Miko Mayizaki VS Paladin Arthas {Warcraft III spoilers}

[Lord]

You saw the title, so place your bets and hope you win. Cause we are getting a real handful.

In the one corner we have the future Lich King of Warcraft III still in his Paladin form. Arthas is at level 10 and still using a giganto hammer.

In the other, we have a very dangerous opponent, the ever agile Miko Mayizaki. She duel wields two weapons, and can dodge huge explosions with ease. This Miko is pre-fall.

They are both the apparent greatest {Arthas may be exceeded by Uther} living paladins in their order warriorwise.

So then let the games begin.

[Teron]

First, be aware that heroes in Warcraft III are assumed to have far more and greater abilities than the four they can use in-game, which should be viewed as a distillation of their broader capabilities. Then, consider the fact that level 10 Arthas can become invincible and resurrect a half-dozen dead soldiers in an instant.

As much as I dislike the conceited brat, there's no denying that he could pound Miko into a runny, sanctified paste faster than you can say "breach of alignment."

[Banjooie]

Two paladins duelling automatically takes a very long time.

Arthas's mana regens, Miko's does not.

[Corsair]

Arthas wins by virtue of Divine Shield. Devotion Aura just makes it better. Miko only gets to hit Arthas 3 rounds out of every 10. Well, until Arthas runs out of mana.

[Demented]

In World of Warcraft, Arthas is apparently a big bad that can take on 60 of the world's most experienced warriors at a time.

So it really should be 60 Miko Miyazakis vs. Arthas Menethil.

=P

[Querzis]

In World of Warcraft, Arthas is apparently a big bad that can take on 60 of the world's most experienced warriors at a time.

So it really should be 60 Miko Miyazakis vs. Arthas Menethil.

=P

Thats the Lich King, the Lich King is far stronger then just Arthas when he was a paladin.

But of course, it still doesnt change the fact that Miko doesnt stand a chance.

[LordCaelvan]

I'm going to assume that the two characters are fighting under the same system, so no infinite spells for Arthas. After that, I'd put my money on Arthas. Why? He's probably younger, true, and has probably been a paladin for less time than Miko. But the fact of the matter is, he's got more experience. He's been on the front-lines for a long time, battling the enemies of Lordaron (so kill me, it's been years since I've played WCIII). Miko has been around the world herself, but I don't think a lifetime of doing special missions for her lord is quite going to come in handy when fighting a seasoned, level 10 warcraft hero.

[Tola]

....Arthas.

Though Miko can heal herself via Lay On Hands, Arthas gets invincibility for a damm long time.

Her only choice is to keep out of his way, and hope she can deal more damage in the times he's actually hurtable than he can heal off during the Divine Shield. Now, that's not entirely unfeasible, since with two weapons, it's likely that she'd have a Fast/Very Fast Attack Speed, and good damage as well.

Whether she'd have the patience to keep it up for the DAYS needed is questionable. Arthas(And most Paladins) by Level 10 has 500, 600 Mana? He's only spending it on Divine Shield, which costs 25. He's NOT running out of shields, even with bad Int meaning slow Mana regeneration. EVER. And Paladins are Strength-Based, which means he'll have good health even with no additional items.

And that's going by Warcraft 3 rules, where Holy Light can't be cast on yourself.

Go to World of Warcraft and it just gets WORSE, as Paladins gain quite a bit of offence, and Holy Light can be cast on yourself. Whilst Divine Shield isn't so spammable, the host of extra abilities(I'm not familiar with World of Warcraft-No Broadband-so I can't exactly go into detail) more than makes up for it.

She may win, but it's a matter of extreme patience. He'll likely win through attrition.

More likely after the first Divine Shield she'd be all over him, trying to secure that skill for the Guard. Which shouldn't be surprising.

"Can....can you teach that to others?"
"I'd have to talk to Uther, but...."

[Chronos]

Keep in mind that Miko has a huge advantage in mobility, thanks to Windstriker. I think she'd probably have the sense to pick up a bow somewhere and just plink him from out of range. It also probably wouldn't take her all that long to pick up on the timing of Divine Shield, so as to avoid wasting arrows when he's invulnerable.

They both have a great AC and a ton of HP, so it would certainly take a while. But even if Arthas can get the upper hand, he still can't beat Miko, since there's no way he could keep up with a horse.

[Tiffanie Lirle]

(are we talking about Arthas pre-Frostmourne or after? I'll just got with after.. :smalltongue:)

Ok, being an avid WoW player with quite a few level 70 characters one of them being a paladin, I'll just go by the WoW rules instead of Arthas in the Warcraft series since I've never played them, and thereby know nothing of them. So this is just my view, I don't actually have any numbers of any sort. :smalltongue:


http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/2064/Image/prince-arthas-lich-king-joined.jpg
Notice anything? Perhaps the giant suit of armor? A katana is a weapon designed mainly for slicing and not so much stabbing, that cheap sword of hers would be next to useless on a full set of plate. The wakizashi.. maybe, depends on the armor itself. Thickness etc.


"The Naaru are a dimension-traveling race of sentient energy beings with a deep affinity for the Holy Light of Creation that empowers the paladins of Azeroth."
Next though, arthas can no longer heal himself with holy light, since becoming quite the evil bastard I would be pretty sure the light would have abandoned him. Since the "light" is basically an energy of sorts drawn from Naaru. They can also stop said flow of energy. So theres a plus for Miko.

