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Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-05-06, 12:30 AM
Here's an idea that's been bumping around in my head for a while and I've finally remembered to post it here.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Nny2/Demigod.jpg
Divine Experience, though the term is not entirely accurate. What it is is the siphoning of divine power from a dying or voluntary source. Divine experience is the power which will grant divine ranks and greater power.

Killing a deity will grant you a certain amount of both regular experience points to gain levels or to use on item creation or what have you, and then the divine experience points which add to your divine power.

To attain divine rank 0, you must either be granted it by an existing deity or absorb it through the body of a dying god, either by delivering the killing blow or if it was of sufficient power, be a part of the group that destroyed the god. Some divine entities cannot grant any kind of divine rank whatsoever, such as a squirrel that happens to have divine rank 5 or another DR 0 entity. Firstly, the god granting the divine rank must have at least as many class levels+HD as the creature(s) attaining it, and they must have a divine rank of at least one quarter of the granted being's HD.

Once this creature has his new demi-godhood(which may be where a new teir of the current campaign or the beginning of a whole new campaign), he has a total divine experience pool of 0. The demi-god must now go forth into the world and accomplish great deeds, defeat foes against their own causes. Divine experience works similarly to normal experience. For the amount of divine XP granted, treat the opponent's divine rank as their equivalent CR minus 1. So if a group of divine rank 8 characters comes across a divine rank 10 enemy, they will receive 1,050 DXP, and will be that much closer to attaining a new divine rank.

Alternately, a god may grant divine XP to a group of gods or demi-gods as a reward for accomplishing great deeds they have asked for or deem worthy of reward. A god can only grant as much divine DXP per task equal to their divine rank*500, and in doing so takes a ritual that requires 24 hours of ritual on the character's and deity's part.

A third, optional rule could be DXP granted by those who worship the deity. The god gains a number of DXP equal to the number of worshipers the god has. If the worshipers have a class level of 8-14, they instead gain 3 DXP, if they have 15-20 HD, they gain 5 and HD any higher grants the god 10 DXP. These points are received immediately when the worshiper becomes devoted to you, and are conversely taken away if they lose faith in you. Gaining enough will of course send you into a higher divine rank, but you may also potentially lose enough DXP to lose divine ranks if your following diminishes enough.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention: This system is sort of designed with my setting in mind, and anyone who knows that bit about it knows there are plenty of gods. DvR 0 or 1 creatures are like the commoners of The City of the Gods. And not only that, they're all over the nature part(Eden), so you can just walk into a dungeon(if you're high enough level) and come across a level 21 DvR Cleric or what have you just screwing around and potentially looking for a fight, just for kicks.

Edit: I've made a few notes on how I think divine ranks should be handled. This is of course just for Deities as PC's.


Levels
Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well. These additional character levels beyond an effective character level of 20th follow the rules for epic levels.

I don't think the outsider HD are at all necesarry. The way I see gods are usually just their normal class levels and racial HD.

Character levels above 20th confer some, but not all, of the benefits of normal levels. Deities gain all the class features for all their levels. The deity also gains the normal Hit Die for that class, plus additional skill points as if the deity had a level in that class normally. The deity gains an ability bonus every four levels, and a feat every three levels.
Sounds good, just as normal.


Beyond character level 20th, deities’ attack and saving throw bonuses increase at new rates. Deities gain a +1 epic attack bonus at 21st level and every other level thereafter. No deity can have more than four attacks derived strictly from its base attack bonus. Deities also gain a +1 bonus on saving throws at 22nd level and every other level thereafter.
Sounds okay to me, afterall, they are gods.


Hit Points
Deities receive maximum hit points for each Hit Die.
Makes sense.


Speed
Deities can move much more quickly than mortals. A deity’s base land speed depends on its form (biped or quadruped) and its size, as shown on the following table. Some deities are exceptions, with speeds faster or slower than the norm.

Deity Speed
{table="head"]Size|Biped1|Quadruped2
Fine|20 ft.|60 ft.
Diminutive|30 ft.|70 ft.
Tiny|40 ft.|80 ft.
Small|50 ft.|90 ft.
Medium|60 ft.|100 ft.
Large|80 ft.|120 ft.
Huge|100 ft.|140 ft.
Gargantuan|120 ft.|160 ft.
Colossal|140 ft.|180 ft.
[/table]

1. Or any form with two or fewer legs.
2. Or any form with three or more legs.

Note: Use the Biped column for burrow and swim speeds for all deities regardless of form. Use half the value in the Biped column for climb speeds for all deities. Use twice the value in the Quadruped column for fly speeds for all deities capable of flying.
I would limit the speed for their divine rank. I would say demi-gods just move at 10 ft. more than normal, and all the way up to lesser deity it's +20 ft. Beyond that make it like the chart above.


Armor Class
A field of divine energy encompasses a deity’s body, granting it a divine Armor Class bonus equal to its divine rank. This bonus stacks with all other Armor Class bonuses and is effective against touch attacks and incorporeal touch attacks.

Most deities (all those with 20 outsider Hit Dice) have a natural armor bonus of their divine rank +13. All deities also have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Charisma bonus (if any).

Deities who aren’t outsiders have their normal natural armor bonus + their divine rank.

