How will 4e change PC prisons?

[Trog]

Okay I know I'm putting the cart waaaay ahead of the horse here but in the previous editions of DnD I always had difficulty with making a decent holding cell for PCs. Granted when you put PCs in a prison you kinda expect them to break out... but still. Specifically the thing I always found troublesome was clerics and mages and such. I always had to invent some ridiculous anti-magic holding cell or something like that.

The main reason for this is to put a bit more fear into being detained so the PCs take the city watch or other appropriate level agent of justice/villian-who-plans-to-hold-the-PCs more seriously.

So, first of all, does anyone have any good (plausible and has worked in practice) way to detain PCs as prisoners without artifact-level magics?

Second, how would you suspect that idea to change in 4th edition (given what info has been leaked so far)?

[Artanis]

I haven't tried to make a prison before, but one thing that WILL be different is that (in theory) stabby classes will be just as good as magic classes. That means that an NPC Fighter will actually be capable of guarding magic-using prisoners, rather than just being instakill fodder like they are now.

[Cross]

In 3.5 I tend to split characters up, tied up, hooded and gagged & without items (including spell components). When I ran my Epic campaign a few years ago though (big mistake overall, but the prison worked) I had the characters trapped in a crystal box suspended 200ft above the demonking's throne room. They therefore had to:
1)Break out of the crystal box without any items
2)Survive the fall...
3)...into a lake of magma
4)Fight off the harpies and dragons that inhabited the throne room.
Overblown, I know, but the basic idea is to make the cell the safest place they could be.

[MorkaisChosen]

Eschew Materials?

[Human Paragon 3]

The floor is a treadmill, preventing the PCs from taking a short or extended rest! With just their puny at will powers, they'll be totally at the mercy of their captors!

Maybe.

[Gerrtt]

If you're running a prison and not taking away caster's components/focii/spellbooks then you are simply asking for them to break out.

You wouldn't try to hold a locksmith in jail by letting him hang on to all his tools would you?

Literally, take everything from them but standard clothes.

I can't speak about 4E, however, but if you can use your at will magic abilities without some kind of focus or component then it seems there's little you can do without anti-magic fields.

[AKA_Bait]

Literally, take everything from them but standard clothes.

Yeah. Honestly, the few times I've put a PC in prison without the obvious intention of their escaping, it has been more like a torture chamber in the modern sense.

You smack them around with something that does level drain or a similar effect to drain their currently know spells and then you never let them sleep. A guard comes by and pokes them with a stick every 2 hours or so.

Also, feebleminding the casters works pretty well too. If they are found innocent they will have the enchantment broken, but so long as they are incarcerated...


I can't speak about 4E, however, but if you can use your at will magic abilities without some kind of focus or component then it seems there's little you can do without anti-magic fields.

Really too soon to know with 4e until we see what the PC's options are.

[MorkaisChosen]

Guards on watch with readied actions to KILL.

Not sure who I nicked that off. Apologies to whoever it is.

[Morty]

The answer is, chain them to the walls, tie casters' hands together as well as gag them, and let them have fun with that.
I don't really think 4ed is going to change something in that regard. The mechanics might change, but the spirit remains the same.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The answer is, chain them to the walls, tie casters' hands together as well as gag them, and let them have fun with that.
I don't really think 4ed is going to change something in that regard. The mechanics might change, but the spirit remains the same.

lol, it's a psion!

Whoops, disintegrated bonds.

[RTGoodman]

Well, as far as 4E goes, a lot of powers have some sort of implement required to use them. Strikers and Defenders have to hit stuff to use a lot of their powers, a lot of casters (Controllers, that is) have to have their rods, staves, orbs, wands, or whatever. The Leader powers probably do, too - I assume Clerics will need either weapons or holy symbols, and I believe the Warlord's stuff is mostly based on strikes (from what I remember). Just remove their implements, and their limited to stuff that doesn't require it, which isn't much. A Warlock's Eldritch Blast even requires a wand or rod or something like that, if I remember correctly.

So, as others said, just take their stuff and they'll be somewhat limited.

Of course, for caster in 3E, you just need to make sure they use up all their spells, capture them, and then never let them get a good enough sleep to prepare spells or renew spell slots. Hello, once-and-hour beat-down!

[monty]

The answer is, chain them to the walls, tie casters' hands together as well as gag them, and let them have fun with that.
I don't really think 4ed is going to change something in that regard. The mechanics might change, but the spirit remains the same.

Silent Spell. Dimension Door only has verbal components (and if you want to use a spell with somatic as well, add in Still Spell), and if they're a high level sorcerer, that should be more than enough to get out of there.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Any Wizard should have Dimension Door(maybe Silenced) prepared as soon as he hits that level. A Sorcerer should have it on his list. A Cleric can cast "Summon Holy Symbol and be out within a day if he isn't watched, and doesn't mind a lack of sleep. The Rogue should be hitting the DC of any lock you can make, and even tying him up should be impossible. The only one in trouble is the Fighter.

[AKA_Bait]

See, this is why all you need to do to keep in check spell casters is to feeblemind them for the duration of their stay at the Ritz Attica. No fuss, no muss. Have it done the day they are captiured and have the constables let them know that if they try to resist the spell (i.e. don't intentionally fail their save) then they will be immediatley executed for resisting arrest.

[Morty]

lol, it's a psion!

Whoops, disintegrated bonds.

Yet another reason why I don't use psionics.:smalltongue:


Silent Spell. Dimension Door only has verbal components (and if you want to use a spell with somatic as well, add in Still Spell), and if they're a high level sorcerer, that should be more than enough to get out of there.

As AKA_Bait mentioned, Feeblemind is nice for keeping high-level casters prisoner. It's reasonable that a wizard who works for the government will have one or two always prepared in case a high-level caster needs to be put down. After all, high-level characters deserve the attention of high-level law enforcement, don't they? And for all casters who aren't powerful enough to cast silenced and stilled spells tying up and gagging is enough.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yet another reason why I don't use psionics.:smalltongue:

An incarnate could make soulmelds appear to bust their way out ... ?

I'm digging myself into a hole here.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

See, this is why all you need to do to keep in check spell casters is to feeblemind them for the duration of their stay at the Ritz Attica. No fuss, no muss. Have it done the day they are captiured and have the constables let them know that if they try to resist the spell (i.e. don't intentionally fail their save) then they will be immediatley executed for resisting arrest.If I was a high-level caster who had that happen to me, I'd make it my priority to destroy that government. You are essentially saying that in order to prevent escape, you will melt my brain to the point where I am below average intelligence for several weeks. Ignoring the fact that is impossible to defend yourself against the charges at that point, IRL I would be suicidal after a day of that. I doubt any Wizard wouldn't dethrone the government that did that to them afterwords.

[Illiterate Scribe]

If I was a high-level caster who had that happen to me, I'd make it my priority to destroy that government. You are essentially saying that in order to prevent escape, you will melt my brain to the point where I am below average intelligence for several weeks. Ignoring the fact that is impossible to defend yourself against the charges at that point, IRL I would be suicidal after a day of that. I doubt any Wizard wouldn't dethrone the government that did that to them afterwords.

Exactly - the ethicality of it ... is somewhat questionable. Also, consider who is actually wielding the feeblemind spell in the first place ...

[Trog]

Hmm... So... gagged, feebleminded, naked, shacked with iron manacles to the ceiling above a pit filled with water and weight equivalent for their strength tied to their shackled ankles then? Would that work? Aside from the feebleminded thing it's pretty low tech. Can that spell be placed in a wand? :smallconfused:

[AKA_Bait]

If I was a high-level caster who had that happen to me, I'd make it my priority to destroy that government. You are essentially saying that in order to prevent escape, you will melt my brain to the point where I am below average intelligence for several weeks. Ignoring the fact that is impossible to defend yourself against the charges at that point, IRL I would be suicidal after a day of that. I doubt any Wizard wouldn't dethrone the government that did that to them afterwords.

You wouldn't be unable to defend yourself, you would be brought into wherever your inquest is taking place and an AMF would be put up for your testimony. The AMF would suppress your abilities and if you appeard to be casting anything the 15 crossbowmen trained on you and with a readied action to 'feather yon oaf' would turn you into a pincushion. You could state your case though.

Frankly, I would think that for a high level wizard, being in basically a stupor for the duration of your holding period would be preferable. I know I'd rather be entertained by 'oooh shiny' for a few weeks than go stir crazy in a cell that whole time. I doubt you would be suicidal because you aren't smart enough to realize you have lost anything mentally.

Also, not all wizards are chaotic egomaniacs who dismiss the rule of law when it applies to them. Many wizards, although perhaps annoyed by the need to take measures like that when dealing with criminals of their power level, would understand. They know what they are capable of. For the ones who would destroy the kingdom afterwards... they are probably guilty anyway and will end up being executed. :smallbiggrin:


Exactly - the ethicality of it ... is somewhat questionable. Also, consider who is actually wielding the feeblemind spell in the first place ...

Really? Explain to me how denying someone use of their mental faculties is any more or less ethically questionable than denying them use of their physical faculties (like by gagging them and chaining them up).


Can that spell be placed in a wand?

No, but you could probably make a magical item of it that allows use 3x a day. Call it Coif of the Imprisoned Mage or something.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Really? Explain to me how the ethicality of denying someone use of their mental faculties is any more or less ethically questionable than denying them use of their physical faculties (like by gagging them and chaining them up).

Forced, albeit temporary, lobotomy, is not exactly right. Also, by modern human rights standards, mental faculties would be ranked above physical ones.

[Artanis]

Hmm... So... gagged, feebleminded, naked, shacked with iron manacles to the ceiling above a pit filled with water and weight equivalent for their strength tied to their shackled ankles then? Would that work? Aside from the feebleminded thing it's pretty low tech. Can that spell be placed in a wand? :smallconfused:
I suggest that rather than a pit of water, you instead use a setup like this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html)


Edit: ...but still a pit. A pit with that instead of water.

