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Craig1f
2008-05-08, 02:21 PM
So, I'm in a campaign where I've chosen to be a beguiler. We're currently level 3 (leveling probably next session to level 4) in a spirit world.

The beguiler is difficult to play. I've never played a stealthy character, or a character that doesn't do direct damage. So far, I've managed to use silent image to create the illusion of fire to scare a mummy into a stalemate until help arrived. The illusory fire would grow if the mummy approached, and shrink if it stepped back, but was not large enough to cause the mummy to wonder why it did not radiate heat. It kept the mummy from reaching the gate long enough for a water elemental to walk out and beat the tar out of it. That was my first illusion (yay)/

I am lacking the gift of experience, and I was wondering if someone could just give me some tips to playing beguiler with level 2 and level 1 spells, as well as some rules of thumb and tips for using illusions. All the handbooks I read focus on the finished product (level 20 characters), not really what to do when you're low level.

I plan to go Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1/Beguiler 7/Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Beguiler X. I'm a whispergnome, so I have access to Ghost Sounds as a SLA 1/day.

Draz74
2008-05-08, 02:51 PM
Like all casters who have delayed-one-level spell progression, Level 3 is the low point for Beguilers. So don't get too worried yet.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-08, 02:54 PM
So, I'm in a campaign where I've chosen to be a beguiler. We're currently level 3 (leveling probably next session to level 4) in a spirit world.

The beguiler is difficult to play. I've never played a stealthy character, or a character that doesn't do direct damage. So far, I've managed to use silent image to create the illusion of fire to scare a mummy into a stalemate until help arrived. The illusory fire would grow if the mummy approached, and shrink if it stepped back, but was not large enough to cause the mummy to wonder why it did not radiate heat. It kept the mummy from reaching the gate long enough for a water elemental to walk out and beat the tar out of it. That was my first illusion (yay)/

I am lacking the gift of experience, and I was wondering if someone could just give me some tips to playing beguiler with level 2 and level 1 spells, as well as some rules of thumb and tips for using illusions. All the handbooks I read focus on the finished product (level 20 characters), not really what to do when you're low level.

I plan to go Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1/Beguiler 7/Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Beguiler X. I'm a whispergnome, so I have access to Ghost Sounds as a SLA 1/day.

Color Spray.
Color Spray owns the hell out of the low levels. Look, a third-level NPC cleric built with the Elite Array has 15 WIS and +3 Will, or +5 on his save. With an 18 INT and Spell Focus: Illusion, your DC is 16. You're a gnome, so add +1 to that. That's better than 50% odds to just plain put him down. Warrior types are going to have Will saves of +1 or so.

You've also got Obscuring Mist for when the party gets jumped, and a variety of utility spells. And Silent Image.

The key to using Image spells is the following:
-Practice with your allies so they can recognize that it's an illusion; have a code word, even. At worst, this'll give'em +4 to save against it; at best, they'll just see right through it.
-Cut off line of sight. Illusions are transparent to you and anyone else who's recognized it as one; that means that if you put up an illusory wall of smoke, your party can shoot through it freely while it blocks your enemies' LOS.
-People need to *interact* with the image to get a Will save. If it's not directly affecting them, just what that means is open to interpretation... but it should probably take actions. Point this out if your DM is giving Will saves just for looking at it (because that nerfs the spell). Anyway, what this means is that you should be creating Images that people don't *want* to interact with! Walls of smoke with ghostly wraith-shapes flitting in and out, fogs that are a poisonous looking green or purple,

Against Mindless opponents, Silent Image becomes even better, because they can't reason, they'll just accept whatever's there.

Level 3 happens to be a clumsy level because first-level spells aren't as effective anymore, and you haven't gotten 2nd-level spells yet because you're on the sorcerer progression. Once you get Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Stay the Hand, Blinding Color Surge, etc, you start winning. Glitterdust is some seriously amazing stuff. Blinding Color Surge is good, because it potentially blinds someone for a round (two rounds, if you use a lesser rod of extend spell) *and* makes you invisible. That's strictly superior to Invisibility for in-combat use. And once you're invisible, you get your +1 DC for sneaky casting (just as you do against blinded opponents, btw).

