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Rad
2008-05-06, 04:05 AM
The presence of two other tanks in the group had the elven Duskblade think about his poor longbow a bit. We homebrewed a feat that would allow him to use his arcane channel ability on ranged weapons as well, although the spell would not remain charged if the arrow misses.
Do you think that is balanced? What should we do when he reaches 13th level and gets to channel through a full attack? Were there "official" feats that allowed such things?

Thank you

RTGoodman
2008-05-06, 06:08 AM
The presence of two other tanks in the group had the elven Duskblade think about his poor longbow a bit. We homebrewed a feat that would allow him to use his arcane channel ability on ranged weapons as well, although the spell would not remain charged if the arrow misses.
Do you think that is balanced? What should we do when he reaches 13th level and gets to channel through a full attack? Were there "official" feats that allowed such things?

Thank you

Sounds pretty good to me. I mean, archery is always a lot weaker than melee, so it can't hurt to lets him use a primarily melee-centric ability with his longbow.

I can't think of anything official like this, but my former roommate is supposed to be sending me either a class or PrC that does this exact thing so I can proofread it. If I get a chance, I might see if he'll post it or let me do it for him.

Keld Denar
2008-05-06, 06:34 AM
It should be fine as either an ACF that replaces normal channeling or as a feat, and 2 different precidents lead me to this conclusion.

a) Elf Paladin ACF takes away melee smite and grants ranged smite. Smite is a similar ability to arcane channel...extra damage on a hit.

b) Arcane Archer class already has an "arcane channel" usable at range. Its called Imbue Arrow. Granted, the ability isn't atainable until about ECL 7 or 8 (AFB), but that class is considered extremely weak away and the ability is primarily centered around dropping short range spells at bow range.

Being able to arcane channel a rapid shot wouldn't be that over powered, as long as you apply the same duskblade condition of not affecting the same target with the same spell more than once. Otherwise you'll get Rapid Shot Enervations or Vampiric Touches that'll outright maul a single target.

Rad
2008-05-06, 07:19 AM
Thank you for the feedback. I take it that you advise me to go on and allow the feat to work on a full attack as well, right?

Talic
2008-05-06, 07:25 AM
Sounds pretty good to me. I mean, archery is always a lot weaker than melee, so it can't hurt to lets him use a primarily melee-centric ability with his longbow.

Tell that to a hulking hurler. Then watch as the non-optimized one hits the tarrasque with a rock big enough to knock it out in one shot.

The optimized one will knock it out for 8 months in one round.

Rad
2008-05-06, 07:44 AM
Tell that to a hulking hurler. Then watch as the non-optimized one hits the tarrasque with a rock big enough to knock it out in one shot.

The optimized one will knock it out for 8 months in one round.

Right, but we are talking about a duskblade class ability and the feat would not make an hypothetical HH any stronger.

Keld Denar
2008-05-06, 08:27 AM
Thank you for the feedback. I take it that you advise me to go on and allow the feat to work on a full attack as well, right?

Like I said, as long as you don't allow the same spell to affect the same target more than once in a full attack channel, same as a normal duskblade.

+5d6 from Shocking Grasp to 6 different targets isn't game breaking, its min level Scintilating Sphere with great placement....30d6 to a single target IS game breaking though, even for a first level spell (the most over powered in the game!).

After all, its just damage. Its of more advantage to burst damage single targets down than spread damage thin. A kobald with 1 HP can still shank you. If you impose that restriction, the Duskblade will have to choose between getting maxium effect (spreading out targets) or focusing a single target (thus losing the effect of multichannel).

Its the same reason why Whirlwind Attack and Hail of Arrows and all those maneuvers and abilities aren't overpowered. Sure, you make a dozen or so attacks in a round, but then you take a lot of attacks back, where as if you had focused fire and killed 1-2 tarets, you'd take less counterfire.

Rad
2008-05-06, 08:38 AM
that is a very good point.

weenie
2008-05-06, 08:39 AM
I'd say let him take a feat that allows that. He won't be able to full attack before level 13 while using it, and archery is normally very, very weak compared to meele, so it shouldn't really cause balance problems.

Talic
2008-05-06, 08:48 AM
Right, but we are talking about a duskblade class ability and the feat would not make an hypothetical HH any stronger.

It was directly in response to "I mean, archery is always a lot weaker than melee". Outside rebuttal to show that anyone who thinks that ranged attacks cannot be optimized either isn't trying, or doesn't know how to properly optimize a ranged attack.

Jack Mann
2008-05-06, 09:05 AM
I'd even consider switching up a few spells for you. Add in some of the archery-related spells from the ranger list, in exchange for some of the more melee-focused duskblade spells.

Burley
2008-05-06, 09:13 AM
It was directly in response to "I mean, archery is always a lot weaker than melee". Outside rebuttal to show that anyone who thinks that ranged attacks cannot be optimized either isn't trying, or doesn't know how to properly optimize a ranged attack.

