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ShadowSiege
2008-05-09, 01:56 AM
Original article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20080509a


May and Beyond

Bart Carroll

Hi folks,

Here we are, less than a month away now from the release of 4th Edition -- so without further ado, let's jump straight into the products and content that will be coming out in support of the new edition!
4th Edition Demos

A repeat reminder! If you didn't have a chance to hit D&D Experience and try out 4th Edition for yourself, here's good news: The product demonstration team here at Wizards of the Coast is planning a series of 4th Edition sessions at your local gaming store. Dates are everywhere between March and May, so check out the list of participating locations here (and keep checking -- this list is updated periodically).
May: H1 Keep on the Shadowfell

Welcome to the Dungeons & Dragons game! You hold the first published adventure using the 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons rules, suitable for entertaining your friends for hours with brave deeds and harrowing perils. You, the Dungeon Master, and your friends can explore dungeons, banter with villains, and defeat vicious monsters with sword, spell, and prayer. Together, the player characters can work to thwart the insidious plot of an unholy cult, winning great treasure and a heroic reputation.

So begins H1 Keep on the Shadowfell, our first officially published adventure for, and herald of, 4th Edition! Designed by Bruce Cordell and Mike Mearls (whose interview can be read here, Keep on the Shadowfell pits adventurers against a cult of Orcus, which seeks to open a rift to the Shadowfell and launch further atrocities against the world at large! For most parties, the adventure starts in the idyllic village of Winterhaven:

Winterhaven
Village, Population 977
The rutted King's Road leads to the foot of a broad hill that holds the walled village of Winterhaven. The village is nestled in the southern foothills of the Cairngorm Peaks. The walls are weathered stone topped by defensive palisades. Small thatched homes stand around Winterhaven, each fronting a small piece of farmland or pasture. Beyond the farms to the west and south lie dark woods, and to the north, tall mountain peaks.

From there, it's probably no large reveal that the PCs soon find themselves on the road to the Shadowfell Keep, which is avoided by the people of Winterhaven "because all ancient ruins have a disturbing feeling about them, a feeling composed of lingering memories and unknown mysteries. Some say the place is haunted. Others fear the rumors of goblinoids using the place as a lair."

Take a look at the keep as it is described in the adventure:

Approaching the Keep

The road to Shadowfell Keep is arduous. Since the keep's destruction, few travelers use the road and no one bothers to maintain the path. The road is overgrown with grass, ferns, and small trees. The keep isn't in any better shape. Evidence of its destruction can be seen as you approach the derelict ruins. Read or paraphrase the following when the adventurers come within sight of the ruined keep:

Ahead, the narrow track widens into a clearing. Great piles of shattered stone blocks and scorched timbers dominate the clearing, sprawling out from its center to the edge of the woods. No plants grow among the ruins or within the clearing. The ground is bare dirt, and although the forest has begun to reclaim the path leading here, it has not intruded into the ruins of Shadowfell Keep.

Yet clearly someone has tampered with the ruins. In the center of the debris, stone blocks and timbers have been gathered into a pile. Someone has cleared a path through the rubble and pulled aside the wreckage to reveal a stone staircase. The staircase descends into darkness.

The Real Story
The legends of the Keep on the Shadowfell are known to only a handful of sages and scholars in this age of darkness. The truth is more tragic . . .

We won't reveal too much more about the adventure; we'd rather it unfold for you and your players. But we can provide a quick look at some of the art and maps from the keep (including one encounter that nearly killed Garret Farwhere, my own playtest adventurer trying to make his way through), and wish good luck to anyone daring cross its ruinous threshold!
June: Player's Handbook

(Sara Girard with actual core rulebooks in hand!)

We promised previews for 4th Edition's core rulebooks every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday leading up to the launch, and here's what we've showcased so far for the Player's Handbook:

* 04/16: Tiers
* 04/21: The Warlord, with Rich Baker
* 04/23: Paragon Paths, with Julia Martin
* 04/25: Powers, with Logan Bonner
* 04/30: Multiclassing, with Mike Mearls
* 05/07: Weapons, with Chris Sims

Since we wouldn't want to leave you empty-handed for the Player's Handbook today, and as many folks have been clamoring for a look at the warlord's at-will powers, we wanted to provide you with a couple:
Commander's Strike
Warlord Attack 1
With a shout, you command an ally to attack.
At-WillMartial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: An ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack against the target
Hit: Ally's basic attack damage + your Intelligence modifier.

Wolf Pack Tactics
Warlord Attack 1
Step by step, you and your friends surround the enemy.
At-WillMartial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Special: Before you attack, you let one ally adjacent to either you or the target shift 1 square as a free action.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.
June: Dungeon Master's Guide

Bill Slavicsek recently discussed skill challenges in his preview article, so we wanted to expand the challenges your party may face with a look at traps and hazards. From the DMG:





One wrong step in an ancient tomb triggers a series of scything blades that cleave through armor and bone. The seemingly innocuous vines that hang over a cave entrance grasp and choke at anyone foolish enough to push through them. A narrow stone bridge leads over a pit filled with hissing, sputtering acid. In the D&D game, monsters are only one of many challenges that adventurers face.

If it can hurt the party, but it isn't a monster, it's either a trap or a hazard.
Trap or Hazard?

What's the difference between a trap and a hazard? Traps are constructed with the intent to damage, harry, or impede intruders. Hazards are natural or supernatural in origin, but typically lack the malicious intent of a trap. Though both feature similar risks, a pit covered with a goblin-constructed false floor is a trap, while a deep chasm between two sections of a troglodyte cave constitutes a hazard.

Traps tend to be hidden, and their danger is apparent only when they are discovered with keen senses or a misplaced step. The danger of a hazard is usually out in the open, and its challenge determined by the senses (sometimes far too late) or deduced by those knowledgeable of the hazard's environs.

The common link between traps and hazards revolves around peril -- both to adventurers and monsters. Because of this similarity, traps and hazards feature similar rules, conventions, and presentations.

And, here are three traps for your perusal:
Whirling Blades
Level 5 Obstacle
Trap
XP 200
Blades rise out of hidden compartments and spin wildly across the chamber.
Trap: A whirling blades contraption emerges and spins like a top, moving its speed in a random direction and attacking each round.
Perception
DC 22: The character notices trigger plates around the chamber.
DC 27: The character notices the hidden control panel.
Initiative +7 Speed 4
Trigger
When a character moves into a trigger square, the whirling blades contraption emerges and attacks.
Attack
Standard Action Close burst 1
Targets: All creatures in burst
Attack: +10 vs. AC
Hit: 3d8+3 damage
Countermeasures
A character can engage in a skill challenge to deactivate the control panel. DC 22 Thievery. Complexity 2 (6 successes before 3 failures). Success disables the trap. Failure causes the whirling blades to act twice in the round (roll a second initiative for the trap).
A character can attack the whirling blades contraption (AC 16, other defenses 13; hp 55; resist 5 all) or the control panel (AC 14, other defenses 11; hp 35; resist 5 all). Destroying either disables the entire trap.

