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View Full Version : Telekinesis - am I getting this right?



SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:11 AM
Okay, using Violent Thrust, you can throw (caster level) objects, doing weapon damage + spellcasting modifier on each? Assuming you're using Greatswords, a Large one weighs 16 pounds... So you're doing

(3d6+int) per caster level? Maximum 45d6+3(int)? Isn't that RIDICULOUS? Especially with the fact that you can get int to rather high levels... You do have to hit every time, but you're using your int, and a Chained Magic Weapon can add a whole bunch, and it's not like a single bungled roll will ruin everything?

You can also use Great Falchions, because you don't need to be proficient, for a 18-20 crit chance, and Chain (Keen Edge) to make them all 15-20/2...

Weird. Am I getting this wrong at all?

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:13 AM
It is not impressive.

But that's just me.

Cuddly
2008-05-05, 01:15 AM
Since telekinesis lasts concentration, can you keep it up all day, walking around and squinting your eyes?

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:15 AM
Wrong. That is ridiculous. Damage, contrary to popular belief, is a great way to kill someone. Save or dies are effective, but only so far as things don't have immunity and/or very good saves...

Note: There is basically no real cheese in our campaigns, very high powered, but nothing that makes anyone go "wtf". My problem with this one is that the spell itself does it, there's no weird combination that makes it good - so vetoing it would be odd.

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:16 AM
You could be a Jedi if you wanted, yes.


Wrong. That is ridiculous. Damage, contrary to popular belief, is a great way to kill someone.

Awww, he thinks he's a power gamer. That's adorable. So cute.


Save or dies are effective, but only so far as things don't have immunity and/or very good saves...
Ever hear of DR? Or Regeneration? Or AC?

tyckspoon
2008-05-05, 01:20 AM
You only get your spellcasting mod to hit, not to damage. And even with a good spellcasting stat you're still rolling against full AC with a half-BAB class, which is not a good recipe for reliably hitting. And you have to deal with acquiring and storing more than a dozen Large greatswords, which is going to take up most of a Bag of Holding all on their own.. and when you want to use them you have to get them all out of whatever they were stored in. It works, yes, but even inside of Core-only material it's more of a party trick than something you want to be doing as your primary attack.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:21 AM
Oooh I'm being belittled!

DR/adamantine is a good way to deal with this. DR/- too. Silver, Cold Iron, and Alignments are not at all good ways around it. I can't have everything they fight have tons of DR/adamantine and/or -.

Regeneration doesn't really help when you're unconscious. Yes, you could become immune to nonlethal damage, sure, but regeneration + nonlethal damage is rather cheesy.

AC? Sure, but if he's also going Master of the Unseen Hand, he's using his Caster Level + his Int. That's a lot of + hit. Like, a lot. AC can go up really high too, but this guy's hit is gonna be around the barbarians, plus doing like 4-6 times the amount of damage a round, PLUS the fact that there are ways for casters to get their + hit to ridiculous levels too...

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-05, 01:23 AM
Wrong. That is ridiculous. Damage, contrary to popular belief, is a great way to kill someone. Save or dies are effective, but only so far as things don't have immunity and/or very good saves...

Note: There is basically no real cheese in our campaigns, very high powered, but nothing that makes anyone go "wtf". My problem with this one is that the spell itself does it, there's no weird combination that makes it good - so vetoing it would be odd.

It's a mildly substantial amount of damage. Nothing great though. It also requires one to have 15 Great Swords available and hit on all 15 attacks.

quiet1mi
2008-05-05, 01:25 AM
can any lead me to the table of which all this damage is coming from....

needless to say, i look forward to hurting people with boxes filled with flask of alchemist fires and acid flask... not to mention the box itself hitting someone (that is what the table is for)

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:25 AM
The averages are still ridiculous - with the same +hit as a barbarian (which is rather easy), doing 4-6 times their damage if you hit on every swing as when they hit on every swing is you doing 4-6 their damage average. Sure, you can miss, but so can they.