Take Unsettling Enchantment as a feat (requires Spell Focus: Enchantment) and Distract Assailant for your first Advanced Learning. That means that as a swift action, you can use a first-level spell slot to (a) make a target flatfooted against you if they fail a save, and (b) get -2 AB/AC for a round, with *no* save.

Look up the "Conceal Spellcasting" use of Sleight of Hand in Races of Stone or the Rules Compendium. Realize that this makes the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick totally pointless. Max Sleight of Hand and use it whenever you cast.

Craig1f
2008-05-08, 03:08 PM
The key to using Image spells is the following:
-Practice with your allies so they can recognize that it's an illusion; have a code word, even. At worst, this'll give'em +4 to save against it; at best, they'll just see right through it.
-Cut off line of sight. Illusions are transparent to you and anyone else who's recognized it as one; that means that if you put up an illusory wall of smoke, your party can shoot through it freely while it blocks your enemies' LOS.
-People need to *interact* with the image to get a Will save. If it's not directly affecting them, it's open to interpretation... but it should probably take actions. Point this out if your DM is giving Will saves just for looking at it (because that nerfs the spell). Anyway, what this means is that you should be creating Images that people don't *want* to interact with! Walls of smoke with ghostly wraith-shapes flitting in and out, fogs that are a poisonous looking green or purple,


Ah, good advice. When I get Telepathy, I can just alert them easily. I have message as a SLA which can be useful on occasion as well. IC, I haven't revealed my magic to the party yet (OOC they know because I'm not a ****, but IC, I'm a scared commoner that's just really good at being sneaky. I use sleight of hand for every spell I cast so they never notice IC). But when we gain a few levels, I will reveal in character that I have magical abilities. They already sort of act like it anyway since they know OOC.



Look up the "Conceal Spellcasting" use of Sleight of Hand in Races of Stone or the Rules Compendium. Realize that this makes the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick totally pointless. Max Sleight of Hand and use it whenever you cast.

Yeah, I use that one pretty constantly. There is a conceal spellcasting skill trick as well, but it's completely useless since the game has already defined the ability. I may take false theurgy though, just to screw with enemies a little more.



Level 3 happens to be a clumsy level because first-level spells aren't as effective anymore, and you haven't gotten 2nd-level spells yet because you're on the sorcerer progression. Once you get Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Stay the Hand, Blinding Color Surge, etc, you start winning. Glitterdust is some seriously amazing stuff. Blinding Color Surge is good, because it potentially blinds someone for a round (two rounds, if you use a lesser rod of extend spell) *and* makes you invisible. That's strictly superior to Invisibility for in-combat use. And once you're invisible, you get your +1 DC for sneaky casting (just as you do against blinded opponents, btw).

It hadn't even occured to me that you could extend blinding color surge. When I hit Shadowcraft Mage level 4, that'll be sweet. Of course, I'll have much better powers by then anyway.



Take Unsettling Enchantment as a feat (requires Spell Focus: Enchantment) and Distract Assailant for your first Advanced Learning. That means that as a swift action, you can use a first-level spell slot to (a) make a target flatfooted against you if they fail a save, and (b) get -2 AB/AC for a round, with *no* save.

I have no free feats. I'm going ...
1: Shadow Weave Magic
3: Earth Sense
6: Spell Focus (Illusion)
9: Heighten Spell
12: Earth Spell
15: Energy Substitute (so I can use fire/water/air spells with shadow evocation)

Energy Substitution is a maybe. It'd be nice to use Earth Sense on things like fireball and meteor swam (if we even get to level 18). I may take Obtain Familiar instead, just for flavor. And I may take that early at level 6 or so so I can take the Rat and get a +2 to my Fort. Or get a bat which has blindsense.


As for Distract Assailant, I took Shock and Awe instead. I figure it will scale better. Distract Assailant is good at lower levels, but since the PH2 specifically says that you can't trade out Advanced Learning spells, a level 1 spell with a save just seems like it will lose usefulness.

Does distract assailant give my allies benefits, or just me? I forget.

blacksabre
2008-05-08, 03:11 PM
Use Wands. Its the best way to supplement for DD

Craig1f
2008-05-08, 03:41 PM
Use Wands. Its the best way to supplement for DD

With such a limited spell list, I'm not sure UMD is useful until I can get enough ranks to use wands reliably. It's DC 20, and I have CHA 10, so I'd need to be level 16 to be able to use a wand without rolling a UMD check.