Flame Jet
Level 8 Blaster
Trap
XP 350
Two hidden nozzles let loose a blast of flame.
Trap: When the trap is triggered, two hidden nozzles in the walls attack each round on their initiative.
Perception
DC 24: The character notices the nozzles.
DC 28: The character notices the control panel on the far side of the room.
Initiative +5
Trigger
When a character enters the blast area of one of the flame jets, it makes its first attack as an immediate reaction. It then rolls initiative, attacking each round.
Attack
Immediate Reaction or Standard Action Close blast 3
Targets: All creatures in blast
Attack: +11 vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d8+4 fire damage and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).
Miss: Half damage, no ongoing damage.
Countermeasures
An adjacent character can disable one flame jet with a DC 24 Thievery check.
A character can engage in a skill challenge to deactivate the control panel. DC 28 Thievery. Complexity 1 (4 successes before 2 failures). Success disables the trap. Failure causes the control panel to explode (close blast 3, 3d8 + 4 damage to all creatures in blast) and the trap remains active.
Upgrade to Elite (700 XP)
Increase the Perception and Thievery checks by 2.
Increase the number of nozzles to 6, or to 3 with a larger area of close blast 5.


Soul Gem
Level 26 Solo Blaster
Trap
XP 45,000
A strange, many-faceted gem in the center of the chamber suddenly emits blasts of blinding light.
Trap: This fist-sized cut crystal is often embedded in a statue or placed on a pedestal in the center of a room. When a creature steps within 5 squares of the soul gem, it starts emitting blasts of radiant power from its many facets.
Perception
DC 29: The character spots the strange gem.
Additional Skill: Arcana
DC 33: The character recognizes the soul gem.
Initiative +8
Trigger
When a creature moves within 5 squares of the soul gem, it rolls initiative and attacks.
Attack
Standard Action Close blast 5
Targets: All creatures in blast
Attack: +29 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 4d10 + 5 radiant damage and ongoing 5 radiant damage and stunned (save ends).
Aftereffect of stun: Dazed (save ends).
Special: Each round, roll 1d8 to determine the direction of the blast. The blast is centered on one square of the gem's space, starting with the north square and moving clockwise around the gem's space.
Countermeasures
A character can engage in a skill challenge to detach the soul gem from its socket and thereby disable it. DC 37 Thievery. Complexity 1 (4 successes before 2 failures). Success detaches the gem and disables the trap. Failure causes the gem to explode (close burst 8, 4d10 + 5 radiant damage and stunned (save ends) to all creatures in burst).
A character can attack the gem (AC 33, other defenses 29; hp 100; resist 15 all). When reduced to 0 hit points, the gem explodes in a close burst 8, as above. Destroying the gem disables the trap.

June: Monster Manual

This week we wanted to take a look at monster variants within the Monster Manual... and we asked Mike Mearls to walk us through the development process. Here's what he had to say:

If you've been playing D&D since the old days, the new Monster Manual looks like a mutant cross between the 1E or 3E version and the 2E Monstrous Compendium. Each monster entry takes up at least a page, but those entries have multiple stat blocks. You have to do some hunting to find a monster that has one, lonely stat block in its entry (balhannoth, we're looking at you!).

Back when we did 3.5's Monster Manual IV, we decided that giving gamers a single, level 1 warrior for a humanoid monster was pretty lame. DMs were stuck generating stat blocks for, well, almost everything. Even nonhumanoids suffered a bit. If you liked carrion crawlers, you had a narrow window of opportunity to use them before they became too weak to face the party.

For 4th Edition, we decided to pack as many examples or variations on a monster as possible into each entry. We don't give you a 1st-level warrior in the drow entry, but an arachnomancer, a blademaster, a priest, and that typical warrior. Hopefully, that lets you spend time creating your drow NPCs and villains. The Monster Manual thus covers the basic "job functions" of the drow.

For more monstrous monsters, we tried to include at least one variation on an existing beast, like the stormrage shambler and its shambling mound cousin, or a variant that occupied the next tier up. If you like carrion crawlers as dungeon scavengers, you can throw the level 17 Huge version at the party later on in their careers. The classic D&D monsters are classics for a reason, and with the game covering levels 1 to 30, we wanted DMs to use the most popular monsters across an entire campaign.

The key to making this design work was to make the variations interesting and fun. At one point, the humanoid variants were slated as humanoids with class levels. However, we didn't see that as a useful tool for DMs. It's much easier to make NPC humanoids in 4th Edition, and if we aren't saving the DM time, why bother doing something that you can do with a few spare minutes before a game session? Furthermore, we wanted our humanoids to have unique, colorful traits, tactics, and abilities. We designed the class lists to make ranger and warlock characters feel cool, rather than reflect what makes fighting orcs different from fighting gnolls. By taking a "build it from scratch" approach, we could give unique, special abilities to the humanoids. That way, the gnolls, orcs, or whatever use tactics and abilities unique to them.

The designed humanoid monsters were a big hit in playtesting, with a bugbear strangler scoring the first confirmed character kill in 4E. They kept players on their toes. Hopefully, they'll have your group never 100% sure what that mangy, half-mummified gnoll priest is going to do next. . . .

For a look at monster variants, we present the orc -- from Drudge Minion to Chieftain!

* Orcs PDF (1.3 MB zipped PDF file)

D&D Insider

So what else is on the docket, in terms of previews? With a month to go, here's the remaining schedule; topics are subject to change, but rest assured we will continue to follow the Monday, Wednesday, and Friday schedule.

* Mon 05/12: Epic Destinies (PH), Giants (MM)
* Wed 05/14: Economy (DMG), Archons (MM)
* Fri 05/16: Magic Items (DMG), Quests (DMG)

* Mon 05/19: Minions (MM)
* Wed 05/21: Undead (MM)
* Fri 05/23: Magic Weapons (PH), Swarms (MM)

* Mon 05/26: Fallcrest (DMG)
* Wed 05/28: Rituals (PH)
* Fri 05/30: Humans as Monsters (MM)
* Mon 06/02: Alignment (PH)

July: H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth

Finally, before we sign off on this month's preview-heavy previews, let's take a quick look beyond the big month of June and venture onto the topic of the next adventure coming out for 4th Edition. In July, the H series continues, taking adventurers of levels 4-6 to Thunderspire Mountain.

Beneath the stormy peak of Thunderspire Mountain lies the labyrinth, an ancient, ruined minotaur city. For over two decades, an order of wizards called the Mages of Saruun has governed the labyrinth's upper levels, creating a safe haven called the Seven-Pillared Hall where surface-dwellers and underground denizens can meet to trade. Humans, halflings, dwarves, duergar, goblins, orcs, troglodytes, and others come to the hall to barter under the watchful eyes of the Mages of Saruun and their towering minotaur constructs.

The mages have one rule in the Seven-Pillared Hall: Maintain the peace. Visitors who leave the safety of the hall and venture into the labyrinth go at their own risk, for in the darkness of the labyrinth dwell foul creatures, eager for the chance to capture or kill foolhardy explorers.

