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View Full Version : How to make a low level VoNV Bard more useful?



Kiyona
2008-05-08, 07:04 AM
Hello everyone!

Im playing a now lvl3 bard with sacred vow and vow of non violence. She focuses on diplomacy and bluff and to all extent tries to avoid combat. If that fail she will charm the enemy, wich almost never fails thanks to the +4 to DC from VoNV. I have worked for quite a long time with her personality and background and really enjoy playing her.

The problem is the other players... One plays a cleric of Tyr, and the other a straight fighter. I never ever get the time to use my social skills as they charge and start the killing right away. If I charm an enemy they dont let it stay alive for long, killing it as soon as they can. And while in town they are downright rude to all NPCs, lowering my chances to make contacts and such...

This is very frustrating since these are the only ways I can contribute yet.

I am thinking of multiclassing to paladin, taking devoted performer and that exalted feat that lets you do subdual damage. Later on I will take snowflake wardance (possibly the most anime thing ever ^^). Song of the heart and melodic casting I have already taken. :smallbiggrin:

I feel this build will let me contribute a bit more, as well as put a bit more weight behind my words when I ask them to stop killing helpless enemies and such. ^^

Do you think this is a good idea? This is my first time playing a bard, so Im not very adept at it yet. =) Any other suggestions how to make my little bard rock? Or maybe even suggestions as to how I can pull my weight already at these low levels?

All thoughts and suggestions would be very appreciated. ^^

Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-08, 07:09 AM
Hold Person 'em and try to do the talking. Sometimes, the headlong chargers NEED to stop, and preventing senseless killing is very Exalted in behavior.

Edit: If that fails, someone can link you to Dragonfire inspiration bards. Probably.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-08, 07:35 AM
The problem is the other players... One plays a cleric of Tyr, and the other a straight fighter. I never ever get the time to use my social skills as they charge and start the killing right away. If I charm an enemy they dont let it stay alive for long, killing it as soon as they can. And while in town they are downright rude to all NPCs, lowering my chances to make contacts and such...

This is very frustrating since these are the only ways I can contribute yet.

Vow of None Violence should have a pre req for the player... like: be able to handle being a wet blanket. As most adventurers will be in direct oposition to what you are trying to do. Not to mention the following:


Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes a –1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1 hour per your character level. For each helpless foe slain, the attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum equal to your character level. The duration of the increased penalty starts from the latest slaying. You may ask your allies to give you an oath that a helpless foe will not be slain. If the oath is sworn, an ally who later breaks the oath takes the penalty for doing so as if you were present. If you leave a helpless foe to be killed by your allies, you have broken your vow. You may ask a defeated creature to give you an oath of surrender or noninterference in exchange for its life. If the creature breaks this oath to you, you can allow your allies to deal with the creature as they see fit without breaking their oaths or your vow of nonviolence.

One thing to look forward to if you are that much closer to apostle of peace (granted it means taking vow of poverty and vow of peace), one of the few fast track casting PrCs that most people do not find to be cheesy (due to the limits by the pre reqs).

Kiyona
2008-05-08, 07:44 AM
Azerian Kelimon

Hold person is a good idea actually, for now I only have two spells per day, but in a few levels or so it will be very interesting to hold them in place while I handle the "enemy". =)

Animefunkmaster

Well, the thing is, I talked to both the players and the DM about vow of non violence and what it means to the game. All of them thought it a good and fun idea.. Had they mentioned that they would be plaing characters that really is incompatable with mine, I would have played something else.

Where can I find apostle of peace btw? What does it do? =)

Xefas
2008-05-08, 07:48 AM
Later on I will take snowflake wardance (possibly the most anime thing ever ^^).

What the heck kind of anime do you watch? :smalleek:
I don't think I've ever seen an Anime character expend a bardic music use to add their charisma modifier to their attack rolls with one-handed slashing weapons.

Anyway, on the actual topic at hand, I'd suggest just...giving it up for now. Clearly your expectations for the game and the expectations of the other players are different. They want to smash stuff and you want to talk to it, and because smashing almost always precludes talking, they're going to win out.

