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Frosty
2008-05-08, 05:09 PM
Situation: There are 2 Brachinas (who have polymorphed themselves into identical human female twins) working their way to corrupt a church. to that end, they have both wed a high-ranking Paladin within the church (polygamy is allowed within that church) in order to slowly but surely getting him to committ more and more questionable acts. Now, in order to avoid suspicion, they cast Undetectable Alignment on themselves every day.

So the question is: When someone Detects Evil on the Brachina, will there be anything special like a "void" reading indicating that the detection had failed due to lack of reading, or will the Detect Evil just show "negative for evil" as normal? In other words, how effective is Undetectable Alignment at fooling alignment detection spells? Is there anything to worry about for the Brachinas when they cast Ubdetectable Alignment, or are they completely safe as far as Detect spells are concerned?

On the mundane side, the Paladin has a low Sense Motive, so they can Bluff and/or keep him distracted all day.

senrath
2008-05-08, 05:14 PM
Completely safe. Detect Evil would register as "not evil." If all of the Detect alignment spells were cast on them, people would get the impression that they were True Neutral.

Frosty
2008-05-08, 05:17 PM
So someone who is already True Neutral gains no benefit from Undetectable Alignment?

Hal
2008-05-08, 05:17 PM
Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos only shows you auras of that type. Thus, someone with undetectable alignment would appear just like someone of an opposing alignment for one of those other spells: They just wouldn't register.

Now, if there was a Detect Alignment spell, then they'd be in trouble. Alternatively, a clever person would try Detect Good on them as well, but that would only be in case of suspicion.

senrath
2008-05-08, 05:19 PM
So someone who is already True Neutral gains no benefit from Undetectable Alignment?

Yup. They gain nothing from Undetectable Alignment since their alignment can't be detected anyway.

Craig1f
2008-05-08, 05:19 PM
You probably want to use Misdirection if your goal is to pose as a Lawful good creature.

Frosty
2008-05-08, 05:20 PM
Well the Pleasure Devils could claim that not everyone in the Church is Good. Because...Good is rare. Good is very self-less and for the welfare of others. Most villagers are neutral.

kc0bbq
2008-05-08, 05:23 PM
You don't need divination to pick up on alignment, though. They are safe from divinations that detect alignment, as per the spell, but that's it. Common sense can still see through it, and then they have more to worry about. They have more to worry about with all the schools of magic on them and their own behavior.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 05:28 PM
Common sense can still see through it, and then they have more to worry about.That's where the paladin's low Sense Motive comes in. And presumably, the paladin is the only one who knows that the twins are connected to the questionable acts. Evil creatures aren't exactly required to kick puppies in public: Some, presumably including pleasure devils, prefer to be more subtle about it.

Frosty
2008-05-08, 05:29 PM
You don't need divination to pick up on alignment, though. They are safe from divinations that detect alignment, as per the spell, but that's it. Common sense can still see through it, and then they have more to worry about. They have more to worry about with all the schools of magic on them and their own behavior.

Super Bluff modifiers: check
Good Diplomacy bonuses: check
Low Sense Motive on Paladin: check
Extremely "distractive" qualities when needed: double check

SadisticFishing
2008-05-08, 05:30 PM
So someone who is already True Neutral gains no benefit from Undetectable Alignment?

Yes. No benefit.

Basically, alignments just aren't read.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-09, 03:01 AM
Now, if there was a Detect Alignment spell, then they'd be in trouble. Alternatively, a clever person would try Detect Good on them as well, but that would only be in case of suspicion.

There was a Detect Alignment spell, back in 2E; for reasons unknown to me, it hasn't made the migration. In fact the main reason "undetectable alignment" existed in the first place was that it was the obvious reverse of that spell; certain spells such as this one could be cast "backwards" for the opposite effect.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-09, 03:31 AM
Now, if there was a Detect Alignment spell, then they'd be in trouble. Alternatively, a clever person would try Detect Good on them as well, but that would only be in case of suspicion.

There was a Detect Alignment spell, back in 2E; for reasons unknown to me, it hasn't made the migration. In fact the main reason "undetectable alignment" existed in the first place was that it was the obvious reverse of that spell; certain spells such as this one could be cast "backwards" for the opposite effect.