[Ascension]

Forced, albeit temporary, lobotomy, is not exactly right. Also, by modern human rights standards, mental faculties would be ranked above physical ones.

This is D&D. "Modern human rights standards" don't really matter. Sure, I'd call feebleminding a caster in this manner an evil act, but unless the jailers are paladins they probably won't care.

[AKA_Bait]

Forced, albeit temporary, lobotomy, is not exactly right. Also, by modern human rights standards, mental faculties would be ranked above physical ones.

Neither of those is exactly an argument. Obviously, denying anyone any rights without trial etc. is wrong, but it is a necc. evil in society to detain and confine criminals for the time before such a trial can be conducted. Why is temporary lombotomy more wrong than temporary parapalegia (cuffing someone behind their back)?

Modern standards allow for demonstrably dangerous criminals to occasionally be kept sedated as well. Would a custom magical item that instead reduces your stregnth score to 0 or does a Stone to Flesh effect be better or worse? All are prisoner containment possibilties.

[Jasdoif]

A demiplane can make for more exotic security arrangements. For the utilitarian, a demiplane with the dead magic trait and static morphic trait. Casters can't cast, smashers can't smash. Hardly the most entertaining use of planar traits, but it could work.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Neither of those is exactly an argument. Obviously, denying anyone any rights without trial etc. is wrong, but it is a necc. evil in society to detain and confine criminals for the time Why is temporary lombotomy more wrong than temporary parapalegia (cuffing someone behind their back)?

Modern standards allow for demonstrably dangerous criminals to occasionally be kept sedated as well. Would a custom magical item that instead reduces your stregnth score to 0 or does a Stone to Flesh effect be better or worse? All are prisoner containment possibilties.

Sure, I'm aware that I'm arguing to authority, but nonetheless, it's ture.

Furthermore, by lobotomising someone, you can't rehabilitate them, since they aren't there. Dangerous criminals aren't kept permanently sedated, for example.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You wouldn't be unable to defend yourself, you would be brought into wherever your inquest is taking place and an AMF would be put up for your testimony. The AMF would suppress your abilities and if you appeard to be casting anything the 15 crossbowmen trained on you and with a readied action to 'feather yon oaf' would turn you into a pincushion. You could state your case though.With no preparation and no way of researching the evidence beforehand. Yeah, that's fair.
Also, not all wizards are chaotic egomaniacs who dismiss the rule of law when it applies to them. Many wizards, although perhaps annoyed by the need to take measures like that when dealing with criminals of their power level, would understand. They know what they are capable of. For the ones who would destroy the kingdom afterwards... they are probably guilty anyway and will end up being executed. These are people who rewrite the laws of physics on a regular basis, so egomaniacal is probably a bit justified. Realize, the king just shoved them in a tiny room for 3 weeks for a crime they didn't commit, and used magic to forcibly remove 90% of their mind for the duration. Especially for a Wizard, whose mind is the only thing that matters, that would probably seem a bit over the top. I could see any alignment objecting to that when it happens to them. Most people released from jail harbor resentment over their imprisonment, especially if they were innocent, and if you reduced them to a mental child for the duration, well, I could see them forming a resistance. Look at Roy, who is LG, after the trial. Now think about what V. would have done if he had been forced to act like Elan for the time he was in the cell. It's not a CN egomaniac thing, its human nature to be annoyed when someone turns your brain into tapioca pudding instead of taking another option, especially if you were innocent.
Really? Explain to me how the ethicality of denying someone use of their mental faculties is any more or less ethically questionable than denying them use of their physical faculties (like by gagging them and chaining them up).Are you seriously comparing tying someone up to reducing them to a drooling idiot? Consider which one would be more likely to require therapy afterwords.

Yes, it may be justified from a safety viewpoint, but ethically it is repugnant, and if someone did this as a method of imprisonment in a game I was DMing, I would mention to them they were straying towards LN, or maybe LE.

[HeroicSociopath]

I haven't tried to make a prison before, but one thing that WILL be different is that (in theory) stabby classes will be just as good as magic classes. That means that an NPC Fighter will actually be capable of guarding magic-using prisoners, rather than just being instakill fodder like they are now.
To be fair, I don't think magic would be omnimpetent if the badguys (and goodguys to an extent) acted smarter about magic.

Somatic, verbal, and matireal components.


Even if we cutout the matireal components in spells, (like I do, I find it to be taxing and petty..) Handcuffing a spellcaster or putting duct-tape around his mouth should pretty much null any spells he could effect you with.


Yeah, a fellow PC of mine learned the hard way when he tried to PK me and I managed one hit and the GM agreed to let me cut deep into his hand with my attack. Obviously not a lethal blow, but it hurt like hell, and he lost a few fingures, causing a vast percentile penalty to spellcasting.


My only problem with spellcasting is the economic idiocy. A scroll of poison generaly costs less then really good "natural" poison.

I know a scroll of magic is a bit more likely to comeback to haunt you then real poison but damn. :smallannoyed:


So I decreed that when you purchase poison, it's good for different amounts of times you lace it on a weapon or arrow or something, depending on how costly the poison. And each time you lace it it's good for one hit.


Obviously you're not going to use a vial of poison all at once. And different poisons are more potent, so they might require only a tad dip to be effective..



Another thing I don't like is diseases. I understand realisticaly diseases take a few days to really notice. But 1d3 days for a couple of dexterity damage? Oooooh, I'm so scared...



Stat damage is cool. It bassicaly saves you time from bringing down HP.
The rules revolving around it are not so cool.


And much like everybody else, wotc decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater and get rid of stat damage and save-or-dies as a whole. As if combat wasn't tedius enough..

[spite48]

In order to be halfway realistic the answer has to be something that a town of 10,000 people would have access to. Such a town would have to have ways of enforcing the laws against mid-powered scoundrels with reasonable reliability. That is to say, some but not all 10th level characters builds should be able to excape.

In the past, I have used various combinations of the following: (some have been mentioned already)


PCs must be physically restrained, securely enclosed and throughly unequipped.
Capable and attentive guards.
Sleep inducing or paralytic drugs for spellcasters
Geas spells
Magical containment (homebrew cursed regenerating shackles being my favorite)
The threat of death as the punishment for escaping lawful custody, should the player escape.
Motivated bounty hunters who will gladly collect a commission for a player on the lam.


Nothing can or should restrain a high level and resourceful party, however they should have to work for their freedom. Those last two psychological impediments to escape are by far the most effective.

[Avor]

Ring of negative intellitence/widom/charima

-10 to one stat, Int, Wis or Cha

This cursed magic ring was first forged from the bones "Durkerty, the retarded brass Dragon" by sypathetic elves, who were curous to as how Durkerty thought and lived with himself.

The first eager elf placed the ring around his finger. Within mere seconds he shat his pants, fell to the ground and started chewing on his own tounge.

Another elf, known as a great mage and thinker, put the ring on. He immedilaty forgot all the teachings of magic, lore, and history, reduced to no more than an innocnet child in a grown body.

This ring passed was around, wise elves toying with it, to enjoy moments of burdenless happiness, breaks between their great and complex magical research.

Eventualy a particular arrogant elf "gifted" it upon a group a adventures, containing a notably loud and drunk dwarf, even by dwarven standard.


It was centuries later, the ring of Durkerty lied in dust at the bottom of Castle keep. It was only discovered by the the Evil lord's son, who was also learning magic. The evil lord took his son's discovery to his wizards, and demand that they find the details of this magic, and see how they could use it.

The result, a ring that made spell casters so dumb, they could no longer cast even the most simple spells. A perfect tool to keep magic users imprissioned.



The Ring of Durkerty.



:P



Serously, some kindoms maintain the eqivilent of super max. Magic users are disabled and trasnported there. The jail, being built over a place where a great magical disaster happened, up in the mountians, acting as a field of anti-magic for milies.

[HeroicSociopath]

Actually aren't spellcasters suppose to need to make concentration checks in uncomfertable situations?

Hell, any decent facility would have atleast two guards at a time. They don't have to be glowing with magic armor and weapons, simple armor and a crossbow would suffice. If he sees a spellcaster attempting some sortof spell, depending on the npc, may give him a warning first, or shoot him with a crossbow. Pretty hard to do a spell when you're getting shot at.


The PCs may just have to use their noggins to get them out of this mess. The bad thing about prison scenarios is realistically there'd be no way for you to escape.

But sense this is a game, that's not exactly practical. Incompetent guards and shotty means of trapping you exist because it's a game, and you're suppose to escape.

For example, when Obi Wan used The Force on that stormtrooper in episode 4.

"You needn't see my iddentification..."

There were two stormtroopers, you mean to tell me both failed their will saves to suggestion?

More importantly.. didn't they think it was kind of weird how normally they're brutish and love harassing tourists but they just let that freaky oldman and what looked like the escaped droids go by without even checking his stuff?


The argument could be made in episode 4 Jedi were rare, so The Force is somewhat seen as a fairy tale, nothing the stromtroopers probably are going to know about. (Though it was only been twenty or thirty years. I mean my God.. cultures and history don't crumble that fast... :roll: )

But atleast that has a somewhat feesible reason. Now, if this campaign is highly magical, then the guards are going to be a bit more suspicious.

"Did that guy just use a spell on me to get me to do whatever he wanted?!"
"You sure he's not your wife?"
"Shutup Steve.."

[EvilElitest]

Um, cut their fingers off..


Really. In 4E with the anti death rules, they won't die, so you can simply break all of their bones, blind them and cut off their fingers. And then when they escape they can simply heal themselves
from
EE

[Inyssius Tor]

Having every two-bit lawman tote around a wand of feeblemind is a little too suspension-breaking, even in Eberron. Instead, have him carry a little pouch of striped toadstool. Or ground blue whinnis leaves. Or scrapings of id moss. Or bread soaked in oil of taggit. Or... whatever.

