for as long as the joke was funny. He might end up founding such a heaven.


And what about Evil characters, are they "punished" for being evil or do they just go to the Evil afterlife where they can rape and pilliage all they want and thus being good or evil in life has no consequences regarding punishment in the afterlife.
As has been noted, they arrive as low monster on the totem pole and thus start out as the rapee and pilliagee. So it sure seems like punishment to the onlooker. However, these victims can, in theory, rise in power until they can give more than they get, so it's possible some of them think of the whole thing as reasonable.


Going on from this seeing that Lawful good characters can be "downgraded" for not being Lawful good enough, woulden't Chaotic Evil characters be "upgraded?"
No. They too regard their plane as the ideal one and it's a down grade to go to another.



is previous existance really a pre-requisite for becoming a God?
Probably not. As noted, the rules here are pretty much up to the whim of the DM. And a number of gods seem to be personalized parts of nature rather than a person ruling a part of nature.
For the most part, these are questions of little interest to adventurers. They merely need to know there are gods, who are durn powerful, and that if the adventurer is extremely lucky, he will become one some day.


I guess what I'm asking is that if Banjo gains enough followers will he simply spring "into existance" as a God regardless of the fact that before he had any followers he was simply a concept in Elan's mind without a consciousness of his own.
The answer is whatever is funny.

[hamishspence]

In FC2, Lawful evil souls underwent much torment, which cultimated in their effictively being "killed" and reincarnated as Lemures. so, that is the most notable exception to the view that Evil guys go to an "evil" paradise.

In Faerun, gods basically get their own planes and servants, and its not clear how much linkage there is between them and the Great Wheel. But this is for 3rd ed, in second ed divine domains were placed firmly on Great Wheel Planes. So, for example, petitioners of the evil gods might undergo some sort of reward for their evil deeds.

However, from the Players Guide to Faerun descriptions (and Manual of the Planes for the Great Wheel) being an evil petitioner is pretty unpleasant, much competion and losers treated very badly. So its not exactly Live Happily For All Eternity for evil souls, even if their served their evil deities well in life.

We haven't seen the Evil Afterlife in OOTS, so speculation about it based on core D&D should not be assumed to be correct. Roys Review is not typical D&D afterlife rules, so its possible that evil afterlife rules may differ from the norm as well.

[T-O-E]

Properly it gets very little attention in D&D either. A number of the lower planes get some attention since you fight most everything you meet there, but the good planes are peaceful, and dull. So we pretty much say everything is great there and forget about them.


Baldur's gate has a good reason for forcing you to reload when CHARNAME dies.

Spoiler if you plan on playing it.
You're the child of the ex-God Of Murder, Bhaal.

[MorkaisChosen]

Though, they'd probably have the fastest series of promotions the Abyss has seen in a long time.

And end up in charge by stealing the spines of all the demons?
[/8bittheatre]

[King of Nowhere]

I found that afterlife sistem to be the better karmik retribution for what you did in life: you stay in a place full of people who treat you exactly like you treat other people. An evil person is punished by his companions evil behaviour, while a good person is treated well by other souls. If you find the principle "do to other people what you wanted them to do to you" you'll be just fine

[Halvormerlinaky]

The evil afterlives probably aren't all fun and games as we'd think of it, but for evil people it would, eventually, be fun and games, paradise if you will.

Particularly in the Abyss, it's every man for himself. You torment those less powerful than you and suck up to the ones who are more powerful until you figure out how to get rid of them and take their place. So when you start out, life will totally suck and you'll hate every minute of it. But you'll also be thinking of all the ways you're going to punish the ones torturing you when you finally get a bit more power. The Belkster would love it there. His hatred and desire for revenge would keep him going until can finally start hurting other beings.

It's not how most people would want to spend eternity, but I can totally see evil people enjoying making others suffer, even if most of the time they're the ones suffering.