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Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-06, 09:34 PM
Can geomancers use both metamagic AND divine metamagic on spells they cast?

monty
2008-05-06, 09:41 PM
Divine casters use metamagic the same way arcane casters do. Divine metamagic is a feat (Complete Divine p. 80, if you want to look it up) that eliminates the spell level adjustment of metamagic feats - the same metamagic feats that arcane casters use - on your divine spells, in exchange for sacrificing turn attempts. It's also hideously overpowered if used right (or wrong, depending on your perspective).

Edit: I didn't answer that completely. As far as I can tell, DMM can be used on any spell, since it doesn't specify divine spells except in the fluff. If it is only divine, though, you might be able to do it anyway. The "best of both worlds" thing they get could be interpreted to apply to DMM as well.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-06, 09:46 PM
What I'm getting at here is something along the lines of having Batman and CoDzilla parent the spellcasting, DnD version of the anti-christ. DMM arcane spells, the magic domain, nightsticks, extra turning... the works. The idea makes for a neato BBEG anyway.

Nebo_
2008-05-06, 09:48 PM
Edit: I didn't answer that completely. As far as I can tell, DMM can be used on any spell, since it doesn't specify divine spells except in the fluff. If it is only divine, though, you might be able to do it anyway. The "best of both worlds" thing they get could be interpreted to apply to DMM as well.

The errata specifies that it only works on Divine spells.

RTGoodman
2008-05-06, 09:48 PM
As far as I can tell, DMM can be used on any spell, since it doesn't specify divine spells except in the fluff.

That's been fixed in the Errata. Divine Metamagic can only be used on Divine spells now.


EDIT: Apparently ninjas DO WORK THAT WAY.

tyckspoon
2008-05-06, 09:51 PM
Edit: I didn't answer that completely. As far as I can tell, DMM can be used on any spell, since it doesn't specify divine spells except in the fluff. If it is only divine, though, you might be able to do it anyway. The "best of both worlds" thing they get could be interpreted to apply to DMM as well.

Divine is specified in the errata. The answer to the question is yes, if Geomancers cast or count as casting divine spells. hmm.. I think the Spell Versatility feature qualifies, at least at first look.

monty
2008-05-06, 09:51 PM
The errata specifies that it only works on Divine spells.

Good to know, but does Geomancer allow your arcane spells to count as divine for DMM?

D Knight
2008-05-06, 09:53 PM
just prepare all your spells as divine since Geomancer works that way with the lay lines. also at stage 2 i think will look of your transformation take camals hump and cholofill now you are self relient.

Nebo_
2008-05-06, 09:54 PM
Good to know, but does Geomancer allow your arcane spells to count as divine for DMM?

Yes. But it's still a terrible, terrible class. Only good for Gestalt.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-06, 10:01 PM
So... Cleric/Druid up one side with Wizard up the other. PrC to Geomancer, Incantatrix, IotSV, Planar Shepherd, and/or anything else with a borked gimmick? Archmage and Spellwarp Sniper come to mind for ray fun, perhaps that one divine one... war chanter or something I think it was called. Chained love all around right? :smalltongue:

Chronos
2008-05-06, 10:02 PM
Yes. But it's still a terrible, terrible class. Only good for Gestalt.To elaborate, it only advances one of your two classes at a time. Giving up three levels to advance both at once (as with Mystic Theurge) is possibly, in some situations, marginally worth it. Giving up three levels just for a couple of nifty tricks, the best of which can be replicated by a single feat, is not at all worth it.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-06, 10:35 PM
What feat allows one to treat spells as arcane and/or divine? :smallconfused:

monty
2008-05-06, 10:51 PM
What feat allows one to treat spells as arcane and/or divine? :smallconfused:

There's the Alternate Source Spell feat from Dragon Magazine #325. It's a +0 metamagic feat that allows you to prepare an arcane spell as divine or vice versa.