About the Author

Bart Carroll is loathsome beyond description and has no redeeming features. His body resembles that of a huge, bloated buffalo and gives off an offensive odor. The author's neck is long and thin, and perched atop it is a big head uglier than that of a warthog. His legs are thick and stumpy, much like a hippopotamus. The author's tail is strong and snakey, however, and moves with amazing swiftness to strike enemies.


©1995-2008 Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All Rights Reserved.


Specific previews include (for the TL;DR crowd):
-At-will warlord powers
-More example traps
-An orc excerpt from the MM (.pdf format)

Charity
2008-05-09, 02:09 AM
Ooo so very much crunch.


The orcs have an interesting slant to them a sort of free healing surge when bloodied.
Looking at the minions, I was thinking, aside from being hard to hit minions that are >> higher level than the party do seem to be some nice easy xp, I wouldn't put a lot of them in without at least a standard monster or two.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-09, 02:24 AM
The orcs have an interesting slant to them a sort of free healing surge when bloodied.
Looking at the minions, I was thinking, aside from being hard to hit minions that are >> higher level than the party do seem to be some nice easy xp, I wouldn't put a lot of them in without at least a standard monster or two.

I noticed the healing surge as well. It helps prolong the fight, letting the orcs wear the party down further, and the final strike ability that some of them have is appropriate for orcs. As for the minions, they are intended to help "fill out" the combat with a large number of enemies without risking a TPK. They're not meant to be used alone from what I recall, but rather you sub 4 of them in for 1 standard monster.

The traps look fairly interesting, and a good step forward from the encounter traps of 3.5 (which are much better still than the "LOL ARROW IN THE FACE" traps of the DMG)

Aside: Skill challenges can now be pinned down to definitely the following formula:
# of Successes = 2 x failures (of course we knew this already), and
# of Failures = 1 + complexity.

The possibility of catastrophe makes the skill challenges a bit of a gambit, but one that could save the party a lot of pain and suffering.

horseboy
2008-05-09, 02:38 AM
Does anyone else see someone in their group using commander's shout to shout: "Pikachu! I choose you!" :smallamused:

Kurald Galain
2008-05-09, 02:53 AM
Why does it take a DC 29 check to spot a fist-sized gem? :smallbiggrin:

Also, I think I spotted (heh) one flaw in the Warlord class: it assumes that the other characters accept him has their leader and are willing to cooperate.


With a shout, you command an ally to attack.

While I'm sure it's mechanically sound, I've played and DM'ed for a few characters that, when a party member would command them to strike at some particular enemy, would flat-out refuse and either attack something else, or start a "you're not the boss of me" argument in mid-combat.

But the mechanics don't even allow for the other character to refuse - it states "an ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack". If you're playing a strategic board game, it makes sense to always want to take the strategically superior option. If you're playing a roleplaying game, it makes sense to be able to not do that, for reasons of character.

Abardam
2008-05-09, 02:58 AM
Eh. You can always choose not to be an "ally", anyway.

e: Bloodrager is freaking awesome.

bosssmiley
2008-05-09, 04:29 AM
Like the traps. A lot. they seem much more dynamic than the 3rd Ed. style. May just be ganking the 4th format to save squabbling with the trapspringers in current game.

The company firewall hates me and will not let me see the tasty, tasty Orcish goodness though. :smallmad:

@Kurald: I think it's a DC29 check to see that the shiny think is trapped.

Xefas
2008-05-09, 04:41 AM
With a shout, you command an ally to attack.
While I'm sure it's mechanically sound...

This, I feel, is kind of important. If an At-Will power is mechanically sound for making someone else attack, then maybe this will be the base for an Animal Companion class at some point?

Rutee
2008-05-09, 04:55 AM
But the mechanics don't even allow for the other character to refuse - it states "an ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack". If you're playing a strategic board game, it makes sense to always want to take the strategically superior option. If you're playing a roleplaying game, it makes sense to be able to not do that, for reasons of character.

He doesn't need to be a leader. He just needs to be Nakama (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Nakama).

Now that said, /we already have this/, with Marshal and White Raven Tactics. I think it's assumed at some point that your character can opt to be stupid or noncooperative, and that the powers don't work without it.

Oh, and the traps annoy the hell out of me. What happened to stuff like the huge rock, that had disable methods besides smack it and be a thief?

Charity
2008-05-09, 05:27 AM
Like the traps. A lot. they seem much more dynamic than the 3rd Ed. style. May just be ganking the 4th format to save squabbling with the trapspringers in current game.

The company firewall hates me and will not let me see the tasty, tasty Orcish goodness though. :smallmad:

@Kurald: I think it's a DC29 check to see that the shiny think is trapped.

Who do you love bossman?

ORCS WORSHIP GRUUMSH, THE ONE-EYED GOD OF SLAUGHTER,
and are savage, bloodthirsty marauders. They plague the
civilized races of the world and also fight among themselves
for scraps of food and treasure. They love close combat and
plunge furiously into the thick of battle, giving no thought to
retreat or surrender.

Within what passes for orc society, there are orcs that fill
special roles. Eyes of Gruumsh are orcs with a special connec-
tion to their fierce god. They offer sacrifices, read omens, and
advise the tribe’s chieftain of Gruumsh’s will. Orc bloodragers
are tribal champions feared for their strength and ferocity,
and they also make excellent subchiefs or bodyguards.

Orcs often fight alongside ogres, and they can be coerced
or bullied into serving any dark overlord or wicked monster
powerful enough to command their obedience.

Orc Drudge Level 4 Minion
Medium natural humanoid XP 44
Initiative +0 Senses Perception +0; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 16; Fortitude 15, Refl ex 12, Will 12
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Club (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+9 vs. AC; 5 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Str 16 (+3) Dex 10 (+0) Wis 10 (+0)
Con 14 (+2) Int 8 (–1) Cha 9 (–1)
Equipment hide armor, club
Orc Drudge Tactics
Orc minions have no particular sense of honor and simply
swarm around a foe and hack it to death. Orc drudges usually
begin a fight by charging (they gain extra speed in the charge).

Orc Warrior Level 9 Minion
Medium natural humanoid XP 100
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 21; Fortitude 19, Refl ex 16, Will 16
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Battleaxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+14 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Str 17 (+6) Dex 11 (+3) Wis 10 (+3)
Con 15 (+5) Int 8 (+2) Cha 9 (+2)
Equipment leather armor, light shield, battleaxe
Orc Warrior Tactics
The orc warrior charges into battle, cutting down its enemies
with its battleaxe.

Orc Raider Level 3 Skirmisher
Medium natural humanoid XP 150
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +1; low-light vision
HP 46; Bloodied 23; see also warrior’s surge
AC 17; Fortitude 15, Refl ex 14, Will 12
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+8 vs. AC; 1d12 + 3 damage (crit 1d12 + 15).
Handaxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
Ranged 5/10; +7 vs. AC; 1d6 + 3 damage; see also killer’s eye.
Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc raider makes a melee basic attack and regains 11 hit
points.
Killer’s Eye
When making a ranged attack, the orc raider ignores cover and
concealment (but not total concealment) if the target is within 5
squares of it.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +8, Intimidate +5
Str 17 (+4) Dex 15 (+3) Wis 10 (+1)
Con 14 (+3) Int 8 (+0) Cha 9 (+0)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe, 4 handaxes
Orc Raider Tactics
The orc raider hurls handaxes until it runs out of axes or until
its enemies close to melee, at which point it draws its greataxe.