It doesn't even need to be one of those expensive assassin's-grade poisons--all of the ones listed are pretty high-end, since they need to be instantaneously effective in small doses, effective if inhaled or transmitted by injury, and probably also near-indetectable if ingested. Plants that give you a killer headache or a brain full of cotton don't need to be that expensive if they take effect over the next hour, are foul-tasting and -smelling, are only effective in larger doses, and may be resistible even then if someone doesn't knock you out with a big stick before force-feeding them to you.

[AKA_Bait]

Sure, I'm aware that I'm arguing to authority, but nonetheless, it's ture.

I actually don't agree that it's true, but we can leave that aside.


Furthermore, by lobotomising someone, you can't rehabilitate them, since they aren't there. Dangerous criminals aren't kept permanently sedated, for example.

No, the ones that are thought to be beyond rehabilitiation are frequently executed. However, you are right in that feebleminding someone permanently would be an innappropriate punishment for someone thought to be rehabilitatable. It would only be for holding purposes before trial.

Negative levels and various rehabilition programs would be appropriate as a punishment if convicted. Deny them their abilities until they can demonstrate that they can use them appropriatley.


With no preparation and no way of researching the evidence beforehand. Yeah, that's fair.

You expect to get a lot of research done sitting in a prison cell anyway? As for preparation, which may or may not be needed, it can be arrainged at particular times under similar circumstances to the inquest. Criminals are only allowed lawyer visits at particular times of day as it is.


These are people who rewrite the laws of physics on a regular basis, so egomaniacal is probably a bit justified.

No, no it's not. One can be both powerful and accept the rule of law at the same time. There are many examples of this in literature.


It's not a CN egomaniac thing, its human nature to be annoyed when someone turns your brain into tapioca pudding instead of taking another option, especially if you were innocent.

That would be the case if there were a lot of other options for keeping a caster in check. Would you prefer dex or str damage or turing them to stone? There are few options that can hold a powerful caster before very high level spells.


Are you seriously comparing tying someone up to reducing them to a drooling idiot? Consider which one would be more likely to require therapy afterwords.

Depends upon the person. The mental anguish some temporary quadra and parapalegics go through is probably equivalent.


Yes, it may be justified from a safety viewpoint, but ethically it is repugnant, and if someone did this as a method of imprisonment in a game I was DMing, I would mention to them they were straying towards LN, or maybe LE.

The ethical repugnancy seems to be predicated upon a notion that some human rights and faculties are more inviolate than others. I'll give you that it is extremely lawful, but that is the nature of law. I have yet to see an actual justification as to why it is evil, or at least more evil, than denying other faculties. Repeating it doesn't make it so, nor is it an argument.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

@Heroic:The concentration check for spellcasting when getting injured is 10+damage dealt+spell level. Since we're mostly talking about 10th level, you are looking at a spellcaster with a mod of 13+Con+1d20. So, in other words, if you can deal more damage than his Con mod+1d20, he'll fail the casting. A ranged attack (so that one guard can guard several prisoners) with a composite longbow and 20 Str(to give the guard a boost) deals 1d8+5. The Wizard should make that check easily.

[Squash Monster]

Permanent Stinking Cloud.

Done.

[Oslecamo]

Antimagic cells

Aproved by yours truly, the Azure city guard.

Beware of bards and moncks.

Add some adamantium shackles and should be as escape proof as possible.

Mind you, igh level fighters can dig trough the rocks with their bare hands if needed.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Antimagic cells

Aproved by yours truly, the Azure city guard.

Beware of bards and moncks.

Add some adamantium shackles and should be as escape proof as possible.

Mind you, igh level fighters can dig trough the rocks with their bare hands if needed.And the antimagic cells cost 120,000 GP for a 10ft radius. Meanwhile, the best locks for those manacles available is DC40, which any Rogue should be making at 10th level. The Fighter at least can be shut down by keeping him chained to a wall. Any class with other options should be able to escape easily.

[Trog]

Hmm... so a law stating that any person killing someone in the city limits would have their hand cut off would probably be a good enough deterrent. And the hanging over a pit of acid/shark and the rest would be a good way to keep them. Well I think that might be enough force to justify keeping the peace in a medieval-like society.

Now the problem is how to make the guards (warriors or perhaps lvl 2 max.?) competent enough to be able to CATCH a PC who has broken the law. Hmm.. Any ideas there anyone? :smallconfused:

[Skjaldbakka]

Really? Explain to me how denying someone use of their mental faculties is any more or less ethically questionable than denying them use of their physical faculties (like by gagging them and chaining them up).

Have you ever seen someone that you loved and respected deteriorate mentally after a series of strokes or Alzheimer's or any number of other things that do that? I suppose that is a stupid question, since you wouldn't have said the above if that were the case.

Really smart people tend to be very prideful, and be reduced to below the intelligence of an animal . . .

They'd be perfectly justified in killing the people responsible for doing that to them. Not quite justified in killing their family and friends as well, but close.

[Mewtarthio]

Now the problem is how to make the guards (warriors or perhaps lvl 2 max.?) competent enough to be able to CATCH a PC who has broken the law. Hmm.. Any ideas there anyone? :smallconfused:

If the guards are only level 2 at most, then the (presumably high-level, I'll assume ~10th) PCs have free run of the town unless there's some powerful force to oppose them, and there is nothing the pathetic city guard can do to change that unless they can somehow contact a stronger opponent.

[AKA_Bait]

Have you ever seen someone that you loved and respected deteriorate mentally after a series of strokes or Alzheimer's or any number of other things that do that?

Yes. My grandmother in the years before she died. My brother also has Autism, and has the mental age of a 5 or 6 year old (if that). My mother suffered from a nerve disease which basically paralized her entire body for a week and a half but left her mind intact. Of all three, from what I could tell, my mom emotionally suffered most from it.


They'd I suppose that is a stupid question, since you wouldn't have said the above if that were the case.

Can we get off our horses now?

[Sebastian]

Well, as far as 4E goes, a lot of powers have some sort of implement required to use them.

They are not required, you get a bonus to the roll if you use them but you can do without.

Kill them all and use raise dead when you want them alive.It Is the only way to be sure.

As an alternative use a flesh to stone-stone to flesh spell/rituals combo

[Leewei]

The GURPS game had a great solution for this: Drain Mana. Cast on an area, it made spellcasting difficult or impossible depending on the amount of draining.

In D&D terms, allow antimagic shell to be cheaply enchanted into an area (say 100gp per 5x5 area). Viola! Instant wizard prison.

Alternately, a creepy option for an evil prison could involce sundering the eyestalks off of beholders and chaining them to the walls of a prison. Occasionally feed them a prisoner who makes too much trouble.

[EvilElitest]

Feeble mind would be disrespect for human rights.
I still like my idea
from
EE

[The Necroswanso]

Reduce STR, DEX to 10, and CHA,WIS, and INT to 9. Lock them in an adamantine cell, with very hard stone walls, no window, and practically strip search them, and do a few cavity searches. It's not exactly possible to pick a lock by sticking your finger in it. And 9 INT and WIS, are litteraly JUST below average, so you're not some drooling idiot, you just temporarily can only perform algebra.

Arguing the 'humanity" and evil of doing what must be done to ensure a prisoner does not escape is pointless. Especially if they are able to simply walk out with their spells. (if they intend to, then they NEED to be reduced to drooling idiots.)
A wizard, no matter how prideful, would not turn around and overthrow the city simply out of spite. That's evil, pure and simple. Any PC should understand that at their level of power, imprisonment becomes difficult, and extreme meassures sometimes have to be taken. People who cannot accept that belong on the evil side, or not playing D&D.
On the other hand, if they were innocent, and yet they were still incarcerated, then someone was working behind the scenes to ensure the party saw harm. Which means any Wizard could figure that out the minute he got his INT back, and the player would understand that the DM has someone they need to hunt down.

Mages aren't megalomaniacs just because they have power. That's an evil thought process that belongs ont hat side of the alignment wheel. Even a chaotic character understands the need for law, they just simply resent it. Doing what is neccesarry may sometimes be questionably evil. But anyone with INT 6 understands what must be done, must be done.

[Saph]

For those of you who have a problem with feeblemind, petrification is the standard way of containing prisoners in a D&D setting who are a serious escape risk. Either have a spellcaster around to cast flesh to stone a few times, or just force the prisoner to have a staring contest with a basilisk.

Not only is it unescapeable without outside assistance, it's cheap (no need to buy food), cost-effective (save money on guards), and hygenic (no need for cleaners). You have a 0% suicide and death rate, too. Just unpetrify them when you want something.

- Saph

[Funkyodor]

Ankle Braclets with a no save/no SR Dimensional Lock. Also included is an effect that drains all SLA's and Spells after a restful sleep. Have the guards come in every morning and change out the fully 'charged' braclets with empty ones. Have the walls lead enriched (good thing lead poisoning doesn't exist in D&D) to prevent Scrying & Clairvoyance. Your set with a minimal/moderate security prison. Oh yeah, the braclets also have a silent alarm trap.

For a Maximum security facility, try doing the above on a Genesis plane with only a handful of people having access, the Warden (High level Wizard or Psion).

They can make up the costs by utilizing the drained spell power/spell abilities. Use the Rod of Absorption as a basis. Under the assumption that the Caster is captured already, Divinations & Arcane Sight can tell you roughly what level spells that can be cast, also what level of SLA's the individual might possess. A lvl 8 Sorc has about 45 charges worth of spells, a level 20 Sorc has about 270 charges. Thats alot of spell potential to be "mined". For things that would pose problems like at will SLA's (warlocks blast, etcetera), you can have solitary confinement within an anti-magic region, or a special 'personal range only' AMF effect on the braclet.

The Fortress (Christopher Lambert movie) also had some neat ideas that could be D&Dified.