15 Greatswords is easy. Very easy.

Sure, this isn't Pun Pun, or even Sculpt Spell + Antimagic Field. I was checking if that was right, as it's far more damage than anyone should have access to so easily.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm

Is the spell.

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:27 AM
DR/adamantine is a good way to deal with this. DR/- too. Silver, Cold Iron, and Alignments are not at all good ways around it. I can't have everything they fight have tons of DR/adamantine and/or -.


Actually you could. A 4th level spell called Stoneskin works wonders.



Regeneration doesn't really help when you're unconscious. Yes, you could become immune to nonlethal damage, sure, but regeneration + nonlethal damage is rather cheesy.

Assuming you do enough damage to put the monster into unconsciousness. Which is debatable.


AC? Sure, but if he's also going Master of the Unseen Hand, he's using his Caster Level + his Int. That's a lot of + hit.

Master of the Unseen hand? The PrC that makes you give up 2 caster levels to levitate things better?

I'm quaking in my boots.


AC can go up really high too, but this guy's hit is gonna be around the barbarians, plus doing like 4-6 times the amount of damage a round, PLUS the fact that there are ways for casters to get their + hit to ridiculous levels too...

Congratulations, you are as effective as a melee class at dealing damage.

quiet1mi
2008-05-05, 01:28 AM
if this thread turns out the way I hope my players will get to add another phobia to their list---ghosts,primarily level 1 commoner ones.... hmm good way to get at that player who likes messing with everything...

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:28 AM
Sure, this isn't Pun Pun, or even Sculpt Spell + Antimagic Field. I was checking if that was right, as it's far more damage than anyone should have access to so easily.

Ok, let's call it a wrap. You got me. This is clearly some sort of joke on us. Well played, sir, well played.

quiet1mi
2008-05-05, 01:30 AM
ohh... whoops i was talking out loud instead of shooting down the idea of a spell being too powerful...

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:31 AM
Note: I have read your guide. You are a good writer, and your guide is rather good, if not kind of obvious - but I've read a relatively decent chunk of the internet, so I guess it's just that I've seen it all before.

Don't think of this as a full character - think of it as a standard action.

Oh, Master of the Unseen Hand does lose something like four caster levels - but anyone who goes by the mantra "never ever ever ever ever ever EVER lose caster levels!" clearly hasn't realized the kind of cool things you can get from giving them up! Anima Mage is my favorite example, really. Once you realize that sometimes, losing a caster level isn't the end of the world, you can have a lot more fun with characters.

Stoneskin can be Dispelled. Also, 150 damage gets eaten up rather fast. And not every bad guy is a caster, and some are too stupid to use potions.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:32 AM
Ok, let's call it a wrap. You got me. This is clearly some sort of joke on us. Well played, sir, well played.

Huh. Can't tell how sarcastic you are here. Oh well, I was one more argument away from saying "agree to disagree?" so this works for me.

Nighty night :P

quiet1mi
2008-05-05, 01:36 AM
alright i just looked up the spell level for telekinesis and i must say.... wow at level 9 for a wizard and 10 for a sorcerer that is an ok spell...

there is much better than potential hundreds of damage you can be doing to something of the course of turns at that level...

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:37 AM
Oh, Master of the Unseen Hand does lose something like four caster levels - but anyone who goes by the mantra "never ever ever ever ever ever EVER lose caster levels!" clearly hasn't realized the kind of cool things you can get from giving them up!
More spells are cooler than small abilities.

Heck, you could probably just research a spell to mimic the ability if you really wanted to...




Ok, now let's do some math.

The average damage at level 15, when the TK caps out, will be around 277 points of damage.

46d6+8*15 = 277.5

At level 15, this is not impressive. A ubercharging Barbarian deal more than that. (For details see one of the many Ubercharger builds)

This damage is calculated assuming that the target was not evading attack by means of magic, did not have DR, or anything to interfere with assigning hurt.

