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View Full Version : A quick-fix for a newbie playing Monk?



Frosty
2008-05-05, 02:52 PM
I have someone who insists on playing the MONK class (and nothing else but the Monk class because he likes the flavor and all the "cool abilities!!" he saw). I have tried to dissuade him to no avail, and now I gotta figure out a way for him tobe able to contribute meaningfully. Now, keep in mind that this guy doesn't know squat about optimizing, so if some of the fixes seem "over the top if combined with other things" well...he won't be combining it other things. Tell me what you think about a quick-fix:

Full BAB
Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon (Flaming fist!!!)
Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR.
Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge.
Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day.
Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day (Caster level = Druid of the same level) starting at level 10
Lose Slow Fall.
6 skill points per level.

Would this be good enough to let the Monk keep up? I also also give him 18 in all stats.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 02:55 PM
Show him the unarmed swordsage. Yeah, he'll just pick "PW000N!" Desert Wind maneuvers, but at least he'll be semi effective.

Rutee
2008-05-05, 02:57 PM
Desert Wind, like Blasting, is effective. It's only not useful when you compare to "Save or Suck, game's over", really.

Solo
2008-05-05, 02:59 PM
He'll never learn if you baby him.

Rutee
2008-05-05, 03:01 PM
Solo, this is a newbie. You help them have fun, not leave them to wallow in mediocrity due to inexperience, then have them eventually discover the horrific truth, then leave in disgust.

ColonelFuster
2008-05-05, 03:02 PM
Try showing him "Battle Dancer" if you have the Dragon Compendium- it makes many of the fixes you mentioned here, and they're chaotic, which is easier to play for newbies. If not, I think you may want to go with just a few of these- flaming fists (I already do this), and give six skill points instead of slow fall. Top it off with the favored enemy ability (they all train in a monastery, right? with a master that probably knows how to fight one thing really well, right?) and you should be good to go without having to raise the BAB.

Solo
2008-05-05, 03:03 PM
He's a poor optimizer, but it was not stated that he is a newbie.

And frankly, while tweaking a class is ok, giving one player 18 in all stats is going to cause problems in the gaming group.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 03:03 PM
Desert Wind, like Blasting, is effective. It's only not useful when you compare to "Save or Suck, game's over", really.

I beg to differ. Most high level mobs have fire resistance 30. That's most of your 'neuvers useless, right there. Even Inferno blast's efficency is reduced by 30%, and it's your effing level 9 maneuver!

Meanwhile, a Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw Swordsage, a Devoted Spirit Crusader, or an Iron Heart Warblade are all comfortably inflicting more than double your damage (70 damage to 150 damage), every turn. It simply is very subpar. And a Setting Sun defensive Swordsage or Stone Dragon anything is STILL better than you. It just plain sucks.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 03:05 PM
He's a poor optimizer, but it was not stated that he is a newbie.

*points to the THREAD TITLE*

Aleron
2008-05-05, 03:05 PM
Monks aren't that inherantly broken(weak). It all depends on how he wants to play his monk, and the feats he uses to get there. If it's a secondary heavy hitter, suggest he take Improved Natural Attack(requires BAB 4, so take at level 6) from Monster Manual 4, and if he still wants to be "armored" go high Dex/wis, and less str and either take weapon finess or Intuitive Attack(BoED) at level 3 so he has a better time hitting.
His unarmed attacks naturally gain, over time, ways to overcome some damage reduction(Magic/holy/Adamantine) as it is. There is an item, "Amulet of Natural Attacks" from Savage species that allows him to enchant his natural attacks like others can enchant weapons.

Or the other roll he plays well is the flanker because of his speed and possible sneakiness. If that's the case just look up some feats that move in that direction and he'll be equally as usefull.

There's no need for the Airwalk in place of slowfall...monks are ground fighters. If he wants ranged let him take weapon profency Longbow...

I will agree in theory on the Dimension Door change...but that could get ugly...as my monks normally have a wis bonus around 7-8 by level 12...

Solo
2008-05-05, 03:06 PM
*points to the THREAD TITLE*

Fair enough, but I stand by my point that giving one player 18 in all stats is going to cause problems in the group.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 03:08 PM
Tell me what you think about a quick-fix:

Full BAB
Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon (Flaming fist!!!)
Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR.
Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge.
Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day.
Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day (Caster level = Druid of the same level) starting at level 10
Lose Slow Fall.
6 skill points per level.

Would this be good enough to let the Monk keep up? I also also give him 18 in all stats.

At a first glance, way too overpowered. Plus, it's also possible within the existing rules, so no "quick fix" needed...

full BAB? Get divine power effect.
Body enchantable? Get the spells holy sword or greater magic weapon since the monk's unarmed strike are considered manufactured weapons.
Overcome DR? Get Align weapon if you need it, otherwise magic, lawful, and adamantine are yours eventuallly.
Flurry of blows at end of charge/with movement? Get pounce (non-core items allow this, as does polymorph), get a mount. Or, get an intelligent item that does the moving for you. Or get a belt of battle (non-core).
More dimension door? Get items that do it. (wand, cape of mountebank).
Gain airwalk? Forget airwalk. Get a flying item (boots of flying for 16,000 are good) and add your movement enhancement bonus on top. Way better than any air walk.
Lose slow fall? Why? It is much underrated. In dungeons (traps etc.) it's golden. Plus, it adds to your movement total.
6 skill points per level? Why? Be human with INT 14 (INT 18 as intended by you). 7 or 9 skill points per level. It can hardly get better.


Additionally, it depends on what the others in the group play and what sources you admit for character creation (also, what point buy).
At what level will your group start?

If you're patient, I'll post a core monk guide by the end of this week. That could help, too.

- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 03:08 PM
Yeah. The other players are going to veto the newbie so that he plays something that can actually use Captain America stats effectively.

Rutee
2008-05-05, 03:11 PM
He's a poor optimizer, but it was not stated that he is a newbie.

Owned by the thread title.


I beg to differ. Most high level mobs have fire resistance 30. That's most of your 'neuvers useless, right there. Even Inferno blast's efficency is reduced by 30%, and it's your effing level 9 maneuver!

I know about Fire Resistance; I don't care; For that matter, most of the higher end mobs are immune to Sneak Attack, yet we don't call Rogues useless. When we get to "Mechanics that can be used to cripple characters", I must leave some trust to the GM to either not throw those mobs at players, or to change the mechanics. It's not RAW, but screw RAW; Games don't get played on RAW.


Meanwhile, a Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw Swordsage, a Devoted Spirit Crusader, or an Iron Heart Warblade are all comfortably inflicting more than double your damage (70 damage to 150 damage), every turn. It simply is very subpar. And a Setting Sun defensive Swordsage or Stone Dragon anything is STILL better than you. It just plain sucks.
What idiot swordsage goes completely in one style or another, after the opening levels (If even the opening levels)? You've got too many maneuvers to limit yourself to one or another. A lot of the Desert Wind boosts are sexylicious. Offhand, I recall an average of 590ish damage through the levelled up versions of Burning Blade, Dancing Mongoose, Which Dual Boost makes possible, and Time Stands Still. Further, Desert Wind gives something you sorely lack as melee; AoE Capability. Sure, you're subpar going into just Desert Wind, but I'd argue you're subpar if you go into any single one style anyway.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 03:11 PM
Fair enough, but I stand by my point that giving one player 18 in all stats is going to cause problems in the group.

A definitely possibility. however, I've talked to the rest of the group. Every one of them including the player who formerly played a Samurai/Truenamer (and has since learned the error of his ways) agrees that the monk needs some work.

Besides the 18 in all stats, what do you think of the other fixes I proposed?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 03:14 PM
If you're patient, I'll post a core monk guide by the end of this week. That could help, too.

- Giacomo

Please do. Inquiring minds want to have this. Also, how's that build/sheet coming along, Gia? :smallcool:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 03:18 PM
Owned by the thread title.


I know about Fire Resistance; I don't care; For that matter, most of the higher end mobs are immune to Sneak Attack, yet we don't call Rogues useless. When we get to "Mechanics that can be used to cripple characters", I must leave some trust to the GM to either not throw those mobs at players, or to change the mechanics. It's not RAW, but screw RAW; Games don't get played on RAW.


What idiot swordsage goes completely in one style or another, after the opening levels (If even the opening levels)? You've got too many maneuvers to limit yourself to one or another. A lot of the Desert Wind boosts are sexylicious. Offhand, I recall an average of 590ish damage through the levelled up versions of Burning Blade, Dancing Mongoose, Which Dual Boost makes possible, and Time Stands Still. Further, Desert Wind gives something you sorely lack as melee; AoE Capability. Sure, you're subpar going into just Desert Wind, but I'd argue you're subpar if you go into any single one style anyway.

Ahem. There's some bee-ooo-tee-fool things known as spells, weapon crystals, and the truly awe inspiring Penetrating strike. THAT is the reason rogues are not on the level of blasters.

Well, that and the 100d6 SA damage to non immunes, 50d6 to immunes, plus insane ambush attacks.

And Burning blade? Pshaw, Girallon Windmill Flesh rip, or simply Wraithstrike Tattoo or whatever and Avalanche of Blades away.

And notice you said boosts. The strikes, which is what I'm targeting, suck. Hard.

Finally, what the hell d'you need AoE for? You're felling an enemy per turn, guaranteed, if they come en masse. An effective team behind you, and the encounter's over one the first turn.


Also: Crap, Giacomo's in da haus. We should run.

Frosty: As said, unarmed swordsage. Or possibly a Factotum, a Factotum can do ANYTHING well, even monk, if it has enough FoI.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 03:18 PM
Please do. Inquiring minds want to have this. Also, how's that build/sheet coming along, Gia? :smallcool:

It's going to be part of the guide....:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-05, 03:20 PM
*stabs Rutee and the thread title*

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 03:23 PM
It's going to be part of the guide....:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Cue 24-style clock.

http://www.orbona.com/images/small/24clock.gif

Not correct time due to lack of shoopin' skill.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-05, 03:25 PM
Full BAB: yes

Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon (Flaming fist!!!): I'd make it so that the limbs AND the body can be enchanted. Limbs as weapons, and body as armor.

Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR: yes


Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge: I'd edit it so that the extra attacks from flurry can be used during standard and full-round attack actions. Much clearer.


Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day: yes

Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day (Caster level = Druid of the same level) starting at level 10: yes

Lose Slow Fall: I'd leave it, but improve it to work like a limited Feather Fall.

6 skill points per level: yes

All together, it looks like a workable fix so far. I'd let players use it in my games so long as they don't somehow use expolits of the changes for things such as PrC prereqs.

Telonius
2008-05-05, 03:28 PM
The quick fix sounds okay. Here's what I usually do to help Monks keep up.

- Full BAB.
- Enchantable fists and body. Monk counts as a caster for purposes of enchanting his own natural attack and AC. Must spend time/gold/XP as though he were crafting an equivalent-bonus magic item.
- Proficiency in gauntlet. Because it's mighty silly for him not to have it.
- Monk can power attack with his unarmed strike two-handed if he wants, but only when not using the Flurry of Blows ability.
- Other weird Monk abilities stay as they are, because they're part of what makes a Monk a Monk.

Nohwl
2008-05-05, 03:31 PM
how do you get 100d6 sneak attack damage?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 03:32 PM
how do you get 100d6 sneak attack damage?

Ten attacks with 10d6 SA, methinks.

Rutee
2008-05-05, 03:35 PM
Ahem. There's some bee-ooo-tee-fool things known as spells, weapon crystals, and the truly awe inspiring Penetrating strike. THAT is the reason rogues are not on the level of blasters.
Respectively:
If UMD is a core aspect of your ability set you're just a wannabe mage
Never Heard of that crap
Never Heard of that crap.


And Burning blade? Pshaw, Girallon Windmill Flesh rip, or simply Wraithstrike Tattoo or whatever and Avalanche of Blades away.
GWFR caps at 20d6. The uppermost levels of Burning Blade are 3d6 +1/IL an attack. You need 8 attacks to land for GWFR to get 20d6. 8 attacks from the highest level of Burning Blade is 24d6 + 160. GWFR is literally only better on Fire Resistance, which if you have a DW focused SS you had damned well better not be tossing at the PCs anyway. That's like constantly throwing constructs with an Enchanter or Beguiler and Rogue in tow for. Sure, the classes /work/, but the player clearly didn't want to face their achilles all the damn time.


And notice you said boosts. The strikes, which is what I'm targeting, suck. Hard.
The strikes are AoE. If you were expecting them to hit as hard on an individual, you were sorely mistaken to begin with.


Finally, what the hell d'you need AoE for? You're felling an enemy per turn, guaranteed, if they come en masse. An effective team behind you, and the encounter's over one the first turn.
Maybe the wizard banned evocation :smallwink:



Also: Crap, Giacomo's in da haus. We should run.
If you don't pay attention to him, he'll go away.

holywhippet
2008-05-05, 03:38 PM
Give him some +1 shuriken with a returning enchantment. Shuriken work with flurry of blows so even at level 1 he can toss four of them each round. Assuming he is medium sized, they will be doing 1d2 + 1 per hit. If they all hit their target that will mean 8 - 12 damage. If someone casts enlarge on him (making him large sized) that changes to 1d3 + 1 per hit = 8 - 16 damage.