So, your options are either to talk to the other players, and work out some sort of deal with them so you get to contribute with your social skills OR just find some other character concept that you like and ask the DM to swap it in for your bard.

Kiyona
2008-05-08, 08:04 AM
Xefas

"You have mastered the snowflake wardance, a mystical style of fighting with slashing weapons that allows you to leap and almost seem to float haphazardly across the battlefield like a whirling, razor-edged snowflake."

I think that, together with the fact that you get fatigued after using it sounded like a super ability of any kind of anime (girl) fighter. ^^

And I have talked to them... The only response I get is "but that is how my character would act!" I have thought about giving up and getting a new character, unfortunatly the DM doesnt allow that. Not now atleast. Retraining to a beguiler or rogue (wanna be skillmonkey) or even a barbarian has occured to me. But Im not allowed to do that either.

So, my options are, eihter I adopt my character to fit better in with the group, stay a "wet blanket", or I am off roleplaying for a while. :( This is the only group in my neighborhood. At least until the DM allows a new character into the group... Apparently it doesnt fit the plot right now...



So any suggestion how to make it a more playable will be greatly appreciated. =)

Keld Denar
2008-05-08, 08:13 AM
Well, I'd suggest optimizing Inspire Courage. Take Words of Creation from BoED, since you are already an exalted character thanks to VoNV. Also, take Dragonfire Inspiration. If your friends are going to mercilessly slaughter everything you come across, the extra damage will insure a quicker and less painful dead, I guess.

Honestly, I HATE playing with exalted characters, and not even because of the RP aspect of it. I HATE that they impose poorly balanced game mechanics to them. I DMed a game with a halfling cleric of Yolanda with Community domain and Vow of Peace and Non-Violence. He was rocking a DC25+ will save on his aura of calm at like, level 3. None of the other PCs at the table could make his DC, much less the handful of gobos I sent after them. Between him flashing the aura by moving around the battlefield to affect foes multiple times and the stacking penalties to hit that the rest of the party was suffering, I asked him to remake his character without exalted feats after the first game session. Since then, I have never allowed another player at my tables take exalted feats. They are really rediculously over/under powered at different times, and not at all balanced with anything.

Xefas
2008-05-08, 08:21 AM
"You have mastered the snowflake wardance, a mystical style of fighting with slashing weapons that allows you to leap and almost seem to float haphazardly across the battlefield like a whirling, razor-edged snowflake."

I think that, together with the fact that you get fatigued after using it sounded like a super ability of any kind of anime (girl) fighter. ^^

When I read that, I think more of movies like Hero, Kung Pow, and the first three (chronologically) episodes of Star Wars. So, why couldn't it be a Live Action thing? I mean, so long as we're grouping things by art style and not genre.



And I have talked to them... The only response I get is "but that is how my character would act!"

You should have this person institutionalized. They are incapable of controlling the constructs of their own imagination and are a danger to their self and others.



So, my options are, eihter I adopt my character to fit better in with the group, stay a "wet blanket", or I am off roleplaying for a while. :( This is the only group in my neighborhood. At least until the DM allows a new character into the group... Apparently it doesnt fit the plot right now...

I don't suppose that simply telling him that a game is primarily intended to be for the fun of all involved would have any effect? Having been in a similar situation, I understand that there's not much you can do. Even a sub-optimally fun game of D&D is still more fun than most things.


So any suggestion how to make it a more playable will be greatly appreciated. =)

Take Vow of Peace. It needs VoNV as a prereq. It lets you project a constant aura out to 20 feat, so that anyone who enters, willfully or not, must make a Will save or become calm and non-violent. Plus a bunch of other benefits...

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-08, 08:31 AM
At low levels? Charm your team-mates. Say to them, "You're charmed, yes? That means you're very receptive to everything I say. I suggest that you let me deal with it and only start breaking things when I tell you."

Kiyona
2008-05-08, 08:42 AM
Xefas

About the anime-thing... You are absolutly right of course. ^^ I think I connect it with anime because I've had an anime marathon this weekend and keep connecting everything with different characters in naruto or bleach... :smallbiggrin:


You should have this person institutionalized. They are incapable of controlling the constructs of their own imagination and are a danger to their self and others.