I beleive, as you quoted, the topic is archery, not throwing giant rocks. Archery attacks are weaker than melee, because there isn't usually a strength bonus, and when there is, it means that the character is MAD for one attack form, or isn't hitting very often. Also, bows (even the really B.A. ones) can't rack up the same amount of damage that melee weapons, because they just don't have damage dice that even compare.

Let's also keep in mind that nobody actually plays the Hulking Hurler, as optimized as you infer. Some things are optimized, other things are game breaking. And, this thread seems to be about a real game, not the hypothetical universe that is exploder'd every other day, killing everybody except things with evasion.

RTGoodman
2008-05-06, 09:17 AM
Another thing I thought about while I was supposed to by taking my final exam this morning is that it might be cool to do something sort of like the Spellwarped Sniper's ability to turn AoE spells into rays. As a class feature or feat or something, maybe allow him to put AoE spells into arrows, so that you can fire a lightening bolt arrow or a fireball arrow or something that does all the damage to the creature you hit. Sort of like Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow, but only the target is affected by the spell damage. Might need some tweaking, but on the surface it doesn't sound overpowered.

Rad
2008-05-06, 09:20 AM
Another thing I thought about while I was supposed to by taking my final exam this morning is that it might be cool to do something sort of like the Spellwarped Sniper's ability to turn AoE spells into rays. As a class feature or feat or something, maybe allow him to put AoE spells into arrows, so that you can fire a lightening bolt arrow or a fireball arrow or something that does all the damage to the creature you hit. Sort of like Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow, but only the target is affected by the spell damage. Might need some tweaking, but on the surface it doesn't sound overpowered.

He currently has no AoE spells (and probably they are not in the Duskblade list).

Keld Denar
2008-05-06, 09:21 AM
Actually archery is pretty valid, just not as a fighter or ranger (the 2 classes primarily thought to be archers). Clerics make excelent archers, as do paladins-hybreds (with elf paladin sub) and bard hybreds (and especially paladins/bard hybreds!).

The trick is just finding enough bonus damage to stack onto each shot. A Bard Paladin with Devoted Performer, Dragonfire Inspiration, Divine Might, and who cast Divine Favor is looking at adding a ton of extra damage from the use of those abilities together with a magic strength bow and Rapid Shot.

Back to the OP. You liked my idea, but you never said what you were going to do....I kind of like the idea of making an Elf Duskblade racial sub level at 3 and 13 that replaces melee channel with Archery Channel, or a feat that requires bow proficiency (elf or level dip) that allows the user to switch between melee and ranged channeling at will.

Man, I also like the idea of a Halfling Duskblade racial sub, with thrown channel. A Halfling Duskblade13/Master Thrower5/Duskblade2 would be pretty nasty with palm throw, multichannel, and the skip toss ability.

RTGoodman
2008-05-06, 09:24 AM
He currently has no AoE spells (and probably they are not in the Duskblade list).

I was thinking Duskblades could pick up spells not on their list with one of their class features, like a Warmage and some others can (<something> Learning, I believe it's called).

I could be wrong, though, and I couldn't really check with my books about 180 miles away for the next few days. :smallredface:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-06, 10:35 AM
Actually archery is pretty valid, just not as a fighter or ranger (the 2 classes primarily thought to be archers). Clerics make excelent archers, as do paladins-hybreds (with elf paladin sub) and bard hybreds (and especially paladins/bard hybreds!).I prefer Ranger 2/Scout X with Swift Hunter. Pick up Many/Greater Manyshot and go to town with D6s. But other than that, archery builds are pretty hard to make for a newbie, as the best options aren't well represented in the fluff.

Chronos
2008-05-06, 12:53 PM
I prefer Ranger 2/Scout X with Swift Hunter. Pick up Many/Greater Manyshot and go to town with D6s.Isn't it generally better to go primarily ranger in a Swift Hunter build, rather than primarily Scout? Since rangers have full BAB, and all.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-06, 01:05 PM
Since we are talking to a dm and not the player, you might want to take a look at spell storing arrows. Most DMs I know do not allow them, but it is food for thought.

Rad
2008-05-07, 04:12 AM
Thank you for the replies. I don't think the player is into the swift hunter build and I am afraid that he is not going to be a primary archer. Now, I have severe doubts that you could be an archer without specializing in it but I'm not pushing him.


Since we are talking to a dm and not the player, you might want to take a look at spell storing arrows. Most DMs I know do not allow them, but it is food for thought.
Hmmm.... I'll look into that but I'm afraid that the wisard might get some ideas if he sees those. :smallconfused:

bosssmiley
2008-05-07, 04:18 AM
Nice idea Rad, an interesting variation on the Arcane Archer type and a themetically appropriate logical extension to the Duskblade (Duskbow?).