Khanderas
2008-05-09, 03:37 AM
Super Bluff modifiers: check
Good Diplomacy bonuses: check
Low Sense Motive on Paladin: check
Extremely "distractive" qualities when needed: double check
I like the "double check". Innuendo ! Intentional or not :smallsmile:

As for the original question.
(Paladin) I cast Detect Evil.
(DM) They are not evil.
Results the same if they are Good, Neutral, or protected.

Avor
2008-05-09, 07:35 AM
What kind of Palidin doens't max out his sense motive?

Every Cleric and Palidin I've seen max it out, just so things like this don't happen. Most also max out diplomacy also.

Hell, even my half-orc samurai did!

Anyways, lay a trap for the skanky devils. Set up an anti magic field in the garden. While they are walking, whispering sweet lies into his ear, BAM, the polymorph is suddeny gone, and they appear as what they are. No detect evil needed then!

Nebo_
2008-05-09, 08:25 AM
What kind of Palidin doens't max out his sense motive?

One who doesn't have many skill points. Like, all of them.


Every Cleric and Palidin I've seen max it out, just so things like this don't happen. Most also max out diplomacy also.

Clerics don't have Sense motive as a class skill, that's a terrible waste of skill points.



Anyways, lay a trap for the skanky devils. Set up an anti magic field in the garden. While they are walking, whispering sweet lies into his ear, BAM, the polymorph is suddeny gone, and they appear as what they are. No detect evil needed then!

You completely missed the point. And the rules, apparently. First, how would the paladin know to set up the AMF? Second, AMF is an emanation, centered on a caster, so you can't just have one sitting there. Lastly, Paladins can't cast AMF.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-09, 09:55 AM
You know, this situation is why some paladins learn to Smite first and ask questions later. Because detection spells can be fooled, Smite Evil never can. :smallwink:

Dannoth
2008-05-09, 09:55 AM
Detecting alignment - The Guide

1st important note is that most detects read: Detect (Good/Evil). It does not tell you exactly what someones alignment is ... it simply states it is or is not >Whatever alignment you tried to detect<

ex:

Detect Evil - If the Creature is Evil it will *ping evil*. If it is Neutral or good it will *ping not evil*

Undetectable Alignment means that no matter what it will always *ping not (Fill in detection type used here)*

Keep in mind ... that the paladin will eventually lose Paladin status if he does something truly evil ... even if he was too dumb to notice.

Craig1f
2008-05-09, 10:06 AM
Detecting alignment - The Guide

1st important note is that most detects read: Detect (Good/Evil). It does not tell you exactly what someones alignment is ... it simply states it is or is not >Whatever alignment you tried to detect<


While it's true for an important person to understand that, within the context of the game, it ends up being exactly the same as being True Neutral, since there is no "detect neutral" spell.



Keep in mind ... that the paladin will eventually lose Paladin status if he does something truly evil ... even if he was too dumb to notice.

Not necessarily true. That depends on the DM. Most DMs will make an exception if the Paladin is tricked. Some DMs will excuse plain ignorance. Some DMs will give IC warnings to the Paladin when they start to consider performing an evil act, which lets them know that they're on thin ice.

But really, it's subjective. It depends on the DM.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 10:19 AM
Isn't there an item that can tell a Paladin whether it's a Good Idea to perform an act or not?

And yeah, Paladins have 2 + int per level. I'd wager most paladins only have 3 points to spend. Let's see...Ride...diplomacy maybe...and umm...knowledge religion? So many skills...so little points.


You know, this situation is why some paladins learn to Smite first and ask questions later. Because detection spells can be fooled, Smite Evil never can.

:smalleek: Do your paladins get in the habit of smiting everyone they meet? I mean, do you expect this paladin to just smite the two (exquisitely beautiful) identical twins that have pledged to serve him in marriage (and vice versa) when they don't ping evil?


I like the "double check". Innuendo ! Intentional or not
Of the innuendo was very intentional, although I just relaized right now that there's more levels of innuendo than I intended when I first wrote it. So many ways to read that sentence...:smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2008-05-09, 10:25 AM
:smalleek: Do your paladins get in the habit of smiting everyone they meet?

No, but I once played a cleric that was in the habit of turning random people to verify whether they were undead. While sort of strange, this worked out because the campaign had undead masquerading as living people, and unlike smiting, turn undead doesn't do anything to living people.