Orc Berserker Level 4 Brute
Medium natural humanoid XP 175
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +2; low-light vision
HP 66; Bloodied 33; see also warrior’s surge
AC 15; Fortitude 17, Refl ex 13, Will 12
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+8 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17).
Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc berserker makes a melee basic attack and regains 16 hit
points.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Intimidate +6
Str 20 (+7) Dex 13 (+3) Wis 10 (+2)
Con 16 (+5) Int 8 (+1) Cha 9 (+1)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe
Orc Berserker Tactics
The fierce berserker wades recklessly into battle and would
rather die than retreat.

Orc Eye of Gruumsh Level 5 Controller (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid XP 200
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
Wrath of Gruumsh aura 10; orcs in the aura can use death strike
(see below).
HP 64; Bloodied 32; see also warrior’s surge and death strike
AC 19; Fortitude 17, Refl ex 14, Will 15
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Spear (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+10 vs. AC; 1d8 + 3 damage.
Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The eye of Gruumsh makes a melee basic attack and regains 16
hit points.
Death Strike (when reduced to 0 hit points)
The orc makes a melee basic attack.
Eye of Wrath (minor; at-will) ✦ Fear
Ranged 5; +8 vs. Will; the target takes a –4 penalty to AC (save
ends).
Swift Arm of Destruction (standard; recharge ⚄ ⚅ ) ✦ Healing
Ranged 5; one orc within range makes a melee basic attack (as a
free action) and regains 15 hit points on a hit or 5 hit points on a
miss.
Chaos Hammer (standard; encounter) ✦ Force
Area burst 1 within 10; +8 vs. Refl ex; 2d6 + 3 force damage, and
the target is knocked prone. Miss: Half damage, and the target is
not knocked prone.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Intimidate +10, Religion +7
Str 17 (+5) Dex 14 (+4) Wis 12 (+3)
Con 16 (+5) Int 11 (+2) Cha 17 (+5)
Equipment leather armor, fur cloak, spear
Orc Eye of Gruumsh Tactics
This orc stays within 10 squares of its allies so that they ben-
efit from its aura. Unless it has an enemy it can attack with
its spear, the eye of Gruumsh uses its eye of wrath up to three
times in a round to make its foes more vulnerable to attacks,
and then uses swift arm of destruction to help keep its allies
in the fight. If it sees multiple enemies grouped together, it
pounds them with chaos hammer.

Orc Bloodrager Level 7 Elite Brute
Medium natural humanoid XP 600
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 194; Bloodied 97; see also warrior’s surge
AC 21; Fortitude 22, Refl ex 19, Will 17
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Action Points 1
Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+11 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17); see also blood for
blood.
Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc bloodrager makes a melee basic attack and regains 48
hit points.
Wounded Retaliation (immediate reaction, when hit by an
adjacent enemy; at-will)
The orc bloodrager makes a melee basic attack against the
enemy.
Blood for Blood ✦ Healing, Weapon
When it hits a bloodied enemy, the orc bloodrager deals an extra
5 damage and regains 10 hit points.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +11, Intimidate +8
Str 20 (+8) Dex 15 (+5) Wis 11 (+3)
Con 17 (+6) Int 9 (+2) Cha 10 (+3)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe
Orc Bloodrager Tactics
The orc bloodrager charges into battle and spends its action
point to make an extra attack following its charge attack.
When it is hit by an adjacent enemy, it uses wounded retaliation.

Orc Chieftain Level 8 Elite Brute (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid XP 700
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
Blood of the Enemy aura 5; bloodied allies in the aura deal an extra
2 damage with melee attacks.
HP 216; Bloodied 108; see also warrior’s surge
AC 22; Fortitude 22, Refl ex 19, Will 21
Saving Throws +2
Speed 5 (7 while charging)
Action Points 1
Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦Weapon
+11 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17).
Inspire Ferocity (immediate reaction, when an ally within range
drops to 0 hit points; recharge ⚄ ⚅ )
Ranged 10; the ally makes a melee basic attack.
Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc chieftain makes a melee basic attack and regains 54 hit
points.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +12, Intimidate +13
Str 20 (+9) Dex 14 (+6) Wis 12 (+5)
Con 18 (+8) Int 10 (+4) Cha 19 (+8)
Equipment chainmail, greataxe
Orc Chieftain Tactics
The orc chieftain stays close to its allies so that they can take
advantage of its blood of the enemy aura and its inspire ferocity
power.

and the fluff
Orc Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful
Nature check.
DC 15: Orcs favor hills and mountains, places pocked
by caverns easily turned into defensible lairs. Bloodthirsty
marauders and cannibals, orcs venerate Gruumsh and
thereby delight in slaughter and destruction.
Orcs don’t build settlements of their own, instead improv-
ing existing shelters with crude fortifications. They prefer to
settle in natural caves or structures abandoned by other, more
skillful races. Orcs can manage simple ironwork and stone-
work, but they are lazy and grasping, preferring to take by
force the tools, weapons, and goods other folk make.
DC 20: Orcs band together into loose tribal associations.
The strongest individual in a tribe leads as a despotic chief-
tain. Individual bands within a tribe might wander far from
their native lands, but they still recognize orcs from the same
tribe as kin.
DC 25: Orcs often demonstrate their faith in Gruumsh by
gouging out one of their eyes and offering it as a sacrifice to
their one-eyed god.
According to myth, Corellon shot out Gruumsh’s eye with
an arrow. For this reason, orcs hold a special hatred for elves
and eladrin.
Encounter Groups
Orc tribes use ogres and trolls as muscle for war and labor.
They sometimes keep boars, drakes, and other beasts as pets.
Level 4 Encounter (XP 900)
✦ 2 orc raiders (level 3 skirmisher)
✦ 2 orc berserkers (level 4 brute)
✦ 1 dire boar (level 6 brute)
Level 6 Encounter (XP 1,350)
✦ 1 orc eye of Gruumsh (level 5 controller)
✦ 2 orc berserkers (level 4 brute)
✦ 4 orc warriors (level 9 minion)
✦ 2 dire wolves (level 5 skirmisher)
Level 9 Encounter (XP 2,150)
✦ 1 orc chieftain (level 8 elite brute)
✦ 5 orc warriors (level 9 minion)
✦ 1 dire boar (level 6 brute)
✦ 2 ogre skirmishers (level 8 skirmisher)
Level 10 Encounter (XP 2,650)
✦ 2 orc bloodragers (level 7 elite brute)
✦ 1 bloodspike behemoth (level 9 brute)
✦ 1 ogre skirmisher (level 8 skirmisher)
✦ 1 oni night haunter (level 8 elite controller)

yeah i love me too.