Many deities have other Armor Class bonuses as noted in their individual descriptions.
I would reserve the Cha bonus to AC for deities of DvR 1 or more, and have it limited by their divine rank until DvR 6. This might not be too powerful for high enough level gods.


Attacks
A deity’s Hit Dice and type and character level determine its base attack bonus. In addition to the figures for weapon attacks, this section of the statistics block also includes melee touch attack and ranged touch attack bonuses, to be used when the deity casts a spell or uses a spell-like ability that requires a touch attack to affect its target. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all attack rolls. Deities of rank 1 or higher do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.
I see no problem.


Bypassing Damage Reduction
As outsiders with alignment subtypes, the natural attacks of deities, as well as any weapons they wield, are considered aligned the same as the deity for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.
Again, no problem in my eyes.


Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.
Nonononono. This particular ability should be reserved for gods of incredible power, like DvR 21 or higher, with a possible class level/HD restriction, like, not being able to unless you have 80 or 90 HD or class levels.


Saving Throws
A deity’s outsider Hit Dice and character level determine its base saving throw bonuses. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all saving throws. Deities of rank 1 or higher do not automatically fail on a natural saving throw roll of 1.
As mentioned earlier, the Outsider HD thing should be discounted unless you actually have them. The rest seems fine.


Checks
A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all skill checks, ability checks, caster level checks, and turning checks. Lesser deities (rank 6-10) may take 10 on any check, provided they need to make a check at all. Intermediate and greater deities (rank 11-20) always get a result of 20 on any check, provided they need to make a check at all.
I don't think this will do. I agree with the divine bonus, but I believe the 'take 10 on anything' portions should be reserved for greater deities and take 20 for Rank 21+ gods.


Deities and Synergy Bonuses
For every 20 extra ranks a deity has in a skill, the deity’s synergy bonus from the skill (if any) increases by +2.
I can dig it.


Immunities
Deities have the following immunities. Individual deities may have more immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank.

Transmutation
A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself.

Seems suitable.

[quote]Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage
A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.
I wouldn't say this is unnecessary, with high enough level you can avoid these entirely if you do it right. And they already get their divine rank as a bonus to saves against this stuff.


Mind-Affecting Effects
A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Works for me, since higher ranking deities can still effect them.


Energy Immunity
Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities.

Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.
I disagree with the first paragraph, but agree with the second. That said, there ought to be some deific poisons and diseases only deliverable by higher ranking deities.

Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking.
I disagree with the first paragraph, but agree with the second. That said, there ought to be some deific poisons and diseases only deliverable by higher ranking deities. I also agree with the third paragraph.


Damage Reduction
A deity has damage reduction as shown on the table.

If the deity also has damage reduction from another source this damage reduction does not stack with the damage reduction granted by divine ranks. Instead, the deity gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation. Whenever a deity has a second kind of damage reduction that might apply to an attack, that damage reduction is listed in parentheses after the damage reduction entry in the deity’s statistics block.

DeityDamage Reduction
{table="head"]Divine Rank|Damage Reduction
Quasi-deity (0)|10/epic
Demigod (1-5)|15/epic
Lesser deity (11-15)|20/epic
Intermediate deity (11-15)|25/epic
Greater deity (16-20)|30/epic
[/table]
I would push that up at least one space, perhaps just take the table and lower it by 10 or 5, but whatever it may be, I wouldn't give the DR to DvR 0 characters.


Resistances
All deities have at least the following resistances. Individual deities may have additional resistances.

Energy Resistance
A deity has fire resistance of 5 + its divine rank.
No.


Spell Resistance
A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.
I would make it more along the lines of 10+DvR+HD.


Salient Divine Abilities
Every deity of rank 1 or higher has at least one additional power, called a salient divine ability, per divine rank (see Salient Divine Abilities).
I'll have to go over these a little more later on. Some may be overly powerful, but I havn't read them in long enough to remember.


Domain Powers
A deity of rank 1 or higher can use any domain power it can grant a number of times per day equal to its divine rank (if the power normally can be used more often than that, the deity gets the greater number of uses). If a domain power is based on a cleric’s level (or one-half a cleric’s level), a deity with no cleric levels has an effective cleric level equal to the deity’s divine rank (or one-half the deity’s divine rank) for this purpose.
I would say it should be their effective cleric level as equal to their HD, max 30th.


Spell-Like Abilities
A deity can use any domain spell it can grant as a spell-like ability at will. The deity’s effective caster level for such abilities is 10 + the deity’s divine rank. The saving throw DC for such abilities is 10 + the spell level + the deity’s Charisma bonus (if any) + the deity’s divine rank.
I'd limit this to any deity but DvR 0 ones. Otherwise, seems okay.


Immortality
All deities (even those of rank 0) are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a deity to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat. Deities of rank 1 or higher are not subject to death from massive damage.
I can dig.


Senses
Deities of rank 1 or higher have incredibly sensitive perception. Such a deity’s senses (including darkvision and low-light vision, if the deity has them) extend out to a radius of one mile per divine rank. Perception is limited to the senses a deity possesses. A deity cannot see through solid objects without using its remote sensing ability or some sort of x-ray vision power.

Remote Sensing
{table="head"]Divine Rank|Remote Locations
1-5|2
6-10|5
11-1510
16-20|20
[/table]
Seems alright, I can't really think of anything wrong with it.


Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.
No real problems I can see here.


Block Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can block the sensing ability of other deities of its rank or lower. This power extends for a radius of one mile per rank of the deity, or within the same distance around a temple or other locale sacred to the deity, or the same distance around a portfolio-related event. The deity can block two remote locations at once, plus the area within one mile of itself. The blockage lasts 1 hour per divine rank.
I see no problem. Balance of power.


Portfolio
Every deity of rank 1 or higher has at least limited knowledge and control over some aspect of mortal existence. A deity’s connection to its portfolio gives it a number of powers.

Portfolio Sense
Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.
I can dig.


Automatic Actions
When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than the number on the table below. The number of free actions a deity can perform each round is also determined by the deity’s divine rank.

Automatic Actions
{table="head"]Divine Rank|Maximum DC for Automatic Action|Free Actions per Round
1-5|15|2
6-10|20|5
11-15|25|10
16-20|30|20
[/table]
I'd limit it to 1 swift action per round involving their portfolios. Maybe more for DvR 21+ or even greater deities.


Create Magic Items
A deity of rank 1 or higher can create magic items related to its portfolio without any requisite item creation feat, provided that the deity possesses all other prerequisites for the item. The maximum item value a deity can create is a function of its divine rank (see table). The item’s cost and creation time remain unchanged, but the deity is free to undertake any activity when not laboring on the item.

If a deity has the item creation feat pertaining to the item it wishes to create, the cost (in gold and XP) and creation times are halved.

Create Magic Items
{table="head"]Divine Rank|Maximum Market Price
1-5|4,500 gp
6-10|30,000 gp
11-15|200,000 gp (any nonartifact)
16-20|No maximum (including artifact)
[/table]
Hmm. This one doesn't seem too bad, a handy tool on the go.


Divine Aura
The mere presence of a deity of rank 1 or higher can deeply affect mortals and beings of lower divine rank. All divine aura effects are mind-affecting, extraordinary abilities. Mortals and other deities of lower rank can resist the aura’s effects with successful Will saves; the DC is 10 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier. Deities are immune to the auras of deities of equal or lower rank. Any being who makes a successful saving throw against a deity’s aura power becomes immune to that deity’s aura power for one day. Divine aura is an emanation that extends around the deity in a radius whose size is a function of divine rank. The deity chooses the size of the radius and can change it as a free action. If the deity chooses a radius of 0 feet, its aura power effectively becomes non-functional. When two or more deities’ auras cover the same area, only the aura that belongs to the deity with the highest rank functions. If divine ranks are equal, the auras coexist.

The deity can make its own worshipers, beings of its alignment, or both types of individuals immune to the effect as a free action. The immunity lasts one day or until the deity dismisses it. Once affected by an aura power, creatures remain affected as long as they remain within the aura’s radius. The deity can choose from the following effects each round as a free action.

Daze
Affected beings just stare at the deity in fascination. They can defend themselves normally but can take no actions.

Fright
Affected beings become shaken and suffer a -2 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks. The merest glance or gesture from the deity makes them frightened, and they flee as quickly as they can, although they can choose the path of their flight.

Resolve
The deity’s allies receive a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and checks, while the deity’s foes receive a -4 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks.

Divine Aura
{table="head"]Divine Rank|Divine Aura Size
1-5|10 ft./rank
6-10|100 ft./rank
11-15|100 ft./rank
16-20|1 mile/rank
[/table]
Seems reasonable and rather deific to me. And it makes it so puny mortals aren't really a threat to a god, and make the gods themselves your challenges.


Grant Spells
A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. Most deities can grant spells from the cleric spell list, the ranger spell list, and from three or more domains. Deities with levels in the druid class can grant spells from the druid spell list, and deities with paladin levels can grant spells from the paladin spell list. A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended.
I think they should only give them to people of the appropriate class, with a potential limit of granting non-spell casters or spell casters spells beyond their limit a number of spells equal to their divine rank. Maneuvers granted to crusaders should work the same way as this, since they are things of divine influence.


Spontaneous Casting
A deity of rank 1 or higher who has levels in a divine spellcasting class can spontaneously cast any spell it can grant.
Seems somewhat powerful in comparison to other gods. I would say they could do it a number of times per day equal to their divine rank+3.


Communication
A deity of rank 1 or higher can understand, speak, and read any language, including nonverbal languages. The deity can speak directly to any beings within one mile of itself per divine rank.
Sounds alright.


Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.
I see no problem.


Godly Realm
Each deity of rank 1 or higher has a location that serves as a workplace, personal residence, audience chamber, and sometimes as a retreat or fortress. A deity is at its most powerful within its godly realm. A deity has at least modest control over the environment within its realm, controlling the temperature and minor elements of the environment. The radius of this control is a function of the deity’s rank and whether the realm is located on an Outer Plane or some other plane (including the Material Plane).

Godly Realm
{table="head"] |Radius of Control
Divine Rank|Outer Plane|Material Plane
1-5|100 ft./rank|100 ft./rank
6-10|1 mile|100 ft./rank
11-15|10 miles|100 ft./rank
16-20|100 miles|100 ft./rank
[/table]
Seems okay.


Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF), and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit. Sounds can be no louder than one hundred humans could make, but not intelligible speech or harmful sound. The deity’s ability to create scents is similar. Deities of rank 6 or higher can create the sounds of intelligible speech. A demigod or lesser deity can erect buildings and alter the landscape, but must do so through its own labor, through magic, or through its divine powers. A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible. A deity of rank 11 or higher can also apply the enhanced magic or impeded magic trait to up to four groups of spells (schools, domains, or spells with the same descriptor). The enhanced magic trait enables a metamagic feat to be applied to a group of spells without requiring higher-level spell slots. Many deities apply the enhanced magic trait to their domain spells, making them maximized (as the Maximize Spell feat) within the boundaries of their realm. The impeded magic trait doesn’t affect the deity’s spells and spell-like abilities.

In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane. These buildings and alterations are manifestations of the deity’s control over the realm.

A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:

* Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.
* Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.
* Change or apply a time trait within the realm.
* Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions.

Once a deity sets the conditions in its realm, they are permanent, though the deity can change them. As a standard action, the deity can specify a new environmental condition. The change gradually takes effect over the next 10 minutes. Changing astral links, planar traits, or terrain requires more effort, and the deity must labor for a year and a day to change them. During this time, the deity must spend 8 hours a day on the project. During the remaining 16 hours of each day, the deity can perform any action it desires, so long as it remains within the realm. The astral links, planar traits, and terrain remain unchanged until the labor is complete.
All of these seem reasonable to me.


Travel
A deity of rank 1 or higher can use greater teleport as a spell-like ability at will, as the spell cast by a 20th-level character, except that the deity can transport only itself and up to 100 pounds of objects per divine rank. A deity of rank 6 or higher also can use plane shift as a spell-like ability at will, as the spell cast by a 20th-level character, except that the deity can only transport itself and up to 100 pounds of objects. If the deity has a familiar, personal mount, or personal intelligent weapon, the creature can accompany the deity in any mode of travel if the deity touches it. The creature’s weight counts against the deity’s weight limit.
I would restrict greater teleport to DvR 11 or Higher. Maybe between 1 and 10 can use normal teleport. The same goes with plane shift, 11 and higher plane shift with perfect accuracy while 1-10 use it with a normal amount of miss-chance.


Familiar
A deity of rank 1 or higher with levels as a sorcerer or a wizard has the ability to treat any creature of a given kind as a familiar, as long as that creature is within a distance of one mile per divine rank of the deity. This special familiar ability only applies to one creature at a time, but the deity can switch between one creature and another instantaneously, as long as the second creature is within range. This special familiar ability does not replace the deity’s ability to have a normal familiar, which could be any kind of eligible creature.
I would probably restrict it to 1 creature per divine rank except for greater deities, and restricted to animals and magical beasts unless there is a suiting creature type for their portfolio.

Kizara
2008-05-06, 01:44 AM
You seriously need mechanics for this?

In your games, characters seriously go up to gods, kill them and take their stuff/godhood?

As for your post, any mechanic that requires 6 paragraphs to explain is a bad mechanic.


Some ideas to try:

1) When you kill a creature with a Divine Rank, you gain half its DvR, rounded down. (end of mechanic)

2) When you kill a creature with a Divine Rank, you may attempt to absorb its divinity. Make a Fortitude save (DC equals creatures HD + charisma modifier (that's going to be in the high 50s for most smaller gods)) to withstand the physical trauma of absorbing the being's divinity. Failure results in your destruction. Now make a Will save (same DC), failure results in you going permanently insane. Both of these afflictions can only be remedied by the direct action of a greater diety. If you make both saves, you gain the creature's DvR.

3) When you kill a creature with a DvR, make a Fortitude save from the immense backlash of divine primal energies (DC: 1/2HD + Cha mod of creature slain). If you fail, you are disintegrated. If you succeed, you gain a DvR according to the following table:

Slain Creatures DvR Your DvR gained.
0 ....................... 0
1-5 ................... 1
6-10 .................. 2
11-15 ................ 4
16-19 ................ 6

Fizban
2008-05-06, 02:11 AM
And why is yours so much better? Aside from it being obviously slanted against gaining divine ranks, which is obviously the whole point of this thread, it treats them like some sort of supernatural effect that requires a bunch of saves to attain. Since when do you make a save to gain something (Actually I have seen a few cases, but those would all have been better done with skill/level checks, and thus reinforce my point. No I don't remember what they are.).See below for more argument.*

I like the idea of tracking divine experience. The way I'm reading this is that you track divine xp separately, so that you essentially have two levels: a character level, and a divine (rank) level. When you kill or defeat something with divine rank, you gain divine xp according to the normal xp table, except you use the foes DR-1 instead of the usual CR on the table. Your DR levels up as it gains experience just as a character does, and you split the rewards of battle between the party the same as normal xp.

I basically gives all characters past a certain point (once they can begin godslaying) a second class, almost like a gestalt, that they get to play with. This is great for epic levels, when most classes stagnate and just start building up feats. It also means there's two power scales: your character and divine levels. One could be incredibaly skilled but have no cosmic power, or be naught but a peasant, who has great divine power and uses it to gain more, after surviving a battle with a minor god. You may want to consider grouping the salient divine abilities, to avoid everyone taking all the same ones, such as alter reality. This would require a bit more work, creating god-classes, but that sounds pretty cool too.