Xefas
2008-05-09, 10:33 AM
I mean, do you expect this paladin to just smite the two (exquisitely beautiful) identical twins that have pledged to serve him in marriage (and vice versa) when they don't ping evil?

He could use Smite Evil with a bum-pinching or something. If they're good, they wouldn't even notice (y'know, aside from the pinching part). If they're just regular evil commoners, they'd be dead.

But, if they happen to be high level evil monsters polymorphed into something! Oh boy!

<related anecdote>
At one point during my last campaign, the PCs had just visited a hot spring. As they were getting dressed, the rogue Sneak Attacked the wizard with a wet, rolled up towel. The sting of the towel didn't do any damage, but he still took 5d6+9 nonlethal sneak attack damage, sending him into unconsciousness.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 10:41 AM
Xefas, that wizard should have been. SA cannot be made subdual, except iwth a few choice weapons.

See, this is why casters keep you well looted and fed. :smallbiggrin:

Now, as for why you would...If the paladin is battleworn and high level, it'd be standard procedure. Get a merciful weapon, smite with that. Letting yourself be smote is a sign of trust, so why not?

Really, it's a shame people mostly play high level characters like low levelers. A high level character should, by complete IC experience, do a wide variety of tests and checks on regular basis.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-09, 10:46 AM
:smalleek: Do your paladins get in the habit of smiting everyone they meet? I mean, do you expect this paladin to just smite the two (exquisitely beautiful) identical twins that have pledged to serve him in marriage (and vice versa) when they don't ping evil?

A wise old saying: "If a thing seems too good to be true, it probably is." :smallwink:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 10:51 AM
Corollary: "Unless you're in the heroic islands in Elysium. If you are, start partying, 'cause you finally made it."

Craig1f
2008-05-09, 10:53 AM
:smalleek: Do your paladins get in the habit of smiting everyone they meet? I mean, do you expect this paladin to just smite the two (exquisitely beautiful) identical twins that have pledged to serve him in marriage (and vice versa) when they don't ping evil?

Maybe he's just really rough in bed. I would argue it's not uncommon to cause a little nonlethal damage in the sack.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 10:54 AM
A wise old saying: "If a thing seems too good to be true, it probably is." :smallwink:

Again, he was waaaay too distracted :p It was kinda his fault for dumping both Sense Motive and Wisdom both (traded spells for Bonus Feats prolly).

Azerian, this particular paladin is just very...how shall I put this generously...idealistic and naive. He truly wants to see the good in everyone, and his negative Sense Motive modifiers don't help. the church never put him in situations where there are moral gray areas really, knowing that those aren't his strong suit, so he kind of grew up sheltered and without the healthy dose of suspicions that other level 11 characters might have. He gained levels by killing lots things that were *clearly* evil.

Unfortuntely for the Church, the Church never expected devils to attack a strategically un-important location, nor did the Church know about Pleasure Devils (they are relatively new in this setting).


But, if they happen to be high level evil monsters polymorphed into something! Oh boy!


Query: ICly, does a Paladin KNOW if a smite fails or succeeds?

Craig1f
2008-05-09, 11:01 AM
Query: ICly, does a Paladin KNOW if a smite fails or succeeds?

I believe a Paladin can tell if a smite fails or succeeds, because they can see that extra damage, other than the normal damage of the weapon or attack they're using, is dealt. I'd argue that the paladin would need to see the wounding occur. So, for example, if they smite evil in the dark, or against an invisible target, they might not know.

That's my interpretation. But again, I think this is a Rule-zero thing. I don't believe the RAW covers it.

Chronos
2008-05-09, 11:05 AM
Xefas, that wizard should have been. SA cannot be made subdual, except iwth a few choice weapons.Specifically, those weapons which normally do subdual damage with no penalty. Like, say, a rolled-up towel.


Query: ICly, does a Paladin KNOW if a smite fails or succeeds?Not directly, but there are usually pretty good indications, like whether the target suddenly goes from full health to significantly injured.


Maybe he's just really rough in bed. I would argue it's not uncommon to cause a little nonlethal damage in the sack.The proper term is "bumping uglies".

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-09, 11:10 AM
One who doesn't have many skill points. Like, all of them.
Hey. Was that a "paladins are dumb" crack? :smallannoyed:

:smalltongue:

Xefas
2008-05-09, 11:11 AM
Query: ICly, does a Paladin KNOW if a smite fails or succeeds?

