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Thurbane
2008-05-08, 07:27 PM
Hi all,

I was wondering if I have the stats right for running a Worg as a PC:

STR +6
DEX +4
CON +4
INT -4
WIS +4
CHA +0

4 racial HD

Racial skills (?)

Favored class (?)

...any tips appreciated.

- T

Iku Rex
2008-05-08, 07:41 PM
That's right.

The skills listed in the MM entry are class skills for its magical beast HD.
It has no favored class other than its racial HD.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-08, 07:43 PM
Though anything involving spellcasting or weapons will not be doable. See, no fine manipulators or vocal chords.

Maybe an Anthropomorphic Worg, because the normal one doesn't work.

Iku Rex
2008-05-08, 07:48 PM
Worgs can speak.

senrath
2008-05-08, 07:50 PM
Worgs can speak.

Yup, but the no manipulators still holds true.

Smiley_
2008-05-08, 07:51 PM
You can take still-spell and deal with the problem of not being able to cast spells with somatic components.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-08, 07:56 PM
Yeah, but worgs are bards, and that requires singing. 'Cause seriously, what Worg wouldn't want to pound his enemies into mush while, in the background, you can hear....


BARK AT THE MOON! AWOOOOOOO!

Chronos
2008-05-08, 08:17 PM
The racial HD (and LA) are a pretty bad deal for a caster, anyway. Much better for a warrior-type, since magical beast HD give full BAB, and their physical stat mods are pretty nice.

Meat Shield
2008-05-08, 08:18 PM
Wasn't there a bunch of guys on here that made an actual PbP party out of nothing but wargs about a year ago? Still see one of the avatars now and then...

EDIT: Wasn't Mephiboseth one of them? Search is having issues for me right now with time-outs...

AKA_Bait
2008-05-08, 08:32 PM
I'm pretty sure the stats are right and... that's a pretty darn cool idea. Mind if I steal it?

::wanders over to the PbP forum::

Fhaolan
2008-05-08, 08:43 PM
*laugh* Yep. About a year ago, if not more.

Here's the links to those old threads:

The original challenge to build a viable worg character:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19544&highlight=worg+challenge

The OOC thread for our attempt at doing a PbP game on this forum:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2410&highlight=worg+challenge

The IC thread for our attempt at doing a PbP game on this forum:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15644&highlight=worg+challenge

Here's a detailed write up I did for Fax Celestis on tracing wolves and worgs through D&D editions:
http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Wolves_in_D%26D

And here's my breakdown of worg progression, for 3.5. In it, I discovered that the MM version is actually missing a few skill points:
http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Base_Worg

Meat Shield
2008-05-08, 09:13 PM
There it is! I knew one of you guys would show up and let us know where it was. I though one year may have been conservative. Whole bunch of old timers in that effort.

Thurbane
2008-05-08, 09:15 PM
Nice, thanks for the info.

I was thinking of maybe a cleric - there was a feat in Savage Species that allowed non-humanoids to cast spells - Surrogate Spellcasting?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-08, 10:04 PM
I thought by RAW you could spellcast in your native form without error. The explanation was "You grew up with the body, so the difficulties with Somatic and Verbal components that should appear don't, you substitute barking and tail wags for the more 'traditional' gestures of power." I think it was to prevent Wizards from Polymorphing into dragons and casting spells, without having to give every dragon Still Spell.

LibraryOgre
2008-05-08, 10:50 PM
I thought by RAW you could spellcast in your native form without error. The explanation was "You grew up with the body, so the difficulties with Somatic and Verbal components that should appear don't, you substitute barking and tail wags for the more 'traditional' gestures of power." I think it was to prevent Wizards from Polymorphing into dragons and casting spells, without having to give every dragon Still Spell.

I would probably rule that way for divine spells and heritage-based spontaneous arcane casters, but not learning-based arcane casters.

The_Snark
2008-05-08, 11:18 PM
I would probably rule that way for divine spells and heritage-based spontaneous arcane casters, but not learning-based arcane casters.

Unless they have their own traditions. Aboleths, for example, pretty clearly have an established wizardry tradition, since there's a sample aboleth wizard in the Monster Manual. They would presumably have their own somatic gestures for spells.

monty
2008-05-08, 11:37 PM
Now I can't stop imagining a Warg bard singing "Werewolves of London."

LibraryOgre
2008-05-09, 12:14 AM
Unless they have their own traditions. Aboleths, for example, pretty clearly have an established wizardry tradition, since there's a sample aboleth wizard in the Monster Manual. They would presumably have their own somatic gestures for spells.

True; there would be some with their own established spellcasting traditions, independent of humanoid physiology.

Oh, and monty? That was a perfect reference for this thread.