When he starts getting some decent money he can pay for extra enchantments like fire/electrical/sonic/cold damage.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 03:39 PM
Weapon crystals are in Magic Item Compendium and allow rogue to punch through constructs and undead (simpler than taking expensive prestige classes (skullclan Hunter) or feats.

Penetrating Strike is from Players Handbook 2 and turns arrows into line attacks.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-05, 03:42 PM
It makes the monk playable.

Solo
2008-05-05, 03:45 PM
If you don't pay attention to him, he'll go away.

So Giacomo only exists if we believe in him?

tyckspoon
2008-05-05, 03:46 PM
The strikes are AoE. If you were expecting them to hit as hard on an individual, you were sorely mistaken to begin with.


It would be nice if they were at least as good as already below-average wizard evocations, tho. All of the area of effect strikes do poorer damage than an equivalent level wizard spell to start with, and then they don't scale and there aren't any metamagic-style feats that could be used to boost them, so they'll always be behind.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 03:47 PM
So Giacomo only exists if we believe in him?

I do believe in UMD monks! I do! I do!

*claps*

Frosty
2008-05-05, 03:55 PM
At a first glance, way too overpowered. Plus, it's also possible within the existing rules, so no "quick fix" needed...

full BAB? Get divine power effect.
Body enchantable? Get the spells holy sword or greater magic weapon since the monk's unarmed strike are considered manufactured weapons.
Overcome DR? Get Align weapon if you need it, otherwise magic, lawful, and adamantine are yours eventuallly.
Flurry of blows at end of charge/with movement? Get pounce (non-core items allow this, as does polymorph), get a mount. Or, get an intelligent item that does the moving for you. Or get a belt of battle (non-core).
More dimension door? Get items that do it. (wand, cape of mountebank).
Gain airwalk? Forget airwalk. Get a flying item (boots of flying for 16,000 are good) and add your movement enhancement bonus on top. Way better than any air walk.
Lose slow fall? Why? It is much underrated. In dungeons (traps etc.) it's golden. Plus, it adds to your movement total.
6 skill points per level? Why? Be human with INT 14 (INT 18 as intended by you). 7 or 9 skill points per level. It can hardly get better.


Additionally, it depends on what the others in the group play and what sources you admit for character creation (also, what point buy).
At what level will your group start?

If you're patient, I'll post a core monk guide by the end of this week. That could help, too.

- Giacomo

I appreciate the advice, but the player really, REALLY won't be figuring most of this out. Again, he doesn't know any of the items really and he doesn't know how to optimize or use splat-books.

I'm looking for a fix so he can cover all the basics OUT OF THE BOX.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:05 PM
Weapon crystals are in Magic Item Compendium and allow rogue to punch through constructs and undead (simpler than taking expensive prestige classes (skullclan Hunter) or feats.

Penetrating Strike is from Players Handbook 2 and turns arrows into line attacks.


Nope, Penetrating Strike is an ACF in Dungeonscape, which exchanges trapsense for the ability to do half your SA damage to immune enemies if you flank them. Is de oozefoolz, IMO.

Also, Rutee: Well, but you fail at AoE's. Almost ALL monsters have at least 10 fire resistance. That nullifie your low level maneuvers, and halves the effect of the mid level ones. By the time you get the biggest one, Wyrm's Flame, mobs have 30 fire as a staple, so you once again have damage halved. Only Inferno Blast does good, consistent damage, and it STILL is subpar to other strikes, even of much lower level.

Really, It's like Epic Fail Guy, only uncool. It just fails at failing at failing.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 04:07 PM
I appreciate the advice, but the player really, REALLY won't be figuring most of this out. Again, he doesn't know any of the items really and he doesn't know how to optimize or use splat-books.

I'm looking for a fix so he can cover all the basics OUT OF THE BOX.

Hmm. That's why I am asking at what level and with what point buy and what resources available (core or beyond?) you are starting.
It often helps to realise not only what the monk cannot do, but also what the other classes cannot do.
Actually, the monk is quite easy to create since there are not that many things to choose from (a fighter, for instance, has more feats to choose from).

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-05, 04:07 PM
That young wippersnapper is too darned lazy for his own good. He'll never get anywhere if he doesn't put some effort into his character selection. Off with his head, I say!

Back when I started to play DnD, we didn't have any of yoru fancy homebrewed fixes, no siree! I was given the SRD and had to figure out how the character worked by myself! And by god, I didn't go for one of htos eeasy classes for pansies, I played a Cleric, and I liked it, even if I didn't know what I was doing until 5th level!

You kids these days with your internets and your youtube and your MP3 players and your oranges, and your coffee and your nipple piercings and your lesbian pornography with multiple partners and explicit content, and your Half Life and your Dawn of War and your Portals and your AMD microprocessors and your lightbulbs and your Richard Feynman and your Lucasian Professors of Mathamatics and your earphones and your smilie icons and your pin up posters and your iPods....

lord_khaine
2008-05-05, 04:08 PM
i think the main question people forget to ask here, is how optimised is the rest of the group?

if its a standart core group then i dont think he would need anything else than a few build tips and some enchantet gauntlets.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 04:08 PM
Sorry, I was thinking of Penetrating Shot, I'm not as well up on variant class features.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:08 PM
And our Tarantela dancing monkeys. 'Cause even Batman doesn't expect tarantela.

holywhippet
2008-05-05, 04:11 PM
You might want to suggest he take either a level in wizard or cleric first. Both have first level AC improving spells (especially the wizard) as AC is one of the big problems with monks.

lord_khaine
2008-05-05, 04:12 PM
Also, Rutee: Well, but you fail at AoE's. Almost ALL monsters have at least 10 fire resistance. That nullifie your low level maneuvers, and halves the effect of the mid level ones. By the time you get the biggest one, Wyrm's Flame, mobs have 30 fire as a staple, so you once again have damage halved. Only Inferno Blast does good, consistent damage, and it STILL is subpar to other strikes, even of much lower level.

Really, It's like Epic Fail Guy, only uncool. It just fails at failing at failing.

i think you are overestimating how many monsters at higher level you run into that have fire resistance.
ok maybe you have run into mostly monsters who were mostly immune to fire, but thats not what i have experienced.


You kids these days with your internets and your youtube and your MP3 players and your oranges, and your coffee and your nipple piercings and your lesbian pornography with multiple partners and explicit content, and your Half Life and your Dawn of War and your Portals and your AMD microprocessors and your lightbulbs and your Richard Feynman and your Lucasian Professors of Mathamatics and your earphones and your smilie icons and your pin up posters and your iPods....

shouldnt you be out destroying the love of the universe one blast at the time?

Solo
2008-05-05, 04:15 PM
You might want to suggest he take either a level in wizard or cleric first. Both have first level AC improving spells (especially the wizard) as AC is one of the big problems with monks.

The other problems are dealing damage, having enough hit points, and attack bonii.

Let's face it, it will take a lot of work to get the monk's bonii as large as that of, say, a Barbarian's

Better go Specialist Wizard. You'll need a lot of spells.



shouldnt you be out destroying the love of the universe one blast at the time?

Look behind you.

lord_khaine
2008-05-05, 04:16 PM
You might want to suggest he take either a level in wizard or cleric first. Both have first level AC improving spells (especially the wizard) as AC is one of the big problems with monks.

or else he could buy a 1k gp Peal of power, and get the party wizard to buff him with mage armor.

(in the od case where there is no caster with mage armor in the group, then potions of mage armor last 1 hour, and costs only 50 gold.)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 04:19 PM
At a first glance, way too overpowered. Plus, it's also possible within the existing rules, so no "quick fix" needed...

full BAB? Get divine power effect.
Body enchantable? Get the spells holy sword or greater magic weapon since the monk's unarmed strike are considered manufactured weapons.
Overcome DR? Get Align weapon if you need it, otherwise magic, lawful, and adamantine are yours eventuallly.
Flurry of blows at end of charge/with movement? Get pounce (non-core items allow this, as does polymorph), get a mount. Or, get an intelligent item that does the moving for you. Or get a belt of battle (non-core).
More dimension door? Get items that do it. (wand, cape of mountebank).
Gain airwalk? Forget airwalk. Get a flying item (boots of flying for 16,000 are good) and add your movement enhancement bonus on top. Way better than any air walk.
Lose slow fall? Why? It is much underrated. In dungeons (traps etc.) it's golden. Plus, it adds to your movement total.
6 skill points per level? Why? Be human with INT 14 (INT 18 as intended by you). 7 or 9 skill points per level. It can hardly get better.

I believe the point of giving it to the class would be so that he has it all the time, instead of spending most of his wealth, many stat points, and 3-5 rounds buffing just to not be completely useless against the challenges regularly faced. (To say nothing of doing something worthwhile.)

Also, when you make your build, make sure that you can make it at level 5, 10, and 15. I'm running playtests at those levels for other things, so comparing your Monk would be nice.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:20 PM
i think you are overestimating how many monsters at higher level you run into that have fire resistance.
ok maybe you have run into mostly monsters who were mostly immune to fire, but thats not what i have experienced.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Two words plus ampersand: Devils & Demons.

And Dungeon & Dragons.

And Gazebos & Aberrations.

And Magical Beasts & Oozes.

You get the picture.

mithrandir86
2008-05-05, 04:21 PM
Quick fix for a Monk? Play a Swordsage. I apologize if this has been suggested already.

Solo
2008-05-05, 04:21 PM
i think you are overestimating how many monsters at higher level you run into that have fire resistance.

Fire resistance is the most common energy resistance, is it not?

Frosty
2008-05-05, 04:24 PM
Hmm. That's why I am asking at what level and with what point buy and what resources available (core or beyond?) you are starting.
It often helps to realise not only what the monk cannot do, but also what the other classes cannot do.
Actually, the monk is quite easy to create since there are not that many things to choose from (a fighter, for instance, has more feats to choose from).

- Giacomo

Starting at level 9. No more than 1/4 of starting wealth on any one item. Most books in 3.5 allowed, but the player himself probably won't look too much beyond Core and PHB II. Point buy is 32 pt-buy for everyone else so far.


i think the main question people forget to ask here, is how optimised is the rest of the group?

Goliath Bullrush-crasher.
Changeling Chameleon McFactotum
Half-orc "Mork" The Radiant Servant of Gruumsh.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 04:27 PM
Respectively:
If UMD is a core aspect of your ability set you're just a wannabe mage

Having a wand of Golem Strike does not make you a wannabe mage. It makes you a rogue, with sneak attack, who wants to sneak attack, golems.

Replace golem above with grave/undead, and plant/plant for similar results.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:28 PM
Changeling Chameleon McFactotum

'Nuff said. The monk is soooooooo ****ed up.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 04:44 PM
'Nuff said. The monk is soooooooo ****ed up.

??? Explain.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 04:47 PM
*One Improved Unarmed Strike later...*

Monk: Hey, what 'appened? The chameleon is being better than me at unarmed fighting!...
Chameleon: *Does a mighty round of hits with added damage and AB, then casts Solid fog, THEN casts pink tentacles*. Sorry, you sayin' sumthin'?
Monk: And everything....

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 05:02 PM
Starting at level 9. No more than 1/4 of starting wealth on any one item. Most books in 3.5 allowed, but the player himself probably won't look too much beyond Core and PHB II. Point buy is 32 pt-buy for everyone else so far.

Hmm. What about the whisper gnome by emeraldstreak?
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13861561&postcount=191
It's 10th level, but you can likely figure out how for your beginner player to build it for 9th level and it's pretty easy to handle.
Plus, with a 32-point buy, you could put in an INT of 14 and CON of 16 to make a resilient and good scout kind of monk.


Goliath Bullrush-crasher.
Changeling Chameleon McFactotum
Half-orc "Mork" The Radiant Servant of Gruumsh.

Both good agile fighter and scout as outlined by a 32-point-buy emeralstreak whisper gnome monk lvl 9 version appear to fill a good niche in the group you provided.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-05, 05:15 PM
Why does the name emeraldstreak ring bells?

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 05:19 PM
Why does the name emeraldstreak ring bells?

As far as I recall, it rings bells for two opposite reasons:

1) emeraldstreak was allegedly quite offensive in his posts (calling various posters a noob, for instance)
2) emeraldstreak pointed out the obvious: monks are quite powerful outside core, and key to this is optinmising their base damage.

- Giacomo

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 05:20 PM
It's because your devastating loss at optimising against such a pro scarred those thirteen letters into your head.

He's won contests, you know.

Rutee
2008-05-05, 05:23 PM
So Giacomo only exists if we believe in him?

Exactly, m'dear.


Having a wand of Golem Strike does not make you a wannabe mage. It makes you a rogue, with sneak attack, who wants to sneak attack, golems.

Replace golem above with grave/undead, and plant/plant for similar results.
Oh Splatspam, is there nothing you can't do? Just take off construct immunities to SA if you were planning on letting the players bypass it that 'easily'; They don't make sense anyway. If you /have/ an anatomy, you have weak points that can be targetted in it.