I guess, by RAW, no. Unless there is some special rule about Supernatural abilities.

I've always played it up like Oots, though, where if the creature is evil, the paladin's weapon bursts into flames of a color of the paladin's choosing.

I would imagine, even with that extra bit of fluff taken out, the paladin would still feel a surge of divine energy or some such.

I suppose this is similar to the old question about whether someone who casts Charm knows whether the other person made their save or not.

EDIT: Also, what Chronos said.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 11:21 AM
I guess, by RAW, no. Unless there is some special rule about Supernatural abilities.

I've always played it up like Oots, though, where if the creature is evil, the paladin's weapon bursts into flames of a color of the paladin's choosing.

I would imagine, even with that extra bit of fluff taken out, the paladin would still feel a surge of divine energy or some such.

I suppose this is similar to the old question about whether someone who casts Charm knows whether the other person made their save or not.

EDIT: Also, what Chronos said.

According to the PHB, you always know whether or not an opponent made his save unless it's an area spell like fireball. There is a specific feat you can take to make bluff checks to fool the caster that you have indeed been Charmed when in truth you made the save.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 11:23 AM
way to level 40 or something. He rolled ridiculously good stats, to the point everyone joked we were the Dark Tower group and I was Roland.

Well, thing is, the guy started almost like a little boy would start: Confident that the world was a nice place, ready to trust anyone, and the like.

Of course, the world made sure to change that. He was still a fairly optimistic guy, but falling for every trick in the book meant he became naturally genre savvy. He carried an Ankh of Infinite bullets, had a ring of sustenance or two ready, and even had some science tricks since the world was steampunkish. For example, him and another party member were trapped by the BBEG and all their equips were taken away, and then they were thrown inside a room which filled with water. The Dm expected the party to race against the clock to rescue us, but they didn't make. Just as the DM prepared to get some diamonds for us, however, he checked how we were doing...

And discovered that we were very much alive and okay. See, if you read Jules Verne's from the Earth to the Moon, at one point they talk about some kind of crystal which absorbs carbon dioxide. My character had a bagful of those, and he had stuffed the bag, which contained some other tricks, in his throat a la Harry Houdini. So, when the room was flooded, he briefly explained the crystals to the other character, and forced a quite-a-few-minutes-long kiss, stuffing and taking crystals out of his mouth every twenty or thirty seconds. So, when the other characters opened the room, our two characters were very much okay, thanks to him being prepared for anything.

Since then, nobody mentions that incident IC, but everyone still carries those crystals, just in case.

PS: And for the record, this same group also carries rats, to put in naughty places if they meet a maiden in a dungeon with enough cleavage to make Mai Shiranui blush. Works well for detecting succubi.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 11:29 AM
I fail to understand how throwing a rat into someone's cleavage helps detect succubi.

Avor
2008-05-09, 11:51 AM
One who doesn't have many skill points. Like, all of them.

When you are wereing full-plate, ranks in swim realy don't have much of an effect anyways.


Clerics don't have Sense motive as a class skill, that's a terrible waste of skill points.

I thought they did, but I know they have diplomacy.


You completely missed the point. And the rules, apparently. First, how would the paladin know to set up the AMF? Second, AMF is an emanation, centered on a caster, so you can't just have one sitting there. Lastly, Paladins can't cast AMF.

I was thinking that the party wizzard would be smart or paranoid enough to try it, not the Palidin himself, sorry if it sounded like that.

SCPRedMage
2008-05-09, 11:53 AM
Detect Evil - If the Creature is Evil it will *ping evil*. If it is Neutral or good it will *ping not evil*
More accurately, it'll just not *ping*. Detect Evil/Good/Whatever only gives a reading off of people who fit the alignment you're looking for; otherwise, you just don't get anything. For example, a blind and deaf Paladin who activated Detect Evil would become aware of the presence of the evil people in the area, but remain unaware of the good/neutral people.

Chronos
2008-05-09, 12:04 PM
I fail to understand how throwing a rat into someone's cleavage helps detect succubi.Presumably, snuggling up into someone's cleavage counts as an "act of passion", which would trigger the succubus's level drain, which would instantly kill the rat. If the rat dies instantly (and very happily), the suspicious maiden is a succubus. If the rat only dies after the maiden screams and thows him against the stone wall, the suspicious maiden is only an erinyes.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 12:13 PM
I fail to understand how throwing a rat into someone's cleavage helps detect succubi.