Fhaolan
2008-05-09, 12:53 AM
To summarize the previous threads:

There aren't any RAW rules for dealing with PCs that don't naturally have hands or other fine manipulative members. This causes some strange problems.

1) No ability to use or make equipment without magical/psionic assistance.
2) No written language, or the ability to write any language at all. Which means no spellbooks.
3) Somantic components, if possible, do not match humanoid ones.
4) Handling of material components and/or divine foci becomes problematic.

The last three means spellcasters have serious drawbacks. With no spellbooks, wizards are highly improbable. Eschew Materials becomes an absolute necessity. Somantic components might be handwaved by the GM, as it is unlikely that any spontaneous caster wouldn't learn somantic components appropriate to his/her bodytype. Same for divine spells, as what kind of cruel god would grant spells that are uncastable by the recipient? Otherwise, still spell or surrogate spellcasting will be necessary. Surrogate spellcasting, while it sounds like it would be good, was never updated to 3.5, and can be read to only apply to a character shapeshifted into a form not their own.

The first item means that the worg will need assistance of some kind, or magic/psionics, in order to use armor or other items. Buckling belts, straps, putting on items, etc. are really not possible without assistance. Melee characters, who are highly dependant on magical weapons and the like, become very difficult at higher levels. Specialty magic items are possible that will counteract some of this problem. Self-buckling armor, amulets of mage hand, floating shields, etc. It's really the limitation on weapons that hurts. Magic items that improve natural attacks are few and far between, and unfortunately tend to use the same body slots even if the effects stacked normally. Monk's belt, items of magic fang, etc.

Vow of Poverty was mentioned, but never really followed up on in the various discussions.

The RAW Worg build in the MM is missing two skill points for some reason, and might be missing the 4HD +1 adjustment to one ability depending on how you read the rules.

My particular build, Raga, starts out as Barbarian, because I thought it thematically appropriate, multi-classes as Rogue specifically for the stealth and sneak attack bonus, and ending in Horizon Walker, again because it sounded appropriate. Unfortunately the PbP didn't last very long as it was a surprisingly large and very geographically spread out group trying to pull this off, and it was simply not possible to maintain consistent posting rates.

Job
2008-05-09, 01:53 AM
Interesting, I ran an awakened wolf as a PC not too long ago and had a fun, if sometimes frustrating experience.

It might be relevant to note some useful items for characters of this type.

One is slippers of spider climbing, good for getting up walls the DM would normal not allow you to climb without hands, also fun for sneaking around. Alternatively if your worg has a power point reserve the ‘Up the Walls’ psychic feat. A move action goes a long ways for something as fast as a worg.

Another handy item is a ‘tattoo of mage hand’ (basically a slot-less Hand of the Mage item boosting its cost to 1800g), or a ‘tattoo of open/close’. With either item you greatly increase your ability to interact with a biped’s world. Please note that my DM was, very, generous with my use of my mage hand tattoo and allowed me to use the spell for some fine manipulation tasks albeit at a -4 penalty, reasoning comparative mastery of the spell having to use it so much.

Hope this is helpful to the discourse, good luck with your game.

Khanderas
2008-05-09, 02:05 AM
Yup, but the no manipulators still holds true.
If Nagas (the kind that has a head + snake body) can cast so can Worgs :)
Will take some extra work though, and is not something they are really built for, but I love the RP angle of it.

Manipulations will be hard (not only for spellcasting), a simple doorknob can be an obstacle. Item slots as well (Belt could work both as a belt and as a collar, bracers could be refitted, but then things get rough.
Nothing that can't be overcome, but something to consider.


EDIT:
Considering all Worgs are intelligent and often ally themselves with humanoid tribes etc, it would not be too far fetched there would be (limited) access to magical equipment tailored to Worgs. Though those would be tailored more to the physical aspects rather then the mental (Items to increase running speed and endurance, magic fang, jump, expidous retreat and so on).
A focus such as a holy symbol is farily easy to handle though, have it glued to his forehead harnessed to his head.

toddex
2008-05-09, 02:14 AM
Lmao I just had an awesome thought. A worg druid who with some DM talk wildshapes into a human or other humanoid race.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-09, 06:20 AM
Though anything involving spellcasting or weapons will not be doable. See, no fine manipulators or vocal chords.


The Surrogate Spellcasting feat from Savage Species allows you to substitute both somatic and somatic components for something your form can do.

Drawing material components and focuses might still be a bit of a problem without additional help.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-09, 06:48 AM
The Surrogate Spellcasting feat from Savage Species allows you to substitute both somatic and somatic components for something your form can do.

Drawing material components and focuses might still be a bit of a problem without additional help.