However I'll just skip any other arguements I could have brought up, Miko does not stand a chance. None, nada, zilch, zero. Arthas is one of the most powerfull beings in Azeroth Miko, is a overzealous religious fanatic.
Arthas, will take a raid of people to kill. Thats anywhere from 10-40 people, some of the strongest in Azeroth, and thats even if he can really be killed. Miko..was killed by a chair. *cough*

http://www.wowwiki.com/Arthas for all your Warcraft history needs. :smalltongue:

Edit V - Aww, well that does kinda destroy everything I just said. Except for the whole being killing by a chair thing.. *cough* Miko still doesn't have a chance I say.

[Zone]

You, sweetheart, missed one point. We were talking about Arthas the Paladin, not Arthas the Death Knight. So no, he ain't all that powerful.

[Querzis]

You, sweetheart, missed one point. We were talking about Arthas the Paladin, not Arthas the Death Knight. So no, he ain't all that powerful.

Hes as much powerfull actually, he only became much stronger when he fused with Ner'zhul but he wasnt really stronger in his death knight form then in his paladin form. Seriously, no matter if you go at it with Warcraft 3 rules (where he is a level 10 hero that got almost permanent invincibility) with WoW rules (where he would have been a boss) with the D&D rules (Arthas is an epic level paladin in the Warcraft monster manual) or just with the lore (Ner'zhul could have took billions of other creatures to become his body...and he chose him. Even without the paladin power, hes said to be one of the strongest warriors in the world and we are talking about the world where a single warrior can take down dragons or demonlords). So yeah, no matter how you look at it, I give her one minutes max (and thats if she run away while arthas got his shield).

By the way Tiffanie, this isnt D&D. In warcraft, evil paladins dont lose their power, just look at the scarlet crusade. Arthas cant use the light not because he became an evil bastard but because he became an undead so light hurt him.

Oddly enough, the only ones who lose their powers if they became evil bastard are shaman. Shaman dont actually have any powers, they can just communicates with spirits. They just ask the spirits to do things and the spirits wont do anything thats evil. Drek'tar said in one of the books that the spirits ignored his request to destroy a village and refused to talk to him for years after that.

[Timberboar]

Arthas' plot armor is much stronger than Miko's.

[Gashad]

I am going to go against the prevailing opinion and say Miko, because:

1. As a WC III paladin Arthas offensive abilities are a joke, none of his abilities boost his damage, meaning that it will take along time for him to kill Miko.

2. Two of his abilities ressurection and holy light are useless

3. His divine shield as powerfull as it is, is negated by :

a) Miko has monk levels so she can run faster then him, this means she can simply run around in circles while it is on.

b) She can also summon a horse, which would make avoiding Arthas really easy

So all of Arthas abilities except his Aura can be made, or are useless(and his Aura isn't too good either TBH), and their is no way he can match a self healing Miko, who probably deals 3 times his damage(even more if it is when he has become evil[I would argue that he had become evil before frostmourne]) in a straight melee

[FrostXian]

Miko may win due to her massive speed advantage.

[Querzis]

I am going to go against the prevailing opinion and say Miko, because:

1. As a WC III paladin Arthas offensive abilities are a joke, none of his abilities boost his damage, meaning that it will take along time for him to kill Miko.

2. Two of his abilities ressurection and holy light are useless

3. His divine shield as powerfull as it is, is negated by :

a) Miko has monk levels so she can run faster then him, this means she can simply run around in circles while it is on.

b) She can also summon a horse, which would make avoiding Arthas really easy

So all of Arthas abilities except his Aura can be made, or are useless(and his Aura isn't too good either TBH), and their is no way he can match a self healing Miko, who probably deals 3 times his damage(even more if it is when he has become evil[I would argue that he had become evil before frostmourne]) in a straight melee

Lol, if you only use what Arthas could do in Warcraft 3, then you also have to convert Miko to a Warcraft unit...where she would just be a regular unit against a level 10 hero. And yes, she would just be a regular unit, a D&D level 15 paladin/monk aint nothing special in the warcraft world, shes nothing but a regular unit. A strong unit, an unit almost as strong as a tauren, but an unit anyway. And even if you believe shes a hero, which is kinda ridiculous since they converted Warcraft 3 units in the monster manuals and many were CR 13 or more, Arthas is an epic paladin by D&D standard so she would just be a level 2 or 3 hero compared to him.

And honestly, if you really wanna make a D&D unit fight a warcraft 3 unit (which make little sense since its two really different settings but whatever) then Arthas win so easely its laughable. By level ten, Arthas actually got a 60% damage reduction on anything Miko do (thats how armor work in warcraft 3), got crazy HP regen (pretty much the quivalent of 10 hp each round in D&D since one round last 10 seconds) DO attack pretty much 8 times a round (remember, one round is ten seconds) cant actually even miss her, got a thousand hp and do about 40 damage every freaking time. In other word, he kill her in one round.

Most D&D character and monster would be killed with just one stormbolt from a level 1 mountain king. Even if they just got four spells, a level 10 hero from warcraft in the D&D world would be a god. In other word, if you wanna use Arthas the level ten hero, then Miko is a warcraft unit (she got more chance like that anyway) and if you wanna use Arthas the epic paladin and one of the best warriors in the world, then Miko can be a D&D character. Thats actually the only way she could win, if they were both two D&D character. Sure he got probably double his CR but in D&D, anyone can be lucky and get an autokill (well except against undead but he wasnt dead back then).