The TK thing is a trick that seems powerful, but really isn't. It's fun to pull off and will provide awesome intimidation for your foes and stuff, but the bottom line is that it isn't unbalanced assuming your party fighters are good at what they do.

Of course, if your entire party consists of monks, then it probably will seem vastly overpowered, but that's a different story.

quiet1mi
2008-05-05, 01:39 AM
there is no agree to disagree just two people who are tired of convincing the other of what the other refuses to be more true...

however i will say that this is one more spell that a wizard or sorcerer can use to potentially get rid of the roles of other party members...

and i will also agree that transmutation,like illusion is AWESOME in every way...

*throw the monks at the enemy

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-05, 01:40 AM
Note: I have read your guide. You are a good writer, and your guide is rather good, if not kind of obvious - but I've read a relatively decent chunk of the internet, so I guess it's just that I've seen it all before.

Don't think of this as a full character - think of it as a standard action.

Oh, Master of the Unseen Hand does lose something like four caster levels - but anyone who goes by the mantra "never ever ever ever ever ever EVER lose caster levels!" clearly hasn't realized the kind of cool things you can get from giving them up! Anima Mage is my favorite example, really. Once you realize that sometimes, losing a caster level isn't the end of the world, you can have a lot more fun with characters.

Stoneskin can be Dispelled. Also, 150 damage gets eaten up rather fast. And not every bad guy is a caster, and some are too stupid to use potions.

Thou Shalt Not Give Up Thine Caster Levels.

Especially not for something like MotUH. If it was for something like Incantatrix or Planar Shepard you would have a point. But not for MotUH.

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:42 AM
there is no agree to disagree just two people who are tired of convincing the other of what the other refuses to be more true...

however i will say that this is one more spell that a wizard or sorcerer can use to potentially get rid of the roles of other party members...

and i will also agree that transmutation,like illusion is AWESOME in every way...



....... what?


*throw the monks at the enemy

You have redeemed yourself in my eyes for finally finding a way to make a monk effective at dealing damage.

The_Snark
2008-05-05, 01:42 AM
Theoretically, this works. In practice...

-I'm going to assume that you're keeping these in a bag of holding? Because otherwise you're carrying 120 lbs of weaponry, and I don't think you can really physically carry that many large weapons. You're going to need to retrieve said bag of holding, and empty it. Calling that a round's worth of actions is somewhere between reasonable and generous. In fact—15 swords, each larger than 5 feet in length, all coming neatly out of the opening of a bag without a hitch, in a few seconds? Realistically, probably not going to happen.

-You don't get to add anything to the damage roll, unless you're a warmage or something (in which case you don't have this spell).

-It's a normal attack roll, not a touch attack. Let's assume we have somebody who's pumped Int, and is a grey elf with Int 30 (starting 18, +2 racial, +5 levels, +5 tome) and a headband of intellect. That's an attack bonus of +23. The lowest AC of any CR 20 creature that I noticed was 33. Most of them had an AC that was more around 35-40. Best-case scenario is that 50% of your attacks hit, and then...

-Damage reduction! Most enemies have it by the time you can hurl 15 greatswords. Generally, you won't be overcoming it. I guess you could carry two separate bags of holding, each with 15 silver/cold iron weapons, but really, that's sort of silly. Adamantine is way too expensive to use on this scale. Alignment-based DR is pretty impossible too, because Bless Weapon is a short-duration spell which can't be Chained unless you Reach it first. Even DR/magic is a stopper, unless you expend several feats, some spell slots, and some actions in order to remedy that.

-Should I mention that Large-sized cold iron exotic weapons should be rather hard to procure? Nobody's going to have those in a shop; you'd need them specially crafted. Going by the craft rules? Each of these is around 400 gp, so that'll take... eh, let's say you find an NPC with a +15 craft modifier... 8 weeks? Each?