KIDS
2008-05-09, 05:45 AM
I'm "meh" on most things here, and warlord powers are nice but I can't really imagine them in actual (OOC-ly) play, but traps blew my mind off. That's such a revolution, and in a very good sense, I can't wait to use them!

Kurald Galain
2008-05-09, 06:12 AM
@Kurald: I think it's a DC29 check to see that the shiny think is trapped.

I should hope so, but it explicitly says "DC 29: The character spots the strange gem." (which, we know, is fist-sized and on a pedestal)



Now that said, /we already have this/, with Marshal and White Raven Tactics.
Yeah, but WRT it's a single maneuver in an optional discipline in a single relatively new alternative system rulebook that far from everybody uses; and marshals don't seem to see all that much use period, judged by these forums. What we're getting now is a core class that, from the very beginning relies on doing exactly this pretty much all the time. That's a big difference. You're essentially saying that 1 equal to 100 in that both are non-zero.



I think it's assumed at some point that your character can opt to be stupid or noncooperative, and that the powers don't work without it.
But I bet you a beer that it doesn't actually say so anywhere in the player's handbook, and that within a week after the release of 4E the forum will have a flame war about it. :smalltongue:

Dhavaer
2008-05-09, 06:53 AM
Huh. Orcs look a lot higher level than they used to be. I can't say I was expecting that.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-09, 07:13 AM
That's a delicious preview day.

Nom. Nom. Nom.

ORCS!

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080509_114834_0.jpg

Xefas
2008-05-09, 07:16 AM
Huh. Orcs look a lot higher level than they used to be. I can't say I was expecting that.

Keep in mind that a single level of monster has a much broader range of use now. Assuming a 4 or 5 member party, the Bloodrager (level 7 Elite Brute) could probably be used as a boss encounter as early as 1st or 2nd level (it's worth less than Nightscale, for instance, and that was a defeatable 1st level boss), and remains useful as part of an encounter all the way up to 10th or 11th level without any adjustments.

bosssmiley
2008-05-09, 07:30 AM
Who do you love bossman?

yeah i love me too.

Cheers old son. :smallbiggrin:

Hmmm. The 1 HP minion thing looks interesting. Seems to reflect the old cinematic gaming trope of 'one solid hit = mook go *thud*'. As a swashbuckler I approve; the uncredited peons should die in droves beneath the flashing blades of the heroes. It is necessary for our pleasure.

I really like the Eye of Gruumsh's Deathstrike aura. It gets across the big green berserker feel that Orcs should have when the Eye of He Who Watches is upon them.
"Me die, but take puny pinkskin with me. Make Mom proud and get seat at top table in Orc Valhalla" :thog:

The mechanics of the Warrior's Surge (make attack, heal self) still seems odd to me though. I know, I know. It's a wholy logical extension of the system based on appropriate tropes and presaged in some of the 3.5 TOB stuff; but I can't get past the image of the Chieftain or Bloodrager stopping mid-fight to whack himself in the head with an axe until he feels better. :smallconfused:

...

216hp on an Orc? Whaaaaaaa?!?! I mean, I remember a time when /Demogorgon/ didn't have that many! Truly the ways of this brave new world of 4th Ed. are peculiar. :smalleek:

Thane of Fife
2008-05-09, 08:00 AM
I should hope so, but it explicitly says "DC 29: The character spots the strange gem." (which, we know, is fist-sized and on a pedestal)

That's 'cause it's a Perception check. Spotting the gem is only DC 10, but hearing it is DC 47. They've just averaged the two together. :smalltongue:

Charity
2008-05-09, 08:01 AM
I think it's very much a hp = morale rather than hp = damage type of thing with 4e.
Heck HP's have always been a sort of ill defined cocktail of the two anyhow.
I figure you're not actually scratched until you get to a bloodied state.

Yeah that eye of grumsh is one nasty nasty orc to have in the backranks of the greenies.

Tingel
2008-05-09, 08:19 AM
What do the numbers in brackets behind the six primary stats mean?

And does anyone know how exactly recharging standard powers with dice works? (Example: the Eye of Gruumsh's Swift Arm of Destruction)

SamTheCleric
2008-05-09, 08:22 AM
If a Power says Recharge: X, X is the number that you must roll or roll greater than to recharge.

Recharge 5, Roll a d6 and the power recharges on a 5 or 6.

Tingel
2008-05-09, 08:26 AM
If that is the case, then why does the Swift Arm of Destruction list 5 and 6? According to your answer the 5 would suffice. Or does the orc need to role two d6, and only if one shows a 6 and the other one shows 5+ the power is recharged?

Also: When does the orc roll those recharge dice? Does attempting to recharge require an action?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-09, 08:28 AM
I'm not sure of the exact mechanics...

They may have changed it from listing a number to just listing the die rolls needed (a 5 or a 6)... again, making it clearer.

You roll for recharge at the start of your turn and it doesn't require an action (as far as I can tell)

Xefas
2008-05-09, 08:28 AM
If that is the case, then why does the Swift Arm of Destruction list 5 and 6? According to your answer the 5 would suffice. Or does the orc need to role two d6, and only if one shows a 6 and the other one shows 5+ the power is recharged?

Also: When does the orc roll those recharge dice? Does attempting to recharge require an action?

The 6 is just extra.

The way I've heard it is that at the end of the monster's turn, it rolls 1d6. Any of its abilities that have a recharge number less than or equal to the number rolled are recharged.

Tingel
2008-05-09, 08:31 AM
I see. Thanks, Sam and Xefas.

So does anyone know about those numbers in brackets behind the primary stats?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-09, 08:37 AM
I can only assume it's the ability modifier. But it doesnt make much sense, cause the CHA 9 has a +2 mod.... so no telling how it works out till I get the book in my hand.

Myshlaevsky
2008-05-09, 08:49 AM
I can only assume it's the ability modifier. But it doesnt make much sense, cause the CHA 9 has a +2 mod.... so no telling how it works out till I get the book in my hand.

The same CHA also has a +0 bonus on another orc. I believe you get an ability bonus for all stats which scales with level.

Charity
2008-05-09, 08:55 AM
All atributes get +1 / 2 levels to apply to ability checks and skills.

1st 9 = -1
3rd 9 = 0
5th 9 = +1
7th 9 = +2
9th 9 = +3
etc
Also as far as I know minions are 3 levels behind for stat bonuses or some such thing, just to add to the confusion.
Looky here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221806) for as good a reference as I've found

SamTheCleric
2008-05-09, 08:58 AM
Wait... someone is using Math and Logic against me... must defend... with...

SLAAD!

http://www.theorderofinitiative.co.uk/acatalog/53Bloodwar.jpg

Myshlaevsky
2008-05-09, 09:00 AM
Hahahaha. Doesn't apply to damage either, I don't think.

I have to say, the orc preview is probably the best one we've seen so far. I'm really looking forward to 4e based on this. It'll be a different game, but I don't think it'll be a worse one.