*And if you're going to argue about killing gods, go take a look at the greek pantheon. Plenty of gods fighting and getting killed there. Also plenty of demi and minor gods that had plenty to fear from mortals. And of course there's the fact that some people want to fight gods in their DnD, and there's no problem with that.

Kizara
2008-05-06, 02:39 AM
And why is yours so much better? Aside from it being obviously slanted against gaining divine ranks, which is obviously the whole point of this thread, it treats them like some sort of supernatural effect that requires a bunch of saves to attain. Since when do you make a save to gain something (Actually I have seen a few cases, but those would all have been better done with skill/level checks, and thus reinforce my point. No I don't remember what they are.).See below for more argument.*

Because my ideas are not complicated, do not require a bunch of exceptions and extra book-keeping. The point behind them is to keep the flavor and signifigance of gaining DvRs, while having a straightforward mechanic to deal with the rare occurance.


I like the idea of tracking divine experience. The way I'm reading this is that you track divine xp separately, so that you essentially have two levels: a character level, and a divine (rank) level. When you kill or defeat something with divine rank, you gain divine xp according to the normal xp table, except you use the foes DR-1 instead of the usual CR on the table. Your DR levels up as it gains experience just as a character does, and you split the rewards of battle between the party the same as normal xp.

I'm glad you like alot more bookkeeping. Also, even DvR 1 is increadibly powerful. It isn't slightly better, it isn't like, say, gaining vampirism. It's like becoming a god. Have a look at the salient divine abilities. Specifically Irrestible Blows (all attacks touch attacks, auto-stun effect on each blow), Improved Spell Resistance (giving you SR 53, at least), and automatic metamagic (think DMM, now remove the whole turning attempt restriction).


*And if you're going to argue about killing gods, go take a look at the greek pantheon. Plenty of gods fighting and getting killed there. Also plenty of demi and minor gods that had plenty to fear from mortals. And of course there's the fact that some people want to fight gods in their DnD, and there's no problem with that.

Really? If those mortals aren't level 21 characters, I flatly disagree with you.

Let's do an example, right out of deities and demigod's olympian pantheon:

Hercules (the first demigod I could find)
DvR 6
Fighter 20/Barbarian 20/Outsider 20

800 Hp natural (no buffs/effects)
Init: +11
AC 44

Attacks: +67/62/57/52 Melee, slightly less for ranged
Damage: 1d20+51

DR 20/Epic and adamantium
SR 37

Immune to practically everything, including most elements and basically all status types.

5/day reroll a dice roll.

Note: He didn't even pick that great divine abilities, taking divine weapon focus/spec, which is as crappy as it is for normal characters.

But he still has Divine Rage, that grants him +10 strength and consitution. Also Alter Size, that allows him to become Colossal, gaining the appropriate bonus to strength and reach as if he had been advanced to that size (+32 I believe), although suffering some attack and AC penalties.

SLA list of like 30 spells, including many good ones (freedom of movement, word of chaos, summon monster IX). CL 20th.

Can sense things at a preception of 5 miles like a normal man can within 30ft.

After all this, he is basically immune to everything, has something like +60 to hit, and does like 100 damage a hit (without power attacking, if we have him PA for, say, 20, that adds +40 to his damage, per hit) and has 4 attacks. And he isn't even optimized that well. Also, I didn't include every stat or ability, just enough to give an impression. For the rest I suggest you look at pg 123 of your DnDeg book.

Also: He is one of the weakest gods in the book.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-05-06, 02:42 AM
And why is yours so much better? Aside from it being obviously slanted against gaining divine ranks, which is obviously the whole point of this thread, it treats them like some sort of supernatural effect that requires a bunch of saves to attain. Since when do you make a save to gain something (Actually I have seen a few cases, but those would all have been better done with skill/level checks, and thus reinforce my point. No I don't remember what they are.).See below for more argument.*

I like the idea of tracking divine experience. The way I'm reading this is that you track divine xp separately, so that you essentially have two levels: a character level, and a divine (rank) level. When you kill or defeat something with divine rank, you gain divine xp according to the normal xp table, except you use the foes DR-1 instead of the usual CR on the table. Your DR levels up as it gains experience just as a character does, and you split the rewards of battle between the party the same as normal xp.

I basically gives all characters past a certain point (once they can begin godslaying) a second class, almost like a gestalt, that they get to play with. This is great for epic levels, when most classes stagnate and just start building up feats. It also means there's two power scales: your character and divine levels. One could be incredibaly skilled but have no cosmic power, or be naught but a peasant, who has great divine power and uses it to gain more, after surviving a battle with a minor god. You may want to consider grouping the salient divine abilities, to avoid everyone taking all the same ones, such as alter reality. This would require a bit more work, creating god-classes, but that sounds pretty cool too.

*And if you're going to argue about killing gods, go take a look at the greek pantheon. Plenty of gods fighting and getting killed there. Also plenty of demi and minor gods that had plenty to fear from mortals. And of course there's the fact that some people want to fight gods in their DnD, and there's no problem with that.

Pretty well hit the nail on the head with this post, thanks Fizban. :biggrin:

arkanis
2008-05-06, 05:36 AM
It's a good idea. But it could be simplified simply by allowing creatures of HD 20+ to exchange normal XP for divine ranks and just place an appropriate cost and HD requirement on the exchange (20HD for Rank 0-1, 30HD for Rank 2-4, 40HD for Rank 4-8, 50HD for Rank 9-18, 60HD for Rank 19+). Just an idea.

Kizara
2008-05-06, 05:51 AM
It's a good idea. But it could be simplified simply by allowing creatures of HD 20+ to exchange normal XP for divine ranks and just place an appropriate cost and HD requirement on the exchange (20HD for Rank 0-1, 30HD for Rank 2-4, 40HD for Rank 4-8, 50HD for Rank 9-18, 60HD for Rank 19+). Just an idea.

You could further simplify this to say 1 DvR per 10HD over 20. Thus, a 30HD creature could drop 10 HD for DvR 1. That's fairly close to reasonable.

Stycotl
2008-05-06, 10:31 AM
if you are really trying to say that krimm's idea is bad because it is complicated, then d&d is not the right game for you to be playing in the first place. i would assume that this means you do not play much out of anything but core, and from your posts, even that is completely nerfed/tailored.

that is ok, for your table. but that does not mean that everyone else has the same mindset as you.

krimm: i think the numbers need to be tinkered with, but the idea has merit. for example: the rule about the divine being needing HD=opponent's HD, and DR=1/4 opponent's HD seems a little off. using this method, characters would not be able to benefit from any divine being, but only certain ones. it would be interesting in a chronicle where the pc's are tough enough to challenge a god, but the only one that qualifies for their challenging is the one that they worship, as opposed to the one that they are fighting.

aaron out.

arkanis
2008-05-06, 10:38 AM
You could further simplify this to say 1 DvR per 10HD over 20. Thus, a 30HD creature could drop 10 HD for DvR 1. That's fairly close to reasonable.

Woah, what? You mean actually lose ten levels in exchange for +1DvR? That doesn't seem like a fair exchange at all.

What I was originally saying is that the HD would work as a prerequisite, not a sacrifice. The reason for that is simply because a creature with a divine rank should be of a certain power otherwise it's just silly and ridiculous. A Tiny Squirrel with 1/4 of a HD possessing a Divine Rank would just be ridiculous, but an Awakened Enlarged Squirrel with 40 HD and a Divine Rank could certainly pass off as some sort of tribal god.

Regord_Silentflame
2008-05-06, 02:20 PM
Woah, what? You mean actually lose ten levels in exchange for +1DvR? That doesn't seem like a fair exchange at all.

What I was originally saying is that the HD would work as a prerequisite, not a sacrifice. The reason for that is simply because a creature with a divine rank should be of a certain power otherwise it's just silly and ridiculous. A Tiny Squirrel with 1/4 of a HD possessing a Divine Rank would just be ridiculous, but an Awakened Enlarged Squirrel with 40 HD and a Divine Rank could certainly pass off as some sort of tribal god.

ACTUALLY, losing 5, perhaps 10 HD would be worth gaining DR1 from nothing, because of the amazing abilities you gain, like immunities, the ability to take 20 on everything, it's just increadible.

I do like the idea of this though, I think I'll throw in my hat on how to make it more D&D rules-friendly-ish.

My thought is, basically you take a feat that allows you to start gaining divine xp. from that point on, you lose some of your xp, let's say 10%, but for each encounter you're in, you gain Dxp equal to the CR, or the HD of the creature. If you're taking on CR 10 or 10 HD creatures, then you'd get DR 1 after 100 enemies, which considering as your level goes up, the CR/HD goes up, takes a few levels, but you'll get it.

Note, this is a little odd, since it gleans no initial benefit, but it would be like taking on a prestige class just for the lvl 10 ability, it's a long wait, but it's worth it. Feel free to hate my idea though.

L'Aent'fon
2008-05-06, 03:06 PM
Here's an idea that's been bumping around in my head for a while and I've finally remembered to post it here. ...

Greetings,

It sounds like you're trying to fiddle with a mechanic that codifies deific level power: specific ways to acquire deific powers, and how various deities can use such power to do god-like-things.

Way back in the day, WoTC produced a supplement series that did exactly that. It is called "The Primal Order" (or TPO for short.) It is not a stand-alone game, but a supplement intended for use with whatever game system you wish to use (the extensive appendices provide the framework for how to use the mechanics it presents with all sorts of game systems: from GURPS, to WoD, to Harn, to Shadowrun!)

You can still acquire copies of the 2nd edition-printing of it off of Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Order-Peter-Adkison/dp/1880992000/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210103580&sr=8-2).

I heartily recommend the series which consists of the "core" book TPO, and three published supplements: "Pawns: The Opening Move," "Knights: Strategies in Moton," and "Chessboards: The Planes of Possibility."

You can find a fuller review, and an overview of the TPO mechanics here (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_2459.html).

Hope this helps! (At least by providing ideas!)

arkanis
2008-05-06, 05:15 PM
I'm going to argue that 10 HD sacraficed just to gain a divine rank is good at first, but as you gain more and more divine ranks they become relatively less useful with the only exception being your comparison to others with divine ranks. So 10 HD per +1DvR doesn't suit it because of the law of diminishing returns. That was my only reasoning (I would totally kill 10 levels to add a divine rank 0 to a character, but after gaining all those immunities, not so much would I care about merely getting a small power boost that 10 HD could've added more epic spells to overcome x10 over)

I really think the primal rank thing is a pretty good idea, but I'm still leaning towards my own or Krimm's original idea.

Baron Corm
2008-05-06, 06:20 PM
I think Kizara's ideas would be better in a campaign where this happened very rarely, as you won't be killing enough gods to "level up". The kind of campaign where killing the god would probably be the end of the campaign anyway. Krimm's would be better for an epic campaign.

arkanis
2008-05-06, 07:23 PM
I don't think people should be adding divine ranks to non-epic players. That's sort of a given as I noted earlier about giving squirrels divine ranks.

Kizara
2008-05-06, 07:28 PM
Honestly, if you want a no-cost 'system' to gain DvRs...

"You gain half of slain creature's DvR' is all you need really. If you have a party that helped you, you split it up.

Honestly, what more is needed?

arkanis
2008-05-06, 09:11 PM
Something that allows you the ability to slay an immortal creature immune to all your magic.

Fizban
2008-05-10, 03:38 AM
Because my ideas are not complicated, do not require a bunch of exceptions and extra book-keeping. The point behind them is to keep the flavor and signifigance of gaining DvRs, while having a straightforward mechanic to deal with the rare occurance.



I'm glad you like alot more bookkeeping. Also, even DvR 1 is increadibly powerful. It isn't slightly better, it isn't like, say, gaining vampirism. It's like becoming a god. Have a look at the salient divine abilities. Specifically Irrestible Blows (all attacks touch attacks, auto-stun effect on each blow), Improved Spell Resistance (giving you SR 53, at least), and automatic metamagic (think DMM, now remove the whole turning attempt restriction).


Really? If those mortals aren't level 21 characters, I flatly disagree with you.

Let's do an example, right out of deities and demigod's olympian pantheon:

Hercules (the first demigod I could find)
DvR 6
Fighter 20/Barbarian 20/Outsider 20

800 Hp natural (no buffs/effects)
Init: +11
AC 44

Attacks: +67/62/57/52 Melee, slightly less for ranged
Damage: 1d20+51

DR 20/Epic and adamantium
SR 37

Immune to practically everything, including most elements and basically all status types.

5/day reroll a dice roll.

Note: He didn't even pick that great divine abilities, taking divine weapon focus/spec, which is as crappy as it is for normal characters.

But he still has Divine Rage, that grants him +10 strength and consitution. Also Alter Size, that allows him to become Colossal, gaining the appropriate bonus to strength and reach as if he had been advanced to that size (+32 I believe), although suffering some attack and AC penalties.

SLA list of like 30 spells, including many good ones (freedom of movement, word of chaos, summon monster IX). CL 20th.

Can sense things at a preception of 5 miles like a normal man can within 30ft.

After all this, he is basically immune to everything, has something like +60 to hit, and does like 100 damage a hit (without power attacking, if we have him PA for, say, 20, that adds +40 to his damage, per hit) and has 4 attacks. And he isn't even optimized that well. Also, I didn't include every stat or ability, just enough to give an impression. For the rest I suggest you look at pg 123 of your DnDeg book.

Also: He is one of the weakest gods in the book.

Well, this fell off the first page when I wasn't paying attention, let's get back to it, shall we?

I haven't done any calculations either, but I'm pretty sure that for 60HD, +60AB is laughable. So is SR 53, considering how many spells just flat ignore it. All attacks as touch attacks is nice, but wraithstrike and other spells can do it just fine, and there's plenty of ways to get them to a fighter. The list of immunities, while impressive, isn't all that great. If we're assuming epic, then characters should have almost all of those already, and energy immunity, while useful, isn't what you should usually be worrying about. DR 15/epic is nice, but if it's epic level then there's going to be epic weapons and it doesn't matter, or people are dealing 100 damage per swing and don't care. In fact the only ability you get just for being a deity that I'm seeing as problematic is the porfolio (if your players get to choose it that could give some problematic information) and the domain spell like abilities (again, if your players get to choose them, they're gonna get some major power). Do note though, that the CL is only 10+DR, so anything dependent on CL or vulnerable to dispelling is practically useless.

Salient Divine Abilities, one by one: Alter Size, Alter form: yawn, shapechange wins. Alter Reality: the one problem, though oddly, having the luck domain gives you the most obvious bit of it. Automatic Metamagic: reduced metamagic is better when it applies to multiple feats, and this only gets one. It's good, but the worst use is persistent spell, and that problem has always been with the feat itself. Avatar: this one's kind a crazy, but epic spells and simiraculum can grant similar power, and this is on the high end of demigods at DR 6. Banestrike: yawn. Battlesense: more yawn. Call Creatures: *guffaw*. Clearsight: so wait, it's like true seeing, but not as good? That's funny. Command Plants: yawn. Command Creatures: dominate monster seems to be better. Craft Artifact: aside from pretty much just making more durable items (who sunders anyway?), it requires all of the crafting feats to take. Create Object: yawn, Greater: still yawn. Divine Air Mastery: *guffaw*. Divine Archery: I'm pretty sure there's a couple epic feat that let you do that. Divine Armor Mastery: not bad, actually makes armor useful at high levels for people with more than 10 dex (ability bonuses get cheap, especially with epic spells, but armor says no. Now it says yes.). Divine Bard: I'd rename it Epic Bard myself. Divine Battle Mastery: again, epic feats can almost do that by themselves, and seriously, it requires fighter 20, let's call it Epic Fighter. Divine Blast: we all know direct damage sucks. This doesn't even deal very much. It breaks barriers though, that's nice. Divine Blessing: it's a mook buff that you can only use on your divine rank's worth of mooks. Sad. Divine Celerity: with 3.5 haste, this ain't all that great, there's an epic feat for it and plenty of cheap items. If it was still 3.0 haste, from when the book was written, now that would be powerful. Divine Creation: the only problem is the lack of an HD cap, which means you can create creature X with 10^tons HD, and then sleep for the rest of time while it kills everything. Divine Dodge: okay, now here's something good. Never gonna be much better than displacement or greater blink, but it's proof against all means of attack, which the other two aren't. This is a good ability, this is something that would break a character. Divine Druid: shapechange. Divine Earth Mastery: see Divine Air Mastery.

Okay, this is taking forever, I'm gonna stop now. The ones that matter: Divine Dodge (high miss chance on everything with no counter), Alter Reality (wish cheese, but better), Divine Creation (no HD cap), Avatar (there are now 7 of me), Divine Fast Healing (that's a lot of healing, though compare to the Minor Shapeshift feat), Extra Domain (because free spells at will is problematic), Indomitable Strength (cause grappling's broken), Irresistible Blows (note however that the save DC is low, and touch attacks can be found without it), Possess Mortal (Avatar Lite), Supreme Initiative (thought it doesn't protect you against surprise, and wizards do this anway),.

It's a Trap!'s: Divine Rogue (let's see you make a DC 100 save to negate that attack), Instant Counterspell (there's spells to let you do that), Spontaneous Wizard Spells (okay, it is frickin awesome, but you would have had the right spells anyway, cause you're a wizard, or you could just be a sorcerer, since Arcane Mastery lets you make up spells on the spot).

In sum: most of the salient divine abilities are equalled or outclassed by epic feats and 9th level spells. The ones that are useful are powerful, but still not far out of reach of an epic character.The natural bonuses of being a deity are easily duplicated with equipment and spells. Additionally, Krimm's method requires the defeat of multiple deities before the characters aquire even the smallest of these powers, and to get them, they must be able to overcome them, which means they aren't that great anyway. And if they do it pre-epic, then either the god sucked and had it coming, you handed it to them without much of a fight, or they're good enough that they don't need to be epic to beat gods. Perfectly possible with high level wizard backing.

Apologies for the wall of text, hope I don't sound too snarky, etc.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-05-10, 04:43 AM
One thing I forgot to mention: This system is sort of designed with my setting in mind, and anyone who knows that bit about it knows there are plenty of gods. DvR 0 or 1 creatures are like the commoners of The City of the Gods. And not only that, they're all over the nature part(Eden), so you can just walk into a dungeon(if you're high enough level) and come across a level 21 DvR Cleric or what have you just screwing around and potentially looking for a fight, just for kicks.

Kizara
2008-05-10, 04:59 AM
Did you even read the part where I said "Really? If those mortals aren't level 21 characters, I flatly disagree with you."

Cause you then went on to describe all the options one has at epic levels and how you can challenge the gods with them:

I never actually disputed this.

The implication in the OP and some after is that one can do this notably BEFORE epic levels.

As it states in the ELH itself, epic characters are alike unto the gods, are likely able to challenge them, and even to become ones themselvse.

Fizban
2008-05-12, 04:25 AM
The point I was more trying to make is that god's aren't just challengable, but are actually unremarkable to epic characters. Thus a they would be more of a challenge for non-epic characters who don't have all the same powers. Also, considering that Deities and Demigods says that most gods have over 40HD, and the example of Hercules has 60, you'd think they'd be a bit better than what you can pull of with a level 30 character. Most of the stuff that requires epic characters to fight in that description is just from a massive amount of HD: high AB (though the total I'm still sure is weak), high hp, high saves, high SR, all a product of a ridiculous HD total. They even state that they give 20 outsider HD pretty much as a gimme bonus for any pre-made god. A character with divine ranks still only has their normal HD, and only gains a few common resistances, and a power that is broken, either way too powerful or way too weak, with the powers not balanced against each other at all. The bonus of divine ranks is the option of the high-powered-broken salient abilities. A party of sub epic levels has a good chance of beating a god of similar HD and power, as long as they aren't using any of the broken powers either. Probably not before 15th, maybe 10th if the god reallly sucked, but there's plenty of weak gods out there with useless powers (say, all their divine abilities are esoteric knowledges), just as there are crappy NPC's with pointless multiclassing and craft (basketweaving). As long as the god's base power (character levels or unaltered monster stats) isn't overwhelmingly above the PC's, and they don't have many more divine ranks, there should be no problem competing against a god.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-05-14, 03:38 AM
Another addition, made something of an analysis on the Divine Rank system as it is, and did a few changes that I think makes them better suited for PC's of way high level with divine ranks.