A normal maide will simply be very miffed and jump at your throat. A Succubus, being a creature of violence, and with short temper, will do so while revealing wings and sprouting a tail.

Who says cartoon classics don't work on D&D?

PS: Thanks for the idea, Chronos. Now we have a TWO fold method of detecting succubi.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-09, 12:19 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/pawnoffate/smite.jpg

Frosty
2008-05-09, 12:20 PM
Presumably, snuggling up into someone's cleavage counts as an "act of passion", which would trigger the succubus's level drain, which would instantly kill the rat. If the rat dies instantly (and very happily), the suspicious maiden is a succubus. If the rat only dies after the maiden screams and thows him against the stone wall, the suspicious maiden is only an erinyes.

Uhh no. Level drain must be conferred by a kiss. Being smothered in cleavage is not a kiss. Speaking of which, does the MM specificy that the kiss must be on the mouth in order to level drain?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 12:22 PM
Since we're dealing with succubi here, I suggest we do not delve any further on the issue.

At least my method still works.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 12:24 PM
You know, I've always pictured that Succubi, or at least Lilitu, are capable of being very patient, since they use intrigue, seduction, and other non-direct methods.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 12:32 PM
Maybe, but they're still Tanar'ri, the vicious, violent hooligans, not the baatezu who spend centuries on a plan. Tanar'ri are "gut feeling 'n instincts" people, even with their cleverness factored in.

Xefas
2008-05-09, 12:35 PM
You know, I've always pictured that Succubi, or at least Lilitu, are capable of being very patient, since they use intrigue, seduction, and other non-direct methods.

Could be why 4th edition stuck them in with the Devils. They seem a lot more calm, collected, and subtle than most Demons. 'course, Grazzt does too, but maybe he spouts gibberish and jumps off bridges in his spare time to balance out his alignment back towards Chaos so the other Demons don't kick him out.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-09, 12:44 PM
Actually, the chart is:

Detect Evil.

Detect Evil? Yes/No.

Undetectable Alignment gives it no. There's no "THIS PERSON HAS THEIR ALIGNMENT UNDETECTABLE!!" because not only would that make the spell useless, Detect Evil doesn't mention it AT ALL. It just Detects Evil (or not, in this case).

SadisticFishing
2008-05-09, 12:45 PM
Could be why 4th edition stuck them in with the Devils. They seem a lot more calm, collected, and subtle than most Demons. 'course, Grazzt does too, but maybe he spouts gibberish and jumps off bridges in his spare time to balance out his alignment back towards Chaos so the other Demons don't kick him out.

Actually, he can be calm and collected while being chaotic - he just doesn't keep his word and has no respect for the law. Not losing your temper and killing things for no reason isn't inherently Lawful. Down with not using double negatives!

Frosty
2008-05-09, 12:48 PM
Maybe, but they're still Tanar'ri, the vicious, violent hooligans, not the baatezu who spend centuries on a plan. Tanar'ri are "gut feeling 'n instincts" people, even with their cleverness factored in.

So the rats thing would not work against a Brachina with uber-cleavage?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-09, 12:51 PM
Actually, the chart is:

Detect Evil.

Detect Evil? Yes/No.

Undetectable Alignment gives it no. There's no "THIS PERSON HAS THEIR ALIGNMENT UNDETECTABLE!!" because not only would that make the spell useless, Detect Evil doesn't mention it AT ALL. It just Detects Evil (or not, in this case).

I know... I was just trying to be funny...

Xefas
2008-05-09, 12:53 PM
Actually, he can be calm and collected while being chaotic - he just doesn't keep his word and has no respect for the law. Not losing your temper and killing things for no reason isn't inherently Lawful. Down with not using double negatives!

I know; I was being sarcastic (if the 'gibbering and jumping off bridges' wasn't obvious).

I even made this motivational poster a couple days ago on the very subject:

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg191/DeathNoteForKids/ChaoticEvil1.jpg

hamishspence
2008-05-09, 01:11 PM
Brachina aren't succubi: they are more powerful versions of erinyes devils (they get some of the powers the erinyes LOST in the transition from 3rd to 3.5 ed)

So, think schemers, manipulators, but more on lawful side, not chaotic.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 01:25 PM
Brachina aren't succubi: they are more powerful versions of erinyes devils (they get some of the powers the erinyes LOST in the transition from 3rd to 3.5 ed)

So, think schemers, manipulators, but more on lawful side, not chaotic.