Just have to rip out the tielfing name page, that's all... :smalltongue:

Morty
2008-05-09, 09:01 AM
If those are all orcs we'll see, I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of any common orcish "grunt" who isn't 1 HP minion. But I'm not too fond of this "minion" thing in any case except statting out noncombatants attempting to fight anyway. Luckily, they promise it'll be easy to stat out monsters for ourselves.
Orcish fluff is nothing new really, once more it's a litany of how orcs are Eeevil and therefore worthy of being killed for XP.
Also, I have a very bad feeling about the "Humans as monsters" article.

Vortling
2008-05-09, 09:11 AM
Overall more 'meh'.

I still don't see the point of lore checks. They seem to be even less useful in 4e than they were in 3.5. At least in 3.5 you might get some useful information about the monster's combat ability. In 4e it's all useless fluff except for the vague 'tactics' part that you'll be able to figure out after the first round or two of combat. How are players supposed to behave with smart tactics if they can't gather any useful information about their enemies except by trial and error? Why don't lore checks reveal what 'powers' enemies have?

The traps section is disappointing. I like playing rogues but under the new 4e system I'd avoid traps completely, even as a rogue, unless the DM explicitly, directly, and arbitrarily railroaded me into disabling it. It just doesn't seem like a good deal to have to sit through a minimum of 4 rounds of the trap going off in my face. They also are missing ways for classes that don't have thievery on their list to participate in trap encounters. I know they have the option to smash at the trap in some cases, but there's nothing in the trap description that lets other characters participate outside of that.

Hopefully the full rules will have explanations that move these points from the 'annoying' category to the 'fun' category.

EvilElitest
2008-05-09, 09:15 AM
I'm confused about the orcs alignments actually. Does it mean always CE?
from
EE

RTGoodman
2008-05-09, 09:21 AM
But I bet you a beer that it doesn't actually say so anywhere in the player's handbook, and that within a week after the release of 4E the forum will have a flame war about it. :smalltongue:

Why wait? I say we go for it now! And thus, all you peoples are dumb! It says you command them to make an attack, so they have to do it. Gosh! Learn the RAW! :smallbiggrin:


Anyway, I like the traps (and for those of you fretting, I'm sure falling/rolling rocks and all the other classics will be there), but I'm not as confident about the orcs. They kind of seem all over the place - some things I really like, and some I just feel 'meh' about.

Xefas
2008-05-09, 09:32 AM
I'm confused about the orcs alignments actually. Does it mean always CE?
from
EE

I think it means "Orcs are defaulted to Chaotic Evil unless the DM decides that some or all of them aren't" just like in 3rd edition. Even if the statblock said "Usually X" (as opposed to Always X), the DM still had to specifically decide whether an individual of that race was X or not. If 51% of Orcs are Chaotic Evil, their default is still Chaotic Evil.

Sort of a suggestion, I imagine. Not like it matters, since there don't appear to be any/many effects that specifically target alignment in 4th edition.

Trog
2008-05-09, 11:02 AM
That's 'cause it's a Perception check. Spotting the gem is only DC 10, but hearing it is DC 47. They've just averaged the two together. :smalltongue:
Listen!!

...

Do you smell something?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-09, 11:15 AM
Listen!!

...

Do you smell something?

Hey! Epic level perception check! I think I ... feel something. It's faceted, and on a pedestal!

SamTheCleric
2008-05-09, 11:20 AM
Use the force, Scribe.

Also, I doubt the DC is to Spot the gem itself, but rather spotting the mechanism that the gem is atached to.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-09, 11:56 AM
I can see it now:

Fighter (Ackbar): Fan out! OOH SHINY GEM!
Rogue (Lando): I've got a bad feeling about this. WAIT! Don't touch it! It's...
Ackbar: *trap goes off* IT'S A TRAP!

kc0bbq
2008-05-09, 01:04 PM
The 6 is just extra.

The way I've heard it is that at the end of the monster's turn, it rolls 1d6. Any of its abilities that have a recharge number less than or equal to the number rolled are recharged.Nope, an ability recharges when the die roll exactly matches the values given. The idea is that not all abilities should always recharge at the same time.

If something lists 3,5 and something lists 5,6, on a roll of 5 both recharge. On a 3 or 6 only one does.

Dristin
2008-05-09, 01:59 PM
Does anyone know how the disabling of traps works. Do you have to get so many successful attempts before it is disabled? And are there a certain amount of failures that you can have before something else happens?

ShadowSiege
2008-05-09, 02:07 PM
Does anyone know how the disabling of traps works. Do you have to get so many successful attempts before it is disabled? And are there a certain amount of failures that you can have before something else happens?

If the trap has a skill challenge element to it, yes. If you can get (for a complexity 1 trap) 4 successes before 2 failures, you disable the trap. If you get the two failures before the 4 successes, it will either explode or go haywire in a bad way given the examples.

You can also disable individual parts of the trap without said risk.

Rutee
2008-05-09, 02:19 PM
Yeah, but WRT it's a single maneuver in an optional discipline in a single relatively new alternative system rulebook that far from everybody uses; and marshals don't seem to see all that much use period, judged by these forums. What we're getting now is a core class that, from the very beginning relies on doing exactly this pretty much all the time. That's a big difference. You're essentially saying that 1 equal to 100 in that both are non-zero.
Oh FFS. WR period, not just tactics. All of White Raven does this kinda stuff, and you're saying marshals don't count because they're not used much? Yeahno.



But I bet you a beer that it doesn't actually say so anywhere in the player's handbook, and that within a week after the release of 4E the forum will have a flame war about it. :smalltongue:

Oh, so you thought starting an argument about it by complaining was expedient, rather then applying common sense. "If my character doesn't want to obey an order, they don't have to".

Draz74
2008-05-09, 02:30 PM
Recharge abilities aren't "roll this number or higher to recharge this ability." They're just "roll this number (or one of these numbers) to recharge this ability."

There was a dragon previewed at some point that had two recharge abilities, a Recharge 4 6 power and a Recharge 5 6 power. So it rolls one recharge die every turn; a 4 recharges one power, a 5 recharges a different power, and a 6 recharges both.

Also the ability mods have been established for a while now. Strictly speaking, ability modifiers (e.g. when you're modifying a damage roll) are the same as in 3e. However, ability checks and untrained skill checks add 1/2 your level. Since these will be needed by the DM a lot more often than the 3e ability modifiers will, the stat blocks list ability modifiers with the 1/2 level already factored in. Minions must have a penalty to these ability/skill checks compared to other monsters/characters.

I do hope they clarify, somewhere in the rulebooks, exactly what an "ally" is (and an "enemy," etc.). I assume, though, that you never have to let a party member use a power on you if that power targets an "ally." There will be a lot more problems than just this one Warlord at-will power if these things aren't well defined (at least, among people who try to play strictly by the RAW).

I'm kind of disappointed with the trap previews. They're much better than 3e DMG traps, yes, but still. If you can make multiple Thievery checks at once in a skill challenge, than the "skill challenge" aspect of shutting off the traps isn't really any different from the old 3e system of "the trap depends on whether you make this one skill check or not." If you are limited to one Thievery check per round, as seems more likely, then it seems like these traps are awfully nasty for the poor monkey who's trying to disable them, being whacked by their damage round after round. Either way, I'm hoping most traps have Countermeasures other than "Thievery Check" and "whack it." And I hope Dungeoneering isn't a useless skill. (Until now, I was assuming it would have something to do with the "disable traps" type of task. Apparently not!) Now I'm quite curious what classes have access to Thievery as a trained skill. I hope Rangers do.