Also, Rutee: Well, but you fail at AoE's. Almost ALL monsters have at least 10 fire resistance. That nullifie your low level maneuvers, and halves the effect of the mid level ones. By the time you get the biggest one, Wyrm's Flame, mobs have 30 fire as a staple, so you once again have damage halved. Only Inferno Blast does good, consistent damage, and it STILL is subpar to other strikes, even of much lower level.

Yeah, and most upper CR Mobs are Demons and Devils and the like. Again; I don't give a damn what's in the MM. Most of it's garbage or weird anyway.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 05:23 PM
2) emeraldstreak pointed out the obvious: monks are quite powerful outside core, and key to this is optinmising their base damage.
- Giacomo
http://www.greensmilies.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/smiley_emoticons_rofl3.gif

May I introduce you to the wonders of relative motion?

Vortling
2008-05-05, 05:26 PM
Hmm. What about the whisper gnome by emeraldstreak?
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13861561&postcount=191
It's 10th level, but you can likely figure out how for your beginner player to build it for 9th level and it's pretty easy to handle.
Plus, with a 32-point buy, you could put in an INT of 14 and CON of 16 to make a resilient and good scout kind of monk.



Both good agile fighter and scout as outlined by a 32-point-buy emeralstreak whisper gnome monk lvl 9 version appear to fill a good niche in the group you provided.

- Giacomo
This won't work. It requires several crucial items that cost more than the 9000 gp per item limit that Frosty has stated.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 05:28 PM
*One Improved Unarmed Strike later...*

Monk: Hey, what 'appened? The chameleon is being better than me at unarmed fighting!...
Chameleon: *Does a mighty round of hits with added damage and AB, then casts Solid fog, THEN casts pink tentacles*. Sorry, you sayin' sumthin'?
Monk: And everything....

Pls post a non-monk chamelon character superior to the whisper gnome monk above at 9th level at unarmed fighting. I'm eager to see that :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Frosty
2008-05-05, 05:30 PM
And I'm not even sure where Whisper Gnomes are from. I've got a lot of 3.5 books, but except Eberron, I mostly do not have campaign-specific stuff.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 05:31 PM
Pls post a non-monk chamelon character superior to the whisper gnome monk above at 9th level at unarmed fighting. I'm eager to see that :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Actually, I'm more interested in the pink tentacles. Where the hell is THAT from?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 05:31 PM
And I'm not even sure where Whisper Gnomes are from. I've got a lot of 3.5 books, but except Eberron, I mostly do not have campaign-specific stuff.

Races of Stone.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-05, 05:38 PM
It's a what happens when you cross breed gnomes with halflings, only better than both parents in every possible way. It's the freaking kwaisatz haderach (sp) of small sized character races.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 05:40 PM
The pink tentacles were created by a munchkin, and were not intended for public use. 'Nuff said.


Giacomo: Could we have one more level? Just so that I can spend the floating feat that Chameleon gives on Improved Unarmed strike. Else, the build will eb good, but not so kickassely good. Just simply awesome.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-05, 05:49 PM
He'll never learn if you baby him.

:smalltongue: Now I wanna see Solo's guide to proper parenting. :smalltongue:

It probably starts as: "Firmly tell the child you need 20 phrenic lion pelts from the Demon Wastes in 2 hours. Less time is better. Hand him exactly one scroll of sleep. Giving anything more is pampering."

Solo
2008-05-05, 05:50 PM
As far as I recall, it rings bells for two opposite reasons:

1) emeraldstreak was allegedly quite offensive in his posts (calling various posters a noob, for instance)
2) emeraldstreak pointed out the obvious: monks are quite powerful outside core, and key to this is optinmising their base damage.

- Giacomo

1) The mods appearently thought so, as they seemed to have scrubbed a few of his posts.
2) He linked us to a build he make on the Charop boards, which contained comments by other Charop members on how bad it was.

Just fyi.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 05:52 PM
This won't work. It requires several crucial items that cost more than the 9000 gp per item limit that Frosty has stated.

True. Which means that greater might wallop will be item'ed at lower level, and thus overall 16d6 is not going to be the damage reached, but rather something like 1d10 (small with superior umared strike), 2d6 (enlarge effect), 3d6 (INA), and two size increases from greater mighty wallop at lvl 8, for a grand total of 6d6.
Not too bad at level (note that a level 9 rogue only does sneak + 5d6), in particular considering that by level 11, it will skyrocket. The money saved on monk's belt and lower-level greater mighty wallop item could go to stealth.

- Giacomo

Talya
2008-05-05, 05:53 PM
Let him be a gestalt monk//fighter. That almost brings it up to the level of other non-gestalt melee classes.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 05:54 PM
Giacomo: Could we have one more level? Just so that I can spend the floating feat that Chameleon gives on Improved Unarmed strike. Else, the build will eb good, but not so kickassely good. Just simply awesome.

By all means.:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 05:58 PM
1) The mods appearently thought so, as they seemed to have scrubbed a few of his posts.

So it seems.


2) He linked us to a build he make on the Charop boards, which contained comments by other Charop members on how bad it was.

Just fyi.

Nobody actually was able to show anything wrong about that build. They only got angry for being shown wrong (some of them displaying quite low knowledge about monk class abilites and how grapple and size damage stacking works). I read the thread...(with great interest, although it was non-core...):smallsmile:
The only thing I would bring up is the use of custom items - but as soon as you use non-core material, there is no real reason not to use the magic item creation guidelines, is there?

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-05, 06:00 PM
They only got angry for being shown wrong

iirc, at least one person objected on the basis that basing a build on consumable items is a bad idea, unless there is a portable "Ye Olde Magik Shoppe" following the character through metropolises, countrysides, blazing deserts, cavenous caves, and across the planes.

I am paraphrasing him in a more polite manner.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 06:03 PM
They only got angry for being shown wrong (some of them displaying quite low knowledge about monk class abilites and how grapple and size damage stacking works).
- Giacomo

Uh huh. It couldn't possibly be the fact that he refused to tell us what his builds were, instead saying that 'if we were any good, we'd know them anyway', and churning out arguments to authority (his own) like some kind of damn machine.

Solo
2008-05-05, 06:05 PM
Or that he claimed to have won contests and awards.... while refusing to tell us what exactly he won.

Of course, I am not saying he was lying. He could have won an award for worst optimizer in the universe and still truthfully claim to be an award winning optimizer.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 06:09 PM
By all means.:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo


Build:

Human.

Level 1: Able Learner, Font of Inspiration
All further levels: FoI.

Use the second level chameleon floating feat for Improved Unarmed strike. if you feel like you want monklike damage, just get Impstrike as your first level feat and use the floating feat for Superior Unarmed strike. Use a Monk's belt.

Invisibility.

Do an insane number of SA dice.


Or, for a toe to toe build:

Standard strike the monk. Use IP to boost damage, AB, and AC. If you want to end the battle soon, use IP for Cunning surges.


Done. There's the build. Nothing else necessary. You can't hit me, I will hit harder and more accurrately, and I have what amounts to a more powerful Flurry of blows.

And I'm not even using the casting or chameleon focus. Else, I enlarge person or Giant size and it all goes to hell.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 06:09 PM
Of course, I am not saying he was lying. He could have won an award for worst optimizer in the universe and still truthfully claim to be an award winning optimizer.

It's more than that. The two attributes of 'award-winning' and 'optimiser' aren't even connected by the phrase 'award winning optimiser'. He could be just some guy who optimises stuff, and won the toy car driver's license at Legoland.

He did, however, refer to the fact that he won his awards 'on several boards'. Right.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 06:09 PM
My players are also notoriously stingy. Basing a build based on consumables would not...go over well, despite its potential effectiveness. i tried telling them to buy wands and stuff, but they insist on saving up for permanent magic items.


Let him be a gestalt monk//fighter. That almost brings it up to the level of other non-gestalt melee classes.

I thought about that, but I'd rather have critique on my possible quick-fix. so far I've got one person saying that the fix is great, and Sir Giacomo sayng it'll overpower the Monk. I'd appreciate a bit more feedback :)

Besides, last time I suggested two weak classes Gestaled together, the end result was only made of more fail. It was a Monk/Samurai Gestalt.

Vortling
2008-05-05, 06:10 PM
True. Which means that greater might wallop will be item'ed at lower level, and thus overall 16d6 is not going to be the damage reached, but rather something like 1d10 (small with superior umared strike), 2d6 (enlarge effect), 3d6 (INA), and two size increases from greater mighty wallop at lvl 8, for a grand total of 6d6.
Not too bad at level (note that a level 9 rogue only does sneak + 5d6), in particular considering that by level 11, it will skyrocket. The money saved on monk's belt and lower-level greater mighty wallop item could go to stealth.

- Giacomo
Given the rest of the party roster:

Goliath Bullrush-crasher.
Changeling Chameleon McFactotum
Half-orc "Mork" The Radiant Servant of Gruumsh.

Where is the enlarge effect coming from? Also could you detail what the cost is for that item of greater mighty wallop and how you constructed that item for under 9000 gp? Thanks

Frosty
2008-05-05, 06:12 PM
Build:

Human.

Level 1: Able Learner, Font of Inspiration
All further levels: FoI.

Use the second level chameleon floating feat for Improved Unarmed strike. if you feel like you want monklike damage, just get Impstrike as your first level feat and use the floating feat for Superior Unarmed strike. Use a Monk's belt.

Invisibility.

Do an insane number of SA dice.


Or, for a toe to toe build:

Standard strike the monk. Use IP to boost damage, AB, and AC. If you want to end the battle soon, use IP for Cunning surges.


Done. There's the build. Nothing else necessary. You can't hit me, I will hit harder and more accurrately, and I have what amounts to a more powerful Flurry of blows.

And I'm not even using the casting or chameleon focus. Else, I enlarge person or Giant size and it all goes to hell.

A bit more specific please? You have 32 pt-buy. How many levels in Factutum? how many in chameleon?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 06:16 PM
A bit more specific please? You have 32 pt-buy. How many levels in Factutum? how many in chameleon?

To be honest, there's little else that matters.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 06:16 PM
Given the rest of the party roster:

Goliath Bullrush-crasher.
Changeling Chameleon McFactotum
Half-orc "Mork" The Radiant Servant of Gruumsh.

Where is the enlarge effect coming from? Also could you detail what the cost is for that item of greater mighty wallop and how you constructed that item for under 9000 gp? Thanks

The Chameleon can cast spells if she uses Arcane Focus for the day.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 06:17 PM
To be honest, there's little else that matters.

Well it's that Font of Inspiration is limited by your Int modifier, so it matters a bit.

Oh yeah, I usually allow 2 Flaws, if that changes anything.

I wanted you guys to be more specific becuase Giacomo may not be familiar witht he Factotum at all.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 06:19 PM
Well it's that Font of Inspiration is limited by your Int modifier, so it matters a bit.

Oh yeah, I usually allow 2 Flaws, if that changes anything.

I wanted you guys to be more specific becuase Giacomo may not be familiar witht he Factotum at all.

18 Int +2 from levelling, that's five fonts right there. Making 1+2+3+4+5=15 bonus IP right there.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 06:19 PM
Where is the enlarge effect coming from?

Items. Custom x/day, Potions. Wand (750 gp). Your pick.


Also could you detail what the cost is for that item of greater mighty wallop and how you constructed that item for under 9000 gp? Thanks

(spell level (3) x CL (8) x 1,800)/5= 360x24=8640
a 1/day command word item.
Or, you could get a partially charged wand.

- Giacomo

Frosty
2008-05-05, 06:21 PM
5 fonts...that's 1+2+3+4+5 = 15 extra Inspiration points per encounter. That's a lotta sneak attack damage...

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 06:24 PM
Items. Custom x/day, Potions. Wand (750 gp). Your pick.



(spell level (3) x CL (8) x 1,800)/5= 360x24=8640
a 1/day command word item.
Or, you could get a partially charged wand.

- Giacomo

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Does anyone get the feeling that we're stuck in a groundhog day-esque time warp?

Solo
2008-05-05, 06:24 PM
Or, you could get a partially charged wand.


No. No you can not. By RAW you can only make a wand with full charges.

If an adventuring party sold a half charged wand of whatever to Ye Olde Magik Shoppe, you could buy it at a discount, but that will only happen if the DM wants it to. It is not to be relied upon.

Feel free to abandon this erroneous position at any time.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 06:25 PM
A bit more specific please? You have 32 pt-buy. How many levels in Factutum? how many in chameleon?

18 in INT. Every other scored bumped to 10, or similar. Whatever is left goes to STR.

8 Fac/2 Cham.

Also, those 15 SA? It's not even counting natural IP, which ups it a bit more. Simply put, I'm going to win.

And that's without Arcane cheese, such as using Giant size? (That Wu jen spell that made you colossal) and the like.

And no items but a monk's belt either.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 06:26 PM
My players are also notoriously stingy. Basing a build based on consumables would not...go over well, despite its potential effectiveness. i tried telling them to buy wands and stuff, but they insist on saving up for permanent magic items.