[Gashad]

Lol, if you only use what Arthas could do in Warcraft 3, then you also have to convert Miko to a Warcraft unit...where she would just be a regular unit against a level 10 hero. And yes, she would just be a regular unit, a D&D level 15 paladin/monk aint nothing special in the warcraft world, shes nothing but a regular unit. A strong unit, an unit almost as strong as a tauren, but an unit anyway. And even if you believe shes a hero, which is kinda ridiculous since they converted warcraft 3 units in the monster manuals and many were CR 13 or more, Arthas is an epic paladin by D&D standard so she would just be a level 2 or 3 hero compared to him.

And honestly, if you really wanna make a D&D unit fight a warcraft 3 unit (which make little sens since its two really different settings but whatever) then Arthas win so easely its laughable. By level ten, Arthas actually got a 60% damage reduction on anything Miko do (thats how armor work in warcraft 3), got crazy HP regen (pretty much the quivalent of 10 hp each round in D&D since one round last 10 seconds) DO attack pretty much 8 times a round (remember, one round is ten seconds) cant actually even miss her and do about 35 damage every freaking time. In other word, he kill her in one round. Most D&D epic character and monster would be killed with just one strombolt from a level 1 mountain king.

Hmm, i dont know about the transfer from wc3 units to D&D units that you are citing so i can't answer that.

However:

I find it quite ludicrous to transfer Miko to warcraft 3 and make her a monster as with a PC class she resembles the hero class much better then the monster classes. As to making her a level 2 hero, i would say that feels even more ridiculous as she is probably the second or third most powerful character in the entire known OOTS universe (Xykon is probably stronger then her, and Mitd gives the impression of being stronger then everything even though we don't know enougth to tell), so how you get her to be a level 2 wc 3 hero i cannot understand.

Furthermore when I was comparing them i more or less took their relative strengths and weaknesses compared to the enemies of their respective game system(for instance as a monk Miko moves quicker then average, so she can be viewed as fast moving, while a level ten Paladins attack speed is quite mediocre in WC III standards, so they can be viewed to have perhaps 2 attacks per round).

Even though I agree that due to the difference in setting any comparison
is pure speculation and serves no purpose other then enjoyment of those who do it.

[Querzis]

I find it quite ludicrous to transfer Miko to warcraft 3 and make her a monster as with a PC class she resembles the hero class much better then the monster classes. As to making her a level 2 hero, i would say that feels even more ridiculous as she is probably the second or third most powerful character in the entire known OOTS universe (Xykon is probably stronger then her, and Mitd gives the impression of being stronger then everything even though we don't know enougth to tell), so how you get her to be a level 2 wc 3 hero i cannot understand.

Monster class? There is no monster class. Heroes in Warcraft 3 are the one-man army who switch the side of battle as soon as they enter the fray. Yes, shes powerfull in the OOTS world but we arent talking about the OOTS world here. We are talking about a world were people like Sargeras, the Lich king or the Old gods lives. We are talking about monster and peoples who could conquer the entire OOTS world (even though Arthas wasnt strong enough to do that back when he was alive). We are talking about people like Archimonde who destroyed entire city full of thousand of trained mages with just one spells he made with sand! We are talking about Illidan who killed a lots of powerfull demons with one spell back in the first war. We are talking about Thrall who just destroyed the greatest human fortress just with his anger when Blackmoore killed his girlfriend.

So yes, Miko is nothing more then a strong unit for Warcraft 3 standard.


Furthermore when I was comparing them i more or less took their relative strengths and weaknesses compared to the enemies of their respective game system(for instance as a monk Miko moves quicker then average, so she can be viewed as fast moving, while a level ten Paladins attack speed is quite mediocre in WC III standards, so they can be viewed to have perhaps 2 attacks per round).

...Its your first vs thread? We arent talking about how strong they are compared to other people in their respective world. Even though Krillin is one of the weakest DBZ fighter, he could still conquer many other fantasy world (sorry for talking about DBZ but it is one fantasy world were most of the characters can destroy planet litteraly). We are talking about their actual strength if they fight each other. One round is ten seconds so no matter how you look at it, Arthas got at least 8 attack per rounds when hes level 10. I should probably play the human campaign again to calcute it though.


Even though I agree that due to the difference in setting any comparison
is pure speculation and serves no purpose other then enjoyment of those who do it.

Well, since there is a warcraft manuals with D&D rules, this aint speculation. And, once again, Arthas is an epic paladin by D&D standard. I dont actually have the monster manual so you would have to ask someone else for his hp, stats and the rest but I remember at least that hes epic. I had a site in my favorite where most of the monster manual was but I'm guessing Blizzard closed the site. The Lich King himself is CR 50 by the way and he had tons of cool abilities.

[Chronos]

Monster class? There is no monster class. Heroes in Warcraft 3 are the one-man army who switch the side of battle as soon as they enter the fray. Yes, shes powerfull in the OOTS world but we arent talking about the OOTS world here. We are talking about a world were people like Sargeras, the Lich king or the Old gods lives.And Arthas is powerful in the WC3 world, but we aren't talking about the WC3 world here. We are talking about a world where beings like Dorukan, the Twelve Gods, or the Snarl live.

See? That cuts both ways. We have to have some basis of comparison between them, and where they stand in their respective worlds is as good a basis as we're going to get.