D Knight
2008-05-07, 06:04 PM
Dude reread spell versatility it lets you perpare spell as ether arcane or divine so then they are not effect by the normal constrans like ASF.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-07, 07:08 PM
If ASS is that easy a fix, why the heck aren't Wizards running around in Mountain Plate and spamming Divine spells? Better yet, doesn't that mean that one qualifies for arcane/divine PrCs with just one base class?

:smalleek: "This is madness!"
:smallfurious: "THIS! IS! WIZARDS!" *kick*

monty
2008-05-07, 07:23 PM
If ASS is that easy a fix, why the heck aren't Wizards running around in Mountain Plate and spamming Divine spells? Better yet, doesn't that mean that one qualifies for arcane/divine PrCs with just one base class?

:smalleek: "This is madness!"
:smallfurious: "THIS! IS! WIZARDS!" *kick*

You still have to be able to cast spells of the appropriate level. You can't cast Meteor Swarm as a divine spell unless you can also cast 9th level divine spells. Also, every arcane spell you prepare as divine means one less regular divine spell.

Chronos
2008-05-07, 07:54 PM
I'm not sure where you get that reading, monty... From the text of the feat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Alternative_Source_Spell,Dragon),
An alternative-sourced spell uses up a spell slot from the class that normally grants the spell. Such a spell is prepared normally. An alternative-sourced spell is cast as if your caster level were 1 level lower. For example, a 1st-level cleric/6th-level wizard casts a divine fireball as a 5th-level wizard.

Now, it does require that you be able to cast both kinds of spells before you take the feat, so you'd still be dropping one level in cleric or whatever (which is presumably why most wizards don't get the feat). But dropping one level on cleric is a lot better than dropping three levels on it, especially since it leaves you free to take some other PrC that's actually useful.

monty
2008-05-07, 08:01 PM
Hmm, I must have misread "the class that normally grants the spell" as "the class that normally grants spells of that type" or something like that.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-07, 08:38 PM
So... now the question remains: how best can one exploit this? Are there any PrCs out there that grant divine spells without sacrificing arcane levels?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-07, 08:44 PM
So... now the question remains: how best can one exploit this? Are there any PrCs out there that grant divine spells without sacrificing arcane levels?

Rainbow Servant. Expect a giant forum knife fest to break out about the class now.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-07, 09:00 PM
How did I not remember the Peloraphiliac class? Not a bad 1 level PrC dip if it means arcane might becomes divine might.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-07, 09:02 PM
Rainbow Servant. Expect a giant forum knife fest to break out about the class now.

Yea, because there is confusion in the txt vs chart (text saying full spellcasting, chart saying they loose four caster levels). Some say "Go with text, that's how we're supposed to do it", and some say "That's horridly broken, go wth the chart". As loosing four caster levels is about on par with Mystic Theurge in power, with half the number of spells per day, some say that loosing four caster levels is horridly underpowered, and it should have full progression.

In short, 10th level of Rainbow Servant grants you full divine spellcasting with your arcane spell slots. So you can do Divine Power and Righteous Might. Dip a class that gives you turning, and you can do CoDzilla cheeze as a batman wizard. Have nice day.

Of course, that's not NEAR as bad as what it would do for, say, Beguiler would do. Spontanious casting of any cleric spell in any resource the GM cares to let in. Brokentastic!

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-07, 09:12 PM
Speaking of turning, didn't Batman become a Cleric not to long ago? I seem to recall spontanious domain spells and the magic domain being part of that fight. Something about being able to Anyspell what you need at any point in time comes to mind.

Chronos
2008-05-07, 09:17 PM
Rainbow Servant. Expect a giant forum knife fest to break out about the class now.Aside from the other debate about Rainbow Servant, I had understood that even though the spells came from the cleric (and domains) list, they were still cast as arcane spells. At least, that's the way the couatls themselves do it.

