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Saph
2008-05-09, 10:02 AM
(Inspired by the Worg-as-PC thread.)

I've always loved blink dogs. The picture is cool, and the idea of a pack of intelligent, teleporting dogs is just hilarious. I've always wanted to get one in a game.

Unfortunately, as per the base rules, there's no effective way to do it. You can get one via Exalted Companion or a normal cohort, or turn into one with Shapechange, but by the time you have access to any of those things the monsters you're facing will kill the 22 HP blink dog in one hit.

The alternative is to actually play one. The stats list a blink dog as (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm):

+6 Dex
+2 Wis
4 racial HD
Level adjust +2 (cohort)

What do you think a good LA would be for it as a PC? Its major abilities are its at-will blink and dimension door, but it can't talk or manipulate objects.

- Saph

Duke of URL
2008-05-09, 10:09 AM
The at-will dimension door as a once-per-round free action is the sticking point.

Imagine a blink dog striker of some sort -- DD into flanking position (free action), full attack, enable blink (free action) to help avoid counter-attacks. Next round, disable blink, full attack, DD to safety.

Very powerful, especially if you can find some way to increase the number of attacks (blink dog Monk or other unarmed fighter?)

Xefas
2008-05-09, 10:16 AM
I played a Blink Dog Scout for a little while in a PbP game once. The DM ruled that Dimension Dooring 10' or more activated Skirmish.

Incredible fun from a roleplaying perspective. Kind of bland in battle (as all non-spellcasting non-Tome of Battle characters tend to get after a while).

In retrospect, a Shadow Hand Swordsage would have been really cool.

I think +2 with LA buyback/reduction/thingy would probably work out okay.

Keld Denar
2008-05-09, 10:35 AM
I wouldn't think a +2 would be too much. Sure, its strong out of combat, but in combat, being a dog would be suboptimal due to being able to use a weapon (with enhancements and weapon based feats).

In any respect, I think this would actually be an interesting case where monk would be a favorable choice....Unarmed Strikes can be made in addition to normal natural bite attack.

Plus, with Flurry of Blows and the at will Dim Door, you'd qualify for the Sun School Tactical feat REALLY EARLY. Like, right after you finish all your LA and racial HD and take that first monk level. Sun School is all kinds of fun, especially the blink-attack. Take Stunning Fist and you can blink-stun people that are trying to run away. The pushback feature is nice too, since it provokes.

And your stat mods (dex/wis) synergize well with being a monk. It'd be really cool if there was like, an Ascetic Scirmisher feat or something like that, that combined UAS progression with Scirmish progression. You could make monk/scout that wouldn't be totally worthless, but totally wouldn't be game breaking.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 10:42 AM
Totally play an Unarmed swordsage variant.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-09, 10:46 AM
Yeah, and if you REALLY are a sucker for true fine manipulators, there was a spell in some third party called Anthropomorphize. Three guesses on what it did, I'll bet no DM will stop you from it.

Adumbration
2008-05-09, 10:56 AM
A VoP unarmed Swordsage sounds pretty good on this.

Chronos
2008-05-09, 11:19 AM
The at-will dimension door as a once-per-round free action is the sticking point.Nah, that's the reason it has an LA at all. The reason its LA is listed as being cohort-only is the lack of hands. The afore-mentioned worgs are also listed as cohort-only, and they don't have any cool superpowers. So if you and your DM are cool with playing a character without opposable thumbs, just go with the +2.


Very powerful, especially if you can find some way to increase the number of attacks (blink dog Monk or other unarmed fighter?)When I did a blink dog in one of the gestalt challenges, I used a scout/wildshape ranger with Swift Hunter. That gives you full BAB for most levels, full skirmish from class levels, and the ability to turn into something with a ton of natural attacks. That was a Gestalt build, so I also had rogue on the other side for even more precision damage, but that's not really necessary.