That said, we do know of quite a few other beings (even mortals) in Stickworld who are comparable to or more powerful than Miko. All of the Order of the Scribble, Xykon, and the incarnum user Redcloak declined to use to interrogate O-Chul, are all definitely more powerful than her, Julio Scoundrèl is probably more powerful, and Redcloak and Leeky Windstaff are probably about on a par with her. So she's in the top dozen or so, as far as power goes.

By the same token, though, at three heroes per race and four races, Arthas is also in the top dozen or so, in his world. And that's assuming that the playable heroes are the most powerful folks in the world, and that there aren't any NPCs above them.

[Gashad]

Monster class? There is no monster class. Heroes in Warcraft 3 are the one-man army who switch the side of battle as soon as they enter the fray. Yes, shes powerfull in the OOTS world but we arent talking about the OOTS world here. We are talking about a world were people like Sargeras, the Lich king or the Old gods lives. We are talking about monster and peoples who could conquer the entire OOTS world (even though Arthas wasnt strong enough to do that back when he was alive). We are talking about people like Archimonde who destroyed entire city full of thousand of trained mages with just one spells he made with sand! We are talking about Illidan who killed a lots of powerfull demons with one spell back in the first war. We are talking about Thrall who just destroyed the greatest human fortress just with his anger when Blackmoore killed his girlfriend.


I was talking about from a pure game play angle not cinematic. Arthas at lvl 10 in the campaign would struggle to win a battle against 6 or 8 random enemies that move faster then him and are played intelligently, and hence from that point of view he is not too powerfull ( especially as Paladins while being one of the most powerful heroes in wc 3 are quite weak solo as half their abilities are rendered useless then)

I guess the monster class term was a poorly chosen word, I meant by it non-hero.






...Its your first vs thread? We arent talking about how strong they are compared to other people in their respective world. Even though Krillin is one of the weakest DBZ fighter, he could still conquer many other fantasy world. We are talking about their actual strength if they fight each other. One round is ten seconds so no matter how you look at it, Arthas got at least 8 attack per rounds when hes level 10. I should probably play the human campaign again to calcute it though.



My point is that a 1-1 transfer would at least according to me be ludicrous. For instance a human worker(which I would say would be the D&D equivalent of a commoner or a lvl 1warrior perhaps) would if transfered directly according to your be a monstrosity with 8 attacks a round and 250 hp, while I admit it is one way of doing it I find it completely ridiculous. hence I argue that my way of relative strengths and weakness is better). And as if this is my first versus thread i remember distinctly one about a FF game compared to OOTS, and the overwhelming consensus seemed to agree that a direct transfer of damage from FF to OOTS would be ridiculous(as they generally did thousands of damage per hit), So I believe there are predecents for taking relative strengths(besides taking absolute numbers as you seem to be doing would only really determine which game system likes the biggest numbers)



Well, since there is a warcraft manuals with D&D rules, this aint speculation. And, once again, Arthas is an epic paladin by D&D standard. I dont actually have the monster manual so you would have to ask someone else for his hp, stats and the rest but I remember at least that hes epic. I had a site in my favorite where most of the monster manual was but I'm guessing Blizzard closed the site. The Lich King himself is CR 50 by the way and he had tons of cool abilities.

As I said previously I am not familiar with the monster manual you speak of. However from this I get the impression it was made by Blizzard which means it can hardly be seen as D&D canon and hence I would argue it is irrelevant.

[Querzis]

And Arthas is powerful in the WC3 world, but we aren't talking about the WC3 world here. We are talking about a world where beings like Dorukan, the Twelve Gods, or the Snarl live.

Durokan would probably qualify as a hero but you shoudnt really bring gods into this. If you do that, then warcraft gods destroy the OOTS world in one second while the OOTS gods destroy the warcraft world in one second. Either way, we shoudnt talk about gods.


See? That cuts both ways. We have to have some basis of comparison between them, and where they stand in their respective worlds is as good a basis as we're going to get.

As I said dont bring gods into this so the only real measure of comparison is the order of the scribble and Xykon. And yes they would qualify as heroes in the warcraft world since they are one-man army who can totally change the side of a battle when they join the fray and who can kill hundred or even thousand of normal warriors. Of course it still doesnt beat people like Sargeras or the Lich king who are kinda insane but its almost as strong as Arthas back when he was alive. But Miko isnt even one of those anyway and would die very quicly against anyone in the order of the scribble or Xykon so i dont know why you said that...


That said, we do know of quite a few other beings (even mortals) in Stickworld who are comparable to or more powerful than Miko. All of the Order of the Scribble, Xykon, and the incarnum user Redcloak declined to use to interrogate O-Chul, are all definitely more powerful than her, Julio Scoundrèl is probably more powerful, and Redcloak and Leeky Windstaff are probably about on a par with her. So she's in the top dozen or so, as far as power goes.

In the top dozen? I really dont know how you can consider someone who could be taken care of by a single spell of Xykon, Durokan or Lirian to be even remotely in the same league as them.


By the same token, though, at three heroes per race and four races, Arthas is also in the top dozen or so, in his world. And that's assuming that the playable heroes are the most powerful folks in the world, and that there aren't any NPCs above them.

There are lots of monsters above them, the five dragons aspects for example, but it woudnt really be fair to be able to use them now would it? By the way, its four heroes per race and lots of mercenaries heroes. Doesnt really see your point on that one though, the fact that many 'normal' warriors who dont have much effect on the plot are also epic levels warriors doesnt seems like a good thing for the OOTS world as far as I'm concerned.


