Why don't they raise Captain America

[Ethrael]

Is there something I'm not getting here? Because I can see no reason why they don't just raise Captain America from the dead. How many times has Jean Grey died? How many times has Hawkeye? And don't get me started on Wolverine.

There's probably some sort of twist that I missed. If anyone is kind enough to point it out, I'd be very grateful. :smallbiggrin:

[Ashes]

Um... The story at this point deals with what happens following his death? It would completely ruin the story they've been building up if he came back?

[Gundato]

Aye. Even Jean Grey is dead for a few issues at a time. Since Cap has yet to turn his mortal coil into a yo-yo, his death will hopefully last a year or two.

[UglyPanda]

Jean has died very often, but she's dead for years at a time. Hawkeye died once and took him a few years to come back. Wolverine never died, he's been brainwashed often, but never died in the mainstream universe. It was also the focus of a story arc in his comic that he was unable to die despite the circumstances.

Ethreal, you're kinda missing the point of Captain's death. It wasn't supposed to be a cheap death, it was supposed to mean that the America he fought so long for is dead and never coming back. Comic book death is so cheap that it has to stick for it to mean anything.

Also, there's a new Captain America, and he's pretty badass while still honoring the original's memory.

[Selrahc]

Is there something I'm not getting here? Because I can see no reason why they don't just raise Captain America from the dead. How many times has Jean Grey died? How many times has Hawkeye? And don't get me started on Wolverine.


Are you talking in universe or out?

In universe the marvelites have no easy way to cure death. Most seeming "deaths" aren't. Most of the ones that aren't are cured by an innate ability of the heroes, or by unknowable cosmic forces.

Out of universe, Marvel made the decision to kill him as part of a story. That story isn't done yet.

[Ethrael]

OK, I understand there's a whole story arc coming out of his death, but what I don't understand is why everyone is just saying "I can't believe he's really dead...""I just can't believe it" etc. when loads of other characters have died in Marvel, and their friends have tried to find a way to bring them back to life.

I can understand that maybe Marvel wanted to make the storyline from his death, but atm, I'm seeing a lot more effort put into the grief than the resurrection...

Marvel's probably planning something big, or just want everyone to focus on Secret Invasion...

[WalkingTarget]

OK, I understand there's a whole story arc coming out of his death, but what I don't understand is why everyone is just saying "I can't believe he's really dead...""I just can't believe it" etc. when loads of other characters have died in Marvel, and their friends have tried to find a way to bring them back to life.

I can understand that maybe Marvel wanted to make the storyline from his death, but atm, I'm seeing a lot more effort put into the grief than the resurrection...

Marvel's probably planning something big, or just want everyone to focus on Secret Invasion...

One possible reason for the "can't believe he's dead" aspect of it is that he was the first "normal" to become a hero. There are some villains who are older in-setting but there aren't many publicly known heroes that are still around (Wolverine's age isn't common knowledge and whatever happened to the original Human Torch, anyway?) so his passing after so much time is sort of the end of the era because it seemed like he'd always be there. At least, that's my take on it.

Edit @Mo a few posts down: really? That's awesome.

[Wolfprint]

I think they "can't believe" that he's not rising from the dead. Given the propensity of Marvel characters to return to the living, Captain America being buried and not having foreshadowing hints of his return may be, to them, disturbing.

I hope they don't raise him though. It would smack of gimmickry, and destroy the idea his death was premised on.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

I think that Cap's Death was a way to shield him from change, with the ever more apparent division in the US today, they had to do somthing.

Also the original Human Torch was what Ultron made the body of the Vision from.

[Count D20]

Frankly, the way that cap died in civil war just seemed cheap and wrong.
The whole event was confused,with so many people trying to say many different things. All it made me feel is that iron man and reed Richards are jerks,insane jerks.
I Hope that soon there will be a story that crosses over Iron man and Captain America's books. the story arc title?
Steve Rogers and Tony Stark breaking out of Skrull !captivity!
Yes, Tony was a skrull the whole time
This heralds a new era in in marvel's writing.FUN!