I got so many spells per level, that I can't imagine I'd run out. My DM let me take the fault Noncombatant in return for an extra 0th, 1st, and 2nd level spell slot. Maybe a Knock wand would be useful though, i can imagine having to use it a lot.

Corlindale
2008-05-08, 03:42 PM
I've never been lucky enough to actually get to play a Beguiler, though I'm completely in love with its concept. I have played several illusionists and a bard, though.

I can see you've already discovered one of the most basic distractive illusions: Fire. Illusory walls or rings of fire are a very nice way to help with crowd control of dumber foes (who usually occur frequently at your level). Perhaps keep the fire a little way from the foes so they don't easily notice the lack of heat. But even if they do eventually find out that there is something odd about the fire it can probably provide good shock effect and distraction.

Another good choice is illusory allies. In general it is practical to create in-combat illusions that are similar to actual spells, since you can't effectively disguise the fact that you are casting just yet (depending on to what extent your GM lets you use Sleight of Hand). Summoning a "demon" or two might be just the thing to make enemies lose their courage. My bard once got the entire party safely past a large gnoll encampment with the aid of the illusion of a dragon, for example.

As mentioned you can also make use of the fact that illusions are transparent to those that have disbelieved them to create cover - just be careful not to abuse this feature too much, as there are certain uses of it that are close to being broken. Superimposing an extremely dense fog over the entire battle area, for example, creating an effectual fog cloud which doesn't affect allies. This is probably beyond the intended use of the spell.

Illusions to create confusion are another nice option. Illusory copies of some the enemy creatures suddenly turning against eachother, illusory doubles of them fleeing from the battlefield, or an illusion of a third faction joining the fray.

Otherwise, just be creative. Silent Image and its ilk are among the most flexible spells in the game, and the possibilities are literally endless.

Craig1f
2008-05-08, 03:51 PM
...Illusory copies of some the enemy creatures suddenly turning against eachother, illusory doubles of them fleeing from the battlefield, or an illusion of a third faction joining the fray....

I can Sleight of Hand against people's spot checks. But I'm hiding most of the time anyway, so it's not always a big deal. I'm going to keep Sleight of Hand maxed at least until it's +19.

I really like your idea of having "illusory enemies fleeing" in order to make the enemy lose heart. I just had the idea of having an illusory VIP run from the battlefield. Have a very wealthy looking wizard, holding something that looks important, appear to cast expeditious retreat and flee. That should cause some people to pursue him.

I'm going to have to learn to be more creative.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 05:22 PM
-Cut off line of sight. Illusions are transparent to you and anyone else who's recognized it as one; that means that if you put up an illusory wall of smoke, your party can shoot through it freely while it blocks your enemies' LOS.This may even work without your allies saving. In our world, it's impossible for something to be opaque in one direction but transparent in the other, but the D&D world has never worried too much about those pesky laws of thermodynamics. You can probably, for instance, create an illusion of a [Leomud's] Tiny Hut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tinyHut.htm). If the illusion looks like the real thing, then your party members inside can naturally see out, while the enemies outside can't see in. For bonus points, looking like a real spell makes the illusion more believable.

Overlard
2008-05-08, 05:38 PM
I have no free feats. I'm going ...
1: Shadow Weave Magic
3: Earth Sense
6: Spell Focus (Illusion)
9: Heighten Spell
12: Earth Spell
15: Energy Substitute (so I can use fire/water/air spells with shadow evocation)

Energy Substitution is a maybe. It'd be nice to use Earth Sense on things like fireball and meteor swam (if we even get to level 18). I may take Obtain Familiar instead, just for flavor. And I may take that early at level 6 or so so I can take the Rat and get a +2 to my Fort. Or get a bat which has blindsense.

I would take Dark Stalker if I were you (LoM). You'll probably be invisible a lot, and this lets have a good change against pesky things like blindsense and blindsight.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-08, 05:52 PM
I would ignore the beguiler's sneak attack DC bonus (well, it comes in handy when it happens, but don't go out of your way to plan for it). The +1 save DC bonus is not worth getting into melee range for.