As I said previously I am not familiar with the monster manual you speak of. However from this I get the impression it was made by Blizzard which means it can hardly be seen as D&D canon and hence I would argue it is irrelevant.

...uh? Blizzard created Arthas so if Blizzard say hes that powerfull, hes that powerfull. I dont see how its supposed to be not cannon. When Blizzard say the Lich king can control 2100hd of undead directly, he can control 2100hd of undead directly and you cant really argue with it. Its like saying every non-core book is not cannon. It doesnt matter if things or class in another D&D books are unbalanced, nobody force you to use them but they are cannon.

[wodan46]

Calculations go both ways:
In WC3, Peasants have 220 HP, and can be presumed to be commoners, who at best have 1d6 HP.

Arthas has about 1250 HP in his Paladin Guise. He would therefore have about 6dX HP, 6D10 at best, for about 80 HP with a good Con.

Mechanically wise, Arthas is pathetic, due to the power curve being negative, rather than linear for D&D fighters and exponential for D&D wizards.

[Axl_Rose]

I am going to go against the prevailing opinion and say Miko, because:

1. As a WC III paladin Arthas offensive abilities are a joke, none of his abilities boost his damage, meaning that it will take along time for him to kill Miko.

2. Two of his abilities ressurection and holy light are useless

3. His divine shield as powerfull as it is, is negated by :

a) Miko has monk levels so she can run faster then him, this means she can simply run around in circles while it is on.

b) She can also summon a horse, which would make avoiding Arthas really easy

So all of Arthas abilities except his Aura can be made, or are useless(and his Aura isn't too good either TBH), and their is no way he can match a self healing Miko, who probably deals 3 times his damage(even more if it is when he has become evil[I would argue that he had become evil before frostmourne]) in a straight melee

I like your reasoning! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Wodan also makes a good point from a game mechanics POV:


Mechanically wise, Arthas is pathetic, due to the power curve being negative, rather than linear for D&D fighters and exponential for D&D wizards.

Querzis points are less convincing;

"War3 heros are so badass and can change the fate of a universe, COME ON!"

Chronos does a better job explicating what I mean in Post 19

[TARINunit9]

:smallcool: This is a no-brainer!

I only played the first... , let me count, 4 missions of Warcraft 3, and I know for a fact that Miko stands a snowball in Hell (bottom floor) chance!
Arthas will kick her "Skinny uptight ***" to Timbuktu!!

[chiasaur11]

Well, in Oots, PCs DO act like Hero units. Remember the battle of Azure City?
Roy, Belkar, and Co. were deadlier than almost anyone besides Xykon and Redcloak by a large enough margin to be slaughtering gobbos left and right.

That says "Hero unit" fairly clearly.

So, yeah, Miko has a fair chance here by reasonable translation, but no guarantee by any means.

(If it was O-Chul, of course, we wouldn't have a contest.)

[Chronos]

Durokan would probably qualify as a hero but you shoudnt really bring gods into this. If you do that, then warcraft gods destroy the OOTS world in one second while the OOTS gods destroy the warcraft world in one second. Either way, we shoudnt talk about gods.Uh, you did notice that you brought gods into this, right?
We are talking about a world were ... the Old gods lives.

[Demented]

Edit: The Old Gods in Warcraft aren't gods. They're more like huge, fat, immovable beholders. Death Knight Arthas killed one, admittedly with the aid of a 30-foot-tall umber-hulk/scarab/hybrid king.


Thats the Lich King, the Lich King is far stronger then just Arthas when he was a paladin.

But of course, it still doesnt change the fact that Miko doesnt stand a chance.

True. So as a Paladin at the peak of his powers (somewhere just before he gets Frostmourne, let's assume) he's probably closer to 20 fairly powerful characters. :smallbiggrin:

Judging alone by the way Warcraft Paladins wield those hammers, I don't think Miko has a chance. Unless she hops on Windstriker and flees, bow-a-shootin', and there's nothing stopping Arthas from doing the same in pursuit. Though, I suspect neither of them would be willing to stoop to ranged weapons for such a battle.

Fluff/Story-wise, Arthas is somewhat like Hinjo. That is, heir to the throne, second-best Paladin of the realm, a bit too youthful to rule, etc. Except that, where Hinjo is kind and inept, Arthas is a loose cannon and badass to boot.

[Zorn]

Since we can't really rely on either system, let's look at it this way:

Arthas - he's certainly one of the strongest human characters in Warcraft III. I think it is safe to say that, as far as the Warcraft world goes, there is little if any room for improvement without sacrificing his paladin-hood.

Miko - she's currently the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard. Compared to at least one paladin, however, she is weak. There is certainly room for a good deal of improvement.

Arthas, as one of the most powerful paladins in Warcraft lore, should match up with the strongest paladin in the OotS world (provided, of course, that said paladin also retains his or her paladin status). So far Soon fits that profile. There might be paladins even stronger than him, but since he would have little trouble with Miko it doesn't matter much.

[chiasaur11]

Miko - she's currently the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard. Compared to at least one paladin, however, she is weak. There is certainly room for a good deal of improvement.

.

C'mon man. Compared to O-Chul, we're ALL mere level 1 commoners. That's why we let him sit out these discussions.

[Querzis]

Uh, you did notice that you brought gods into this, right?