1/day items is all the whisper gnome monk needs. And cheap enlarge consumables (like wands of enlarge). As the monk levels up, either increase number of uses/day or the power of the size-damage-increasing items.

Plus, get some elven cloak and the whisper gnome would have a hide mod. of something like
+12 ranks (maxed)
+ 6 DEX
+ 4 race
+4 size
+2 circumstance (masterwork clothes)
+ 5 cloak
= +33 hide mod. At 9th (!) level. This guy can run his 240ft in a round and still be difficult to see (as in: total concealment).

- Giacomo

Rutee
2008-05-05, 06:26 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Does anyone get the feeling that we're stuck in a groundhog day-esque time warp?

*Throws a toaster in the bathtub*

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 06:27 PM
18 in INT. Every other scored bumped to 10, or similar. Whatever is left goes to STR.

8 Fac/2 Cham.

Also, those 15 SA? It's not even counting natural IP, which ups it a bit more. Simply put, I'm going to win.

And that's without Arcane cheese, such as using Giant size? (That Wu jen spell that made you colossal) and the like.

And no items but a monk's belt either.

Also, if Solo's gonna be playing fast and loose with the item creation guidelines, you can have your items of use activated wraithstrike and true strike too.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-05, 06:30 PM
No. No you can not. By RAW you can only make a wand with full charges.

If an adventuring party sold a half charged wand of whatever to Ye Olde Magik Shoppe, you could buy it at a discount, but that will only happen if the DM wants it to. It is not to be relied upon.

Feel free to abandon this erroneous position at any time.

So you changed your original position on this? Too sad...:smallfrown:

Where is the logic behind being able to sell but not to buy? Why should there be a market only for fully charged wands? Will characters only buy brand new swords +1? I wonder...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-05, 06:32 PM
So your changed your original position on this?Too sad...:smallfrown:
Still assuming the position, I see.
Too sad...:smallfrown:



Where is the logic behind being able to sell but not to buy? Why should there be a market only for fully charged wands? Will characters only buy brand new swords +1? I wonder...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Giacomo, ever gone to a flea market or pawn shop in search of a specific kind of, say, toaster?

Ever notice how it's really hard to find that specific kind of toaster, even though people do sell it to pawn shops?

Just because something is sold second hand doesn't mean you're going to be able to find it second hand.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 06:32 PM
1/day items is all the whisper gnome monk needs. And cheap enlarge consumables (like wands of enlarge). As the monk levels up, either increase number of uses/day or the power of the size-damage-increasing items.

Plus, get some elven cloak and the whisper gnome would have a hide mod. of something like
+12 ranks (maxed)
+ 6 DEX
+ 4 race
+4 size
+2 circumstance (masterwork clothes)
+ 5 cloak
= +33 hide mod. At 9th (!) level. This guy can run his 240ft in a round and still be difficult to see (as in: total concealment).

- Giacomo

And then I can use Arcane sight, I believe, to spot you because I can sense your cloak. Or was it detect magic? You'll have concealment, but that can be negated.

Scribe: Meh, none of those. They'll be semi-useless, since the monk gets to apply Wis to touch attacks. I'd much prefer Web or Grease. With that, he's screwed.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 06:36 PM
Still assuming the position, I see.
Too sad...:smallfrown:



Giacomo, ever gone to a flea market or pawn shop in search of a specific kind of, say, toaster?

Ever notice how it's really hard to find that specific kind of toaster, even though people do sell it to pawn shops?

Just because something is sold second hand doesn't mean you're going to be able to find it second hand.

Nah, remember that Giacomo has his train of followers following him about, doing his every whim; filling up his rings of spell storing, buffing him, and hand toasting the finest wheaten bread.

Because, y'know, he took leadership at 6th level.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 06:42 PM
Hmm...I assume Leadership is banned, right? 'Cause I COULD use a CW samurai to cheer me onwards to glory.

Vortling
2008-05-05, 06:43 PM
1/day items is all the whisper gnome monk needs. And cheap enlarge consumables (like wands of enlarge). As the monk levels up, either increase number of uses/day or the power of the size-damage-increasing items.

Plus, get some elven cloak and the whisper gnome would have a hide mod. of something like
+12 ranks (maxed)
+ 6 DEX
+ 4 race
+4 size
+2 circumstance (masterwork clothes)
+ 5 cloak
= +33 hide mod. At 9th (!) level. This guy can run his 240ft in a round and still be difficult to see (as in: total concealment).

- Giacomo

I don't know how many encounters Frosty runs per day, but by your own admission that monk loses half its damage potential after the first fight is over. That doesn't seem very useful. Remember that rogue you mentioned who had less sneak attack damage for the first fight? He's now got 2d6 damage more than you. Also, what rules are you using that let people improved already crafted magic items? Book and page number would be appreciated.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 06:45 PM
Hmm...I assume Leadership is banned, right? 'Cause I COULD use a CW samurai to cheer me onwards to glory.

Why bother? Just do what Giacomo does, and have a wizard fight for you.

It's still you winning, and leadership is fine, because, remember, it's only banned because casters fear it. Oh, and it's core, so it's totally balanced and fair. Yah.

Solo
2008-05-05, 07:05 PM
I figured ya'll could use a morale booster, so I have made a Craft: Awesome Post check to make a song. (+2 to checks for Optimization)



The Optimizationale
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxQ7GUEPsrU)

Arise, ye posters, from ye slumbers!
Arise, ye lurkers of the forum!
For reason in revolt now thunders
A better day shall come!
No more falsehood's chains shall bind us,
Eager masses, arise! Arise!
We’ll change henceforth the old consensus
And spurn it's dust to optimize.

So comrades, come rally
And the last fight, let us face
The Optimizationale
Unite the forum base.
'Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The optimizers perfect
Shall be the forum base

We want no condescending "saviors"
To rule us from their judgment hall,
We members ask not for their favors
Let us consult for all:
To make the phony disgorge his fallacy
And give to all a happier lot.
Each at his forge must do his duty
And strike the iron while it’s hot!

So come brothers and sisters,
For the struggle carries on.
The Optimizationale,
Unites the world in song.
So comrades, come rally,
For this is the time and place!
The Optimizers rightly,
Unite us all in pace.

Bandededed
2008-05-05, 07:08 PM
Note: I'm ignoring just about everything between the original post and this one. Most of them have gone off topic


Tell me what you think about a quick-fix:

Full BAB
Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon (Flaming fist!!!)
Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR.
Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge.
Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day.
Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day (Caster level = Druid of the same level) starting at level 10
Lose Slow Fall.
6 skill points per level.

Would this be good enough to let the Monk keep up? I also also give him 18 in all stats.

I've done a monk fix or two in the past, and my last one (quite like this one; shameless plug :smallbiggrin:) seemed to go over well - which doesn't really mean anything but...

Full BAB: Perfect. As a melee heavy class, the monk should be able to hit anything that a barbarian can, just with his fists.

Body enchantable: Well, that's your call. I just allowed them to use gloves or handwraps that had been enchanted as weapons. I also allowed them to wear light armor and keep their abilities, though they had to spend a feat on the proficiency if they really wanted it.

Unarmed strikes overcoming DR: With the original abilities, don't they overcome most DR's anyway? Sounds nice to have, though, if they don't.

Flurry as a standard action: I did this too. I envisioned the monk as a get in - whack - get out character, and without this one of their main attacking strengths is unaccessable.

Dim door: This was suggested to me, and it works out really nicely. Something else I did though, was to allow the monk to act after if they used it first. I think, if you're going to have a spell-like ability, it should be at least slightly better than it's original version. Otherwise, you could do the same thing with (a rather expensive) magic item.

Airwalk: This doesn't strike me as particularly useful, but that could just be my experience talking, since I haven't encountered that many areas where it would be greatly useful. If it will be, though, by all means.

Lose slow fall: Man I hate that ability. Look, with a contingent item (a wall) I can underperform a first level spell at level 20!!! wait a second...

6 skill points: Very nice, especially because a monk has some really good skills, and wants to max all of them. Especially if s/he is playing as the party's scout.

All of your changes should make the monk keep up well enough on its own, played correctly. Even with these changes, low(er) hitpoints will spell doom if they player wants to go head to head with monsters, but hit and run is nice. Allow s/he to get Spring attack as a monk feat, if s/he would like it. Throw ranks in tumble and get some movement increasing boots and you've got it pretty much made.

All the 18's are a little bit of overkill, by my estimation. 18's for Wis and str, 16 for dex and con, a 10 for int, and an 8 for cha should fit right. Equivalent of a 44 point buy, but monks don't even have 10 useful class skills, and nothing they should be doing is dependent on Cha.

What really needs to happen is for you and s/he to sit down and make sure s/he has a good strategy for keeping his/her monk alive. Have him/her co-ordinate with the other players and everything should work out alright.

Edit: Tch, that got long when I wasn't looking. Spoilered for readability.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 07:10 PM
Well, the 1/day just isn't going to cut it. I average 3 encounters per day, because I favor tougher than normal enemies.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 07:23 PM
Rogue 5/Chameleon 5,

Stats: Dragonborn (Wings) Water Orc.

Str 26
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 6

Feats: Able Learner, Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack as floating feat.

Items: Monk's Belt, Gauntlets, Full Plate That's all because I'm lazy and don't need anything else.

Spells active: Girallon's Blessing, Fuse Arms, Create Magic Tattoo, Heroics for Armor Proficiency, Ironwood, Cat's Grace, False Life, Spikes, Haste, Jaws of the Moray, Heroism, Enlarge Person, Greater Magic Fang, Enlarge Person, Magic Vestment, Barkskin.

Focus, Arcane then Divine.

Attack Rountine: +20/+14/+14/+12 (Power attacking for full) doing 6d8+28 damage per attack. Average of 55. (Not including any SA.)

So doing 1 less damage per attack with a higher attack bonus on more attacks.

I also have: Exact same AC.
More HP.
The ability to cast Divine Power 1/day, just in case (gives me four more BAB to power attack with, and a +3 to hit and damage.)
Various spells to cast on allies.
Better skills.
The ability to adapt my build to fighting even better with a THW.
Versatility in that I can change to do any number of things.
The ability to fly.
Lots of money to still spend.
Faster progression of power, as I level my power increases much faster then his, since he is already capped out on size increases to damage, whereas all my abilities from AC to damage increase as I gain CL (faster then any other caster too) and I gain new spells like Greater Heroism or Righteous Might.
And 3d6 SA, don't forget that.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 07:46 PM
You need to be changeling, human, or dopplganger to get Able Learner. It is also a requirement to be human, changeling, or doppleganger to be a Chameleon.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-05, 08:11 PM
Which is the reason you ALWAYS pick Factotum when you go chameleon, with no exceptions. A Factotum can do anything a rogue can do, better, more consistently, and it can even do OTHER things.

Not to mention, the point is to make a better MONK. Not an idiot who relies on buffs. My chameleon manages to be a better monk with only a monk's belt. Your has twenty buffs up, so it's as bad as Giacomo's.

Not to mention, also, that if you use a chameleon, why use so many buffs? One Giant size later, you're a better monk, full stop.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-05, 09:04 PM
Which is the reason you ALWAYS pick Factotum when you go chameleon, with no exceptions. A Factotum can do anything a rogue can do, better, more consistently, and it can even do OTHER things.

Not to mention, the point is to make a better MONK. Not an idiot who relies on buffs. My chameleon manages to be a better monk with only a monk's belt. Your has twenty buffs up, so it's as bad as Giacomo's.

Not to mention, also, that if you use a chameleon, why use so many buffs? One Giant size later, you're a better monk, full stop.

How about because I'm a Chameleon, and therefore have spells from every list as my main class feature and a CL progression faster then any other caster? thus making all my buffs long duration buffs that I can keep up for multiple encounters? How about because the idea was to use a Chameleon to be a better unarmed fighter (not a better Monk) and not to use a Factotums 5 standard actions to be better at unarmed fighting? How about because at level 10 you can't cast Giant Size?

Any of those actually matter?

Talya
2008-05-05, 09:20 PM
I thought about that, but I'd rather have critique on my possible quick-fix. so far I've got one person saying that the fix is great, and Sir Giacomo sayng it'll overpower the Monk. I'd appreciate a bit more feedback :)


Okay.

Full BAB - Absolutely. I'm a big fan of this, as I've said in a couple monk fix threads. It's probably better than what I prefer...and that's switching to 3.0's monk BAB progression, but then adding flurry on top of it. (So they'd be +15/+15/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3 at 20.)

Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon - Yes, as above.

Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR - May not be necessarily, if one can use the "metalline" property on their body due to it being enchantable.

Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge - yes. This is also something I have suggested in other threads.

Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day - Sure, then +1 at levels 16, 20
Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day - They might be able to get that themselves with martial study 3x + martial stance. I don't think it's necessary. If they want to fly, play a raptoran, or get an item of fly.

Lose Slow Fall. - No.

6 skill points per level. - Yes.

Furthermore: Allow them a way to add Wisdom to damage.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-05, 09:37 PM
How about these for fixes:
Monk abilities are able to be used in light armor (sure it can be abused, but it probably won't right?)
BAB should remain 3/4 me thinks.