Well, that's what a hand of the mage, eschew materials, and wearing a holy symbol around your neck is for. :-)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-09, 07:18 AM
Well, that's what a hand of the mage, eschew materials, and wearing a holy symbol around your neck is for. :-)

True, but two feats and 900 gp for a Hand of Glory down the road and you are still a hairy dog wearing a fanny pack. :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-09, 08:37 AM
The Surrogate Spellcasting feat from Savage Species allows you to substitute both somatic and somatic components for something your form can do.

Drawing material components and focuses might still be a bit of a problem without additional help.Why are we looking at obscure splatbooks? Natural Spell allows a Druid to cast while shaped like a Worg, I don't see why it would be unbalancing to allow a Worg to cast while shaped like a Worg with that feat.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-09, 09:11 AM
Why are we looking at obscure splatbooks? Natural Spell allows a Druid to cast while shaped like a Worg, I don't see why it would be unbalancing to allow a Worg to cast while shaped like a Worg with that feat.

I think that our definitions of "obscure" might be quite different. :smallamused:

In any case, my post did not address balance at all it only tried to give a RAW solution that could apply generally to creatures with a shape different from "humanoids".
(I think my second post in this thread could give some indication about my balance concerns :smalltongue:)

There are good reasons for not extending the ways Natural Spell can be used, but not much reason not to allow worgs or similar to cast spells under the right conditions.

dman11235
2008-05-09, 01:51 PM
Ha! Right now I'm actually playing (well, going to play, the campaign hasn't started yet) Super Wolf, an awakened wolf with both wolf totems (CChamp and UA)

Here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=52065) the sheet. The differences between this character and a worg is that 1) you have a +1 LA, 2) you aren't gestalt, and 3) you have magical beast HD. The goal with Super Wolf is to be a tripper. A really good skirmishing tripper, using the shifter levels (see homebrews, a class I made, it's similar to the shapeshift druid, but without spells) to grow big and strong, and the other path to fuel the barbarian levels (2 of them), PrCs such as Warshaper, and scout/ranger.

Mephibosheth
2008-05-09, 02:08 PM
I was a part of the same effort as Fhaolan. It was a very interesting challenge to come up with builds that were viable for a Worg's unconventional frame. My build, Bheri, was a Worg Scout. He relied on his Hand of the Mage for trap disarming and lockpicking. There's also an item in Savage Species called an Amulet of Natural Attacks or something along those lines that allows you to apply weapon enhancements (+1, flaming, etc.) to a natural attack. Finally, I seem to remember either finding or house-ruling a "self-buckling" armor enhancement to facilitate armor use.

While I haven't played the character since that original pbp campaign, it seemed like a Worg Scout would actually be moderately effective. A Worg who hits with a bite attack gets a free trip attempt, meaning that a Worg Scout with Improved Trip can get two attacks after moving enough to qualify for skirmish damage. You have to pump your Int in order to do it, but it's a fun build and a Worg's racial bonuses to Str and Dex make up not prioritizing them as much as you normally would.

In other news, I really wish that game hadn't fizzled. That was a really fun party. Eh, Fhaolan?

Mephibosheth

Fhaolan
2008-05-09, 04:26 PM
In other news, I really wish that game hadn't fizzled. That was a really fun party. Eh, Fhaolan?

Yeah, I was really enjoying myself with that one. It's unfortunate, but not every game works out.

Triaxx
2008-05-09, 07:16 PM
The upside, is that as much fun as it was, you can always restart it or at least try. I know I'd be interested.

dman11235
2008-05-09, 07:29 PM
I just realized something Meph: a wolf (worg) crusader/warblade/swordsage with Improved Trip will get a free attack after executing a maneuver with their bite attack if they have Imp Trip. That is some serious hurt.

Also, a ToB class wolf (worg) doesn't suffer from the multiple attack problem as much. Particularly Crusader.

I changed my Super Wolf build so it's no longer Super Wolf, but same concept. No more wolf totems, but Crusader instead. It. Will. ROCK.

Fhaolan
2008-05-09, 11:09 PM
I just realized something Meph: a wolf (worg) crusader/warblade/swordsage with Improved Trip will get a free attack after executing a maneuver with their bite attack if they have Imp Trip. That is some serious hurt.

Also, a ToB class wolf (worg) doesn't suffer from the multiple attack problem as much. Particularly Crusader.

I changed my Super Wolf build so it's no longer Super Wolf, but same concept. No more wolf totems, but Crusader instead. It. Will. ROCK.