[Koji]

I would just go with some nameless curse that makes the prisoners extremely lazy. They can't be bothered to pray or memorize spells, and are counted as fatigued or whatever. Who cares if there's no specific game effect already written for it?

[Ograbme]

Bonk some cooking pots together whenever they fall asleep.

[Tallis]

Are you looking for an escape-proof prison or just something reasonably difficult? Petrification is an obvious choice and lower level than AMF. Paralytic poison or sedatives are no magic options. Of course they should be searched (rogues can't pick locks without some sort of tool) and restrained if appropriate.

Put a trap on the door. Who expects the door of their prison cell to be trapped? Poison their food to weaken them (mentally and/or physically). Have vigilant guards keeping an eye on them. Cast blindness and deafness on them. Hard to escape if you can't see or hear...

Put the cell somewhere unsafe so that they're just better off staying there.

To all the people who will call some of these methods immoral: so what? We weren't asked about morality, just how to hold the prisoners. Since the society was described as medieval modern morals wouldn't apply anyway. The OP also never said the PCs were innocent, maybe they really did do something wrong. The lawmakers first concern is to make society safe, the rights of the prisoners come second. In a medieval society they're probably guilty until proven innocent anyway and probably won't be getting a lawyer.

Would a mage be mad about being feebleminded? Probably. I would be. But he might also be smart enough to realize that it was necessary to ensure his imprisonment and that any good government would have to ensure his innocence before allowing him his freedom. If they let the wrong person free it could cost a lot of lives, especially a high level mage.

As for how to catch them: hire mercenaries, use poison, catch them when they're sleeping, sneak up on them and sap them....
use every underhanded tactic you can think of unless the guardsmen are idiots and don't realize they're outmatched in a fair fight.

[Squash Monster]

Question:

If your party was tossed, unconscious, into a 20' cube with the door on the top center, and the cube contained a Permanent Stinking Cloud, how would you get out? Assume your unconsciousness takes long enough to end that you lose your fort save.

(assuming nobody in the party is undead or anything cheesy)

[Inhuman Bot]

One thing that people seem to think: Fighters are dead. We had a campagin with 9 people, one a barbarian another a fighter. Soloution to the whole prison: Fighter says "I rip the chains from the wall" Strength check *succeded* okay. Now I puch the door open. And on. The barbarian had an even easier time, as he could rage.

Oh also some tuff includes: With some skill tricks, a rouge can kick a lock to open it. Also warlocks have infinate spells. Also some of the extrordanary abilites pc's get can own antimagic fields. I know of a prc that let's people eat magic. Including amf.

[Mut]

It's all about the consequences.

You can keep low-level PCs locked up for a while, but eventually they will break out (and wreak all kinds of mayhem in the process). With a lot of resources and preparation and a complete lack of scruples, you can hold mid-level characters long enough to inconvenience them. High-level? Maybe, if you're lucky and have a clever idea (like the flesh-to-stone mentioned earlier), but even then somebody with a well-worded Contingency will spoil almost any plan.

From the point of view of the town guard, trying to imprison super-powerful characters against their will is a bad idea. It's just not going to end well. (If you were a cop, would you want Wolverine in one of your holding cells?) Rather, you want to put them in a position where they will voluntarily comply. For respected PCs and upright guards, this could mean parole: they swear on their honour not to do this, that or the other, and in return they can move around town. (This may not sound much, but promises like not drawing weapons or using magic will make players very uncomfortable.) If the guards are more ruthless/villainous, they may have other ways to keep the PCs in line -- threatening a hostage is the old stand-by.

Since I've not seen 4E yet I don't know what difference that will make -- but I'd be surprised if it changes things. The game is fundamentally about heroic PCs overcoming obstacles in creative and dramatic ways: a prison cell is nothing but a small dungeon, and smashing through dungeons is what PCs are built for.

[holywhippet]

Using rule 0 (the DM is always right) create an item like a rope or an orb which will immediately sever/shatter if magic is cast nearby. Have it blocking some kind of trap which will trigger if the prisoner attempts to cast as spell. For low risk prisoners use some kind of paralysis gas/poison or electrical shock. For high risk prisoners link it to a spike trap that will skewer the offender immediately.

[Citizen Joe]

In a world of predominantly mundane normals, if you're found guilty of using magic in a crime, you get sentenced to death... no jail... you're just killed outright. Clerics are slightly different in that they can be turned over to the Church for trial. In that case, their own god will judge them.

In FASA's Earthdawn and Shadowrun, casters needed to see or touch someone in order to target them. Thus, you could effectively stop a mage by plucking out their eyeballs (although a sack over the head works too). You could also chop off hands (they did it to thieves) or tongues or pretty much anything that the untrained surgeon thinks may be needed for spell casting.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay I know I'm putting the cart waaaay ahead of the horse here but in the previous editions of DnD I always had difficulty with making a decent holding cell for PCs. Granted when you put PCs in a prison you kinda expect them to break out... but still. Specifically the thing I always found troublesome was clerics and mages and such. I always had to invent some ridiculous anti-magic holding cell or something like that.

The main reason for this is to put a bit more fear into being detained so the PCs take the city watch or other appropriate level agent of justice/villian-who-plans-to-hold-the-PCs more seriously.

So, first of all, does anyone have any good (plausible and has worked in practice) way to detain PCs as prisoners without artifact-level magics?
Any of the long-term disablement spells will do, when combined with removal of all equipment.

Bestow Curse (Clr-3, Sor/Wiz 4) to get the casters to the point where they can't cast spells that will let them escape (get the Wizard down to around 12 Int, and he's pretty much stuck... although as Bestow Curse only gives -6 to an ability score, this stops working after they hit Int-19 without magic items - call it level 8).

Feeblemind (Sor/Wiz 5) will hold just about anyone, as it forbids casting spells, and reduces Intelligence to 1.

Flesh to Stone (sor/wiz 6) will hold them until it is countered; it has a chance of killing the prisoner on revival, though.

Polymorph Any Object (Sor/Wiz 8) is handy - you have to make them "willing" somehow, though - unconsciousness works - if you simply turn them into something of their size with animal intelligence (or lower).

Binding (Sor/Wiz 8), Temporal Stasis (Sor/Wiz 8) will also do very, very well, as can Trap the Soul (Sor/Wiz 8; duplicate it via Shades (sor/Wiz 9) to avoid the costs involved).

Before someone can do Silent and Stilled spells, bound, gagged, and Hooded will work. Past that, and you pretty much have to resort to torture, sleep deprivation, or magic.

[Rutee]

In a world of predominantly mundane normals, if you're found guilty of using magic in a crime, you get sentenced to death... no jail... you're just killed outright. Clerics are slightly different in that they can be turned over to the Church for trial. In that case, their own god will judge them.

This leaves the problem of Holding.

[The Sandman]

A Matrix-style prison works pretty well. Especially if part of the idea behind it is to use the PC's escape attempts as a way of testing their strength and finding out what tactics, spells, items and so forth they like to use. That way, the BBEG will know how to combat them when he next shows up, or will have accomplished some other goal related to their struggles to break out.

To make it even more fun, don't tell the players that this is what's happening at first. Just keep TPKing them in different ways, with their characters appearing in the jail cell as they were when they first started there (except for character level, xp, and so forth, which will have increased). Start dropping hints of what's really going on as they keep cycling through the scenario, such as little things their characters managed to leave behind that escaped the notice of previous simulation resets, memories of events that the players don't remember having played through, and so on.

The players won't even be able to try to escape the real prison until they realize they're in it.

[FlyMolo]

Fundamentally, PC Prisons are meant to be broken out of.

And as far as guardsmen taking out high level PCs, that's possible. They just have to be tricky. Get some drow poison (it's relatively cheap), some wands of true strike or a helpful wizard (even level 1!), and set up an ambush. Hit the wizard, and if he fails his fort save, you've made your job much easier. You have a lot of guards, a lot of crossbows, and a lot of poison. Recoup your losses by just taking the PCs cash on hand. A well-worded contingency(getting at most the wizard out...?) will at least cost the PCs some money, and governments can afford to play a game of attrition with finances.

Flesh to stone or a captive basilisk in a jar is a good idea, but really... Id moss, most poisons would work. Jab them while they're sleeping, to disrupt their rest. Actually, just putting id moss instead of parsley on their food would work great. Eat it, and be stupid. Don't eat it, and starve. for the bit where they are still smart enough to cast, prod them with a stick.

A clever psion with Psycarnum infusion would be able to regain power points slowly, even without rest. Infect them with cerebral parasites, so if they try and break out, you at least know about it.

The real problem is warlocks. No ASF, no rest needed, no min ability score. Constant prods with a sharp stick coated in drow poison. That sucker'll sleep through Ragnarok. Then again, they are warlocks. Paralyze them. That'll work. No somatic components if you can't move! Watch out for still SLA, though.

Warlocks are the hardest. Lots of ways to take out wizards, but how do you deal with warlocks?

Edit @ Above: There's a power for that. Called Microcosm. And that is quite possibly the best suggestion out there. Mind if I use it on my players?

[Citizen Joe]

Warlocks are the hardest. Lots of ways to take out wizards, but how do you deal with warlocks?


Your question is: How do you deal with someone that has made an infernal pact with a foul creature from the Abyss?

BURN THE WITCH!

[The Sandman]

Edit @ Above: There's a power for that. Called Microcosm. And that is quite possibly the best suggestion out there. Mind if I use it on my players?

Not at all; since I'm not likely to be DM'ing anytime soon, I'd be honored by someone using one of my suggestions. Just post a summary of what happens on the boards so we can see how it works out.

[kieza]

I ran across a discussion of a similar topic once, but it concerned the 4e eladrin's ability to teleport every five minutes and thus making jails useless. The solution? Cold iron manacles, which prevent them from using powers from their fey heritage. (Also works on fey pact warlocks.) I later extended it in a campaign setting that I'm writing so that wearing cold iron (not just touching or wielding it) cut off your ability to use magic. And, being manacles, they worked on non-magical types just as well. If the prisoner needed to use their hands, you could also put a collar on them or just bind their feet. Et voila! No more problems with uncontainable casters!