Monks should not focus themselves on damage, barbarians and rogues should do such things (However, I will not deny the fun of rolling lots of dice or adding obscene power attack damage). Monks should focus on other combat tactics (trip and grapple seem good, but bab is low). Lets try the following:


Changling: Half Minotaur (Level adjustment buy off)
Monk3/Fighter2**/Fist of the Forest3/Warshaper2*
*I am going to assume the small amount of xp needed to wipe the LA away will be obtained very quickly.
**Any Full BAB will work

Feats:
Mb) Stunning Fist
Mb)Combat Reflexes*
1)Great Fortitude
3)Power Attack (ick, I know)
Fb)Superior Unarmed Strike
Fb)Martial Maneuver (Sudden Leap)**
6)Snap Kick**
9)Quick Draw**
*Or Deflect Arrows, I feel combat reflexes is better
**Free Feats

Items:
Fanged Ring
Monks Belt
Amulet of Health would be nice
Item of Mighty Wallop (Use activated or otherwise)
Item of Thornskined (Use activated or otherwise)
Permanent enlarge person
(My gold pricing is off I am sure, but these are things to look forward to)

Damage would be
12 levels of monk + 2 steps=2d10 +1 Size (Lage, Half Minotaur)+1 Size (Warshaper) +1 Size Improved Natural Attack (Fanged Ring)+1 (Enlarge)+ 1 (Mighty Wallop) +1 Thorned Skin=28d8+3d6 (Estimate from the back of MM3) effective Colossal++ 20th level monk

Tactics: Sudden Leap and flurry of blows, the first one being using stunning fist and snap kick. Possibly quick draw some nets and throw them on people to entangle them. Wisdom+Con to AC, using the changling's ability to keep the warshaper's bonuses on all day long. Look into skills and skill tricks.

Notes for customizing:
Normally this monster is huge sized (combat reflexes to get the most of AoOs of multiple people), he will have a reasonable bonus to grapple and trip attempts (Definitely change the feats around if you are headed this way). It would be more beneficial to focus more on tripping and screwing (with nets, marbles, AoOs) then damage, but this was my shot at the conversation.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 10:16 PM
Ok, if you've got to use the Half Minotaur as an argument, you've lost already. nobody in their right minds allows the use of Half Minotaur. That's like saying a Feral, Lolth-touched Mineral Warrior Goliath can do good unarmed damage.

Rutee
2008-05-05, 10:20 PM
I wonder if this, along with a few other threads, is a sign of a shift away from "Strict RAW". ..Nah.

NecroRebel
2008-05-05, 10:26 PM
Also, multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. In other words, you count as Huge for that build, no bigger, which of course decreases your damage to... 3d10+STR? I think that's right. Regardless, the difference between Colossal++ and Huge unarmed damage is going to be big, and your damage will still be nowhere near impressive.

As for Grappling and Tripping, it does not appear that you can outgrapple or outtrip a Fighter or other class built for those purposes, even built as you are for that, which means that the Monk is still outclassed. By the Fighter. Which says something about Monk power (namely, there isn't much).

Frosty
2008-05-05, 10:46 PM
Okay.

Full BAB - Absolutely. I'm a big fan of this, as I've said in a couple monk fix threads. It's probably better than what I prefer...and that's switching to 3.0's monk BAB progression, but then adding flurry on top of it. (So they'd be +15/+15/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3 at 20.)

Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon - Yes, as above.

Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR - May not be necessarily, if one can use the "metalline" property on their body due to it being enchantable.

Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge - yes. This is also something I have suggested in other threads.

Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day - Sure, then +1 at levels 16, 20
Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day - They might be able to get that themselves with martial study 3x + martial stance. I don't think it's necessary. If they want to fly, play a raptoran, or get an item of fly.

Lose Slow Fall. - No.

6 skill points per level. - Yes.

Furthermore: Allow them a way to add Wisdom to damage.

Thanks for commenting <(^.^< )

Do you really feel they need Slow wall fall though?

Talya
2008-05-05, 10:55 PM
Thanks for commenting <(^.^< )

Do you really feel they need Slow wall fall though?

Need? No. But it's good monk flavor, and you don't need to take anything away for them to have it.

lord_khaine
2008-05-06, 01:51 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Two words plus ampersand: Devils & Demons.

And Dungeon & Dragons.

And Gazebos & Aberrations.

And Magical Beasts & Oozes.

You get the picture.

ok i think all the devils and demons have FR.

none of the dungeons, and only 2 of the standart dragons have it.

gazebo's are pretty weak against fire, and i cant remember many abarations who are resistant.

also i dont think there are any core magical beasts and aberations who are resistant.

so i guess you were laughting because you found out how few standart creatures actualy have fire resistance.

Rutee
2008-05-06, 01:54 AM
Thanks for commenting <(^.^< )

Do you really feel they need Slow wall fall though?

Oh right, I hadn't commented. Your OP sounds like it'll make them /close/ to their Fighter.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 06:12 AM
How about because I'm a Chameleon, and therefore have spells from every list as my main class feature and a CL progression faster then any other caster? thus making all my buffs long duration buffs that I can keep up for multiple encounters? How about because the idea was to use a Chameleon to be a better unarmed fighter (not a better Monk) and not to use a Factotums 5 standard actions to be better at unarmed fighting? How about because at level 10 you can't cast Giant Size?

Any of those actually matter?

No, actually they don't. The idea is to win by unarmed prowess and martial skill, not because of your 1337 buffs which put you on the Giacomo "I win because my caster buddy took pity on me" level. My very simple chameleon build does that, yours doesn't. And it's STILL weaker than what I could do with a singleclassed factotum.

Next time, TRY to make a good martial character, not a buffzilla. My chameleon is better than the other guys presented here when compared without half-a-dozen buffs and magic items up, and will still be able to do more things than most of the other one trick ponies.

Khaine: I honestly don't care.

Frosty: Yep, the fix sounds good, but it'd be much better to simply add Intuitive attack and possibly invent Wis to damage and be done with it. Oh, and flurry works with any attack, sorta like a Dancing Mongoose.

Solo
2008-05-06, 07:43 AM
so i guess you were laughting because you found out how few standart creatures actualy have fire resistance.

Wow. Just wow.

Do you not know that fire resistance is the most common energy resistance?

I mean seriously, have you cracked open a Monster Manual lately and done some research to back up your opinion, or are you just spewing?

I went to the SRD and googled Fire Resistance on it. Want to know what I came up with?

Fire Resistant:
Demilich
Scorpionfolk
Demons
Abomination (subtype)
Dromite
Formian
Arrowhawk
Thorciasid
Genie
Monstrous Centipede
Angel
Sirrush
Tojanida
Frost Giant Jarl (ring)
Lavawight
Planetouched (Aasimar and Tieflings)
Ghaele
Fiendish Animals
Cerebrilith
Bralani
Half-Fiend
Astral Construct
Udoroot
Bodak
Umbral Blot (Blackball)
Basilisk
Shambling Mound
Lillend
Assassin Vine


Fire Immune:
Xorn
Azer
Devils
Intellect Devourer
Crysmal
Tarrasque
Shape Of Fire
Genie
Astral Construct
Ravid
Rast
Fire Elemental, Primal
Salamander
Hellhound
Half Dragon
Dragon, True
Hydra
Fire Giant
Dragon Turtle
Night Hag
Ooze

You should try doing research sometime, lord khaine. It can be very rewarding - moreso than ignorance, infact.

Eagerly awaiting your next reply, and eager to see how you manage to extricate yourself out of this one,

-Solo

Nebo_
2008-05-06, 08:03 AM
And that's just the SRD. Just think of the amount of monsters in other books that boast a resistance to fire.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-06, 08:05 AM
It hurts my brain to read this thread.

That being said: Frosty, if this person enjoys playing a monk... let them play a monk. If you feel the need to "fix" the monk... then do so... but they want to play a monk..

And by play a monk, I mean... monk. Not Use Magic Device as a cross-class skill to make me sub-par. You CAN have fun with a character and be a little be behind on the power curve.

Vortling
2008-05-06, 08:20 AM
Question for you Frosty. Have you asked the monk player what they envision their character doing in combat? Why don't you sit them down and find out what they want their character to do in combat and then build a fix around that? Try to get them to be as specific as possible.

Inyssius Tor
2008-05-06, 08:22 AM
Wow. Just wow.

Do you not know that fire resistance is the most common energy resistance?

I mean seriously, have you cracked open a Monster Manual lately and done some research to back up your opinion, or are you just spewing?

I went to the SRD and googled Fire Resistance on it. Want to know what I came up with?

Abomination (subtype)
Dromite
Formian
Arrowhawk
Thorciasid
Genie
Monstrous Centipede
Angel
Sirrush
Tojanida
Frost Giant Jarl (ring)
Lavawight
Planetouched (Aasimar and Tieflings)
Ghaele
Fiendish Animals
Cerebrilith
Bralani
Half-Fiend
Astral Construct
Udoroot
Bodak
Umbral Blot (Blackball)
Basilisk
Shambling Mound
Lillend
Assassin Vine


Fire Immune:
Xorn
Azer
Devils
Intellect Devourer
Crysmal
Tarrasque
Shape Of Fire
Genie
Astral Construct
Ravid
Rast
Fire Elemental, Primal
Salamander
Hellhound
Half Dragon
Dragon, True
Hydra
Fire Giant
Dragon Turtle
Night Hag
Ooze

You should try doing research sometime, lord khaine. It can be very rewarding - moreso than ignorance, infact.

Eagerly awaiting your next reply, and eager to see how you manage to extricate yourself out of this one,

-Solo

...and that's giving all twelve demons, all eleven devils, all three angels, all three (gold, brass, and red) fire-resistant dragons, all nine abominations, and both of the planetouched one entry each.

Oh, and Solo forgot to list the hellwasp swarm, which also has fire resistance.

Talya
2008-05-06, 08:38 AM
Oh right, I hadn't commented. Your OP sounds like it'll make them /close/ to their Fighter.

Yeah. That's the problem with such fixes. You've fix a bunch of things wrong with horrid class design, but then you still have the single biggest problem the monk has:

MAD.

Now, if you said your monk got to add Wisdom to hit and damage from level 1, (in addition to strength), suddenly you've got the ability to equal and slightly surpass the fighter, because all the monk needs to focus on is Constitution and Wisdom. (And of course, anything they have left to stick in strength or dexterity is a bonus.)

Edit: For the record, I love the concept of the monk. The fact that the class design is so awful makes me very sad. (And I don't mean Single Ability Dependant.) I was an Everquest addict from 1999 to 2003, and played a monk almost exclusively during that time. They were loosely patterned on the D&D monk ("Mend" ability let them heal a big chunk of their hit points every day, safe fall was a class ability, etc. There were differences, too, but the D&D influence was obvious.)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 08:40 AM
Wait, someone suggests an idea that's similar to mine?

...When does the meteor rain start?

Frosty
2008-05-06, 08:42 AM
It hurts my brain to read this thread.

That being said: Frosty, if this person enjoys playing a monk... let them play a monk. If you feel the need to "fix" the monk... then do so... but they want to play a monk..

And by play a monk, I mean... monk. Not Use Magic Device as a cross-class skill to make me sub-par. You CAN have fun with a character and be a little be behind on the power curve.

Which is why the fix I propose, with the exception of losing Slow Fall, does not in any way impact the flavor of the mechanics. It made the mechanics better, but it's still flurry of blows and it's still dimension door, etc.

Oh yeah, Quivering Palm is now once a day. If the attack used to deliver a quivering palm misses, the attempt is not used up.

Aleron
2008-05-06, 08:43 AM
It hurts my brain to read this thread.

That being said: Frosty, if this person enjoys playing a monk... let them play a monk. If you feel the need to "fix" the monk... then do so... but they want to play a monk..

And by play a monk, I mean... monk. Not Use Magic Device as a cross-class skill to make me sub-par. You CAN have fun with a character and be a little be behind on the power curve.

DING! The easiest way to make a monk a viable combatant without trying to make it the uber melee which is what most people here are trying to do is house rule it to have a full BAB and house rule in a Wis to Damage/AB. Point out that he should take Improved Natural attack to get better damage die, and maybe look up some items that would allow for some needed upgrades.

Like I said in my last post, Amulet of Natural Attacks from Savage Species costs 500GP, and lets you enchant it with any melee weapon enchant...the down side is if you have more than 1 natural attack(even though a monk has 4 limbs, it's still only 1 natural attack) each other attack adds to the cost of an enchantment. So a +1 to attack for a creature with 2 natural attacks(like claw and bite) costs the same as a +2 enchantment bonus instead of a +1.

Also, find out what he wants his guy to be flavor wise and look for a cross clas combo or PrC that fits the flavor and will help with power. Tatooed monk and Fist of the Forest both have some good abilities and allow the stacking of monk levels for thier unarmed damge and inate AC bonus.

Talya
2008-05-06, 09:17 AM
DING! The easiest way to make a monk a viable combatant without trying to make it the uber melee which is what most people here are trying to do is house rule it to have a full BAB and house rule in a Wis to Damage/AB. Point out that he should take Improved Natural attack to get better damage die, and maybe look up some items that would allow for some needed upgrades.