-Chaining Magic Weapon is not really a very good option. For one thing, it's impossible, unless you apply Reach Spell first or have archmage levels. For another, it doesn't last all that long. Chaining Greater Magic Weapon is a better idea, but a Chained Reach Greater Magic Weapon is a 9th-level spell. A master of the unseen hand isn't going to be casting 9th-level spells, nor will he have archmage levels.

The thing here is that you're spending several feats, spell slots, going to a good portion of trouble in-game, taking actions, spending class levels, and maybe even giving up spellcaster levels in order to use this trick. It can be a good trick, but if you're using it like this (especially if the character is taking master of the unseen hand), it's clearly a major part of the character. It ought to be good.

It can be seriously hindered or crippled by high AC, damage reduction, or miss chance. If the enemy has none of those things, you should probably be asking yourself: Why was this a threat, again?

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:44 AM
Pounce + Leap Attack = silliness. Why would the Power Attack damage carry over to any of the other swings? Sure, RAW doesn't really have an input, but that Makes No Sense(TM).

Plus, the one thing meleers have is that they do a lot of damage. Give a caster the ability to do the same amount, without even using a spell, from 800 feet away?

Oh, so there's a decent problem - you can't do that. Teehee. Still, a HUNDRED feet away? Sure, if everything you do is PvP, that's not the biggest deal - but what if, as a DM, I want them to be able to fight something out of a MM?

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:48 AM
Pounce + Leap Attack = silliness. Why would the Power Attack damage carry over to any of the other swings?

You're swinging real hard. All the time.


Sure, RAW doesn't really have an input.

I think it does. PA applies to all your attacks, not just one.


but that Makes No Sense(TM)

You do realize that this thread is about a wizard using a spell to throw 15 large great swords at an enemy, right?

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:48 AM
The Snark - Align Weapon (Mass). You can chain GWM, it's a Close spell.

Storage is a seperate issue, my group is intelligent enough to think of something, no problem. I don't know what, I'd work it out if I was the player wanting to do this though. Thing about D&D is that you can set up basically anything. Brilliant Aura (Mass) makes them all touch attacks, though it's a high level spell.

This does not cost any feats at all. Making all those items? Fabricate.

You add your PSM to damage. There are tons of ways to add more to +hit.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:50 AM
Leap Attack is worded dumb. It should be on the first swing as you land. This isn't about "WHAT OTHER BAHROKEN THINGS CAN I DO TO MAKE THIS SEEM LESS STUPID!?", this is me saying ... this seems stupid. Your average CR20 has very little life, really. Avasculate + this'll take down basically anything.

tyckspoon
2008-05-05, 01:50 AM
Plus, the one thing meleers have is that they do a lot of damage. Give a caster the ability to do the same amount, without even using a spell, from 800 feet away?


Not sure what you mean by not using a spell. The Violent Thrust option expends the spell; you have to recast it to throw the weapon-stack again. It's the Duration: Instantaneous option mentioned in the statblock.


Chained Reach Greater Magic Weapon is a 9th-level spell.

Fortunately Greater Magic Weapon doesn't have to be Reached. It's still a 6th level slot to Chain, which is not a small sacrifice for a character who is possibly giving up spellcasting advancement to throw swords more effectively.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:52 AM
Read Master of the Unseen Hand.

By the by, it's only a small step to just Chain this to like... a bajillion pebbles, each dealing your int in damage. Rawr. A simple bag of dust becomes THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of damage, including tons of crits, and tons of 20/20/confirms.

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:54 AM
Read Master of the Unseen Hand.

By the by, it's only a small step to just Chain this to like... a bajillion pebbles, each dealing your int in damage. Rawr. A simple bag of dust becomes THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of damage, including tons of crits, and tons of 20/20/confirms.

TK caps out at 15 objects.

quiet1mi
2008-05-05, 01:55 AM
so every one is on the same page here is Telekinesis, straight from the srd.
Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: See text
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object); see text

You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.

Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.

Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:55 AM
TK caps out at 15 objects.