The old Gods are just gods by name really. They can be killed fairly easely and one was killed by Arthas before he even became the lich king. If you didnt even knew that, I'm guessing you really aint familiar with the warcraft universe. Gods in the warcraft universe would more be the five spirits and Elune. Especially Elune, I mean CR 92? What the hell is that thing??? Though I'm guessing the spirits would more match our definition of gods since they are omniscient and seems omnipotent. The spirit of life as been said to be able to simply destroy all life in the universe (though I'm guessing it would destroy him too since a spirit of life without life cant really do anything:smallamused:).


Querzis points are less convincing;

"War3 heros are so badass and can change the fate of a universe, COME ON!"

Chronos does a better job explicating what I mean in Post 19

:smallsigh:No my point is that, while there is character in the OOTS world who can do that, Miko aint one. You are making an epic paladin fight a level 15 one. As Zorn proposed, at least make this Soon vs Arthas then we'll talk. Soon in his deathless ghost form that cant be hurt by the positive energy spells that Arthas got, now that could be an interresting match. I could even bet on Soon on that one since Arthas 50% chance of missing a ghost and his spell cant hurt Soon. Though divine shield could even the odds a bit and I'm pretty sure Soon spells and ability woudnt work either...

Anyway, do you think really actully think Miko would last more then one round against Xykon, Lirian, Soon or the MiTD? No? Then dont expect her to last more then one round against Arthas either.

[Teron]

Their power relative to their own world is irrelevent, and invoking it is a logical fallacy. The pinnacle of personal power in the real world is pretty much a black belt with a gun; in Eberron it's a non-epic spellcaster. would you put either in the same league as Elminster, Drizz't or whatever?

Likewise, the main Warcraft heroes are depicted in the fluff as being so earth-shakingly powerful that it's simply absurd to compare them to anything pre-epic in D&D. Grom Hellscream took out Mannoroth the Destructor in one swipe, right through the giant shield over his belly; Miko would get wiped out by a plain balor.

A couple of asides:
1. Don't underestimate Warcraft III's worker units. A bunch of them took out the second most powerful demon in that multiverse. :smalltongue:

2. Querzis, a D&D round is six seconds.

[lord_khaine]

Anyway, do you think really actully think Miko would last more then one round against Xykon, Lirian, Soon or the MiTD? No? Then dont expect her to last more then one round against Arthas either.


actualy yes, i doubt anyone but the MiTD has any actual hope of taking her down in a singel round.

it seems Miko's saves are good enough to let her have a fair chance of making whatever saves she is required to, that means she wont be taken out with save-or-die spells from Xykon or Lirian, and i do belive the latest estimate of her hp lets her survive a full attack from soon.

[Gashad]

Their power relative to their own world is irrelevent, and invoking it is a logical fallacy. The pinnacle of personal power in the real world is pretty much a black belt with a gun; in Eberron it's a non-epic spellcaster. would you put either in the same league as Elminster, Drizz't or whatever?



I think you misunderstand my point with relative strength slightly. The thing is that WCIII and D&D are completely different gaming system hence relatiity is nccessary to compare them. for instance Miko with monk levels can be seen as fast moving, as compared to most D&D humans she would move considerably quicker(hence she is relatively quick).

Arthas on the other hand I have not gotten the impression that paladins moved particularly quickly in WC III(even though it was ages since I played it), so his speed can only be considered average.

From this I arque that Miko would move quicker then Arthas.

Likewise on damage while Miko has proven herself to be able to dish out considerably damage for instance when killing the bandit leader and his daughter(Or alternatively the bandit leader and her father depending on who you view to be in charge at the present:smallsmile:), or when beating the OOTS. While Paladins in WC III are pretty low damage dealers compared to other heroes.

On the topic of story in WCIII, this represents one of the paradoxes of WC III, fluff wise the main characters are extremely powerful, but game play wise they are not so strong. I have chosen to chose Arthas gameplay abilities as opposed to his fluff abilities( as the first post mentioned him as a paladin at level 10 which is a direct gameplay reference), even though I can see taking his fluff abilities may give you different conclusions on who would win.

[Bayar]

Arthas has Divine shield that gives him Invulnerability. Dunno anything that can let you be untargetted by anything and still allow you to hit things.

The Sanctuary spell gives you something like that, but the attacker can make a will save to bypass it. And also, if you attack, the spell ends. And it is in 1 round/level.

Yup, Arthas is epic.

[Rayzin]

Shouldnt this be in the media section?

I actually dont see how Miko has a chance if Arthas was level 10, if he was level 5-7 it might be fair.

[Chronos]

The old Gods are just gods by name really. They can be killed fairly easely and one was killed by Arthas before he even became the lich king. If you didnt even knew that, I'm guessing you really aint familiar with the warcraft universe.Played through WCIII, but not the expansion or WoW. I figured that'd be enough to contribute to this question, given that we're considering Arthas pre-Frostmourne.

And if we don't assume that the worlds they're set in are roughly comparable overall, then we can't really assume anything. Otherwise, I could say that I'm more powerful than either, because I have the ability to get a message to millions of people around the world all at once, something that nobody in either of those universes can do. It sounds impressive, until you realize that there are hundreds of millions of other people in my world who can do the same thing.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Really, Arthas wins and it's a no brainer. For the sake of argument, let's put the power in perspective:

"Arise, Ghost martyrs of the sapphire guard!" That was Soon Kim, the biggest paladin of the sapphire guard. And his gimmick was temporal.