Yes. However...


Like I said in my last post, Amulet of Natural Attacks from Savage Species costs 500GP, and lets you enchant it with any melee weapon enchant...the down side is if you have more than 1 natural attack(even though a monk has 4 limbs, it's still only 1 natural attack) each other attack adds to the cost of an enchantment. So a +1 to attack for a creature with 2 natural attacks(like claw and bite) costs the same as a +2 enchantment bonus instead of a +1.

Problem with this, is the monk needs that amulet slot for a periapt of wisdom. Now, if you houseruled that the Amulet of Natural Attacks was also a periapt of wisdom (and cost accordingly), and could enchant it separately with weapon enchants, it might work. I just don't like the concept of a monk relying that much on items. I think you're better just ruling that the monk's own body can be enchanted. Give them an ability like OA-Samurai's Ancestral Daisho applied to their body, or kensei-like progression as a class ability instead.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-06, 09:20 AM
Well, the MiC has rules for "common" magic that can be applied to various slots... so you COULD add Wisdom +2/4/6 to that amulet for the normal cost of a Periapt of Wisdom

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 09:23 AM
Or heck, an item of Owl's insight would be more useful. Why not that?

Aleron
2008-05-06, 09:26 AM
Problem with this, is the monk needs that amulet slot for a periapt of wisdom. Now, if you houseruled that the Amulet of Natural Attacks was also a periapt of wisdom (and cost accordingly), and could enchant it separately with weapon enchants, it might work. I just don't like the concept of a monk relying that much on items. I think you're better just ruling that the monk's own body can be enchanted. Give them an ability like OA-Samurai's Ancestral Daisho applied to their body, or kensei-like progression as a class ability instead.
Or add in the house rule that you can enchant other items that make sence with enhancements. Allow Wisdom to be added to a headband, circlet or something, not just a necklace. If you check the SRD look at Body Slot Affinities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWondrousItems). So it's not necessary to make the +wis item be ONLY the listed necklace in the DMG.

I will agree that being so magic item intensive is crap, but it's not like a fighter/other melee type doesn't have some of the same drawback. They have to have a sword/lance/ect... to enchant to get the bonuses. You have a necklace instead. Not that big of a deal

Funkyodor
2008-05-06, 09:28 AM
Two Weapon Fighting & Flurry are Standard actions (Not ITWF, GTWF, & Imp. Flurry).
Monk bonus feats are selected from a pool comprised of the 6 feats presented.
A declared Quivering Palm is not used if the attack misses.
The Monks movement bonus not an Enhancement bonus.
Sai's are considered a normal sized (not light) weapon when used to disarm.
The Ki Focus weapon enhancement allows a monk to use his Unarmed Damage instead of the base weapon damage.
A Monks AC bonus changes to one every four levels. Every bonus the Monk recieves to AC is also applied as an enhancement bonus to attack/damage with unarmed attacks (maximum of WIS bonus).
The Monk's Belt does not add WIS to AC as a Monk, just what is listed in the column.

Also I intend to use rules for non-magical disease and sickness (dungeon delving dangers) so they get some value out of that immunity. I also intend Tongue of Sun and Moon to allow Handle Animal checks as a Druid/Ranger and improve Handle Animal capabilities (Ranks are equal to Monk level).

Aleron
2008-05-06, 09:28 AM
Or heck, an item of Owl's insight would be more useful. Why not that?

//playing oblivious//
How would an item of Owl's Wisdom(not insight) be more advantagious than a simple +6 Item?
//End playing oblivious//

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 09:35 AM
I stand by Insight. It's a higher level spell which adds half your CL (Up to +10) to WIS. Better than +6, fo' shoo.

Wisdom is just the crappy level 2 spell.

Talya
2008-05-06, 09:39 AM
I stand by Insight. It's a higher level spell which adds half your CL (Up to +10) to WIS. Better than +6, fo' shoo.

Wisdom is just the crappy level 2 spell.

Huh...are those RAW? (not that it matters here...)

PollyOliver
2008-05-06, 09:41 AM
For the most part I like your monk fix--the full BAB, standard action flurry, and special abilities WIS/day being the best part, I think. While being able to enchant your body like a magic item would work fine mechanically, you might consider allowing hand wraps (think ki straps from the MIC for the visual) that can be enchanted like any other weapon.

As for the 18 in all stats...I'm not sure if you're kidding or not. If you aren't, I wouldn't do it, partly because being that inherently awesome at everything, in exactly equal proportion, is just kind of...meh, and partly because that doesn't actually make the class any more viable in general, just if you have ridiculous abilities. Maybe make the monk less MAD by adding WIS to hit and damage with unarmed strike at the level when unarmed strike becomes magical (level 4, I think?) While it would be nice to have it from level 1, as someone else suggested, if it goes too low it just makes the class a little bit dip-crazy for anyone with a decent wisdom score.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 09:49 AM
Huh...are those RAW? (not that it matters here...)

I believe so. It's in the SpC, I think.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-06, 09:50 AM
Huh...are those RAW? (not that it matters here...)Spell Compendium, IIRC.

Aleron
2008-05-06, 09:53 AM
I stand by Insight. It's a higher level spell which adds half your CL (Up to +10) to WIS. Better than +6, fo' shoo.

Wisdom is just the crappy level 2 spell.
The spell is from Magic of Faerun

Ok, let's look at this. The formula for GP cost of magic items is: Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp

It's a 5th level Druid spell, and the bonus is based on the caster level, not your character level. So, for any bonus to wis worth while you looking at a +8 Wis Bonus...so a caster level 16. let's plus those numbers in shall we?

5X16X2000 = 160,000GP for the ONE ITEM!, where the +6 bonus, non-epic version costs 36,000GP. Well, I'll stick with the +6 version my self till I get rich and find a item making Druid somewhere. The Epic wisdom amulet costs 640,000GP, so at that point your getting a bargain, but for a level 10 character, that's a bit out of normal cash range:smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 09:57 AM
And that's why you get scrolls or eternal wands.

Eldariel
2008-05-06, 10:04 AM
Spell Compendium, IIRC.

Owl's Insight is also Insight-bonus, which means it stacks with Enhancement bonus, making for an easy permanent +16 to Wis.

Talic
2008-05-06, 10:09 AM
Best way, IMO, to make the Monk a melee-effective class:

Remove most of the class skills, replace a couple with others. Lower skill points to 2.

Increase BAB to full.

Change Good Will and Reflex save to poor.

Remove all class features. In their place, give the monk bonus feats, selected from the Fighter bonus feat list. The monk will get one at 1st level, and then another at every following even level. Also allow it to qualify for fighter only feats as if he were a fighter of his level.

Remove exotic weapon proficiencies, add in all martial weapon proficiencies, all simple weapon proficiencies, light, medium, and heavy armor proficiencies, and proficiency with all shield types except tower.

NOTE: This still won't make the monk better. But it will make it close.

NOTE2: Just to make things simple, I'm adding this here:

Monk UMD bonuses by level, assuming CHA 18 and Skill focus in UMD. Also assume that every attribute boost goes in another stat. Also assume every level gives a skill point to UMD, and level 1 gives 4.

{table=header]Level | UMD Bonus | 50% success DC | 75% success DC | 100% success DC
1 | +9 | 20 | 15 | 10
2 | +9 | 20 | 15 | 10
3 | +10 | 21 | 16 | 11
4 | +10 | 21 | 16 | 11
5 | +11 | 22 | 17 | 12
6 | +11 | 22 | 17 | 12
7 | +12 | 23 | 18 | 13
8 | +12 | 23 | 18 | 13
9 | +13 | 24 | 19 | 14
10 | +13 | 24 | 19 | 14
11 | +14 | 25 | 20 | 15
12 | +14 | 25 | 20 | 15
13 | +15 | 26 | 21 | 16
14 | +15 | 26 | 21 | 16
15 | +16 | 27 | 22 | 17
16 | +16 | 27 | 22 | 17
17 | +17 | 28 | 23 | 18
18 | +17 | 28 | 23 | 18
19 | +18 | 29 | 24 | 19
20 | +18 | 29 | 24 | 19
[/table]

For Comparison, a monk fairly optimized in core for UMD will have the following abilities, with respect to UMD:

Activate Blindly (DC25): Possible at level 1. 50% chance at level 11. 75% chance - Epic levels.

Decipher a Written Scroll: (% not listed, as retries are allowed, and this is primarily an Out of Combat Function)
Level 0 Spell (DC 25): Possible at level 1.
Level 1 Spell (DC 26): Possible at level 1.
Level 2 Spell (DC 27): Possible at level 1.
Level 3 Spell (DC 28): Possible at level 1.
Level 4 Spell (DC 29): Possible at level 1.
Level 5 Spell (DC 30): Possible at level 3.
Level 6 Spell (DC 31): Possible at level 5.
Level 7 Spell (DC 32): Possible at level 7.
Level 8 Spell (DC 33): Possible at level 9.
Level 9 Spell (DC 34): Possible at level 11.

Use a scroll: (assumes from full cast class, min level required to cast)
Level 0 (DC21): Possible at level 1. 50% Chance at level 3. 75% Chance at level 13. 100% Chance at Epic levels.
Level 1 (DC21): Possible at level 1. 50% Chance at level 3. 75% Chance at level 13. 100% Chance at Epic levels.
Level 2 (DC23): Possible at level 1. 50% Chance at level 7. 75% Chance at level 17. 100% Chance at Epic levels.
Level 3 (DC25): Possible at level 1. 50% Chance at level 11. 75% Chance at Epic Levels.
Level 4 (DC27): Possible at level 1. 50% Chance at level 15. 75% Chance at Epic Levels.
Level 5 (DC29): Possible at level 1. 50% Chance at level 19. 75% Chance at Epic Levels.
Level 6 (DC31): Possible at level 5. 50% Chance - Epic Levels.
Level 7 (DC33): Possible at level 9. 50% Chance - Epic Levels.
Level 8 (DC35): Possible at level 13. 50% Chance - Epic Levels.
Level 9 (DC37): Possible at level 17. 50% Chance - Epic Levels.

Use a Wand (DC20): Possible at level 1. 50% Chance at level 1. 75% Chance at level 11. 100% Chance at Epic Levels.

Emulate a Class Feature (DC 20): Possible at level 1. 50% Chance at level 1. 75% Chance at level 11. 100% Chance at Epic Levels.

Emulate an ability Score:
{table=header]Score Needed | Min Level Possible | Level For 50% Success | Odds at level 20 to succeed
11 | 1 | 13 | 65%
12 | 1 | 15 | 60%
13 | 1 | 17 | 55%
14 | 1 | 19 | 50%
15 | 3 | -- | 45%
16 | 5 | -- | 40%
17 | 7 | -- | 35%
18 | 9 | -- | 30%
19 | 11 | -- | 25%
[/table]

Emulate a Race (DC25): Possible at level 1. 50% chance at level 11. 75% chance at Epic Levels.

Emulate an Alignment (DC30): Possible at level 3. 50% chance at Epic Levels.
I consider an ability "reliable if you can activate it successfully 100% of the time.

I consider it "combat viable" if it has a 75% chance of successful activation.

I consider it "keep it for a 'we're screwed' situation at 50% activation success.

I consider it to be an Out of Combat Ability if it's possible to use an ability with any chance of success, though in UMD, I'd likely put it at 10% success for item activation, just to make the chance of success greater than the chance of being unable to try again for 24 hours.

Thus, a monk can never reliably use wands, though wands will be combat viable for them at level 11, and usable in a "we're screwed anyway, might as well give it a shot" situation at any level.

For other applications, you are welcome to use the numbers above, with the referenced DC's (Source: SRD, UMD Skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm))

Bear in mind, the above numbers assume that you put 50% of your stats in a 32 point buy, and 50% of your feats if you're human or strongheart halfling (100% of your feats if neither).

Hope this helps with your build/guide, Giacomo.

Aleron
2008-05-06, 10:09 AM
And that's why you get scrolls or eternal wands.

YES! And now were back to teh "Look! I spend the first <insert number> round(s) buffing! Maybe by the time I'm done there will still be a mob left!" That is what you want to avoid.

That and your average 5th lvl divine scroll costs about 1150gp, and you want to keep stocked with, average 3 encounters a day, probably a few days between shop visits, so let's say 3 days minimum...that's 10350 GP every 3 days, so in a week and a half of hard adventuring, you just spent as much as a +6 stat item. Yup, seems worth it for me:smallamused:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 10:15 AM
YES! And now were back to teh "Look! I spend the first <insert number> round(s) buffing! Maybe by the time I'm done there will still be a mob left!" That is what you want to avoid.

That and your average 5th lvl divine scroll costs about 1150gp, and you want to keep stocked with, average 3 encounters a day, probably a few days between shop visits, so let's say 3 days minimum...that's 10350 GP every 3 days, so in a week and a half of hard adventuring, you just spent as much as a +6 stat item. Yup, seems worth it for me:smallamused:

I believe the spell has an hours duration. One Eternal Wand and you have enough for life, Touché. If you're paranoid get a glowstone, which restores one charge per 10 minutes.