At low level, you get excellent stealth skills. Maximize them, use them. At moderate to high level, you get the excellent UMD skill. Maximize it. Either way, you'll have plenty of skill points left for whatever else catches your fancy.

I would recommend against Heighten Spell. Rather than boosting a 1st level enchantment to 4th level, just cast a 4th level enchantment; you've got plenty. Instead, take Quicken. You seriously want to have Quicken at higher levels (it requires an extra feat to make it work for a spontaneous caster, but it's still worth it). In fact, I would advise against the entire earth sense tree, including energy substitution.

More practical feats include Dazzling Enchantment, Extend Spell, and Arcane Disciple (which lets you put summoning, blasting, other buffs, or even healing on your spell list). This is useful because, at higher levels, you'll increasingly meet creatures immune to mind effects. Beguilers are kind of screwed against that immunity (yes, they still have tricks up their sleeve, but anyway)

Frosty
2008-05-08, 05:58 PM
I would ignore the beguiler's sneak attack DC bonus (well, it comes in handy when it happens, but don't go out of your way to plan for it). The +1 save DC bonus is not worth getting into melee range for.

Well, you'll get it whenever you're invisible and they can't detect invisible.

Leewei
2008-05-08, 06:00 PM
Dipping into Mindbender is ideal at level 3, since it gets you 2nd level spells just as you get the Advanced Learning class ability. In turn, you can pick up black karma curse from PHB2. This baby is an incredible damage spell since it, in effect, forces an opponent to hit itself. My own Beguiler just hit 4th level, and still gets a ton of mileage from level 1 spells. Silent image is handy enough. At 4th level, silence can make the effect even more believable. Why bother with minor image if an opponent can't hear?

As an aside, I'm utterly in love with the idea of an enchantment specialist with the chain spell metamagic feat casting chained black karma curse. It'd be like something right out of Monty Python. I'd probably roleplay the verbal component by saying "Stop hitting yourselves!" (WHACK!)

Frosty
2008-05-08, 06:10 PM
And pray tell, how do you intend to qualify for Mindbender by level 3?

Leewei
2008-05-08, 07:23 PM
Oops, posted that at work with no source book access. Serves me right!

Overlard
2008-05-08, 07:56 PM
I would recommend against Heighten Spell. Rather than boosting a 1st level enchantment to 4th level, just cast a 4th level enchantment; you've got plenty. Instead, take Quicken. You seriously want to have Quicken at higher levels (it requires an extra feat to make it work for a spontaneous caster, but it's still worth it). In fact, I would advise against the entire earth sense tree, including energy substitution.
Heighten Spell is pretty much necessary to do a Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage properly, and Earth Sense is used for the same reason.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 08:14 PM
Heighten Spell is necessary for a wizard shadowcraft, but a beguiler shouldn't need it. For a wizard, its purpose is to turn any spell slot into a Signature Spell silent image, to use for the shadowcrafting, but a beguiler can already turn any spell slot into a figment, anyway.

Overlard
2008-05-08, 08:20 PM
Heighten Spell is necessary for a wizard shadowcraft, but a beguiler shouldn't need it. For a wizard, its purpose is to turn any spell slot into a Signature Spell silent image, to use for the shadowcrafting, but a beguiler can already turn any spell slot into a figment, anyway.
The image spells run out at pretty low level, Heighten is used to shore that up.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-08, 09:02 PM
The image spells run out at pretty low level, Heighten is used to shore that up.1st:Silent
2nd:Minor
3rd:Major
4th:-
5th:Persistant
6th:Permanent or Programmed(both have material component:smallannoyed:)
So they run out at 5th effectively.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 10:08 PM
Does it have to be an Image spell specifically, or will any Figment do? Because there's also Illusory Wall and Greater Mirror Image at 4th and Mislead at 6th.

For 7, 8, and 9, I don't know, but there ought to be some figments somewhere in the splatbooks that you could pick up via Advanced Learning.

Craig1f
2008-05-09, 08:54 AM
1st:Silent
2nd:Minor
3rd:Major
4th:-
5th:Persistant
6th:Permanent or Programmed(both have material component:smallannoyed:)
So they run out at 5th effectively.