[Squash Monster]

I really hate to sound like a broken record here, but people keep mentioning fairly high-level spells, many of which have potential ways to get around them, or which only work on certain types of characters and thus require different lodgings for each prisoner.

But nobody has told me how they're escaping from the Stinking Cloud prison, which just requires a permanent 3rd level spell. Heck, Bewildering Cloud is 2nd level and does the same thing.

It's an AOE spell that forces you to take a fort save every round or be nausiated until you leave the cloud. Being in prison stops the latter of those, and nausia stops you from doing anything useful: it prevents spellcasting, attacks or anything requiring concentration and forces its victims to only take a single move action per round.

[Cuddly]

3 words:
Iron heart surge.

[Jasdoif]

3 words:
Iron heart surge.And hey, warblades have a good Fort save too. Mix in some Steadfast Determination or other way to not autofail on a 1, and even tossing them in while unconscious won't be an issue.

[Kompera]

Assuming that the players are the heroes, and that the game world is not filled with magic such that every town and hamlet has enchanted jail cells:

In neutral or good areas, they are asked to give their parole that they will not attempt to escape and will stand trial for whatever they are accused of. Since they are the good guys, they will agree, and also since they are the good guys they will be found innocent of whatever they have been accused of.

In evil areas or in the BBEGs dungeon or castle or whatever, who cares? They need to escape, so there's nothing to worry about.

If the PCs are not the good guys, just kill them and get it over with.

[Rutee]

And hey, warblades have a good Fort save too. Mix in some Steadfast Determination or other way to not autofail on a 1, and even tossing them in while unconscious won't be an issue.

I'm pretty sure Iron Heart Surge can be used while under effects that normally prevent it.

[Cuddly]

I'm pretty sure Iron Heart Surge can be used while under effects that normally prevent it.

It can't, since it requires a standard action to use. Instead of getting a maneuver that does what it was meant to do (break Hold Person, Paralysis, Stunning, etc), we instead get one that can end AMFs, weather effects, and gravity. Which it probably shouldn't be able to do, at least not pre-epic.

[Reel On, Love]

I ran across a discussion of a similar topic once, but it concerned the 4e eladrin's ability to teleport every five minutes and thus making jails useless.
You'd have the same problem with Shadow-Jaunting swordsages in 3.5.
What makes us so sure their teleport (just like Shadow Jaunt) isn't limited by Line of Sight and Line of Effect? Just have two doors. Jailer goes through Door 1, locks Door 1, opens door 2.

[tyckspoon]

What makes us so sure their teleport (just like Shadow Jaunt) isn't limited by Line of Sight and Line of Effect? Just have two doors. Jailer goes through Door 1, locks Door 1, opens door 2.

There was a developer's blog/playtesting development report that mentioned an over-eager Eladrin using his teleport to quickly drop down a dungeon level by going through the floor. It's old enough that it's probably not a reliable indicator of the finished mechanic, tho; they may have just been using 'ten foot Dimension Door' or similar as a placeholder for the final rule.

[Talic]

Hmm, for the slightly evil kingdoms:

1) Gouge out their eyes.
2) Cut out their tongues.
3) Chain them securely.
4) Dimensional Anchor the entire cell.
5) Make the door solid metal, rather than barred.
6) Make the lock accessible from one side only. The outside.
7) Make the actual locking mechanism a 2 foot thick bar of metal that extends from the door 2 feet into the ceiling, and another which extends 2 feet into the floor. Two more extend 2 feet into each side wall, and retract when unlocked.
8) No items. No clothing. No sinks. No beds. 4 walls, a floor, a ceiling, and a basin shaped into the floor which slowly fills with water that the prisoners can lap at like a dog, if they would like to drink.
9) Food is delivered through a 400 foot long pipe, 1 foot in diameter, through which the equivalent of Jello is dropped daily. This hole is constantly monitored, and has valve cutouts every 10 feet, that, when tripped, shut a 1 foot thick piece of metal in place through the pipe.
10) If escape is attempted through the pipe, first step is close the valve below the character. Apply Cloudkill. Close valve above character. Leave both valves shut for 4 days. No food is delivered during this time.
11) Make 1 wall clear, and monitored. If any prisoner is trying to circumvent the prison, the 1 foot tube shall be used to deliver AoE Save or Die until the entire room is devoid of life. Raise dead, as required, for the completely fair trial. Executions to follow, after the guilty verdict in the completely fair trial.

Complicated? Yes. Overly difficult? Yes. Non-epic? Yes. Cost effective? Certainly not. Fiendish? Abso-friggin-lutely.

[Jack_Simth]

I really hate to sound like a broken record here, but people keep mentioning fairly high-level spells, many of which have potential ways to get around them, or which only work on certain types of characters and thus require different lodgings for each prisoner.
Gaseous Form will work to escape very nearly any prison with air holes, and is only Third level. Dimension Door (fourth, and a staple spell for Wizards) will escape places without air holes.

Or are you referring to ways to keep the casters in line requiring high level spells? While yes, the certain methods do require spells 5th level and higher, Bestow Curse is Cleric-2, permanent, and (unless you're getting a caster that's has a primary casting attribute of 19 or higher before magic items) will prevent certain escape (but not uncertain escape) when combined with a reasonable cage and the removal of all items.

[Trog]

Wow. A lot of clever ideas.

My point behind asking is just trying to set up how a run-of-the-mill jail would be set up to hold, say, different level PCs. Small towns might have enough to hold lower level PCs. Larger cities would have enough to hold heroic tier PCs., etc.

In my experience the PCs are trying to do good and on a quest to save the world or the nation or a city or something good like that... but they also are pretty dang destructive. And no city in their right mind would be okay with vigilante justice so killing the merchant because he was part of a secret cult or something is still the job of the state not individual PCs. Or fireballing the inn in the middle of a fight. Which likely will burn down neighboring buildings as well. Since you want to discourage killing of any kind (not to mention arson)... all killers (and other law breakers) must be brought to justice.

To that end I need to develop a way for the peace keepers to be able to keep the peace. If you shot and killed someone now a days (much less, you know, hacking them to death with a sword) regardless of the reason you would be brought in. And the police have the means to do it. So how can the Town Guard (& their holding cells) be similarly equipped to do the same job of keeping the peace?

And the Eladrin teleport thing just brings up even more questions on how to hold them. Or how Eladrin societies would properly equip their guards and prisons.

Good ideas. Keep em coming. :smallsmile:

[Inyssius Tor]

Having every two-bit lawman tote around a wand of feeblemind is a little too suspension-breaking, even in Eberron. Instead, have him carry a little pouch of striped toadstool. Or ground blue whinnis leaves. Or scrapings of id moss. Or bread soaked in oil of taggit. Or... whatever.

It doesn't even need to be one of those expensive assassin's-grade poisons--all of the ones listed are pretty high-end, since they need to be instantaneously effective in small doses, effective if inhaled or transmitted by injury, and probably also near-indetectable if ingested. Plants that give you a killer headache or a brain full of cotton don't need to be that expensive if they take effect over the next hour, are foul-tasting and -smelling, are only effective in larger doses, and may be resistible even then if someone doesn't knock you out with a big stick before force-feeding them to you.

Like I said: hit them with a stick until they're too dazed to fight, then force-feed them blue whinnis leaves.

As for the Fey Step ability, there's an easy solution: shackle their legs to the floor. The pictures I've seen indicate that they can't walk through the Feywild if they can't walk at all.

[Squash Monster]

Gaseous Form will work to escape very nearly any prison with air holes, and is only Third level. Dimension Door (fourth, and a staple spell for Wizards) will escape places without air holes.

Or are you referring to ways to keep the casters in line requiring high level spells? While yes, the certain methods do require spells 5th level and higher, Bestow Curse is Cleric-2, permanent, and (unless you're getting a caster that's has a primary casting attribute of 19 or higher before magic items) will prevent certain escape (but not uncertain escape) when combined with a reasonable cage and the removal of all items.I was talking about methods to imprison, as the most popular choices are AMF and petrification. Bestow Curse works, but it requires one casting per prisoner instead of one casting and a permanency spell to make a cell that can hold as many prisoners as you like.

[Jasdoif]

I was talking about methods to imprison, as the most popular choices are AMF and petrification. Bestow Curse works, but it requires one casting per prisoner instead of one casting and a permanency spell to make a cell that can hold as many prisoners as you like.Permanency has that XP component, though; and you'll need to cast it again (and pay for that XP component again) if the cloud ever gets dispelled. And if the aforementioned Iron Heart Surge doesn't meet with your approval, a cleric with dispel magic prepared could do the same thing.

Meanwhile, bestow curse only costs a spell slot for the day.

[Rutee]

Incidentally, the answer to the OP is "Probably not a lot"

[Riffington]

A lot of these assume that guards are fighters of some kind.
Clearly, the guards should be Rogues. Allows them some Spot and Listen, and since you lose your Dex Bonus while manacled, their crossbow* is an actual threat.

*Naturally, holding an action to shoot someone is a lot less tiring if you have a propped-up crossbow than if you have a nocked bow.

Also, tipping the crossbow with some substance that hurts like heck but doesn't do permanent damage would be non-evil, but further up the Concentration difficulty.

If you want to be cheesy, add an insect or snake or something to the cell to grapple the characters' legs... adds yet another Concentration check to cast...

[Waspinator]

I think Flesh to Stone is about the only way of really making sure that they don't go anywhere no matter what class they are. If they're stripped of magic items before hand and you just keep casting it until it works, is there any way that they can escape besides outside intervention?