By contrast, I'm fairly pleased with the Orcs. Other than the inability to create your own Orc NPCs (which I'm assuming will still exist, just not in this excerpt). The "copy a Class" templates, though, had better be good. I want to make an Elite leader for a party of Orc Raiders with the Ranger template, and an Elite Witch-Doctor by applying the Warlock template to the Eye of Gruumush! Although just having stats for "orcs as characters" (which they've promised will exist, but which I would think would have been included in the excerpt! :smallannoyed:) would be a good start.

Good call to those who said that Half-Orcs were probably out of the PHB because WotC said, "Blizzard orcs are so popular and well-developed that we can't really compete with them without copying them, so we'll make ours as different as possible, even if it makes them a less important part of the game." This excerpt supports that direction. They're playing up the stupid, brutish, cannibalistic, irredeemable, gray-skinned archetype of orc in 4e. No sometimes-not-evil, shamanistic noble savage here! But it's interesting to see what they've done with that. Orcs who, in organized groups, are certainly not fodder for Level 2 adventurers -- in fact, they're kind of upper-level monsters as far as the Heroic Tier is concerned. ... but still easily manageable to Paragon Tier heroes.

I like complex, noble savage-type orcs if that's what a setting is based on. But for "Points of Light," I think I like what they're doing with the orcs. At least I like that they're being decisive about it, not making some wishy-washy hybrid of different orc concepts. (A good follow-up to the division of elves into woodsy types and magicy types!) That said, I hope not all the savage humanoids are as morally unambiguous as the orcs in Points of Light. Maybe kobolds are going to be lovable and not all-bad?

LiteYear
2008-05-09, 02:34 PM
I'm still unclear on how "complexity" factors in to these skill checks. From what I know, the skill level of the person against the DC is far, far more important. It is relatively easy to make skill checks harder by adjusting DCs instead of complexity.

Draz74
2008-05-09, 02:46 PM
I'm still unclear on how "complexity" factors in to these skill checks. From what I know, the skill level of the person against the DC is far, far more important. It is relatively easy to make skill checks harder by adjusting DCs instead of complexity.

Mainly seems to affect how long it takes to complete a skill challenge.

kc0bbq
2008-05-09, 03:57 PM
I do hope they clarify, somewhere in the rulebooks, exactly what an "ally" is (and an "enemy," etc.). I assume, though, that you never have to let a party member use a power on you if that power targets an "ally." There will be a lot more problems than just this one Warlord at-will power if these things aren't well defined (at least, among people who try to play strictly by the RAW).Why does it matter? It's not forcing the target to do anything with his actions, it's giving them a basic attack *now* using the warlord's action. "Hey, you, stabbity!" "I stabbity. You smart, I good stabbity."

Why would a party want someone around who isn't going to be a team player at a time when it's most needed? Especially when combat is now tactical.

horseboy
2008-05-09, 04:03 PM
Warlords have a power that let you say "Nice hit, Moose, do it again!" and people are expected to complain about it? Talk about bitching about a blow job.
:smallannoyed:

Rutee
2008-05-09, 04:13 PM
Why would a party want someone around who isn't going to be a team player at a time when it's most needed? Especially when combat is now tactical.

I'm not clear on that, but I'm sure someone can come up with a good reason (Up to and including not actually having respect for the warlord, ICly). I just boggle at the lack of common sense. Yes, you can in fact refuse an order.

LiteYear
2008-05-09, 04:17 PM
Mainly seems to affect how long it takes to complete a skill challenge.

Perhaps, but I think it just adds an unnecessary complication to determining the success of a challenge. For example, a DC where you have a 50-50 chance of a success, at "complexity" 1 (4 successes before 2 failures), is a 18.75% chance of overall success. At complexity 2 (6 successes before 3 failures), it's an overall 14.453% chance. Also, at tasks where you have a high chance of winning, complexity 2 is statistically easier than complexity 1. For a task with a 70% chance of a success, complexity 1 is a 52.822% chance of overall success, but complexity 2 is a 55.177% chance.

I can see your point about time, but I just don't like the difference between the numbers.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 04:28 PM
But you DON'T have a 50/50 chance. A trained Skill gives a nice extra bonus, which would probably make it more like 75-25. A skill focus improves it further.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-09, 04:34 PM
Wait... someone is using Math and Logic against me... must defend... with...

SLAAD!



"Giant Frog!"

Mando Knight
2008-05-09, 04:42 PM
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080509_114834_0.jpg

@ the orc on the left: Got enough axes? :smallamused:

Though seriously, that's what I'd do with swords if there was a tactical reason to doing so... (or if I just ran into that many swords. Greatsword on the back, longswords on belts, a bastard sword in my hand...)

LiteYear
2008-05-09, 04:52 PM
But you DON'T have a 50/50 chance. A trained Skill gives a nice extra bonus, which would probably make it more like 75-25. A skill focus improves it further.

True, statistically, as you get about 80% or above, the three complexities that I've seen stay close to the success rate. But, I still think this is an unnecessary complication. As a DM, if you want a trap/obstacle/task/whatever to have about a X% chance of success, what do you set the DC to for whatever complexity rating you want to use?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 04:53 PM
A DC the characters will make 80% of the time, or similar. Thus, they'll have a good, but not surefire, chance of making it.

Premier
2008-05-09, 05:19 PM
With a shout, you command an ally to attack.

While I'm sure it's mechanically sound,
*snip*

Also, "At Will" means it can be done every round if you want to, no? So does that mean if you have one fighter in the front and 10 Warlords in the back doing nothing but shout and shout and shout every round, then that single fighter receives 10 extra attacks every round? After all, the description does NOT specifiy any limits on how many shouts can be used on the same character.

EvilElitest
2008-05-09, 05:44 PM
I think it means "Orcs are defaulted to Chaotic Evil unless the DM decides that some or all of them aren't" just like in 3rd edition. Even if the statblock said "Usually X" (as opposed to Always X), the DM still had to specifically decide whether an individual of that race was X or not. If 51% of Orcs are Chaotic Evil, their default is still Chaotic Evil.

Sort of a suggestion, I imagine. Not like it matters, since there don't appear to be any/many effects that specifically target alignment in 4th edition.

In defense for 3E, usually meant that a good deal of the race can be expected to be non evil. That being said i hope your right.
from
EE

Starsinger
2008-05-09, 05:50 PM
While I'm sure it's mechanically sound, I've played and DM'ed for a few characters that, when a party member would command them to strike at some particular enemy, would flat-out refuse and either attack something else, or start a "you're not the boss of me" argument in mid-combat.

But the mechanics don't even allow for the other character to refuse - it states "an ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack". If you're playing a strategic board game, it makes sense to always want to take the strategically superior option. If you're playing a roleplaying game, it makes sense to be able to not do that, for reasons of character.