Our worg builds were before ToB, and many of the Complete suppliments, so I'm absolutely sure there's stuff in those that would make a big difference if we were to rebuild those characters again. I have access to a ToB, but it's not mine so I've not really spent enough time (read: at all) to understand it. Is there anything in there that would be interesting for a rage-filled barbarian-worg type? Or is it all high-discipline kind of stuff?

dman11235
2008-05-10, 08:17 AM
Well, you can't use maneuvers while raging (iirc) due to rage's stipulations that you can't do much of anything, but yeah, there's a bit in there that can be useful. Especially since most strikes are standard actions, and you only have one attack anyways, you can get the damage of a full attack (well, a little less) on a single attack. And a bunch of other options too. I haven't looked at Tiger Claw yet, but I think a bunch of that stuff works really well with natural weapons. And it mostly emulates the nature's warrior path, so it's like a barbarian. My current wolf is using White Raven and Devoted Spirit to be a huge boon to the other melee characters of the party (it's a big party too). I go in, strike with Leading the Attack or Vanguard's Strike granting the rest of them a +4 bonus to attack for a round against the opponent, and trip the guy, making him prone (and getting a second bite attack against him. Yummy!), and dart out again, letting them clean up the rest of the enemy.

Chronos
2008-05-10, 04:28 PM
Well, you can't use maneuvers while raging (iirc) due to rage's stipulations that you can't do much of anything,I don't think there's any explicit answer for all maneuvers in general. Anything which requires a Concentration check is certainly impossible while raging, and things which are described as requiring precise, measured action or the like probably fail on rage's stipulation of "nothing requiring patience". But your typical Tiger Claw maneuver, say, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible in rage.

Swiftpaw Fatfox
2008-06-09, 08:39 AM
The rules for somatic spells is that a somatic component is one or more measured and precise movement of the hand and you must have at least one hand free. The thing is that a paw can be used in the same way for purposes of movements as long as one paw is able to be moved.

As for not having thumbs that doesn't mean they can't hold an item (such as a material component) nor does it mean they can't use an item, it's just going to be harder.

I created a racial trait for my variant of the hengeyokai which gives them -4 to all hand based checks because of lack of thumbs. They could still wield a sword but they are going to miss badly and easily disarmed.

As far as donning equipment goes it might take them a bit longer and they can't hurry with out help.

I also created a special item template that ignores the -4 penalty and when used with a weapon it also makes it unable to be disarmed, though it can only work with a weapon in one hand (with exception of a crossbow). It costs +50gp because it is specially made.

ghost_warlock
2008-06-09, 11:01 AM
Art from the worg PbP I had saved on my HD.


http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/All.png
Banner 1
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Worgs.gif
Banner 2
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Bheri.gif
Bheri
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Howler.gif
Howler
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Joan.gif
Joan of Arf
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Kravas.gif
Kravas
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Kurotatsu.gif
Kurotatsu
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Phil.gif
Phil
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Raga.gif
Raga
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Wren.gif
Wren
http://www.geocities.com/wrarx/Trius.gif
Trias

Edit: I think Mephibosheth did all of these. :smallredface:
Edit2: Forgot Howler. :smallredface::smallredface:

Swiftpaw Fatfox
2008-06-11, 07:38 PM
something i found and now gots me thinking is that 3.5 has many creatures with out hands or similar limbs (ie tentacles, pincer claws etc.), but can wield weapons. examples, yeth hounds, nightmares, howlers (may have hand like paws?), hell hounds (same deal as howler), and bebilths.

Fhaolan
2008-06-12, 12:43 PM
something i found and now gots me thinking is that 3.5 has many creatures with out hands or similar limbs (ie tentacles, pincer claws etc.), but can wield weapons. examples, yeth hounds, nightmares, howlers (may have hand like paws?), hell hounds (same deal as howler), and bebilths.

That's true. D&D in general (not just 3.5) has a large number of creatures who are intelligent enough to use tools, and understand the advantages to those tools, but are physically limited in their use.

A lot of them are extraplanar (nightmares, etc.), so you could handwave those away, but it still leaves a lot of material creatures like worgs, howlers, etc. If you want to be 'realistic', those creatures would probably put a fair bit of effort into finding ways to trade for tools with other races and have tools specifically made for their use. Mind you, this is predicated on creatures in D&D acting in reasonable, realistic ways rather than as mindless monsters who exist purely for the purposes of adventuring XP. :smallamused:

Swiftpaw Fatfox
2008-06-12, 01:45 PM
That's true. D&D in general (not just 3.5) has a large number of creatures who are intelligent enough to use tools, and understand the advantages to those tools, but are physically limited in their use.

A lot of them are extraplanar (nightmares, etc.), so you could handwave those away, but it still leaves a lot of material creatures like worgs, howlers, etc. If you want to be 'realistic', those creatures would probably put a fair bit of effort into finding ways to trade for tools with other races and have tools specifically made for their use. Mind you, this is predicated on creatures in D&D acting in reasonable, realistic ways rather than as mindless monsters who exist purely for the purposes of adventuring XP. :smallamused:


very true. I'm still trying to work out the bugs with my own varent of the hengeyokai and trying to decide if they should be more like an anthropomorphic animal or as an awakened animal