[Jack_Simth]

I was talking about methods to imprison, as the most popular choices are AMF and petrification. Bestow Curse works, but it requires one casting per prisoner instead of one casting and a permanency spell to make a cell that can hold as many prisoners as you like.

Yes, but it's also an ability you can quite reasonably expect to find in basically any D&D town. It's a little pricy (expected wage for the Cleric doing this is 60 gp/pop) so it's only something you do when you know you're dealing with a caster (or when you've got a caster on staff to do it for you) but a cleric-3 is something you can reasonably expect a guard force to have. The 11th level Wizard that can Permanency Stinking Cloud? Not so much. In fact, the Permanency required for Stinking Cloud is explicitly on the "not commonly available" list of spells for hire:

See spell description for additional costs. If the additional costs put the spell’s total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available. and
The cost given is for a spell with no cost for a material component or focus component and no XP cost. If the spell includes a material component, add the cost of that component to the cost of the spell. If the spell has a focus component (other than a divine focus), add 1/10 the cost of that focus to the cost of the spell. If the spell has an XP cost, add 5 gp per XP lost.

Permanency is a 5th level spell, and the Stinking Cloud use requires an 11th level caster. That's 550 gp already. As that particular use of Permenency requires 1,500 xp, that's another 7,500 gp on top of that, for a whopping 8,050 gp total (plus the costs for Stinking Cloud, but that's separate, so doesn't figure in to the restriction for how costly it is before it is no longer commonly available) - well beyond the 3,000 gp commonly available limit.

In fact, if you're relying on Permenency, get used to the idea of only having 1st level spells available for your prison - the underlying formula for the table is spell level * 500 xp, and 8 + spell level (minimum 9 total) for the minimum caster level - a Permenency for a 2nd level spell requires a 10th level caster burn 1,000 xp - which costs 5,000 gp just for the xp component alone, putting you over the "not commonly available" threshhold.

Now, if you use the trap crafting rules, you can have a Wiz-11 make a periodic trigger automatic reset antimagic field trap for 66,000 gp market (33,000 gp, 2,640 xp, and 66 days to create). Curiously, that does NOT put it on the "not commonly available" list. It does, however, give you a ten-foot radius permanent antimagic area, on which you can place a prison cell for powerful mages. Unless they're Initiate of Mystra clerics, or have Invoke Magic by some means...

[chiasaur11]

Hmm, for the slightly evil kingdoms:

1) Gouge out their eyes.
2) Cut out their tongues.
3) Chain them securely.
4) Dimensional Anchor the entire cell.
5) Make the door solid metal, rather than barred.
6) Make the lock accessible from one side only. The outside.
7) Make the actual locking mechanism a 2 foot thick bar of metal that extends from the door 2 feet into the ceiling, and another which extends 2 feet into the floor. Two more extend 2 feet into each side wall, and retract when unlocked.
8) No items. No clothing. No sinks. No beds. 4 walls, a floor, a ceiling, and a basin shaped into the floor which slowly fills with water that the prisoners can lap at like a dog, if they would like to drink.
9) Food is delivered through a 400 foot long pipe, 1 foot in diameter, through which the equivalent of Jello is dropped daily. This hole is constantly monitored, and has valve cutouts every 10 feet, that, when tripped, shut a 1 foot thick piece of metal in place through the pipe.
10) If escape is attempted through the pipe, first step is close the valve below the character. Apply Cloudkill. Close valve above character. Leave both valves shut for 4 days. No food is delivered during this time.
11) Make 1 wall clear, and monitored. If any prisoner is trying to circumvent the prison, the 1 foot tube shall be used to deliver AoE Save or Die until the entire room is devoid of life. Raise dead, as required, for the completely fair trial. Executions to follow, after the guilty verdict in the completely fair trial.

Complicated? Yes. Overly difficult? Yes. Non-epic? Yes. Cost effective? Certainly not. Fiendish? Abso-friggin-lutely.


I object to the "Slightly" in this post.

Step ONE is massive mutilation!

[Sholos]

And the antimagic cells cost 120,000 GP for a 10ft radius. Meanwhile, the best locks for those manacles available is DC40, which any Rogue should be making at 10th level. The Fighter at least can be shut down by keeping him chained to a wall. Any class with other options should be able to escape easily.

How does a 10-th level Rogue with no gear reliably beat a DC 40 lock? That's a max of 13 ranks. Take Skill Focus and that gives you another 3. Let's be really generous and give the Rogue an 18 DEX to begin with. With level-ups, that puts his DEX at 20 for +5. That's all he's going to have. So that's a total of 21. No he gets a -2 penalty for not having tools (this being an intelligently run prison). Even with a Take 20 (which assumes guards never come by to look in), that's only 39. So, an Elf with a 20 DEX to start could do it. With lazy guards. So definitely not "any Rogue". In fact, only a very small percentage of them. Face it, good manacles are going to stay on barring a Knock spell. Unless, of course, there's some PrC out there that I have no doubt not heard of because I don't own every splatbook out there. But I thought we were talking Rogue 10, not Rogue X/Lock-breaking-PrC X.

And that is completely ignoring the common sense argument that a Rogue with only his/her fingers isn't going to be picking much of anything, except maybe other people's pockets. On that note, keep the keys away from the Rogue.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Why doesn't he have tools? Ignoring the items in CS that are designed to hide things (as we can assume those were removed), he still should be able to hide something from anyone around his level if he had enough time to take 20. Search is Wis-based, and almost no one who has it as a class skill can afford to max Wis the way a Rogue can max Dex, plus there are no synergies to Search. Even if they stripped the PCs before locking them, up, there are ways to avoid having it found. :smalleek:

[Sholos]

Not with cavity searches! :smalltongue:

[3Power]

Wizards: Take away Spellbook
Clerics: Take away Holy Symbol
Sorcerors/bards/druids: reinforced solitary confinement.

Beyond that, I think the next best step is to use some sort of antimagic collar. If you introduce some kind of stone that disrupts the flow of magic in your campaign, a number of cheap items like this could be produced.

[Weasel2007]

Low level pcs could be confined by gagging, blindfolding, shackling and jabbing with a stick to prevent them sleeping. Sure high level pcs might be able to get out but high level pcs should have to be confined with anti-magic fields or other expensive ****er-measures.

[hewhosaysfish]

8) No items. No clothing. No sinks. No beds. 4 walls, a floor, a ceiling, and a basin shaped into the floor which slowly fills with water that the prisoners can lap at like a dog, if they would like to drink.
9) Food is delivered through a 400 foot long pipe, 1 foot in diameter, through which the equivalent of Jello is dropped daily. This hole is constantly monitored, and has valve cutouts every 10 feet, that, when tripped, shut a 1 foot thick piece of metal in place through the pipe.
10) If escape is attempted through the pipe, first step is close the valve below the character. Apply Cloudkill. Close valve above character. Leave both valves shut for 4 days. No food is delivered during this time.


One problem here. (Practical problem that is. I haven't bothered counting the ethical problems... "Slightly" evil indeed!)

You've been quite thorough in arranging for the food to get in securely but make no mention of how it gets out.
May I recommend...
...a long, narrow pipe as (per the food coming in) leading to two tanks which only empty after several days, the first emptying into the second, the second emptying into some appropriate sewerage system.
Anyone attempting to escape this way will have to hold their breath for a long time... and any spell durations wont last either.
If you're really paranoid, add a third tank, which is actually a vat, in a sealed room to which guards can be dispatched if you think anyone might last a week in tank 2.

[Saph]

Just petrify them. No feeding, sanitation, guarding, clothing, or entertainment required. It really is easier.

- Saph

[Citizen Joe]

Actually, petrification doesn't sound too uncalled for. Rationale: Magic users are caught committing a crime using magic so you're justified to detain them using magic. Meanwhile, fighters and rogues getting caught would just be detained.

Now the question is how to do it... I suggest a cockatrice in a cage. You force spellcasters (at sword point) to stick their hand in the cage, where the cockatrice promptly bites them and petrifies them. Then pull the cage away for the next person. Another option is gorgon breath. Medusa are Lawful evil, so it is conceivable that they may be on the police force under contract (gaze attacks can be 'turned off' so as not to affect the rest of the police).

Now, the problem is un-petrifying them. Break Enchantment is the best spell for this, although the more specialized Stone to Flesh (at 1 level higher!?) also works. Best I can tell, you'll need a 9th level caster as a magistrate to release the imprisoned person. Those are supposed to be rare, so if you're caught committing a crime with magic, you'll be petrified but your trial may not be for years until they get a sufficiently powerful person there to adjudicate and release you.

[Citizen Joe]

Actually, petrification doesn't sound too uncalled for. Rationale: Magic users are caught committing a crime using magic so you're justified to detain them using magic. Meanwhile, fighters and rogues getting caught would just be detained.

Now the question is how to do it... I suggest a cockatrice in a cage. You force spellcasters (at sword point) to stick their hand in the cage, where the cockatrice promptly bites them and petrifies them. Then pull the cage away for the next person. Another option is gorgon breath. Medusa are Lawful evil, so it is conceivable that they may be on the police force under contract (gaze attacks can be 'turned off' so as not to affect the rest of the police).

Now, the problem is un-petrifying them. Break Enchantment is the best spell for this, although the more specialized Stone to Flesh (at 1 level higher!?) also works. Best I can tell, you'll need a 9th level caster as a magistrate to release the imprisoned person. Those are supposed to be rare, so if you're caught committing a crime with magic, you'll be petrified but your trial may not be for years until they get a sufficiently powerful person there to adjudicate and release you.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So, no one has a non-evil method of imprisoning someone? Years imprisoned just waiting for the trial seems pretty evil to me.

[Peregrine]

My solution is to calibrate my expectations somewhat differently from what others are doing here; but I do that anyway. :smalltongue: 10th level is not common, certainly not the "middle" levels of power from an in-game perspective, in worlds I build. 11th level is "legendary" (as in you show up on legend lore spells now), so 10th level is truly extraordinary and the pinnacle of what might be called "normal" human achievement. Detaining such characters should take something suitably extraordinary itself, and the average town guard isn't going to have measures like that.