It doesn't have to be a command being barked at them, "Lidda, attack the Orc now!" it could very much be "Hey, Lidda, his back is turned." Which prompts Lidda to stab him. Which is very much different and not dependant on actual leadership at all.

MartinHarper
2008-05-09, 05:51 PM
Does that mean if you have one fighter in the front and 10 Warlords in the back doing nothing but shout and shout and shout every round, then that single fighter receives 10 extra attacks every round?

No. Commander's Strike is a melee power.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-09, 07:08 PM
Oh, so you thought starting an argument about it by complaining was expedient, rather then applying common sense. "If my character doesn't want to obey an order, they don't have to".
Here's a thought: if a sentence is suffixed with one of those smiling face thingies, that might be a hint that you should not take it overly seriously.


Also, "At Will" means it can be done every round if you want to, no? So does that mean if you have one fighter in the front and 10 Warlords in the back doing nothing but shout and shout and shout every round, then that single fighter receives 10 extra attacks every round?
Yes, it would seem so. "It's a melee power" appears to refer to the fact that the ally must make a melee attack.


It doesn't have to be a command being barked at them, "Lidda, attack the Orc now!" it could very much be "Hey, Lidda, his back is turned."
Well, duh. Except that the ability explicitly states "With a shout, you command an ally to attack."

Look, people. This is the internet. This is a message board full of geeks, that are fans of a webcomic that makes fun of D&D rules. It should not come as a surprise, then, that some people on the message boards enjoy, you know, making fun of D&D rules. Every halfway-decent DM will realize that you can't force your ally to attack and won't let you - but according to what the rule actually says, you can force your ally to attack his little dog just for the heck of it. And that's definitely Murphy's Rules material, and rather funny.

So if somebody makes a post that sounds like it shouldn't be serious, up to and including adding irony-alert smily faces, chances are that by going "OMG you can't srsly mean that!!!1!" you're just making a fool out of yourselves.

Aside from that, there are some brain-damaged DMs or players that won't get the point, which is why within one week of the game's release, there will be a flame war about this exact point. Mark my words.

EvilElitest
2008-05-09, 08:15 PM
remember kids, it is sloppy mistakes like that that makes 3E so fun to laugh at. Well that and the diplomacy system
from
EE

Rockphed
2008-05-10, 02:48 AM
It doesn't have to be a command being barked at them, "Lidda, attack the Orc now!" it could very much be "Hey, Lidda, his back is turned." Which prompts Lidda to stab him. Which is very much different and not dependant on actual leadership at all.

Or you could rewrite ye power as "With a Shout you give an ally an attack of Opportunity against a chosen foe." Your ally might not listen to your orders, but if he is too stupid to take a hit he is given, you should probably steal his stuff and just let him rot.

Rutee
2008-05-10, 02:49 AM
Here's a thought: if a sentence is suffixed with one of those smiling face thingies, that might be a hint that you should not take it overly seriously.

And the rest of your posts?


Also, "At Will" means it can be done every round if you want to, no? So does that mean if you have one fighter in the front and 10 Warlords in the back doing nothing but shout and shout and shout every round, then that single fighter receives 10 extra attacks every round? After all, the description does NOT specifiy any limits on how many shouts can be used on the same character.
Probably not. I suspect that's where the GM gets to impose suspension of disbelieve. Not that it's terribly efficient to have the Fighter make 12 basic melee attacks a turn + Fighter Action, over Fighter Action + 12 Warlord specials.

That does have me wondering how useful the power itself is. I think I know what it's used for, in truth, but it seems a bit more situational then normal (Fighter's already in melee, Warlord can't close)

Charity
2008-05-10, 06:41 AM
I have a vision ... through a smokey atmosphere we see a boxing ring, the PCs huddle around Biff their pugilist champion elect as he warms up in his corner, this is gonna be a breeze those scrawny lil kobolds have no hope mano a mano, one on one Biff will mangle his opponant.

In walks Yappy with his 8 'cheerleaders' a short fight ensues

Where did it all go wrong? Yappy was all over Biff, he didn't even make it to the second round...

After a thorough investigation it transpires that Yappy was operating under the influence of performance enhancing warloids... 'They made me do it' he crys in protest.

First they ruin our prison system now they make a mockery of the noble art of boxing these 4e designers just don't know when to stop! I don't feel the need to add a smilie

MartinHarper
2008-05-10, 01:20 PM
Yes, it would seem so. "It's a melee power" appears to refer to the fact that the ally must make a melee attack.

I think both the Warlord and her ally must be in melee range of the target. If the Warlord could shout from the backlines, the power would say "Standard Action Close 10" rather than "Standard Action Melee", so we would know how far away the Warlord can be. Thematically warlords are meant to get into melee. Also, it requires the warlord to have a weapon, so it's not just a shout. The thing that refers to the fact that the ally must make a melee attack is "An ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack against the target".

Otherwise, there's no range given, and those 10 warlords could be back at the tavern drinking.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-10, 05:12 PM
Otherwise, there's no range given, and those 10 warlords could be back at the tavern drinking.

Well, you gotta admit that would be fun and atmospherical :smallbiggrin:

(note to Rutee: pay particular attention to the smily at the end of the previous line; it is there to indicate something... :smalltongue: )

Mewtarthio
2008-05-13, 01:52 AM
Well, you gotta admit that would be fun and atmospherical :smallbiggrin:

That'd be awesome. Bob the Fighter publicly challenges the Evil Emperor to a duel at five o'clock sharp the next day. Then, at five o'clock sharp, every Warlord in the world starts screaming "Attack! Attack! Attack!", and Bob instantly purees the bastard.

Re: Traps:

I'm assuming that the poor Rogue isn't vulnerable to the trap every round that he's making a skill check. I figured that the "control panel" was the kind of thing that you use to turn off the trap yourself (say, with the proper password) so that you can enter your own lair without being eviscerated. The Rogue probably won't even mind if the control panel is on the other side of the trap, since he's got access to enough mobility powers to slip past unharmed.

Does anyone else find the Soul Gem to be a little underwhelming, particularly for something that's supposed to challenge an epic-level party on its own? It zaps you, except it fires off randomly, so it's more likely to just zap the air. Plus, what with the name and all, I was kind of hoping it would violently tear your soul from your body or something.

Justin_Bacon
2008-05-13, 03:00 AM
Why does it take a DC 29 check to spot a fist-sized gem? :smallbiggrin:

Because that's what would be challenging for characters of that level. Duh. :smallcool:

If you think 4th Edition is going to feature any kind of meaningful relationship between the world the characters are living in and the mechanics you're manipulating, then you haven't been paying attention.


But the mechanics don't even allow for the other character to refuse - it states "an ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack". If you're playing a strategic board game, it makes sense to always want to take the strategically superior option. If you're playing a roleplaying game, it makes sense to be able to not do that, for reasons of character.

I'm trying to avoid a snarky comment along the lines of, "You're first mistake was thinking you were playing a roleplaying game"... but I think I just did.