[EvilJames]

Well since Cap's died a few times before and come back, (sometimes with no explanation at all) the skrull thing could very well lead up to a return by Cap, or an Iron Man redemption. Personally I think Cap should stay dead. Let him join the hallowed ranks of the perma dead. Particularly since both Marvel and DC have been recklessly digging at their graves (resurrecting 2nd Robin and Bucky, oh well at least Uncle Ben is dead again).

[AngelsRetreat]

The skrull thing won't bring him back. Bendis said everything that has happened untill now, the humans have done to themselves.

Captain America is done, old, over. This character deserves to rest.

[North]

Frankly, the way that cap died in civil war just seemed cheap and wrong.
The whole event was confused,with so many people trying to say many different things. All it made me feel is that iron man and reed Richards are jerks,insane jerks.
I Hope that soon there will be a story that crosses over Iron man and Captain America's books. the story arc title?
Steve Rogers and Tony Stark breaking out of Skrull !captivity!
Yes, Tony was a skrull the whole time
This heralds a new era in in marvel's writing.FUN!

It would be nice to have Tony turn out to be a skrull but if Cap were a skrull he would have reverted when he died.

But I really hope they dont bring him back for a long time. His death has ben a great story with really big ramifications, and Bucky becoming Cap has been a great story.

[Ranis]

The reason people couldn't believe that he died is simply because he died in such a stupid way. The man who has no superpowers and who simultaneously is considered one of the world's greatest superheroes, the leader of the Avengers, was sniped. He got shot, boom bang dead. He didn't get the death he deserved as a hero, nor did he die in an epic way, martyring himself saving the world/universe in a way that would have been fitting for his stature.

That's what sets Captain America's death apart from any other Marvel characters'. People expect Wolverine to come back from a single cell, they expect Jean to die and come back up again (Risen from the ashes? Phoenix? Tell me you didn't expect it with a straight face.) and Captain America will come back, eventually. I just hope that his resurrection will be done appropriately and that Marvel killing him in such a stupid way will in some way have a greater calling toward some higher end that we've not seen.

And this new guy with a Celtic cross shield and a pistol? He's no Cap. No one other than Steve Rogers ever will be.

[Selrahc]

The reason people couldn't believe that he died is simply because he died in such a stupid way. The man who has no superpowers and who simultaneously is considered one of the world's greatest superheroes, the leader of the Avengers, was sniped. He got shot, boom bang dead. He didn't get the death he deserved as a hero, nor did he die in an epic way, martyring himself saving the world/universe in a way that would have been fitting for his stature.

Except his death was a little more complicated than that. This was the Red Skulls greatest triumph, part of a giant scheme he had been enacting. Captain America is killed at his lowest ebb, but he still dies like a hero.

When he gets sniped, he could have easily avoided the bullet, but that would have meant people dieing. So he threw himself into the path of the bullet to protect the people.

The sniper wasn't some mook either. This was Crossbones, a long term enemy of Captain America and the Red Skull's most devoted follower.

But this doesn't even kill him! Captain America didn't die from a snipers bullet. His girlfriend had been brainwashed by the Red Skull to kill him in a specific set of conditions.


So sure he didn't die in a moment of triumph, but it wasn't some random snipers bullet that killed him. It was a grand plan by his greatest foe.

[Dark Matter]

The problem with the idea of Cap being dead is they have his body and it "reverted" into something that looks NOTHING like Cap's... which is stock in trade for Zoea's (or whatever the Red Skull's pet geneineer's name is) creations.

So Marvel left themselves a plot hole they can drive a truck through.

[Dalenthas]

Arnim Zola.

I have full confidence in Ed Brubaker that his eventual ressurection will be handled well. After all, anyone that's actually been reading the Captain America comic will know it's all been good so far.

Hey, that actually brings up a good point. Early in the series, the Red Skull got shot and killed (he transferred his mind into another body using the cosmic cube though). Brubaker made it a point to point out that the Skull was currently in a clone of Cap's body, but that didn't degrade after death.... I wonder where Fury stashed that corpse, or are super villain remains normally cremated?

[Count D20]

Plus, the one more day storyline changes the civil war signifigantly.
Maybe a still secret spiderman messed up the shot, or did something else.then the government fakes his death to protect him while he recovers.
Or meybe something else sweeping will change when they resolve that storyline.