Hence the chaining of it. Most spells cap out at 1 target.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-05, 01:56 AM
Master of the Unseen Hand actually loses ALL of it's 5 levels. You still get to add your MotUH level to your caster level, but only for the purposes of casting Telekinesis. That's why it's a terrible class; if it had a full or even partial spell casting progression it might be worth taking.

I really do like the flavor, on the other hand. Is there a race that gets telekinesis at will as an SLA other than that pre-tanar'ri demon race?

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 01:58 AM
Yeah but the fifth level sucks so we skip that one :P

MotUH is underrated, it's kind of weirdly abusable.

The_Snark
2008-05-05, 02:01 AM
The Snark - Align Weapon (Mass). You can chain GWM, it's a Close spell.

Again, short-duration. Good catch on the GWM though, I'd been confusing it with Magic Vestment...


Storage is a seperate issue, my group is intelligent enough to think of something, no problem. I don't know what, I'd work it out if I was the player wanting to do this though. Thing about D&D is that you can set up basically anything. Brilliant Aura (Mass) makes them all touch attacks, though it's a high level spell.

It is, and short-duration. At this point, you're spending a lot of time to set this up.


This does not cost any feats at all. Making all those items? Fabricate.

The metamagic feats are what I was referring to, although it's less now that you don't need Reach Spell or archmage levels. Fabricate will work for wizards, who can spare the spell and can probably buff their Craft modifier enough; sorcerors are out of luck.

At this point, you're using 4 spells (Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Mass Align Weapon, and Brilliant Aura), of levels 6, 7, 3, and 7, one of which is very short-duration and one of which is of mediocre duration, from two different spell lists. Plus Fabricate, plus either skill points or skill-boosting items or spells, plus class levels, plus a metamagic feat (Chain Spell).

They're devoting a lot of effort to this. It seems like it ought to be working fairly well. I can't really see a feasible way to carry around all the weapons so that they're instantly accessible, though.

Honestly, there are far worse things a party that plans out this much could be doing. A simple Acid Fog, followed by blasting spells, is a lot more devastating to almost every monster in the MM, really...


Hence the chaining of it. Most spells cap out at 1 target.

You can only chain a spell if it specifies a single target. Depending on the DM ruling, Telekinesis either doesn't qualify at all, or only qualifies when you select a single primary target. At which point, you've managed to raise the maximum targets from 15 to 21. Eh.

Solo
2008-05-05, 02:03 AM
Hence the chaining of it. Most spells cap out at 1 target.

To use chain spell, the spell must affect one target.

So you take TK to affect one target, then it chains of to affect a maximum of 20 targets, if I read the feat rightly.

This means you TK 21 objects. Whup de do.

You use an 8th level spell slot as a level 20 wizard.

You deal (3d6+16)*21 damage, roughly. That's 26.5 damage per sword, which, by the way, is screwed over by DR, among other things. (The other things being Greater Blink, Displacement, etc, etc)

As a 20th level wizard, you can do more. Much more.



They're devoting a lot of effort to this.
Second. You can make the TK trick good if you tried hard enough, I'm sure, but that could be said about anything, and you'll probably be better off doign something else, like casting a SoX spell.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-05, 02:12 AM
Yep.

Thanks :D

lord_khaine
2008-05-05, 02:25 AM
when i was considering this trick with my last psion char, i came to the conclusion it works best as a trick in your home, where you can hang the swords on your wall as decoration, and then turn them on any would-be assasins.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-05, 06:48 AM
when i was considering this trick with my last psion char, i came to the conclusion it works best as a trick in your home, where you can hang the swords on your wall as decoration, and then turn them on any would-be assasins.

Hm, that would be a fun trick for a BBEG... he's spent the last few years enchanting every single piece of furniture in his house with Animate Object, then when the PCs come in, all of the furniture attacks. Swarm of Silverware, anyone?