Hehe, that one had me laugh out loud. My collegues are looking at me with worried looks...

VoP is awesome... but I think it is a bit broken. On the other hand, my fellow players are really powergaming, so why not? =)

Both the DM and players are good friends of mine, but unfortunatly they are incredibly stuibborn when it comes to these kind of things... Talking to them doesnt really have any effect.

lussmanj

Well, I am new to D&D, and this is my first bard. I thought of pacifism as a part of the character-concept before I choose VoNV. So, I really had no idea about balance and such. I can see now that it is a bit of a problem...

But is it really impossible to play D&D without killing everything?? And dont like to thinks so, but maybe thats the case...

I hope that 4e fixes it in that case. ^^

Xefas
2008-05-08, 08:52 AM
About the anime-thing... You are absolutly right of course. ^^ I think I connect it with anime because I've had an anime marathon this weekend and keep connecting everything with different characters in naruto or bleach... :smallbiggrin:

I actually just watched Full Metal Alchemist for the first time a couple days ago. I had seen the first 7 or 8 episodes and that last 2 episodes before, but never the whole thing. I can't believe it took me so long to do so, since its a really good Anime. Not my favorite, and with a little too much screen-time devoted to malformed fetuses and whatnot, but still very good.


Hehe, that one had me laugh out loud. My collegues are looking at me with worried looks...

VoP is awesome... but I think it is a bit broken. On the other hand, my fellow players are really powergaming, so why not? =)

:smallsmile:



But is it really impossible to play D&D without killing everything?? And dont like to thinks so, but maybe thats the case...

I hope that 4e fixes it in that case. ^^

Well, the problem isn't that the rules can't be used for it; just that the rules don't actively support it, so it's much harder to DM.

4th edition will, however, have defined rules for awarding experience points and progressing in a purely social environment if one chooses to do so.

Keld Denar
2008-05-08, 09:08 AM
It is NOT a requirement of D&D to kill everything in sight. It is the desire of the other players. If you really want them to stop killing stuff, take Vow of Peace, max your cha, and maybe even take Abilty Focus: Vow of Peace and Dialate Aura (Lords of Madness). You're will save DC will be so high not even the cleric can regularly make it, and they'll either have to sit there and watch you diplomacy everything, or move out of the aura which is now 40' thanks to Dialate Aura.

Warning however...this will piss off the other 2 players, your DM, and probably even Cthulu himself. Take advantage of this to mention that you aren't having as much fun because they just mow everything down. Show them how little fun it is when you completely shut them down from doing anything they want to do. Then sit them down and talk to them like mature adults, and see if you can come to a compromise. Sometimes people ARE dense, and need to be shown first hand how you feel about their gaming style. Then agree to retool your characters mechanics a bit to drop your vows if they agree to let you do your thing every once in a while as well. Also, talk to your DM about having encounters that can be better solved through non-violence than remorseless slaughter.

You don't have to have vows to play a non-violent character. Bards have a lot of non-damaging disables, from Hold Person to Glitterdust to Solid Fog to Suggestion (sit down and shut up!). In the times you do need to fight (it is D&D after all), you can buff your allies with Inspire Courage and maybe Dragonfire Inspiration, so long as you don't lift a weapon youself.

Kiyona
2008-05-08, 09:25 AM
Xefas

Off topic, oh Ive had my eyes on full metal alchemist for a while now. It seems like a great show. Now I know what to do If I will have to resort to my third choice of no RP for a while. ^^

lussmanj

He, I think I will have to do just that. :smallbiggrin: My DM actually encouraged me to knock some sense into the other charcters so they will listen to my bard. =) She is the younger sister of the three... so no one is listening to her anyways. ^^

And a compromise is all I ask from the other players. I have made it clear that she is not opposed to violence as such, as long as they dont use it on helpless people. (and in selfdefense). She just dont resort to it herself. It is "not her path".