[Dalenthas]

Spider-Man's retcon hell will not spread to the rest of the MU.

[Aquillion]

He's old. They feel that a WWII Captain America can't relate to the youth of today, so they killed him.

Seriously, I'll bet that's the reason.

[Devonix]

Ok first of all he didn't die during Civil War he died after it.

Second his death in my opinion was one of the best comic deaths ever. As was already noted he didn't die from a sniper like so many people on the net keep posting he was killed by his brainwashed love intrest of years who is currently carrying his child. All this being done the mechanations of one of the greatest comic book villan's finnaly defeating his sworn enemy. Hell no one expected it, It wasn't hokey and overblown (In story) And it was all done to make it seem that it wasn't even the Red Skulls doing. Hell most people in marvel still believe Red Skull is dead


Third as was also already noted most people in comics don't spontaniously come back from the dead. Unless its some aspect of their powers or in truth they never realy died. There are ways to revive the dead but the're increadibly complicated, difficult and not widely known.

and the Clone didn't revert because it was a clone of his body suffused with the Super soldier serum. Cap's Origional body died and the serum dissolved because of his passing reverting him to what he was before it entered his bloodstream. The clone always had it in its bloodstream so had nothing to revert to.

Fourth People can't believe it because its Captain Frikkin America. even villans respected him. he was someone that everyone just assumed would always be there standing guard and protecting everyone. No one ever expects him to get killed.

Lastly give it time people Thor was dead how many Years? Jean Grey' died a long time ago and joined with the Phoenix as a farewell for the character. and that was years ago. Even comic book deaths that are undone at least last a while.

[Finn Solomon]

No one stays dead except Thomas and Martha Wayne. Cap'll be back eventually, but give him some time.

[SamTheCleric]

If you havent read all of Brubaker's run on Captain America, you really need to... Brubaker was setting up the death of Cap 2 years ago... long before Civil War even started.

[NerfTW]

, they expect Jean to die and come back up again (Risen from the ashes? Phoenix? Tell me you didn't expect it with a straight face.)

Ranis, you do realize that "Pheonix" referred to her death and rebirth in the initial shuttle crash, and after her suicide on the moon, she didn't come back for 10 years, right? They wanted her to stay dead. The Pheonix force went into her daughter from Days of Futures Past, but Jean stayed dead for a very long time.

The only reason they brought her back is the same reason they bring everyone back. Eventually the editorial team changed and they decided to retcon it.

Holding Pheonix up as an example of a planned rebirth is ridiculous.

[mentatzarkon]

I was recently reading through some of the original Captain America books, okay, not the true originals, but the ones from the 70s when Marvel got the license, and one of cap's major character traits was that he felt out of place. He felt unable to relate with the people around him and generally like a relic. Well the symbolism of all that is pretty straightforward: the warm fuzzy (read whitewashed) past that Cap was from was replaced by the cold reality of gangwar, class struggle, cold war, nuclear holocaust etc etc.

Cap represents a yearning for an America that never was, in other words, he represents the true meaning of hope and idealism: to ever reach for something that is ultimately unattainable, but makes a better world in the effort.

So when Marvel kills off Steve Rogers, they're really just saying that we're not even trying to reach for that ideal anymore. Now, you can never really know what Marvel's plans for the future might be, but I don't predict we'll be seeing Steve Rogers rise from the dead anytime soon. Not at least until we see a dramatically different political situation here in the US.

[Innis Cabal]

They retired his shield, he isnt comming back

He's dead Jim

[Devonix]

No one stays dead except Thomas and Martha Wayne. Cap'll be back eventually, but give him some time.


Looks like someone hasn't been reading Batman lately :smallwink:

[Dalenthas]

They retired his shield, he isnt comming back

He's dead Jim

Ummm, when? Bucky's using Steve's old sheild still...

[Illiterate Scribe]

No one stays dead except Thomas and Martha Wayne. Cap'll be back eventually, but give him some time.

MY PARENTS ARE DEAAAAAAAAAAD!

Srsly - I think that the anticlimax of his death makes it even more tragic.

[Xuincherguixe]

He'll be back, but they want to pretend like he isn't.