Sure, it's far from the most powerful thing a BBEG could do, but it sounds like a memorable encounter :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 06:59 AM
Are the swords thrown like projectiles? 'Cause if so, Solid Fog negates the trick.

Like it does with anything melee related, heh.

Dhavaer
2008-05-05, 07:06 AM
Would a foe grappled by telekinesis be unable to move? If so, it could be a good way to lock down smaller opponents. How high can you get you Int by level 9, I wonder? Lesser tiefling + tantric + spellcasting prodigy gets you 30 before items.

mithrandir86
2008-05-05, 07:28 AM
Would a foe grappled by telekinesis be unable to move? If so, it could be a good way to lock down smaller opponents. How high can you get you Int by level 9, I wonder? Lesser tiefling + tantric + spellcasting prodigy gets you 30 before items.

You could use a sustained telekenisis to lift someone off the ground and spin them. They get a Will Save every round to resist the effect. It's not really grappling.

This a favorite tactic of mine against Frenzied Berzerkers with Mind Blank (a scary combination for everyone involved unless the FB has Iron Heart Surge). Just spin them around until their Frenzy wears off. I typically use that until I get Maze.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 07:41 AM
I saw mention of this on Char Op a few months ago, basically, up until level 10 you are a regular Wizard who carries around a bunch of swords. Then you start taking levels of MotUH. You gain no more spells, instead you get to throw around swords with an actual chance of hitting, that do about twice as much damage.

Of course DR kills you because:

Adamantium: Good luck
Cold Iron: Okay, unlike everyone else, you can get this one.
Silver: Not happening.
Alignment: Okay, now you are doing two rounds of set up for your "ultimate attack" meanwhile the Barbarian Charge Pounced three enemies.
Magic: You need to Chain a GMW, sad.

Congratulations, you finally got your attack off, and you spent two rounds and a 6th and 4th level spell. 6 being a level you can't even cast, so you probably used a rod. Maybe you had to dip into Align Weapon (Mass) whatever level that is.

A three round set up to do damage equivalent to a single charge from another character, and it's the best offense your character has.

All in all, a resounding Meh.

AmberVael
2008-05-05, 08:27 AM
I still maintain that the best use of Telekinesis is to toss a fullplate wearing (or otherwise heavy) melee combatant at the enemy.
"Sir, what are they launching at us?"
"rrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRAAAAARGGGH!"
*much slicing*
"Barbarians with greataxes!"

If timed well, said melee combatant will arrive in a time that gives them a full attack against their foe (which is good), as well as dealing said foe around 15d6 damage (meh) while only hurting your tossed character for 1d6 (which is amusing). You essentially give them a hurling charge move action of 150ft which deals extra damage and then allows them to full attack.
Sure, a save or suck spell might be better. But can it compare to the awesome of throwing fighters at someone?

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-05, 09:11 AM
Meh, the 3.0 version (http://nightmare.org/dnd/30srd/spellst.htm) was much more fun.

Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: See text
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/level) or instantaneous (see text)
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)(see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object) (see text)

The character moves objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide either a gentle, sustained force or a single short, violent thrust.

Sustained Force: A sustained force moves a creature or object weighing up to 25 pounds per caster level up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect against itself or against an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with SR.

This version of the spell lasts up to 1 round per caster level, but it ends if the character ceases concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or both. An object cannot be moved beyond the character's range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If the character ceases concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.

An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. The character might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks against a DC set by the DM.

Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be expended in a single round. The character can hurl one or more objects or creatures who are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet/level of all the objects. The character can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level.

The character must succeed at attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using the character's base attack bonus + the character's Intelligence modifier. Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds.

Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).


The difference was that the # of objects was uncapped and it was based on the weight and nothing else.

So a 20th level caster had 500 pounds to play with. Weapons just did damage, no bonus - however - if you note the weight of the 3.0 shuriken, it is 1/10th of a pound. So that's 5000 shurikens.

It's a bit pointless and very ridiculous, but there is a certain bit of hilarity in saying "I throw 5000 shurikens at it". Obviously you can do a lot more with it, or could anyway....