Hadrian_Emrys, the Pelorphilac class is Radiant Servant. Completely different from Rainbow Servant. Rainbow Servant is a couatl-themed class, which advances arcane spellcasting, and eventually adds the cleric list and the Good, Law, and Air domains to your class spell list (plus some other minor benefits).

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-07, 09:21 PM
Aside from the other debate about Rainbow Servant, I had understood that even though the spells came from the cleric (and domains) list, they were still cast as arcane spells. At least, that's the way the couatls themselves do it.

Hadrian_Emrys, the Pelorphilac class is Radiant Servant. Completely different from Rainbow Servant. Rainbow Servant is a couatl-themed class, which advances arcane spellcasting, and eventually adds the cleric list and the Good, Law, and Air domains to your class spell list (plus some other minor benefits).

Mr. T says: Stay out of car accidents kids, they're bad for your brain.

>_< So... how much does THIS class hurt in exchange for the spell type tradeoff? I'm hearing talk of 4 levels in the hole? Geomancers have that topped. That 1 level dip in Cleric is looking pretty sexy right about now.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-07, 09:30 PM
Mr. T says: Stay out of car accidents kids, they're bad for your brain.

>_< So... how much does THIS class hurt in exchange for the spell type tradeoff? I'm hearing talk of 4 levels in the hole? Geomancers have that topped. That 1 level dip in Cleric is looking pretty sexy right about now.

Radiant Servant is the pelor PrC, uber healbot. Basically, with Spontanious Domain (Healing), it makes all your cure spells auto-max and empowered. No caster-level loss, but it's divine to begin with.

Rainbow Servant. It depends on which side of the debate you're on. Text says rull progression, in other words, effectively gestalting in a non-gestalt class. Chart says you loose four caster levels throughout the progression. But basically lets you cast Divine with arcane slots.

RTGoodman
2008-05-07, 10:28 PM
So... now the question remains: how best can one exploit this? Are there any PrCs out there that grant divine spells without sacrificing arcane levels?

I was afraid that I'd broken the game for a minute, but I don't think I did. Arcane Disciple says that you "Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells," so I guess that means they're still arcane spells. Looks like at least someone at WotC was thinking ahead.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-07, 11:21 PM
Aside from the other debate about Rainbow Servant, I had understood that even though the spells came from the cleric (and domains) list, they were still cast as arcane spells. At least, that's the way the couatls themselves do it.

It says you can cast any spells on the Cleric list, and if they don't appear on your normal list they are cast as Divine. Extra double fun because you can then use that fact to advance in Contemplative as an Arcane Caster.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 12:03 AM
It says you can cast any spells on the Cleric list, and if they don't appear on your normal list they are cast as Divine.OK, then, I guess that would work. I can never keep straight how those Complete Divine classes work.

Another trick I've recently discovered for abusing Alternative Source Spell is to take it at the same time as the first level of Ur-Priest, in a build that already has some form of arcane casting, to then immediately go Mystic Theurge (which would ordinarily require two levels of Ur-Priest).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-08, 12:10 AM
OK, then, I guess that would work. I can never keep straight how those Complete Divine classes work.

Another trick I've recently discovered for abusing Alternative Source Spell is to take it at the same time as the first level of Ur-Priest, in a build that already has some form of arcane casting, to then immediately go Mystic Theurge (which would ordinarily require two levels of Ur-Priest).

Interesting, that's pretty neat, but I'd still probably prefer Ur-Priest 2, since if the campaign can deal with that, you might as well be adding DMM Persistent Spell.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 03:50 PM
...I was about to say that you could just get turning attempts from Sacred Exorcist, but then realized that Sacred Exorcist and Ur-Priest don't exactly play nice together. You could, though, pull it off with a Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest, and only lose one arcane casting level.

Alternately, of course, you could pull the same trick with regular old Cleric, if you're content with being limited to level 6 cleric spells. Most of the early-entry Mystic Theurge tricks end up as effectively Cleric 19/Wizard 11; this one can focus on either side.