I'll be a lot of the people that work at Marvel think he's going to stay dead, but being a comic book, he probably won't.


It might be awhile though.

[Aquillion]

Oh, and:

The mandatory flash video (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/218160).

I'm with Xuincherguixe. I think the editorial board intends for his death to stick; they think they're being real smart in kicking out a character nobody could relate to (because he's from so long ago and, unlike others, hasn't slid along with the sliding timescale thanks to his background in WWII.)

But as soon as there's been a change of hands (which could be years from now), they'll bring him back.

[NerfTW]

I was recently reading through some of the original Captain America books, okay, not the true originals, but the ones from the 70s when Marvel got the license,


Marvel has always had the Captain America license, you're thinking of Captain Marvel and DC.

Cap was originally written by Timely Comics, but that is the same entity as Marvel, and in fact had the same writer when he was brought back in Avengers in the 60's. Stan Lee.

[mentatzarkon]

/smacks self in the forehead.
Ah yes, you're quite right. (thanks wikipedia) Not to mention that when they brought back the character they had Jack Kirby on pencils...Have you actually read any of the original comics? I haven't been able to find any of them, but I hear that they're quite...racy...of course they were written during wartime, so this is understandable.

[NerfTW]

/smacks self in the forehead.
Ah yes, you're quite right. (thanks wikipedia) Not to mention that when they brought back the character they had Jack Kirby on pencils...Have you actually read any of the original comics? I haven't been able to find any of them, but I hear that they're quite...racy...of course they were written during wartime, so this is understandable.

That's right, I forgot about Kirby.

Haven't read any of them, but I had a giant Marvel Encyclopedia written in the 90's that showed some of the worse panels in Marvel's history. Not just Cap, but almost every hero (at the time, Namor, Original Human Torch, Miss Liberty) fighting bucktoothed, yellow skinned Japanese, with minstrel show black people as wacky sidekicks.

Run a search on "racism in comics" and you'll probably find whole articles on them.

On "racy" though, Marvel dumped superhero comics for about 20 years, during which they did horror stories with a lot of provacative content, but that was stopped with the formation of the comics code, which was dumped by all major publishers in the 70s. (Might be wrong on that date)

[bosssmiley]

I smell a "Death of Superman" myself. Kill a character off for pseudo-edgy 'socio-political commentary' cachet, then resurrect him a couple of years down the line and ride the wave of popular revival.

Isn't there supposed to be an "Avengers" movie coming out two years hence? Don't expect Marvel to miss that particular marketing opportunity...

[Moogle0119]

Even prior to the Avengers movie there's supposed to be a Captain America movie coming out before that. I can definitely see Marvel bringing back Captain America a few months right before the movie is released.

I can't imagine people coming out of the movie who are suddenly hooked to Captain America finding out that the hero they just saw died a few years earlier in the comic books. At the same time, those who are interested in the comics won't want to go see a movie about a superhero that's already dead.

[sikyon]

Even prior to the Avengers movie there's supposed to be a Captain America movie coming out before that. I can definitely see Marvel bringing back Captain America a few months right before the movie is released.

I can't imagine people coming out of the movie who are suddenly hooked to Captain America finding out that the hero they just saw died a few years earlier in the comic books. At the same time, those who are interested in the comics won't want to go see a movie about a superhero that's already dead.

Cap pretty much IS the avengers, I doubt there will be a movie unless it's set in WWII.


In universe the marvelites have no easy way to cure death.

The hand/cosmic cube/infinity gauntlet/etc.

[Gavin Sage]

Is there something I'm not getting here? Because I can see no reason why they don't just raise Captain America from the dead.

Because it is the BEST book Marvel is producing right now. Or close too at any rate.


How many times has Jean Grey died?

She died at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga and at the end of the Planet X arc. She is still dead so as far as I'm concerned that leaves her with a grand total of 1 death. And there were several years inbetween her death and resurrection the first time. So where this revolving door to the afterlife notion comes from I cannot fathom.


How many times has Hawkeye?

Once.


And don't get me started on Wolverine.

Who power makes it very hard to kill him anyways, and as such has all of zero deaths as far as I know. Which seems apropriate for a guy with indestructible bones and regeneration. So what does this have to do with comic book death to begin with.