In conclusion: 3.0 TK = Hilarious/borderline awesome; 3.5 TK = meh

Talya
2008-05-05, 09:49 AM
Leap Attack is worded dumb.

You don't need to charge, leap attack, or anything like that to use power attack. Power attack is simply the ability to subtract X from your attack bonus, while adding X*2 to damage. You can do it on one attack, or all your attacks. You can power attack for a different amount on every attack, if you choose. (For instance, 10 points on attack one, 5 points on attack 2, and nothing on attack three.) Power attack is simply swinging your weapon harder at the expense of accuracy.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-05, 09:54 AM
You don't need to charge, leap attack, or anything like that to use power attack. Power attack is simply the ability to subtract X from your attack bonus, while adding X*2 to damage. You can do it on one attack, or all your attacks. You can power attack for a different amount on every attack, if you choose. (For instance, 10 points on attack one, 5 points on attack 2, and nothing on attack three.) Power attack is simply swinging your weapon harder at the expense of accuracy.

That is incorrect. You need to declare Power Attack first, before making any swings for the round. The penalties and bonus last until the start of your next turn. It applies to ALL attacks.

POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13.

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Solo
2008-05-05, 11:07 AM
I still maintain that the best use of Telekinesis is to toss a fullplate wearing (or otherwise heavy) melee combatant at the enemy.
"Sir, what are they launching at us?"
"rrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRAAAAARGGGH!"
*much slicing*
"Barbarians with greataxes!"

If timed well, said melee combatant will arrive in a time that gives them a full attack against their foe (which is good), as well as dealing said foe around 15d6 damage (meh) while only hurting your tossed character for 1d6 (which is amusing). You essentially give them a hurling charge move action of 150ft which deals extra damage and then allows them to full attack.
Sure, a save or suck spell might be better. But can it compare to the awesome of throwing fighters at someone?

Fighterdoken!

Waspinator
2008-05-05, 11:43 AM
Or "Fastball Special".

NobleSavage
2008-05-05, 02:06 PM
I played around with this for a while, had a halfling hauling around a cart of "lumber" or 15ish Gargantuan Javelins. Threw him together for a war themed game, so it wasn't terribly out of place. More for fun than optimization. My question is how does this work with SA? And, since the weapons are springing suddenly to life, not necessarily from the caster, does the target get DexDenied? Sure Errata speaks to this, but haven't been able to drag myself through this, as I've only recently come to play casters instead of full blown rogues.

Dhavaer
2008-05-05, 03:49 PM
You could use a sustained telekenisis to lift someone off the ground and spin them. They get a Will Save every round to resist the effect. It's not really grappling.

It is really grappling if you use it to grapple, though.


Combat Maneuver

Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip.

UserClone
2008-05-05, 04:30 PM
RE: Leap Attack - It seems to me given the wording of both the fluff "into one devastating attack" and the final sentence beginning with "this attack," that it is fairly obvious that you only get the additional damage to one(1) attack following your charge. I fail to see how the Lion Spirit Totem's (cheesy to begin with) Pounce ability would give you anything more than 1 attack with 3x PA to damage and, say 1 additional attack with x2 PA to damage, assuming a +6 BAB and a 2-handed weapon. Has there been no errata on this?

Irreverent Fool
2008-05-05, 04:46 PM
I did a similar thing with my sorcerer and a pile of cannonballs (sea combat). It certainly wasn't the most effective thing to do, but I think it wins the Awesome Contest. DM let me get way with it, but at some point not too long after, we stumbled across the little table that shows limits on how many dice any particular spell level/caster level can do (in the guidelines for making spells). I don't think it would be a stretch to apply this to telekinesis. We certainly didn't think so.

I think I missed that bit about the maximum number of objects being 15 though.

Collin152
2008-05-05, 05:19 PM
Fighterdoken!

Medoken!
That's youdoken to you.