"ARISE, Brave men! We shall not be defeated! Justice shall prevail, and our righteous might shall shake the heavens! FOR LORDAERON!" That's EVERY. LEVEL 10. PALADIN. Yeah, there's quite a few around, and they canonically don't even measure close to Uther The Lightbringer or Arthas. One hit from a blessed hammer would send Miko flying like Haley after being hit by Tsukiko's orb of electricity. Times 10. Consider that hammer can destroy a Wyrm in a matter of a few hits, now consider Miko could not face a Wyrm and survive, ever.

The worst thing? Everybody who mentions Windstrider, forget that, if we go by the game itself, Arthas can cover large plains in minutes. Of course, he isn't THAT fast, but he certainly is no pushover at speed either.

[Chronos]

So you're saying that Arthas would win because WC3 paladins deliver longer speeches?


The worst thing? Everybody who mentions Windstrider, forget that, if we go by the game itself, Arthas can cover large plains in minutes.You don't want to go bringing timing into this. Typical warcraft units attack what, twice per second of play-time, or so? Now consider that in-game, a full day cycle takes about 10 minutes of play-time. That means that Arthas and company are actually only getting in less than one attack per minute, in their time, compared to Miko's 50 attacks per minute.

[Azerian Kelimon]

And each of them is earthshaking. Fair tradeoff, it means one hit and Miko is deader than a killed Mane.

[OITS]

Oooh... really obvious: Arthas has 3k HP, Miko only 110 (or whatever). It is OBVIOUS, Arhtas would win. Oh. Wait. It COULD be, that the scale isn't the same. Hmm... now we would have to start up our brains, but no. Arhtas wins, because he has Damage Reduction of 80% and Miko doesn't hit him with every swing of her weapons. 'Cause he has Damage Reduction and AC. Miko not, she gets hit every time, because Arthas never fails to hit, and of course, she doesn't have Damage Reduction - why should she, she is no Barbarian. Miko has only a limited amount of spells, Arthas' mana regenerates, so he can cast endlessly.

For those, who didn't get the small amount of sarcasm above:
You can't compare these systems. Never. Never. You can't say, Arthas is able to kill Wyrms and Miko will never be. You can't say, Arthas has more than 10 times Mikos HP. You can't say, he can attack 30 times as often as she can. You can't compare anything here. As mentioned before - if we take peasants as constant factor, according to HP, Miko would be superior.

This is the least needed thread I've ever read. And I say ever. Ever. You can't compare a complex game als DnD to WCIII. In WCIII they need enormous nummers. Ever tried to divide them all by 10? It would absolutly make no difference, if damage, as well as HP would be reduced to a tenth. But - oh - i forgot, that all those stupid players need to have big numbers. I figured out that the higher the numbers of a game are, the lower is the complexity and the worse is the plot. WCIII is a nice game, but it is simple. I'm not talking about a level of difficulty, but a level of invested thoughts in the game. So just stop discussing this useless discussion. You can't compare.

*goestobedangryly* (it's 3:15 AM where I live)

[Demented]

So you're saying that Arthas would win because WC3 paladins deliver longer speeches?

You don't want to go bringing timing into this. Typical warcraft units attack what, twice per second of play-time, or so? Now consider that in-game, a full day cycle takes about 10 minutes of play-time. That means that Arthas and company are actually only getting in less than one attack per minute, in their time, compared to Miko's 50 attacks per minute.

Or, more likely, the Azerothian day in Warcraft 3 is only about 5 minutes long. :smalltongue: Worse for Miko, it's stated that each round is 6 seconds long. So she only makes one attack every 2 seconds (average). Ouch. But this is not without its benefits too. Her Lay on Hands ability replenishes automatically each day, and since days are shorter... Not that it saves her from Arthas.

If worse comes to worst, she can break the 4th wall and run away.
I don't think Arthas would be allowed to follow her.

[Zorn]

You can't say, Arthas is able to kill Wyrms and Miko will never be [able].

Wait, why not? As you pointed out, we cannot directly compare the two systems. Wouldn't it be logical, then, to assume that the monsters they interact with have a similar power level (i.e. a gelatinous blob appears in both games, in DnD with let's say 120 hp, in Warcraft with 5000 hp. Because Miko can defeat the DnD blob, we can assume that, when converted to a Warcraft setting, she can defeat the Warcraft blob just as easily). Now, let's look at what Arthas can do (http://www.wowwiki.com/Arthas_Menethil) and then think about what Miko seems capable of from what we've seen.

Now from what that link shows us (I apologize that I can't simply cite from memory, it's been a long time since I last played Warcraft III) Arthas is capable of downing powerful dragons (admittedly not singlehandedly, but his allies had not even been able to enter the dragon's lair much less defeat it), orc war leaders, powerful necromancers (not that Kel'Thuzad really fought back as I recall), fought back seemingly endless waves of undead (once again he was not alone, but I doubt anyone would argue that the soldiers he commanded would have been nearly as successful without him), and on top of that proving to be a potent commander and tactician.

Miko is not a weakling and I certainly don't think Arthas could take her out instantly, but I cannot see her being strong enough to accomplish most of the feats listed above. Given what Miko has shown us as far as tactical finesse goes, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see her outmaneuvered by, well, anybody.

As I said previously, I think Soon would be much more of a match for Arthas. They are both the strongest paladin (the strongest so far, in Soon's case) in their respective worlds. It makes more sense that they would match up more or less. Miko is still a lowly paladin in many ways and still has a long way to go.

[Lord]

Okay, I have an idea. We do three rounds. Each Character is converted.