Flip it around, imagine if it was some bad guys (the Linear Guild, for instance) being detained. You expect them to break out. You expect to need a group of powerful characters (the heroes) to come along and slap some enforcement on their sorry butts. You don't need every lawman to have a feeblemind item on hand, that's what the PCs are for. And when it's the PCs in that position, that's what matched NPCs with class levels are for.

I don't expect 4e to change this all that much.

I know, I've dodged the question of what exactly can be done, even by the PCs, to detain characters. Antimagic field is definitely my preferred basic method; the PC wizard just does the town a favour and pops one into the previously mundane prison. While I think most of the arguments against mental subjugation techniques like feeblemind have been largely appeals to emotion, there's certainly some truth to them. It's tricky to express exactly why restricting someone's mental faculties is evil, but countless writers in the real world have done so in different ways (often in dystopian sci-fi rather than fantasy). I think it basically comes down to the idea that the mind is the thing that's most truly "your own"; in reality, physical restraint is fairly trivial compared to mentally restraining a person or group of people. Brainwashing and prosecuting "thoughtcrime" are certainly considered oppressive; denying someone the ability to think is certainly cruel and unusual; and sleep deprivation is a recognised method of torture.

You can argue that this changes greatly in a fantasy world with D&D spells, but you then have to sell that to a bunch of players who come from the real world. :smalltongue:


Why doesn't he have tools? Ignoring the items in CS that are designed to hide things (as we can assume those were removed), he still should be able to hide something from anyone around his level if he had enough time to take 20. Search is Wis-based, and almost no one who has it as a class skill can afford to max Wis the way a Rogue can max Dex, plus there are no synergies to Search. Even if they stripped the PCs before locking them, up, there are ways to avoid having it found. :smalleek:

I wouldn't allow a character to take 20 on a Sleight of Hand check, because it's an opposed check and they don't know if they've failed until someone searches them. (Unfortunately I can't see that the rules explicitly back me up on this. Disable Device does specify that a character must know they failed in order to try again...) Searchers, on the other hand, can take 20, they gain a +4 bonus on opposed rolls against Sleight of Hand as a matter of course (see the Sleight of Hand description), and they'd probably get a circumstance bonus for strip searches and... other methods of thorough inspection. There may be no synergy to Search (unless you're cavity searching a warforged, in which case Knowledge (architecture and engineering) should apply :smallwink:), but there's only one to Sleight of Hand.

[Avor]

Zone of Truth, detect evil 15 times over, potion of trurth, a level 20 Expert NPC as lord/judge/king with maxed out Sense motive and diplomacy, and a item that gives him +10 to both of those.

If by fluke you can manage to beat the zone of truth, detect evils, you will sill have to bluff your face off, where only if you maxed it out, and then roll a nat 20.


The idea, they ask you stay, agree to await trial. Most G and even some N characters will agree.

If they do not agree, then turn them to stone.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Zone of Truth, detect evil 15 times over, potion of trurth, a level 20 Expert NPC as lord/judge/king with maxed out Sense motive and diplomacy, and a item that gives him +10 to both of those.

If by fluke you can manage to beat the zone of truth, detect evils, you will sill have to bluff your face off, where only if you maxed it out, and then roll a nat 20.


The idea, they ask you stay, agree to await trial. Most G and even some N characters will agree.

If they do not agree, then turn them to stone.1: Level 20 NPCs do not exist outside of Faerun.
2: Zone of Truth does not stack.
3: How do you know the NPC with Sense Motive is honest?
4: Why aren't you asking them if they're guilty instead of waiting for the trial if you have all of that?

[Trog]

Hmm... So I'm starting to think something like this might work:

All towns have some sort of stone holding cells. All prisoners have their hands and feet shackled. Any spell caster is bound and gagged as well and kept separate from others. A local magistrate acts as judge. Death is by variable methods depending on the local laws. Lengthy emprisonment usually means transportation to...

Small Cities have the addition of a cockatrice for the flesh to stone bite for those who the authorities feel too dangerous to keep any other way. A local magistrate acts as judge and Zone of Truth is used whenever they deem necessary. Death is by cockatrice bite and a long fall into a rubble filled pit. Prisoners turned to stone are transported via caravan (when convenient) to...

Large "Hub" City. Here a magistrate holds court in a permanent zone of truth. A caster here can return the prisoners to their original state for trial. Death, again, is by cockatrice bite and a long fall into a rubble filled pit.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Doesn't turning someone to stone risk killing them, though?

[kc0bbq]

1: Level 20 NPCs do not exist outside of Faerun.
Why not? There's nothing that says they don't. If I want a world populated with the occasional level 30 commoner with epic skill focus (profession: farming) growing enough food for a city on an acre of dead, bare bedrock, nothing in the rules says I can't.

[Citizen Joe]

Doesn't turning someone to stone risk killing them, though?

In first edition there was a system shock associated with it. May have extended into second edition as well. So if you didn't make your system shock check (twice... once for stoning... once for turning back) then you died. This also applied to polymorphs, but not polymorph self.

In 3.X though, that doesn't apply. Your only danger is that you could be Coup De Gras'd and shattered while you are stone. What's more, I don't think you sense the passage of time while stone (at least not in the stories I've heard).

[tyckspoon]

Doesn't turning someone to stone risk killing them, though?

No, but turning somebody back to flesh may kill them as per Stone to Flesh. It's a pretty easy save for the level of the spell, but it does mean that at least 5% of all prisoners you attempt to recover to stand trial or interrogate are just going to die instead.

[Roderick_BR]

I think it won't change much from 3.x. Normal cells are supposed to keep down normal people, not adventurers. 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd level characters may have a hard time breaking free (if at all), but above that, most characters can escape if the cell is not especially made to hold down powerful beings.
Like, how do you hold down a guy that can steal your sockets without taking off your shoes first? How do you hold down a guy that can bend reality to his will? How do you hold down a guy that gains powers from deities? How do you hold down the guy that can bend iron bars as easily as wooden sticks?
The idea of special cells, like the ones the Safire Guard had in the comic is a cool and completely in-character alternative to lock away highly powered individuals.

[Citizen Joe]

No, but turning somebody back to flesh may kill them as per Stone to Flesh. It's a pretty easy save for the level of the spell, but it does mean that at least 5% of all prisoners you attempt to recover to stand trial or interrogate are just going to die instead.

Actually, it is a DC 15 fortitude check. Since we're applying this to spell casters, they usually don't have that good of a fortitude save. So, easily half the criminals won't survive the change.

Break Enchantment, however, just requires a caster level check vs. (in this case) the cockatrice's HD (5) + 11. Break Enchantment would require a minimum level 9 caster and you can release one person per caster level. Much superior to Stone to Flesh.

[tyckspoon]

Actually, it is a DC 15 fortitude check. Since we're applying this to spell casters, they usually don't have that good of a fortitude save. So, easily half the criminals won't survive the change.


Oh, right. I'd forgotten you would have taken off their X of Resistance and Widget of Proof Against Transmutation first.

[Avor]

1: Level 20 NPCs do not exist outside of Faerun.
2: Zone of Truth does not stack.
3: How do you know the NPC with Sense Motive is honest?
4: Why aren't you asking them if they're guilty instead of waiting for the trial if you have all of that?

1- I'm DM, if I want a level 20 NPC, I can.
2- No, they do not, I zone of truth for big places, potions for smaller towns.
3- Deosnt matter, he's either the king, a LG outsider, or a close personal friend of the king.
4- Gather evidence, witness statements, we're talking about LG societies here. If you ask a NE Wizzard if he is guilty for destroying a orphanage while researching a new, he will honestly beleive he is not, he will honestly think his actions are ok.

[Yahzi]

In order to be halfway realistic the answer has to be something that a town of 10,000 people would have access to.
Just a plain old iron cage.

Anybody who can get out of that shouldn't have been put in it in the first place.

Really, if a 9th level wizard wants to set fire to the local tavern, turn a few guardsmen into frogs, help himself to the best booze, all the gold, and the virgins... pretty much all a town of 10,000 is going to do is say, "Yes, sir."

Old West towns were scared of a few 0th levels with guns (well, in the movies at least). A 9th lvl wizard is like a Harrier fighter-bomber. You do the math. :smallbiggrin:



If I want a world populated with the occasional level 30 commoner with epic skill focus (profession: farming) growing enough food for a city on an acre of dead, bare bedrock, nothing in the rules says I can't
That's a 24 CR encounter... that can be won by 5th level chars. You're talking serious XP scorage. If your players don't make a career out of hunting down those tasty bites of XP, then surely somebody else in your world will.

[Talic]

One thing I've thought of for a supermax in D&D is thus:

Underground prison. Every cell benefits from an AMF. Every cell has a small grated hole in the ceiling and floor. Every door has a small grated window, with a pressure sensitive panel that will cover it when necessary. All seals in this cell are watertight. The floor grate is set, on default, to "open", and provides for a system of waste removal. The door grate allows for some air circulation, food distribution, and prisoner communication.

The ceiling grate is valved, and is set, by default, to "Closed".

All valves are far enough down pipes to be outside of antimagic. All valves in a cellblock are controlled by the bearer of a badge. With the badge, the bearer can activate any one cell with a command word. If the badge wearer perishes or is knocked unconscious, it trips all cells controlled by it, as well as locking down the passageway leading to the cells (similar grate system there, though there's no antimagic). If the badge ever goes within an area of antimagic, or is removed for more than 5 rounds, all cells and the cellblock similarly trigger.

Top valves open, bottom valves close. Top valves are connected to a lake above. Cells flood. Cells can be re opened by another badge, individually, or all at once (that badge controls opening of any cell in the compound).

Expensive? Yes. About on par with the supermax systems of today, with lethal trapping to boot.