Exactly. they are Lawful. Hence they can won't go all "WINGS AND CLAWS NAO!" when someone throws a rat at them. They have self-control.

senrath
2008-05-09, 02:00 PM
Isn't there an item that can tell a Paladin whether it's a Good Idea to perform an act or not?


Phylactery of Faithfulness. It tells anyone who wears it whether or not an action would be detrimental to their alignment. Only costs 1,000 gp.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 02:04 PM
Phylactery of Faithfulness. It tells anyone who wears it whether or not an action would be detrimental to their alignment. Only costs 1,000 gp.

You just gave me a great idea. The Brachinas can give the Paladin a tampered version that item that doesn't work as intended. It'd give the ok sign even for questionable acts.

Eurus
2008-05-09, 02:05 PM
Isn't there an item that can tell a Paladin whether it's a Good Idea to perform an act or not?

Phylactery of Faithfulness? Not necessarily alignment-based, but tells the wearer whether doing something might endanger their faith.

EDIT: Oops, too late. Serves me right for reading too many threads at once. XD

Frosty
2008-05-09, 02:17 PM
It would be funny.

Brachina 1: Honey, my sister and I are going to have a mass orgy with those other men and also with each other.
Paladin: But...are you sure that's a good idea?
Brachina 2 (who is wearing the phylatery): Of course it is. See, the phylatery isn't giving off any warning signs that it'd endanger my faith.

*Paladin fails Sense Motive horribly* : Ok, have fun! I'm off to cleanse the valley yonder of evil!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 02:57 PM
Y'know, I THINK the trick would still work on Brachinae, though it would be a sort of tossup. They could either jump you for it, or they could plot swift and terrible revenge.

Regardless of that, we DID have a way of dealing with baatezu. We had the party bard who maxed all three mental stats write a document full of legalese that just meant that you had to show your true colours to rescuers, then enchanted each word with undetectable Geases. The ONE time we met a brachinas, we had her sent off to Elysium to serve as the maid of a dead paladin who had lent us a hand against a hellfire engine. The face the DM had was incredibly lulz inducing.

Chronos
2008-05-09, 03:47 PM
Uhh no. Level drain must be conferred by a kiss. Being smothered in cleavage is not a kiss. Speaking of which, does the MM specificy that the kiss must be on the mouth in order to level drain?Are you working from the book, or from the SRD? The 3.0 Monster Manual says that the level drain is conferred by any act of passion, including a kiss, and then goes on to say that a succubus can kiss an involuntary opponent with a grapple check. The 3.5 SRD only mentions the kisses, but I think that's just a case of the SRD omitting some of the flavor text from the books. Does anyone have the hardcopy 3.5 Monster Manual handy?


Brachina 2 (who is wearing the phylatery): Of course it is. See, the phylatery isn't giving off any warning signs that it'd endanger my faith.That, I must say, is hilarious.

Kizara
2008-05-09, 04:03 PM
Hey. Was that a "paladins are dumb" crack? :smallannoyed:

:smalltongue:

It's the honest truth that Int is one of the few dumpable stats, even if it would be great to have those skill points.

I houserule to give pallys 4+Int skills for precisely this reason.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 04:14 PM
That, I must say, is hilarious.

*bows* Thank you, thank you. I am trying to create memorable and funny situations for my players.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 04:31 PM
Then, you could try having them meet n00b and genre savvy adventurer parties. The first ones would be something like "I cast magic missile at the darkness!", the second party would have rats, legalese, and batman wizards.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 04:36 PM
Then, you could try having them meet n00b and genre savvy adventurer parties. The first ones would be something like "I cast magic missile at the darkness!", the second party would have rats, legalese, and batman wizards.

Are those genre savvy?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 04:51 PM
I believe Legalese is RL's genre savvy language, and Batman wizards...well...

Batman Wizzie: Rope trick! Now, I can rest without any outside interference! My biggest weakness is negated!
Stereotypical villain: Dangit! He got away! Now, I shall monologue about my evilness and kill some minions! *Starts monologuing*.

Devils_Advocate
2008-05-09, 10:58 PM
I know... I was just trying to be funny...
Stop spreading misconceptions! (http://www.piratejesus.com/nerdcore/016.html)