Talya
2008-05-06, 10:21 AM
The spell is from Magic of Faerun


There's no spell called "Insight" in Magic of Faerun.
Nor is there one of that name in Spell Compendium.

Aleron
2008-05-06, 10:23 AM
I believe the spell has an hours duration. One Eternal Wand and you have enough for life, Touché. If you're paranoid get a glowstone, which restores one charge per 10 minutes.

Only one problem with the eternal wand. You can only use it 2 times a day, and it can only hold up to 3rd level spells with a maximum caster level of 6... Looks like it's back to the drawing board:smallcool:

There's no spell called "Insight" in Magic of Faerun.
Nor is there one of that name in Spell Compendium.
Plz read thread before posting. Owl's Insight as was mentioned a few posts back

Talya
2008-05-06, 10:29 AM
I will agree that being so magic item intensive is crap, but it's not like a fighter/other melee type doesn't have some of the same drawback. They have to have a sword/lance/ect... to enchant to get the bonuses. You have a necklace instead. Not that big of a deal

Yes, but much of the point of a monk is to avoid some of that equipment rat-race. Of course, they failed miserably in every respect there. Now, one advantage other melee types have is they have an extra item-slot to enchant - their weapons. Since we're attempting to enchant unarmed strikes here, we lose that extra item slot.

Hey, other question for you guys pushing the spell "Insight," wherever it is, is there an equivalent charisma spell?

Roderick_BR
2008-05-06, 10:30 AM
If it was not suggested yet, try the monk from the Ultimate Classes http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Monk it offers better balanced options, without needing to give more BAB.
I advice against all 18's too. Instead, give him some magic itens, like a headband of wisdom and magic gloves.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 10:31 AM
Then, simply a charge based item a la Belt of Battle. Then, IF you need more Glowstone. Since it restores charges, you get more uses per day.

And yeah, the spell is named Owl's Insight.

Pyroconstruct
2008-05-06, 10:32 AM
Sounds similar to what I did. I'm putting mine for reference; we playtested this and found it to be pretty well-balanced.

Monk

A monk who is not lawful loses the use of Ki strike (lawful).

The AC bonus from Wisdom that a monk receives is limited by the character’s monk level +2.

Monks do not receive Still Mind, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, or Perfect Self.

Monks receive +1 BAB per level (fighter BAB).

Monks have a d6 hit dice.

Flurry of Blows may be used on an Attack action as well as a Full Attack action.

A monk’s unarmed blows are considered magical. A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a magical weapon with a total modifer equal to half their class level, rounded down. A monk is always considered to be “wielding” their unarmed strike (and thus should not have, for example, anarchic unarmed strike if lawful). A monk’s unarmed must increase directly – a monk can only add enhancement bonus and abilities to it, not trade them out. For example, a monk cannot go from having a +5 unarmed strike to a +4 holy unarmed strike when they reach 12th level. A monk may “turn off” their unarmed strike at any time (for example, if they have brilliant energy unarmed strike, and need to fight a construct). A monk’s magical unarmed strike is considered a supernatural ability. Ki strike overlaps with this ability (for example, a monk with Ki strike (adamantium, lawful) and +5 holy flaming shocking frost unarmed strike is considered to be using a magical adamantium holy lawful weapon.

Monks fighting with melee weapons have two choices: they may fight normally (they are treated the same as any other character, but cannot use monk special abilities such as Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, etc through their weapon), or they may use the monk special combat style. If they fight with the monk combat style, they are treated exactly as if they are unarmed (including factors such as reach, damage, critical range, etc) except that they use the weapon’s magical properties, not those of their unarmed strike, and they check feats such as Weapon Focus for their weapon. Likewise, if they aren’t proficient with the weapon they take a nonproficiency penalty.

3rd: +3 Armor Bonus to AC.

4th: +1 Enhancement bonus to the 3rd-level Armor bonus to AC. This increased at every 4th level by 1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

15th: Pounce special attack.

19th: Defensive Roll special ability (see Rogue).

Frosty
2008-05-06, 10:35 AM
d6? Eww

And yeah, Eternal wands only work for 3rd level or lower spells. You can get a cutom item of Owl's Insight 3 times/day or something, but that's also expensive.

Talya
2008-05-06, 10:36 AM
Plz read thread before posting. Owl's Insight as was mentioned a few posts back

/me rolls eyes.

Yeah, right. With most people in the thread calling it "insight," and you appearing to correct someone who called it Owl's Insight...



How would an item of Owl's Wisdom(not insight) be more advantagious than a simple +6 Item?


...you can see why I thought the spell was just called Insight.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 10:40 AM
Frosty: I believe charge based use causes a price reduction.

Talic
2008-05-06, 10:41 AM
Eternal Wands cannot be created at higher caster levels, by the entry in MiC. Thus, an Eternal Wand with a level 2 spell is caster level 3. That same wand functions 2 times per day. If the spell contained has a duration of 1 hour/level, then 1 wand will supply 6 hours of buff, for 4,420 gp.

In addition, the same wand will require, for a monk, a DC 20 UMD check (to emulate a class feature: Ability to cast spells), making the ability non-viable for combat. This is in addition to the Spellcraft check required to use the wand.

Thus, to provide 24 hours of buff, for this caster level 3 item, you'd need 4 wands. Total price: 17,680 gp. For 24 hours of protection at caster level 3.

Note, that this cannot apply to Owl's Insight, which is a level 5 spell, but is able to apply to Owl's Wisdom, for a... wait. MORE expensive way to get a +4 to wisdom? (periapt of wisdom +4, 16,000 gp). Well, in fairness, it's all unslotted, so would be equivalent to a 32,000 gp. Still, hardly game breaking, and it means you'll need to wake up 3 hours into your nap to activate it... and then again.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-06, 10:46 AM
I have someone who insists on playing the MONK class (and nothing else but the Monk class because he likes the flavor and all the "cool abilities!!" he saw). I have tried to dissuade him to no avail, and now I gotta figure out a way for him tobe able to contribute meaningfully. Now, keep in mind that this guy doesn't know squat about optimizing, so if some of the fixes seem "over the top if combined with other things" well...he won't be combining it other things. Tell me what you think about a quick-fix:

Full BAB
Body is enchanteable like a normal weapon (Flaming fist!!!)
Unarmed strikes and such will eventually be able to overcome all DR.
Flurry of blows can also be used to deliver two attacks as a standard action or at the end of a charge.
Dimension Door becomes Wisdom times/day.
Gains Airwalk Wisdom times/day (Caster level = Druid of the same level) starting at level 10
Lose Slow Fall.
6 skill points per level.

Would this be good enough to let the Monk keep up? I also also give him 18 in all stats.

I like the Full BAB, enchantable body, flurry changes (basically like getting the Snap Kick Feat for free at level one, right?), and 6 skill points.

The dimension door, airwalk, and slow fall changes seen sort of arbitary, however. Those can be handled better with magic items, spells, feat selection, and multiclassing.

I'm more in favor of just replacing monk class features with an open system like ToB's manuevers, where a monk can select from different powers (including the core monk ones.) Then you can have Monks who manipulate shadows, Monks who fly through the air and fall from any height, Monks who spontaneously teleport, and others. I'd also like to see Monks able to select a weapon other than unarmed strike and specialize in it to the same effect.

It doesn't seem like your fix addresses how MAD monks are, but you kinda jury-rig this particular character by giving the him solid 18's so I don't think MAD will be a problem in this instance. If you intend to use this fix for someone without all 18's, you should look at getting Monk MAD fixed somehow.

I am worried you felt it necessary to grant someone perfect abilities to make his character work. While low abilities are rarely fun, a character without flaws of any kind can be very bland and difficult to play as well. How is the newbie supposed to get a grasp of what having an 18 means if there's nothing else to compare that to? We've all seen the Strong but dumb ogre, and the smart and nimble but not-so-tough elf, but this guy is going to be the smart, tough, strong, wise, charismatic, and dexterous guy in the party. Seems a little difficult to relate to, IMO.

Talic
2008-05-06, 10:56 AM
Hey, other question for you guys pushing the spell "Insight," wherever it is, is there an equivalent charisma spell?

As has been pointed out, Owl's Insight is a Druid 5. There is no equivalent for other classes, I believe. It's really quite good for druids.



Also, Azerian, if you went by the custom item guidelines (note: not rules, so this is not RAW), an item of owl's insight at Caster Level 12, with 2 charges per day, would cost 43,200 gp (command word activation), and would provide a +6 insight bonus to wisdom.

Now, compare to a similar item. Periapt of Wisdom. 36,000 for a +6 enhancement bonus to wisdom, and slotted.

Custom guide doesn't provide for bonuses to a stat other than enhancement, so it gets a bit rough, but just unslotting a periapt puts it at 72,000 gp. I'd say such an item would be valued roughly at 36,000 if it provided a constant bonus, and was slotted into a wisdom affinity slot, and 72,000 if it was unslotted or could be used without a "must be worn for 24 hours before functioning". Perhaps add 10-20% for unslotted items.

Source:
Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

The cost of 43,000 seems pretty close, if the item were slotted, and required 24 hours of continuous wearing before it functioned.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 11:03 AM
Excellent, then. You use the belt and then abuse the extra spell for one Owl's Wisdom or two, possibly extended, so it works out just fine.

Aleron
2008-05-06, 11:05 AM
Talya, my bad. I went back and re-read some of this and you're right, it could be a bit confusing to follow on that point.

/apoligise

Frosty
2008-05-06, 11:17 AM
I'm more in favor of just replacing monk class features with an open system like ToB's manuevers, where a monk can select from different powers (including the core monk ones.) Then you can have Monks who manipulate shadows, Monks who fly through the air and fall from any height, Monks who spontaneously teleport, and others. I'd also like to see Monks able to select a weapon other than unarmed strike and specialize in it to the same effect.
So...basically Swordsage?



It doesn't seem like your fix addresses how MAD monks are, but you kinda jury-rig this particular character by giving the him solid 18's so I don't think MAD will be a problem in this instance. If you intend to use this fix for someone without all 18's, you should look at getting Monk MAD fixed somehow.
I agree. I would have a more comprehensive fix if I were to let some other player build a 32 pt-buy Monk. Maybe I'll go just go ahead and address MAD with another fix and give the newbie a 40 pt-buy instead of 32.



I am worried you felt it necessary to grant someone perfect abilities to make his character work. While low abilities are rarely fun, a character without flaws of any kind can be very bland and difficult to play as well. How is the newbie supposed to get a grasp of what having an 18 means if there's nothing else to compare that to? We've all seen the Strong but dumb ogre, and the smart and nimble but not-so-tough elf, but this guy is going to be the smart, tough, strong, wise, charismatic, and dexterous guy in the party. Seems a little difficult to relate to, IMO.

Agreed.

Talya
2008-05-06, 12:11 PM
Hey, Frosty...here's my monk with maneuvers fix from a while back. You have to sort through and ignore all the posts from people in denial who think monks as-is have more value than adding a pet rock to your party.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68791

Frosty
2008-05-06, 12:30 PM
Whoa. Warblade maneuver progression with Swordsage stance progression and dual-stance at level 12? Holy moly.

Talya
2008-05-06, 01:04 PM
Whoa. Warblade maneuver progression with Swordsage stance progression and dual-stance at level 12? Holy moly.

Yeah, later in the thread i changed the dual stance to 20, I just hate capstones at 20. Nobody ever hits 20 in one class.

Anyway, warblades have the weakest maneuver progression, I figured that was appropriate. I wanted them to have good stance progression, though.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 01:07 PM
Nobody hits 20 in a class

Factotum. THAT'S how you get people to stick, anything else is progressively weaker.

Rutee
2008-05-06, 01:09 PM
If you're going to use ToB, just use the Unarmed Swordsage variant and be done with it.

Talya
2008-05-06, 01:20 PM
If you're going to use ToB, just use the Unarmed Swordsage variant and be done with it.

Well, that other thread was specifically titled "Fixing the monk (without swordsage.)" Because I don't think the unarmed swordsage variant really feels monk-ish enough for me.

Frosty
2008-05-06, 01:21 PM
You know, I still find it amusing that Monks aren't proficient with Unarmed Strike and Gauntlets.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 01:21 PM
What about giving it less maneuvers and stances but adding a progressively better Raging Mongoose-esque ability?

Or Flurry of Blows, in other words.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-06, 01:32 PM
Ok, if you've got to use the Half Minotaur as an argument, you've lost already. nobody in their right minds allows the use of Half Minotaur. That's like saying a Feral, Lolth-touched Mineral Warrior Goliath can do good unarmed damage.

Note: I am not trying to make an argument, just a suggestion that might be suitable to a new player. I find that half minotaur is not nearly as bad as giving all 18s on stats, or having the dm work hard to 'fix' the monk.

I tend to take the side of solo when it comes to new players. If they think they will be badass being a monk, you should let them read the abilities and offer up suggestions on how to build a reasonable monk rather than home brew a better class. If they still want to be a straight monk you should let them. We all crawled before we learned how to walk... lets not give the baby a rocket pack to help them out.