[Jothki]

One thing I've thought of for a supermax in D&D is thus:

Underground prison. Every cell benefits from an AMF. Every cell has a small grated hole in the ceiling and floor. Every door has a small grated window, with a pressure sensitive panel that will cover it when necessary. All seals in this cell are watertight. The floor grate is set, on default, to "open", and provides for a system of waste removal. The door grate allows for some air circulation, food distribution, and prisoner communication.

The ceiling grate is valved, and is set, by default, to "Closed".

All valves are far enough down pipes to be outside of antimagic. All valves in a cellblock are controlled by the bearer of a badge. With the badge, the bearer can activate any one cell with a command word. If the badge wearer perishes or is knocked unconscious, it trips all cells controlled by it, as well as locking down the passageway leading to the cells (similar grate system there, though there's no antimagic). If the badge ever goes within an area of antimagic, or is removed for more than 5 rounds, all cells and the cellblock similarly trigger.

Top valves open, bottom valves close. Top valves are connected to a lake above. Cells flood. Cells can be re opened by another badge, individually, or all at once (that badge controls opening of any cell in the compound).

Expensive? Yes. About on par with the supermax systems of today, with lethal trapping to boot.

So you could kill everyone in the prison by slipping an item that generates an antimagic field into the possession of the next shift's guard?

[Talic]

So you could kill everyone in the prison by slipping an item that generates an antimagic field into the possession of the next shift's guard?

Not the prison, but the cell block, yes. Interesting and effective assassination technique for an imprisoned target, once you get the information on the prison system, allowing you to formulate the plan that takes advantage of it.

[ikrase]

Here are some simple things to add to magic physics. TO hell with the catgirls.

Its really hard to use silent and still spell at the same time. THis jumps the spell level A LOT.

All prisoners are drugged with INT/CHA/WIS poison. It worked in Eragon. All you need is a cheap poison that does that, and mages fall.

Antimagic is easy to do- a feild that moves with you is a lot easier than a cell full of expensive stuff that takes days to cast.

If you have fully enclosed cells without bars, fireballing is not easy and can be scuicidal.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Did you read the thread? No, wait, I don't want to know.
Its really hard to use silent and still spell at the same time. THis jumps the spell level A LOT. Yes, but a bunch of spells that are useful have only one or the other as components. Silent Dimension Door is the standard.
All prisoners are drugged with INT/CHA/WIS poison. It worked in Eragon. All you need is a cheap poison that does that, and mages fall. Yes, it worked for the Evil Emporer. It's kind of hard for a good society to justify melting the brains of prisoners who haven't even stood trial yet.
Antimagic is easy to do- a feild that moves with you is a lot easier than a cell full of expensive stuff that takes days to cast. Yes, but continuous AMF in an item is 122,000 GP. A permanency is even worse. Either only gets you 10'.
If you have fully enclosed cells without bars, fireballing is not easy and can be scuicidal.But Shape Stone is fine, as is any of about a thousand generic spells that can be used to escape.

[Mewtarthio]

1- I'm DM, if I want a level 20 NPC, I can.
[...]
3- Deosnt matter, he's either the king, a LG outsider, or a close personal friend of the king.

Fair enough, but you have to consider the implications of your decisions. You have an immensely powerful guy who's a close personal friend of the king in charge of the justice system. How could anyone hope to stand against such a kingdome in matters of, say, diplomacy and trade? His silver tongue would convert any foreign emissaries to his cause, and there'd certainly be no way to hide anything from him if he decided to ask you some questions. Such a kingdom would either rule the world, or be wiped out by invaders who know that, while they could never hope to best them in the chambers of their courts, they could certainly best them on the field of battle.

In short, realize that your solutions may have far-reaching impacts on things besides the nation's judicial system.


Evil Emporer[/i]. It's kind of hard for a good society to justify melting the brains of prisoners who haven't even stood trial yet.

People keep bringing this up. The fact is that enchantment magic is not only readily available but is also the best way to neutralize a spellcaster. All other methods that even approach its level of efficiency either require expensive magic items, involve tortures that are at least as painful as a feeblemind, pose some additional risk to the target, or some combination of the three.

Additionally, we only consider mind control magic to be particularly heinous because it does not exist in our world. We've never had to make the hard choice between violating the sanctity of a criminal's mind or risking that he escape and slaughter large numbers of good and loyal guards in the process. Furthermore, any society that refused to resort to mind control would likely fall behind other societies and be destroyed. Eventually, any "good" society would have to make a decision to accept a more utilitarian definition of good, lest they be unable to handle their most dangerous criminals and so be destroyed. After a few generations of this--call it cultural evolution, call it a thousand years of collective cognitive dissonance, call it whatever you want--the practice would be considered perfectly acceptable.

[xirr2000]

Well, I just read the first thread and skipped to posting a reply so my apologies for typing what has probably been typed but...

Caster types need to be able to see, speak, wave their arms and generally know where they are to cast their spells. Even with feats to eliminate some of these most can't teleport unless they can see where they are going.

Removing spell components, binding, gagging and placing them in a dark room upside down can do all of this without magic. In fact I'm sure this was done frequently throughout history on folks who can't cast magic. Ever seen "Man in the Iron Mask"? How about "Mage in the Iron Mask"? Sounds like the sorta thing a medieval community would love to do to a arcane caster they don't know or trust and well within the technology level of even rural farming communities. Taking them there blindfolded would add to this as they would have no reference at all if they were above/below ground even.

Also, there can be many roleplay ways to detain characters. Wizards may want to stay in good standing with the local wizards guild, who happens to ostracize any renegade who tarnishes the arcane reputation but acting outside the law? I'm sure this would depend on your campaign but you get the idea. Some characters, like Eladrin elves in 4E, may be known teleporters and just get shot on sight if they get on the wrong side of the law so it might force the PCs to make sure they don't break the law (or captured by evil baddies), or at least not get caught.

[AKA_Bait]

Ok, since it was brought back up, I'd like to just make a few points about Feeblemind.

Despite assertions to the contrary, Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm)is not an evil spell by default. Can it be used for evil means? Sure, but so can pretty much any spell (including the cure spells if used as a means to keep the subject of torture alive until they break for example).

Simply put, if a band of PC's is charged with capturing a suspected criminal, I'd lay good odds that not one poster here would even consider shifting their alignment or warning them they comitted an evil act if the PC caster used Feeblemind to disable the suspect so they could be apprehended.

Do the local authorities have a moral duty to dispel the feeblemind on the suspect when the suspect is being held in custody? If not, what, exactly, is the difference than using the spell to keep the suspect in custody if they were captured by some other means?

I'll be frank here as to why I think that compulsion and enchantment spells (or mundane effects such as poison) which effect Int and Wis scores get a bad rap on these boards and among gamers in general. It's because we tend to be cerebral people and we define ourselves in terms of our minds rather than our bodies. Our minds are what we, nerds that we are, are most proud of and hold most prescious. So, it's understandable that many posters have a vicerally adverse reaction to the notion of containing a criminal by reducing their mental capacity to escape rather than their physical capacity to escape. I'll take a guess that most, not all, posters would rather be tied up than drugged. However, personal preference (or aversion) does not a moral argument make.

[Breltar]

Here are a few items that could be made somewhere else and not require a high level mage to be around to undo something...

Shackles of Stone - Shackles that when affixed turn the wearer to stone instantly. The shackles can be taken off by a special key that is individually tied to each shackle. This would let the judge/jailer/etc be able to undo their bonds when its time to do something.

Shakles of Anti Magic Explosion - These would be similar to the beeper type mechanism that real life criminals wear for house arrest but lethal if they leave a certain area. "Stay in town or that thing will explode... try and take it off without the key and it will explode too." Maybe have a instant death spell instead of the explosion, or a vial of super toxin in the shackle itself.

Those ideas are off the top of my head, probably some easy way around them I havent thought of.

[pendell]

I realize this is probably a stupid question, since I'm not really a player ... but what about sleep? I grant that the spell can be saved against, but I think a caster could be persuaded not to resist if the alternative was death ...

Are there other spells that would induce something like suspended animation, where the character in effect goes into a state of unconsciousness, resting peacefully until we're ready to wake them up? Feign death?

Someone mentioned that most of these methods encompass some level of 'evil'. I contend that confining someone against their will is inherently an evil act, justified in this case by the danger to society posed by those individuals. Since throwing someone in a box is normally not a nice thing to do to a person, it shouldn't be surprising if the methods used to accomplish same smell somewhat of evil.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[WarlockBeast]

I make sperate metal large 25 foot radius rings of some kind of metal, depending on highest strength level and charecter level, i make it like this. total level: 1-2=Bronze, 3-4=Iron, 5-7=masterwork/reinforced iron, 8-11=steel, 12-15=steel, 16-17=masterwork/reinforced steel, 18-19=silver, 20-any epic=mithril, masterwork/reinforced mithril/adamtine. Their arms & legs will be cuffed to poles in an x formation, IMO arms spread diagonly up left and right, while legs spread diagnoly down left and right. Also gag them, so casters without silent spell won't work. They won't be able to focus two parts of their body from pulling out of one spot, as the poles are solid and unmoving, unlike chains. The position also should make it take longer for them to rest.

[Citizen Joe]

Someone brought up Hallow spell in another thread. We already know it is easy to petrify with a cockatrice. One of the court buildings could be hallowed with dispel magic. So during the trial, the petrified person could be wheeled in, the petrification dispelled while he was in the courtroom. After the trial he would be led out where the petrification reactivates and he is put into holding until someone with Break Enchantment could be brought in.

Similarly, the NORMAL courtroom may have a Hallowed Zone of Truth.

[Irreverent Fool]

The floor is a treadmill, preventing the PCs from taking a short or extended rest! With just their puny at will powers, they'll be totally at the mercy of their captors!

Maybe.

That's great. I'll have to use that.