Round 1: Warcraft III style, Miko is a hero by the way. I think Arthas would win, due to his divine shield.

Round 2: D&D style. Arthas I would say to be at least 18th level, though I think it is more. Arthas wins.

Round 3: OOTS style D&D. Miko commits suicide while Arthas tries to figure out the rules. Arthas commits suicide shortly there after from sheer frustration. Tie

Mind you that this is just my personal opinion, this thread is not biased because I state it. If you honestly think Arthas would be a level 1 commoner I respect your opinion.

[dragoncmd]

http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/2064/Image/prince-arthas-lich-king-joined.jpg
Notice anything? Perhaps the giant suit of armor? A katana is a weapon designed mainly for slicing and not so much stabbing, that cheap sword of hers would be next to useless on a full set of plate. The wakizashi.. maybe, depends on the armor itself. Thickness etc.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Arthas for all your Warcraft history needs. :smalltongue:

Edit V - Aww, well that does kinda destroy everything I just said. Except for the whole being killing by a chair thing.. *cough* Miko still doesn't have a chance I say.
Theres a reason that japanese armors historically were never as large or defensive as european armors. katanas can cut through almost any defense with ease. The only reason to have armor against one is to delfect any blow that would hit at an angle, if the katana is heading straight into the armor, almost any defense is useless. Unless you want to argue about enchantments on the armor, it will only slow him down and provide mediocre at best protection.

Other than that, I know very little about Arthas. I've played both wow and Warcraft III, and I can't say I enjoyed them. Guildwars is just so much better than WOW, and starcraft is my RTS of choice. Seems to me hes just a copy of Kerrigan, Blizzard has no orginality any more. Still looking foward to World of Diablo though.

[Beguilement]

No contest. Arthas.

(While I think it's silly to need to go into the overwhelming number of reasons, I keep hearing people arguing that Miko could kite Arthas. Exactly how can you kite someone who lives in real life and is able to walk into a building or just pick up a ranged weapon himself?)

[Chronos]

Theres a reason that japanese armors historically were never as large or defensive as european armors. katanas can cut through almost any defense with ease.Only in anime. While you might, just maybe, be able to cut through steel plate with a katana, it'd completely ruin the blade. And you'd need to penetrate the armor many times before its protection was diminished significantly. So in the best case scenario, you'd be talking five or ten hits on your enemy's armor before you start hurting him, by which point your weapon is nothing more than a big iron club. Or more likely several big iron clubs, since you'd probably have to switch swords every couple of blows.

[Teron]

Theres a reason that japanese armors historically were never as large or defensive as european armors. katanas can cut through almost any defense with ease. The only reason to have armor against one is to delfect any blow that would hit at an angle, if the katana is heading straight into the armor, almost any defense is useless. Unless you want to argue about enchantments on the armor, it will only slow him down and provide mediocre at best protection.
Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

[Gashad]

No contest. Arthas.

(While I think it's silly to need to go into the overwhelming number of reasons, I keep hearing people arguing that Miko could kite Arthas. Exactly how can you kite someone who lives in real life and is able to walk into a building or just pick up a ranged weapon himself?)

Ok, i am going to ignore the "lives in real life" comment as it quite frankly makes no sense to me(I.e Arthas does not live in real life). However my point is that Arthas has never shown any profency (or indeed ever used a range weapon), suggesting that he would be quite incompetent with it. Also he probably does not posses one(read never used). Hence I have little doubt to say that Miko due to her superior speed(mounted or not) will be able to keep her distance from Arthas during his divine shield, then it will be a straight meele(sp?) between them(except that Miko has self healing, a mount to help, stunning fists, and smite evils to aid her) as opposed to Arthas who's only useful ability will be his aura.

In the end it will come to who do you think has the most life/does the most damage bearing in mind Miko's advantages which I previously mentioned. By the way I read about Arthas from the story link and I don't see any references to him being godlike in powress(I read up until he got frostmourne), indeed it is important to emphasize during nearly all the exploits it mentioned he was aided by troops(as the info came from the WC III campaign), and any WCIII player will tell you that a Paladin with troops is quite different from a Paladin alone(as he is a support hero).

[Bayar]

Orb of fire. Makes melee attacks ranged.

[Gashad]

Orb of fire. Makes melee attacks ranged.

Only against flying which Miko is not(besides I am pretty sure that feature was only added in the expansion, hence the orb of fire prefrostmourne Arthas can get does not have that feature)

[Wardog]

Really, though, why are they fighting each other?

Surely the most likely result of Miko and Arthas meeting would be form them to unite, and set off on a crusade to smite anyone who doesn't appreciate their actions ;)

[Wardog]

Really, though, why are they fighting each other?

Surely the most likely result of Miko and Arthas meeting would be form them to unite, and set off on a crusade to smite anyone who doesn't appreciate their actions ;)

[Lord]

Really, though, why are they fighting each other?

Surely the most likely result of Miko and Arthas meeting would be form them to unite, and set off on a crusade to smite anyone who doesn't appreciate their actions ;)

Arthas: I'm a metally unstable jackass who is the most powerful member of my order, my favorite things to do consist of, A} Killing orcs, B} Killing Undead, C} Charging head on into obvious traps.

Miko: I'm a mentally unstable jerk, who is also the msot powerful memeber of my order. My favorite things to do ar A} Kill {supposed} evil things, and B} Jump to conclusions which no sane person would even consider.

Both: I think I'm in love.