I hardly find half minotaur to be unreasonable in this circumstance. Especially since a monks place is tactics not damage (notice the hoops jumped through just to bring it up to where it is) and the large size (and huge via permanent enlarge person) benefits the monk on nearly all fronts (trip/reach/grapple/str) much more than trying to increase damage. My suggestion is that the player try and use karmic strike/spring attack(and eventually there superiors)/and improved trip.... maybe grapple (but bab is weak) + choke hold. Basically just trip or stun everyone they can, especially casters (not saying a monk can handle a caster). The monk should have the mobility to put the caster/archers in melee and hopefully ready an attack action or AoO to stun the caster when casting. Mage slayer is also an ok option.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-06, 01:38 PM
No, actually they don't. The idea is to win by unarmed prowess and martial skill, not because of your 1337 buffs which put you on the Giacomo "I win because my caster buddy took pity on me" level. My very simple chameleon build does that, yours doesn't. And it's STILL weaker than what I could do with a singleclassed factotum.

No, the idea is to make a Chameleon who is better at unarmed combat. Not a Factotum. The fact that your "Chameleon" build doesn't actually use anything but the floating feat (and could have just taken a one level Fighter dip instead to get that feat) proves my point. You built a Factotum that happens to have Chameleon levels by accident.

Buffing up with spells that last hours is not entering into "I win because my caster buddy takes pity on me." territory. Because I am my caster buddy. Is it pathetic when Wizards cast spells? Because after all that's them relying on their caster buddy, aka my class features, the ones you ignored because you were too busy being a Factotum and not a Chameleon.

When you show that your Factotum build would be better if you didn't waste two levels on a class you aren't using, you just prove my point for me, you aren't building a Chameleon, you are building a Factotum. We know Factotums are awesome, the question was whether a Chameleon could fight unarmed better then a Monk, not if a Factotum could.


Next time, TRY to make a good martial character, not a buffzilla. My chameleon is better than the other guys presented here when compared without half-a-dozen buffs and magic items up, and will still be able to do more things than most of the other one trick ponies.

Next time try to make a Chameleon. Yes the best melee combat build in the game is a:
Factotum 8/Chameleon 2/Human Paragon 3/Chameleon or Factotum or anything

who uses both bonus feats for Font of Inspiration and takes the martial focus.

Yes Font of Inspiration 9 times at level 13 is awesome. That has nothing to do with a Chameleon and everything to do with a Factotum.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 01:40 PM
Please. So much does what I said bother you that you bring it a few pages later? That thing is OVER. Get over it, 'cause sure as hell I don't even care about that.

Frosty
2008-05-06, 01:43 PM
As much as I dislike having to rely on a ton of buffs, technically CoV is correct. Sir Giacomo wanted a CHAMELEON build that does unarmed combat better.

That said, I enjoyed seeing the Factotum discussions as well.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 01:49 PM
Easy then. I just get a scroll of greater invisibility, use the martial focus, and keep attacking until the monk drops.

Really, who thought a chameleon makes a good fighter? The chameleon's job is to be a variant MT. Full stop. It's factotum that's going to make the martial part work, because factotum is far better prepared to do the melee buffless. If you NEED so many buffs to make it work, you're just demonstrating once again that a wizard is doing the job, not you, the meleer.

Meanwhile, the other side of the class combo is doing all the job, no buffs needed. Factotum is it's own buff.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 02:01 PM
Frosty-
Instead of giving all 18s in the monk's stats, have you thought about just giving him a free +4 LA template, like half-celestial? The other fixes look fine.

Maybe use the rules on wizards for making a custom celestial, based on an actual celestial. That way he could have +2 str +4 dex +4 con +2 int +8 wisdom +2 cha (or break those +20 abilities up any other way). He'd also have a good fly speed (handy!), and a few SLAs that are as good as the party's cleric, since he won't be 4 HD behind.

Frosty
2008-05-06, 02:03 PM
Cuddly, that sounds like a fantastic idea.

Talya
2008-05-06, 02:09 PM
Those half-celestial abilities are powerful.

My sorceress has a Half-celestial, 9th level Ruby Rose Knight Paladin as her cohort. The Level adjustment makes her far less powerful in melee than an ECL13 cohort should be, but the HC-template abilities (especially the spell like abilities...and she has the "Magic in the Blood" feat as well) make up for the loss.

If you're letting the monk ignore the level adjustment for the template, they'll be very useful. Might even be marginally useful in melee combat.

Frosty
2008-05-06, 04:44 PM
Speaking of multiclassing, one of my players joked that the Monk should multiclass into Sacred Prostitute. Something abut being more useful that way.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 04:47 PM
No joke.

Really. Sacred prostitute ranks on the power level right up there with Incantatrix and Planar Shepherd. The ability to allow a spellcaster to have twice as many spells is gross. Sacred prostitutes rape games.

Frosty
2008-05-06, 04:48 PM
Well at least the Monk is immune to diseases...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 04:50 PM
Yeah. Again, this is no joke: Monks make perfect prostitutes. They uphold their contracts due to lawfulness, have immunity to diseases, move faster, can fight unarmed halfway decently, and of course, there's Flurry of Blows and Tongue of the sun and moon, and let's leave that one alone.

Frosty
2008-05-06, 04:56 PM
Wow. Sir Giacomo was right after all. The Monk *does* have synergistic abilities. He said one just has to look harder for their applications. I guess this count.

But then, wouldn't Paladins also make good sacred prostitutes? They themselves are immune. Can Detect troublemakers, and can even cure their partners of diesease! And at high levels, they've got spells that render them immune to fatigue (and daze, stun, etc)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 05:17 PM
I'm gonna quote you here:


But paladin's have all that "Stick in the ass" aura around them, and not everyone is into anal.


Direct quote.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-06, 05:47 PM
Please. So much does what I said bother you that you bring it a few pages later? That thing is OVER. Get over it, 'cause sure as hell I don't even care about that.

I replied to your post 7 hours after you made it. That post I replied to came 9 hours after the one it was replying to. Don't attempt to dismiss my statements because I went to sleep.


If you NEED so many buffs to make it work, you're just demonstrating once again that a wizard is doing the job, not you, the meleer.

Seriously, what kind of crack are you smoking? When you cast spells yourself (including both Divine and Arcane ones, so the Wizard couldn't do it himself) it's not showing a weakness on your part to use those spells. Are gishes pathetic wimps? I remember you talking about how they were up there with Planar Shepards in power, but apparently when they buff themselves they are losers?

It's not weird or crazy to cast spells when you are presenting a build for a spellcasting class.

Also the point was to be a better unarmed fighter, not to beat the Monk in a duel. So when you face that Fire Gaint, you still lose with your Greater Invisibility (and your Factotum too, unless you get a Crystal or use a class feature mimic that you probably don't have).

Seriously, you go out of your way to decry my Chameleon build for using spellcasting, at the same time you claim that a Chameleons sole purpose is to be a spellcaster?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 05:54 PM
Yes.

And when I mentioned power rankings, I was talking about the sacred prostitute.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-06, 06:22 PM
Yes.

And when I mentioned power rankings, I was talking about the sacred prostitute.

I was talking about in a previous thread, where you talked about gishes being at the same power level as Planar Shepards, at which point everyone laughed at you.

Yes what?

Frosty
2008-05-06, 06:24 PM
I think I rememebr that thread. It was a while back.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 06:26 PM
Yes to your ending question.

And yes, indeed, I stand by that position. It takes significant and unnecessary tweaking, but it can be done. The same way you can make a monster meaner than the mortiverse.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-06, 06:27 PM
I think I rememebr that thread. It was a while back.

I know, I'm just saying that it makes no sense to claim that Gishes (Those guys that buff up to do damage) are Planar Shepard level awesome, but that anyone who buffs up to do damage is pathetic.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-06, 06:29 PM
Yes to your ending question.

And yes, indeed, I stand by that position. It takes significant and unnecessary tweaking, but it can be done. The same way you can make a monster meaner than the mortiverse.

So your claims so far are:

1) Chameleons are better unarmed fighters then Monks.
2) Chameleons are primarily spellcasters.
3) A Chameleon that casts spells is pathetic.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-06, 06:32 PM
A monk that has to use Cross-Class ranks in UMD and Charisma (a dump stat for a monk) to be effective isn't a monk, he's a sub-par rogue without sneak attack.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 06:34 PM
Nope, the claims go like this:

1) Chameleons can be better unarmed fighters than monks, with some preparation.
2) A chameleon is at it's prime when it's cheesing off the dual spellcasting ability it has, and finding things that synergize with it.
3) A chameleon that had to cast a dozen buffs to become better than a monk is pathetic. One or two buffs could be admissible (Giant size, or Girallon's blessing, maybe), but such a massive buff suite only showcases ineptitude at optimizing.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-06, 07:36 PM
3) A chameleon that had to cast a dozen buffs to become better than a monk is pathetic. One or two buffs could be admissible (Giant size, or Girallon's blessing, maybe), but such a massive buff suite only showcases ineptitude at optimizing.

So now I'm inept too. That's great. Please show me which few buffs you would be casting. By the way, repeatedly suggesting that one cast spells, one can't actually cast, is not a good method of insulting other people.

Secondly, casting multiple low level buffs with hour per level durations is significantly better then casting fewer higher level spells as long as the provide the same benefits.

Two 3rd level spells that that provide +5 to attack roles and +10 to damage for 1 hour per level is better then spending a 7th level slot on getting +6 to attacks and +8 to damage for one minute, even if you could cast it, even if it was 1 hour per level. Because you are less vulnerable to dispels, since your buffs are spread out, and it leaves you higher level slots for offensive spells and battlefield control, which they are significantly better at because of the way saving throws on spells work.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 07:40 PM
You can cast ANY arcane or divine spells. ANY. Wu jen is an arcanist, so giant size works. Same with Girallons.

And I just mentioned them. Those two suffice.

And...spreading is better? HOHOHOHO. General dispel and done.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-06, 07:46 PM
You can cast ANY arcane or divine spells. ANY. Wu jen is an arcanist, so giant size works. Same with Girallons.

And I just mentioned them. Those two suffice.

And...spreading is better? HOHOHOHO. General dispel and done.

1) Giant Size is a 7th level spell. How is your level 10 character casting it at all? How is your Chameleon that never gets access to 7th level spells ever casting it at all even at level 20?

2) Um? What? Do you know how dispel magic works at all? If you cast Giant Size and Girallon's Blessing on yourself, then they have to target you with Dispel to get both, then they make two CL checks.

If you have multiple buffs up with hour per level durations it means you can cast them all at once, using your Karma Bead, but even if you didn't they would still have to succeed on more dispel checks to deprive you of your buffs. Instead of becoming completely useless when they dispel your Giant Size, you become half as good.

Seriously you apparently have never even read the Giant Size spell description. It lasts one minute and it's a level 7 spell. You can't cast it, and even if you could you would have to do it for every fight.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 07:52 PM
"There's always a way".

There was a way to cast spells of a level higher than you could. Look it up. And personally, a that effort for a spell that singlehandedly boosts combat prowess so much is worth it. Big time.

And then, there's the bead of karma thing. TERRIBLY inefficient. Because NO, you CANNOT buy only that bead, you need to buy the whole strand, and you need to have what, thirty strands for a typical adventure. Way to go. You now have no WBL.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-06, 10:16 PM
"There's always a way".

There was a way to cast spells of a level higher than you could. Look it up. And personally, a that effort for a spell that singlehandedly boosts combat prowess so much is worth it. Big time.

Um, no there isn't. Way to fail. And you still wouldn't have it until level 15. And it improves your combat ability about as much as 1 level 6 spell and two level 4 spells at it's most effective. And it only lasts for 1 minute, unlike those spells which last for 15+hours.


And then, there's the bead of karma thing. TERRIBLY inefficient. Because NO, you CANNOT buy only that bead, you need to buy the whole strand, and you need to have what, thirty strands for a typical adventure. Way to go. You now have no WBL.

Way to prove that you don't know how Beads of Karma work either.

1) You can buy different levels of Strand, it's right there in the DMG.
2) You only need one strand ever. It's not an expendable item. You activate it once a day to cast all your hour per level buffs. It effects all of them, they all are harder to dispel (Add in a Ring of Enduring Arcana too) and then you are basically immune to dispels against any non-dedicated dispeller.

Frosty
2008-05-07, 12:24 PM
A monk that has to use Cross-Class ranks in UMD and Charisma (a dump stat for a monk) to be effective isn't a monk, he's a sub-par rogue without sneak attack.

Well, the Monk does have abilities the Rogue doesn't...

Solo
2008-05-07, 12:54 PM
Well, the Monk does have abilities the Rogue doesn't...

Like sucking.:smallwink:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-07, 12:55 PM
Like sucking.:smallwink:

And Knowledge (Religion) !!!

Frosty
2008-05-07, 12:57 PM
I'm sorry, I thought combining Sucking and Knowledge (Religion) was usually limited to priests with vows of celibacy? :smallwink: