Why not run away OR another episode of LS?

[Silkenfist]

I am wondering why Lien chose not to run away from a horde of enraged Orcs. I know that Paladins have to act honorable but fleeing from a horde bent on harming you isn't exactly what strikes me as a dishonorable act. Furthermore, there is nobody she is protecting by staying behind. It is unreasonable to assume that a single Paladin could hold off an Orc tribe enough to buy the others any time on their escape.

Thus, I request an alignment shift for Lien towards Lawful Stupid. Dissenting votes?

[Remirach]

It's possible that Elan, Durkon, and Daigo were incorrect about her reasons for not running. After all, Daigo assumes that Hinjo, as a paladin, would disapprove of pre-marital sex but Lien's engaged in that precise behavior herself. Maybe they just THINK she's Lawful Stupid because of her class.

Miko appeared to be Lawful Stupid in her encounter with the ogres but she wound up reversing the perception entirely. Not that Lien is the next Miko. (We hope.)

[Laurentio]

It's possible that Elan, Durkon, and Daigo were incorrect about her reasons for not running. After all, Daigo assumes that Hinjo, as a paladin, would disapprove of pre-marital sex but Lien's engaged in that precise behavior herself.
Was she already a paladin at that age? Or faults are retroactive, in paladin's code?

Laurentio

[Anterean]

Was she already a paladin at that age? Or faults are retroactive, in paladin's code?

Laurentio

Or maybe it's not considered a fault ?
I have yet to hear a convincing argument as for why pre-marital sexual relationships would be a violation of the paladins code as long as all parties know what they are going into and do so of their own free will

[Remirach]

Was she already a paladin at that age? Or faults are retroactive, in paladin's code?

Laurentio

Miko was recruited as a paladin at age 13, so it's certainly possible. Even if she weren't, though, it seems like paladins have a stuffy reputation that may not be entirely fair. If we haven't heard from Lien's own mouth why she stayed behind, taking the other three's word for it might be a mistake.

They've had bad prior experience...

[Laurentio]

They've had bad prior experience...
I agree on this. Apparently, anytime a paladin speak of past events, or anyone speaks of a past event involving paladins, there is some degree of biased disinformation. Really, I note this in the comic all the time ("Blade drawn in self defence" Yes, likely.)

And as Junior Prom is for the 11th grade year, and she has been recruited at 13 (I missed this) she was already a Paladin.
Again, if we go with Daigo words, he "thought he might be disappointed a little", not "He will unleash hell on us". Maybe Daigo was sarcastic, but seems to me a devote followers, that won't cheat his lord on any important issue.

So, probably not committed sex is not even so bad for a paladin of Azure City. Good for them, even if, this way, Miko could have had some O Type Treasure before messing with reality. Ops, I get mean again. Bad me.

Laurentio

[Roderick_BR]

Very good question... maybe she's upset at the orcs worshipping a non-real god? Nothing on the paladin code says you need to fight anything attacking you, if there's no one in need of help. Her allies all managed to escape fine.

As for the pre-marital sex issue, I think it's not so much about Hinjo being a paladin, but being the lawful guy, that's also a lord, therefore he's expected to respect tradition more. Think like today, when you talk to older people about it. Among the mixed responses, you'll find a lot of people that dislikes it ("kids these days...")

And while I'm at it, I'll comment again how Daigo integrated himself well into the party's humor, when he talked down to Elan, and now agreeing with Elan and Durkon about the "paladin" thing :smallbiggrin:

[Yoritomo Himeko]

I am wondering why Lien chose not to run away from a horde of enraged Orcs. I know that Paladins have to act honorable but fleeing from a horde bent on harming you isn't exactly what strikes me as a dishonorable act. Furthermore, there is nobody she is protecting by staying behind. It is unreasonable to assume that a single Paladin could hold off an Orc tribe enough to buy the others any time on their escape.

Thus, I request an alignment shift for Lien towards Lawful Stupid. Dissenting votes?

I honestly don't know what Lien thought was going to happen. Did she really think she was going to take on all of those goblins? I know they are supposed to sacrifice themselves, but this is ridiculous. :smallannoyed:

The Sapphire Guard has worn out its welcome. What was once a very cool and interesting faction is now a joke. It's time to ditch these guys. :smallmad:

The exception is O-chul. I loved his mini-arc.

[hewhosaysfish]

Has anyone considered that Lien may have been trying to buy the others time to escape? It was a close run thing, after all.
Isn't loyally fighting in a doomed rear-guard action the stuff of a classic paladin? Song of Roland and all that jazz?

[archon_huskie]

I agree on this. Apparently, anytime a paladin speak of past events, or anyone speaks of a past event involving paladins, there is some degree of biased disinformation. Really, I note this in the comic all the time ("Blade drawn in self defence" Yes, likely.)

And as Junior Prom is for the 11th grade year, and she has been recruited at 13 (I missed this) she was already a Paladin.


Laurentio
MIKO was recruited at 13. We do not know Lien's recruitment age.

[†Seer†]

Did she really think she was going to take on all of those goblins?

The Sapphire Guard has worn out its welcome. What was once a very cool and interesting faction is now a joke. It's time to ditch these guys. :smallmad:


Of course not. She planned on taking on all of those orcs :)

I still find the Sapphire Guard interesting. They've suffered a huge defeat and yet they're still going. They're not outdated either. The OotS couldn't have gotten as far as they have without AC survivors and the SG (namely, the resistane members allowing Haley/Belkar to survive, and Hinjo and the boats allowing Durkon/Elan to survive. V's left out because he probably could have survived on her own.)

@ OP: I think if you cast a ballot for LS for Lien until you know what her reasons were, we'd have to cast one for TI(True Ignorant) for you :smallwink:

[BooTheHamster]

Have you guys considered that maybe she didn't run away because the SG Paladins are immune to fear? I mean, running is a fear response, so she wouldn't do it and would only leave if ordered to do so by Hinjo.

She may have also stayed behind to try and talk to the Orcs in an attempt to finish the mission. Paladins usually have high Charisma after all.

[Roderick_BR]

Has anyone considered that Lien may have been trying to buy the others time to escape? It was a close run thing, after all.
Isn't loyally fighting in a doomed rear-guard action the stuff of a classic paladin? Song of Roland and all that jazz?
See, now *that* makes sense. Maybe she feared they wouldn't have time to run, so she stayed behind to distract the majority of the warriors.

[NikkTheTrick]

Since Lien appears to be uninjured, I'd say it is unlikely she engaged in actual combat. Most likely, she attempted to negotiate.

That said, it looks like pre-marital sex is not a taboo in OotS universe. Given current arrangement, it looks like it's OK as long as protection is used.

[Helanna]

In the immortal words of Sturm Brightblade:

"Run? From this rabble?"

That said, I think she has some type of ulterior motive. What that could be, I don't know. Maybe she has some type of secret mission? Unlikely, but possible!

[Silkenfist]

Has anyone considered that Lien may have been trying to buy the others time to escape? It was a close run thing, after all.
Isn't loyally fighting in a doomed rear-guard action the stuff of a classic paladin? Song of Roland and all that jazz?

How much time do you think you can buy against a horde of 60+ rampaging Orcs? Zero would be my guess. One of them would get hit by an AoO while the rest just runs past them. Also, running away with the others doesn't prevent you from sacrificing yourself at a later point with better circumstances.

[Chronos]

I have yet to hear a convincing argument as for why pre-marital sexual relationships would be a violation of the paladins code as long as all parties know what they are going into and do so of their own free willBecause pre-marital sex is un-lawful. Paladins are about more than just Good vs. Evil.

And yes, this does mean that Durkon was acting against his alignment when he slept with Hilgya. Here is where we point out that first of all, Thor seems to be a lot less lawful than his clerics, and second, that that was only one act, and a single act usually isn't enough to cause an alignment shift.

[teratorn]

How much time do you think you can buy against a horde of 60+ rampaging Orcs? Zero would be my guess.
60+ orcs? Most would have only 5 hp and CR 1/2. A band of about 100 could also have 10 3rd level sargeants, 5 5th level lieutenants, and 3 7th-level captains. Nothing impressive, only Daigo would be in some sort of trouble. Paladins know no fear, they were a match for the enemy, so she simply held her ground and expected the others to do the same.

[NikkTheTrick]

Because pre-marital sex is un-lawful.
Do we have any evidence that it is unlawful in OotS universe?

[SteveMB]

Because pre-marital sex is un-lawful. Paladins are about more than just Good vs. Evil.

As I noted on the main #554 thread, we don't know the specific laws and taboos of that culture.

[Remirach]

Unmarried sex can't be TOO unlawful or why would they have a whole tavern dedicated to it in LG heaven? Roy's fling with Celia didn't even warrant a mention from the Deva, and he was already borderline NG.

[Steveio]

Roy's Archon mentions that the patrons of the Lawful Good afterlife prefer to have people feel guilty about premarital sex.

So while it's not unlawful, it isn't entirely accepted.

[Remirach]

Roy's Archon mentions that the patrons of the Lawful Good afterlife prefer to have people feel guilty about premarital sex.

So while it's not unlawful, it isn't entirely accepted.
I can buy that, and I can buy it being stricter on paladins than just regular Lawful folk. But technically the Archon says their Lawful patrons expect to be made to feel guilty about sex, not that they deserve to feel guilty. Since that's what the LG folk actually want, they could have set things up that way to accommodate their weird hang-ups rather than have it implemented as a punishment.

[David Argall]

Or maybe it's not considered a fault ?
I have yet to hear a convincing argument as for why pre-marital sexual relationships would be a violation of the paladins code as long as all parties know what they are going into and do so of their own free will
Now to start with, free will is chaotic, not the lawful prefered by paladins and other lawfuls. Under any lawful system, sexual relations are either forbidden or mandatory [sometimes both]. Our LG wants the experience to be beneficial for all parties, but their opinion on the subject is not important.
Pre-martial sex is another chaotic element. It does not take place under the required conditions, and so is forbidden.

Now whether Lein violated the paladin code is not clear since we don't know when she became a paladin. Miko was age 13, but O-Chul was possibly 8th level fighter [maybe 40?] when he became one. So Lein may or may not have been covered at that time. It was likely a sin in any case, tho given her comment about her mother, it may well be a regretted one.

[NikkTheTrick]

Pre-martial sex is another chaotic element. It does not take place under the required conditions, and so is forbidden.
Then why was it not raised in any way during Roy's trial?

[David Argall]

Then why was it not raised in any way during Roy's trial?

As has been noted before, we do not get a word for word transcript of Roy's trial, and we know that some elements were discussed off camera. So we can not say it was not raised. In fact we would assume it was raised, probably as a minor item, but still the presumption is that it was raised.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

How much time do you think you can buy against a horde of 60+ rampaging Orcs? Zero would be my guess. One of them would get hit by an AoO while the rest just runs past them. Also, running away with the others doesn't prevent you from sacrificing yourself at a later point with better circumstances.

It would also depend on the ground they have to cross. Open flat land? "Go around her!"
Bottleneck? "She's too tough!"

She also might have also allowed herself to be captured just to give the rest time to get away.

[Remirach]

So out of curiosity, is eating cake considered a chaotic act? Or only if it's not birthday cake?

[Querzis]

:smallsigh: Back in 482, her orders were to protect the civilians and the boat so she followed them.

But this time, shes on a diplomatic mission so shes stayed to talk with the orcs. I dont see how its supposed to be especially LS, as long as you dont care about what might happen to yourself, it is the best thing to do. The prospect of being sacrified to Banjo is more annoying and insulting then anything else to Lien. A paladin dont fear anything, so of course they will just run away if their duty is to run away like it was Miko duty to warn AC of the hobgobelins army, just like it was Hinjo duty to run away to help his people as the new king and just like it was Lien duty to run away to protect Hinjo junk.

But dont expect someone lawfull who fear nothing to run away from their duty just to protect themself. Lien was sent on the island to talk to the orcs, she wont stop her mission just because they became hostile. And honestly I dont see how its supposed to be LS because any Lawfull character, even LE one, who are immune to fear like paladins would do that.

[3Power]

I thought Lien didn't run because paladins are immune to fear.

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd

Also, on the whole premarital sex business, 'nuff said. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html)
In the OOTS universe, sex being dirty is a mortal concept.

[Lupy]

I honestly don't know what Lien thought was going to happen. Did she really think she was going to take on all of those goblins? I know they are supposed to sacrifice themselves, but this is ridiculous. :smallannoyed:

The Sapphire Guard has worn out its welcome. What was once a very cool and interesting faction is now a joke. It's time to ditch these guys. :smallmad:

The exception is O-chul. I loved his mini-arc.

How is the SG a joke?

Additionally, I think sh just wasn't scared of the orcs, and additionally, Roland fought a bajillion foes (were they Moors?), and Sturm stood against dragons. So it's not like other Pally haven't done great but stupid things.

[NikkTheTrick]

As has been noted before, we do not get a word for word transcript of Roy's trial, and we know that some elements were discussed off camera. So we can not say it was not raised. In fact we would assume it was raised, probably as a minor item, but still the presumption is that it was raised.
Or, we could say that we have absolutely no idea since we do not have irrefutable evidence either way. We cannot assume that it was brought simply because no one explicitly said that it wasnt. Also, Roy would call the hypocricy if Celia was mentioned in the trial when he was told about tavern of 1-night stands.

Marriage-free sex is not a taboo in LG afterlife. Durkon, who is quite LG, does not consider it a big deal. Especially since it did not take him too long to get busy back in Redmountain hills dungeon. Elan did not get any hostile reply for baing nude (and, despite what he said, not quite invisible) in public. Nale is lawful despite getting quite kinky with Sabine. And sabine not even minding the possibility of him having with Haley what she has with Elan a couple of hours later.

Those are pretty good arguments that pre-marital sex is not much of an impact on one's lawfulness...

[David Argall]

Or, we could say that we have absolutely no idea since we do not have irrefutable evidence either way.
Clearly wrong. In any given circumstance we have varying levels of evidence and we draw conclusions long before we reach irrefutable evidence. We start having ideas even when we have very weak evidence.


We cannot assume that it was brought simply because no one explicitly said that it wasnt.
This works two ways. You are wanting to claim it didn't happen and therefore... But you don't know it wasn't. Accordingly your claim is at most weak evidence.

When we examine the case, we pretty much automatically assume sex was a subject that came up during the trial. You really want to assert that a subject we obsess about was not brought up during the trial that was to cover your entire life? Now we can argue just what standards are being applied, but we would be amazed if the whole subject was ignored.


Also, Roy would call the hypocricy if Celia was mentioned in the trial when he was told about tavern of 1-night stands.
Again you are trying to argue that silence gives consent. Roy spent 8 weeks climbing the mountain after learning of the tavern of 1-night stands, and we know almost zero of what he said during that period. So there is a tremendous amount of time for him to have said there was hypocrisy offstage


Marriage-free sex is not a taboo in LG afterlife. Durkon, who is quite LG, does not consider it a big deal.
He however has big hangups about making it with a married woman. The gods involved are not ok with the hookup either. It is not unreasonable to think he was assuming marriage would be involved.


Elan did not get any hostile reply for baing nude in public.
?? Roy must rush to get him dressed before he gets hit with a sexual harassment suit.


And sabine not even minding the possibility of him having with Haley what she has with Elan a couple of hours later.
The comic offers different motives for Sabine here, according to which provides the most laughs. If you look too closely, they are inconsistent. But taking her later explanation as the truth, we have the problem that she is evil, sexually evil in particular, and her endorsement of an activity is hardly grounds for deeming it morally good, or even neutral.


Those are pretty good arguments that pre-marital sex is not much of an impact on one's lawfulness...
The exact impact may well vary with a variety of additional facts. [It's not unusual to deem it just fun, until she gets knocked up, which might be relevant to Hinjo and House Kato.] But minor negative is still negative.

[Beholder1995]

So out of curiosity, is eating cake considered a chaotic act? Or only if it's not birthday cake?

There's a significant difference between eating cake and having pre-marital sex. And plus, eating cake is a NEUTRAL act. COOKIES are chaotic. :smallwink:

EDIT::: Also, here's a better food analogy: "I like eating Oreos. But if I eat Oreos as much as I'd like, I'll get fat and regret it. BUT if I eat the 100 calorie Oreo snack packs, I'll never have to go a waking moment without indulging myself again! Isn't it wonderful that I'm incapable of limiting myself?"

[SPoD]

I got the impression from the dialogue that there was likely some entirely plausible reason in Lien's mind to stay, but the others don't have a clue what it was because they don't understand paladins in the first place. Who knows why they do any of the crazy stuff they do? Oy!

As in, it's a joke about people just getting accustomed to not understanding paladins and starting to dismiss all of their motivations as, "You know...paladins. Go figure!"

It would certainly play into the idea that Daigo and Kazumi are more worried about what would happen if Hinjo found out about their premarital sex than the paladins themselves would actually care.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

?? Roy must rush to get him dressed before he gets hit with a sexual harassment suit.

I think he meant the second time, in Azure City.

[Chronos]

I think he meant the second time, in Azure City.A bunch of drunk, horny girls on New Year's Eve ogling an incredibly hot guy are probably not the best standard by which to judge a culture's societal norms. Ask yourself: How would those ladies have reacted if they were sober? How about if it were Belkar going around naked, instead of Elan?

[David Argall]

;4296893']I think he meant the second time, in Azure City.

Same [sort of] answer.
302 features Hinjo telling us that he can't be associated with anything scandalous, which means that we are to regard Elan's behavior as scandalous. Being Elan with a 18+ charisma, he can pull it off, but he still tells us that the society does not approve of such behavior.

[Remirach]

I brought up the cake thing because I guess this whole thing confuses me beyond belief. Eating, drinking, eliminating, and mating are all very natural. Law versus Chaos is influenced by society, and different societies take different stances on sexual issues. Consider homosexual sex, "deviant" sex, prostitution and polygamy in addition to unmarried sex. Are any of these inherently chaotic or does it depend on what your government and society says on the issue?

The relevant question is what the beings of pure Law in the OOTS-verse think, because they're the final arbiters. And no evidence has been presented that they consider it Chaotic rather than simply Neutral.

[David Argall]

Consider homosexual sex, "deviant" sex, prostitution and polygamy in addition to unmarried sex. Are any of these inherently chaotic or does it depend on what your government and society says on the issue?

Our Lawful wants a definite pattern to anything and so is apt to look down on the temporary and casual. So there is very little that is inherent chaotic. It is much more that you do it without fixed pattern. Our one night stand is likely deemed chaotic in any lawful society, but the exact activity in it is not so much a concern.
The particular laws and social mores would be of high importance to the lawful. Whether the law requires daily public sex or that everyone die a virgin, the duty to obey the law is still there.

[Remirach]

Our Lawful wants a definite pattern to anything and so is apt to look down on the temporary and casual. So there is very little that is inherent chaotic. It is much more that you do it without fixed pattern. Our one night stand is likely deemed chaotic in any lawful society, but the exact activity in it is not so much a concern.

So would it be less chaotic, then, if you had a one night stand every Friday? You're being consistent and following a pattern!