Beguilers don't get Persistant, Permanent, and Programmed, unless they get them through advanced learning. I haven't decided what advanced learning I'll be getting later.

Additionally, Earth Spell allows you to replicate a level x spell with a level x shadow conjuration/evocation spell. Normally, you have to replicate a level x-1 spell with a level x shadow spell.

So, without heighten spell, in order to cast a lightning bolt or fireball, I'd have to first use advanced learning to get persistant image, and then then use a 5th level spell to cast the lightning bolt or fireball.

With heighten spell I could use a 4th level slot to cast either, by heightening either minor, silent, or major image (its irrelevant which, since the spell is converted to shadow evocation with a 40% potency)

With Earth Spell I could use a 3rd level slot to cast lightning bolt (but not fireball, because it has the fire descriptor). However, if I also got energy substitution, I could use a 3rd level spell to cast an acidball. (with 40% potency, and +2 CL because I heightened silent image 2 levels)


Does it have to be an Image spell specifically, or will any Figment do? Because there's also Illusory Wall and Greater Mirror Image at 4th and Mislead at 6th.


The class ability description states image spells, but then it specifically specifies the spells listed by Sstoopidtallkid. Beguilers only get silent, minor, and major.

Craig1f
2008-05-09, 09:50 AM
I would take Dark Stalker if I were you (LoM). You'll probably be invisible a lot, and this lets have a good change against pesky things like blindsense and blindsight.

I've considered it. I'm already so darn feat-starved though. I don't have an open feat slot until level 15, and I haven't decided if I want Obtain Familiar, Energy Substitution, or what.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 10:24 AM
Have you considered taking flaws?

Craig1f
2008-05-09, 10:51 AM
Have you considered taking flaws?

This is a very custom game. He doesn't allow flaw-for-feat combos. He let me take noncombatant (-2 to melee) in return for an extra 0th, 1st, and 2nd level spell slot. I was not able to talk him into a bonus feat. At the time, I was trying to get Obtain Familiar, which would be more "cool" than "powergaming".

Craig1f
2008-05-09, 10:57 AM
Actually, to get this thread back on track ...

What I'm really looking for isn't a build. It's more of "here's what you should think of when you make an illusion" and "here's an illusions I did once, or do commonly" or "here's what's good to do against things with a high will save"

I'm pretty left-brained. My build is solid for my character concept. I'm not very right-brained under duress. Creativity under pressure is not my strength. So I need to plan ahead a little bit to be effective with my magic and illusions.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-09, 05:40 PM
Go for stuff that is believable. Replicate spell effects, make yourself appear like something with the Alternate Form ability, or do something that would be Deus Ex Machina if it were real. Reinforcements arriving for you, the Fighter tearing through the Web, or someone grabbing the MacGuffin and running. Look at the skill tricks in CS, you get a lot of benefits from them.

Jacob Orlove
2008-05-09, 05:43 PM
Illusion magic has the distinguishing characteristic of being either the most powerful school of magic, or the least – entirely at the whims of your playgroup. Illusions can be used as distractions, threats, enticements, concealment, modes of communication, prisons, attacks, disguises, false targets, entertainments, misdirections, religious inspiration, incitements to riot, madness provokers, commercial fraud, redecoration, time wasters, limited-use ability wasters (like prepared spells, scroll spells, or use-per-day spell-like abilities), or traps (in conjunction with dangerous terrain, monsters, substances, events, or magical effects). And that's just using the 1st level spell silent image.

Here are some concrete examples:

Unintelligent undead and golems can be completely trapped by illusory walls (provided they aren't programmed to batter down every wall they see), because they are literally incapable of memory or learning. They're vulnerable to illusions in plenty of other ways too, which is good, because they tend to be immune to most of the rest of your offensive output.

Any time you're fighting near a cliff, or a pit, or any of the other dangers mentioned above, you can use an illusion to disguise it. Your enemies will think the cliff edge is over there, when it's really over here. Hilarity ensues.

Another good one is making a 10' wide corridor 5' wide, and hiding "behind" the wall. Or "inside" some trees, whatever. It's a nice low level way to make the entire party disappear, either to escape or to set up a nice ambush.