Yes, in a few levels I will have acces to many good spells. Im really looking forward to hold person and suggestion. Lovely spells for any character I thnik. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2008-05-08, 10:09 AM
If you are willing to accept the concequences, then do just that. Vow of Peace and Vow of NonViolence makes the DC 18 before stats. Assuming an 18 cha, that's DC 22. Ability Focus makes that DC 24. Getting a +2 cha item asap makes it DC 23.

I'm sure there is more to do to max this out. Anyone else have any ideas?

Xefas
2008-05-08, 10:36 AM
If you are willing to accept the concequences, then do just that. Vow of Peace and Vow of NonViolence makes the DC 18 before stats. Assuming an 18 cha, that's DC 22. Ability Focus makes that DC 24. Getting a +2 cha item asap makes it DC 23.

I'm sure there is more to do to max this out. Anyone else have any ideas?

You don't really *need* to max it out. The party is level 3 now, so it'll be level 6 by the time she gets the Vow of Peace.

The fighter character should have somewhere between +1 and +3 to his Will save. The cleric, on the other hand, will probably have something between +8 and +10.

The fighter goes down without any optimization on your part, and the cleric will be way out of your league to mellow whether you're optimized or not.

Disabling half the problem is assuredly a good start.

Kiyona
2008-05-08, 11:19 AM
Xefas and Lussmanj

I talked to my DM and he allowed me to take VoP as my third lvl feat. ^^ This means I wont be able to get Song of the Heart until lvl 6, but I think it will work out ok. Besides he might take it away if it is to overpowered. :smallbiggrin:

Either it will balance out the game somewhat and Ill be able to contribute more. Or the other players will listen to me and compromise. :smallsmile:

If it doesnt work at all I will begin wotking on a barbarian. ^^

But I am unsure of the wording in VoP...

I think it says that if my allies kill someone I used my spells on, I will lose the feat. Does that include all spells or only the ones that render them helpless? Is fascinate considered a spell?

Keld Denar
2008-05-08, 11:50 AM
Um, there is an Alt Class Feature in one of the Ebberon sourcebooks that allows you to swap out the Inspire Competance song (crap) for the Song of the Heart feat (GREAT!). See if your DM will allow you to do that, it'll net you faster rewards, and Inspire Competance isn't really that good.

And yes, that is one of the main reasons why I don't like Exalted feats. You are basically putting your character into your DMs hands and trusting him not to make you worthless on a moments notice. Yea, if you cast a Hold Person, and then the barbarian with you drops a CDG on him, you lose the feat. Except you don't get to replace it, you just lose. Yea, it sucks, but thems the bitter fruit. Technically, this is VERY open to interpretation. You could use a Minor Image spell to momentarily distract an asailent, and if one of your allies kills that distracted foe, you lose. Its way to buggy.

Honestly, bards can be very effective combatants. They can disable foes, buff allies, and even deal insane amounts of damage with the proper tweaking. You don't need the vows to play an effective bard. I'd remove them for other things after you use them to prove a point.

Frosty
2008-05-08, 12:00 PM
If you ever want to retrain, do it as a Beguiler. They are the MOST fun charaters evah!! :smallcool:

F.L.
2008-05-08, 01:08 PM
This is the reason you should really make characters together as a group to try and establish a theme for the group and to work out compatability.

Kiyona
2008-05-09, 02:26 AM
Everybody,

Last nights session worked out great! I didnt even have to use VoP. ^^
All I needed to do was tell them I was thinking of taking it as my lvl three feat. That made them think. =P

So they backed off a bit and let me do my thing before the killing and maiming. :smallbiggrin:

Lussmanj,

Really?? Oh, I would love to get that one. Do you now in which book?
The campaign is set in faerun, but maybe I can use it if it isnt too conncected to the eberron world. Hope so. ^^

My character, through a string of strange events, have become a fey. Half-fey actually. Does anyone now what that does? DM forgot his books at home yesterday... ^^

Kizara
2008-05-09, 02:47 AM
This may be of aid to you:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73095

Particularly, check out Celtic Woman.


As for the half-fey template:

DR 5/cold iron
Dex +2
Con -2
Wis +4
Cha +2

Butterfly wings (fly at double base land speed with Good maneuverbility)
Gains Low-Light vision.

Immune to Enchantment spells & effects.
Charm Person, at will.


If Cha or Wis is 8+, can use the following abilities at least 1/day.
HD Ability
1-2 Hypnotism, 1/day; Faerie Fire –or– Glitterdust,1/day
3-4 Detect Law, 3/day, Sleep –or– Enthrall, 1/day
5-6 Protection from Law, 3/day;
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter or Suggestion, 1/day
7-8 Confusion –or– Emotion, 1/day
9-10 Eyebite –or– Lesser Geas, 1/day
11-12 Dominate Person –or– Hold Monster, 1/day
13-14 Mass Invisibility, 1/day
15-16 Geas/Quest –or– Mass Suggestion, 1/day
17-18 Insanity –or– Mass Charm, 1/day
19+ Otto’s Irresistible Dance, 1/day

LA: +2 (I feel this is overpowered for its LA, but that's the template.)

Kiyona
2008-05-09, 03:47 AM
Kizara,

Oh my god, that is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Though I havent got any wings yet... Im quite shure I would have noticed that. ^^ The loss of con is going to sting a bit, but the rest is just awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Do you know from what book it comes? Is it in MM?

The question now is... why does he give me this for free?? What terrible foes will we face that he feels I need such a boost? :smalleek:

But as I said, the others are powergaming theyre hearts out, while I am playing a 15year who has seen so very little of the world. Maybe he felt sorry for her. ^^

Gonna check out the link right away, need all the help I can get. Thanks :smallsmile:

Leon
2008-05-09, 07:32 AM
At low levels? Charm your team-mates. Say to them, "You're charmed, yes? That means you're very receptive to everything I say. I suggest that you let me deal with it and only start breaking things when I tell you."

Oh yay, manipulating party members... that wont come back to bite you.....

Keld Denar
2008-05-09, 07:57 AM
Really?? Oh, I would love to get that one. Do you now in which book?
The campaign is set in faerun, but maybe I can use it if it isnt too conncected to the eberron world. Hope so. ^^


Its an Alt Class Feature. Its not campaign specific at all. Its either in the Ebberon Campaign Sourcebook, or the Players Guide to Ebberon, whichever one contains the Song fo the Heart feat. Check the end of the bard discription in the classes section. I always get those 2 books mixed up. You should be able to take it, since it isn't campaign specific. As with everything else, ask your DM.

Kizara
2008-05-09, 02:35 PM
Kizara,

Oh my god, that is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Though I havent got any wings yet... Im quite shure I would have noticed that. ^^ The loss of con is going to sting a bit, but the rest is just awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Do you know from what book it comes? Is it in MM?

The question now is... why does he give me this for free?? What terrible foes will we face that he feels I need such a boost? :smalleek:

But as I said, the others are powergaming theyre hearts out, while I am playing a 15year who has seen so very little of the world. Maybe he felt sorry for her. ^^

Gonna check out the link right away, need all the help I can get. Thanks :smallsmile:

Your welcome, my index says its in the Fiend Folio page 89.

For the record, I feel that template should have a +3 LA.

Also, consider that your DM may be homebrewing something less powerful, as the Fiend Folio is a somewhat obscure book.

Ralfarius
2008-05-09, 03:46 PM
Personally, I think the Vow of Non-Violence and everything that comes with it should be fully cleared with everyone at the table before you start up a character. If 2-3 members out of a 4 character party want to be able to cut down their foes with little moral baggage, then that is 60-75% of the group (80% if the DM isn't into it either) that you're bogging down with an ability that causes you to force certain behaviours upon the rest of the group.

I'm not against the vow itself, but I know I'd not appreciate sitting down at a table and someone throwing down with "guess what? You can't kill those marauding bugbears 'cause I stand to lose my bonuses based on what you do."

Now, if I knew ahead of time that someone wanted to do this non-violence stuff, then I could prepare a character that could either play into it or could provide some good roleplaying opportunities with conflicting views, assuming the group was interested in a little bit of that sort of drama.

I'm glad that it sounds like things could be working out with your comrades, but I'd think in the future you should definitely consider the impact certain character choices have on the rest of the group.