Jacob Orlove
2008-05-09, 11:20 AM
Ooh, a chance to link the excellent http://tailsteak.com/archive.php?num=466


The character I had made was a feral boy, abandoned in the wild and raised by blink dogs. As a result, he had very poor social skills, a crazy unarmed agile fighting style, instincts that allowed him to survive in the wilderness, a very strong (if entirely inappropriate) code of moral behaviour... and the ability to teleport up to 30 feet at will.

I had taken two levels in a class called Totemist that allowed the teleportation thing, and the rest was all in Monk - so, of course, I was jumping around with my 18 Dexterity and doing crazy damage with my bare hands. Very sweet.

I was advancing him as a Monk, but he started out with two levels in Totemist (from the book Magic of Incarnum), which allowed him to manifest the Blink Shirt and bind it to his totem chakra - which allowed him to use Dimension Door as the spell as a move action.

The rest of the story is great, but that's the relevant part here. You should be able to take the same idea and apply it instead of the LA and normal special abilities.

FinalJustice
2008-05-09, 11:45 AM
Totally play an Unarmed swordsage variant.

Seconded! High Dex + High Wis + Shadow Hand = FUN!

Craig1f
2008-05-09, 11:53 AM
Go Druid. Find the Exhalted Feat that lets you turn into celestial creatures. Turn into a blink dog and stay there.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-05-09, 01:01 PM
The at-will dimension door as a once-per-round free action is the sticking point.

Imagine a blink dog striker of some sort -- DD into flanking position (free action), full attack, enable blink (free action) to help avoid counter-attacks. Next round, disable blink, full attack, DD to safety.

Very powerful, especially if you can find some way to increase the number of attacks (blink dog Monk or other unarmed fighter?)

That's a pretty good tactic, save for the fact that you only get one (1) free action per turn. You can DD in and full attack but you can't also activate blink that same turn. Your best bet would be to move in normally and use your standard action attack. Take the hit that you've got coming, full attack, and then DD out. Better yet, make sure your AC is so ridiculously high that you don't get hit at all. If you're going to use blink, activate it at the end of the first turn in melee, deactivate it at the beginning of your next turn (not sure what kind of action that takes, it may not require one at all) make your full attack and then activate blink again at the end of the turn. No sense in using to DD to leave the melee range unless your opponent has already bypassed the blink miss chance a few times and taken your hp down pretty low.

-Blue

Iku Rex
2008-05-09, 01:02 PM
Nah, that's the reason it has an LA at all. The reason its LA is listed as being cohort-only is the lack of hands. (The rules are not clear if the [cohort] tag is supposed to mean "cohort only" or "suggested as a cohort".)

Admiral Squish
2008-05-09, 01:08 PM
That's a pretty good tactic, save for the fact that you only get one (1) free action per turn. You can DD in and full attack but you can't also activate blink that same turn. Your best bet would be to move in normally and use your standard action attack. Take the hit that you've got coming, full attack, and then DD out. Better yet, make sure your AC is so ridiculously high that you don't get hit at all. If you're going to use blink, activate it at the end of the first turn in melee, deactivate it at the beginning of your next turn (not sure what kind of action that takes, it may not require one at all) make your full attack and then activate blink again at the end of the turn. No sense in using to DD to leave the melee range unless your opponent has already bypassed the blink miss chance a few times and taken your hp down pretty low.

-Blue
Incorrect. Free actions are just that: free actions. You can have as many of them in a turn as you want, and they can be done anywhere in the turn you want. You're thinking of swift, or immediate actions.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-05-09, 01:16 PM
Incorrect. Free actions are just that: free actions. You can have as many of them in a turn as you want, and they can be done anywhere in the turn you want. You're thinking of swift, or immediate actions.

Wow. That's pretty ridiculous.

I'd probably change those abilities to swift or immediate actions in that case if running or playing a blink dog PC. LA +2 and 4 racial hit die don't make that in anyway balanced for play as a PC, particularly with those stat bumps. Hands or no hands, that would be pretty overpowered in any game I've played in.

-Blue

Frosty
2008-05-09, 01:29 PM
What I would do is make the DD a free action that can only be done one per round. +2 LA and +4 Racial HD really, really sucks hard. You are 6 levels behind everyone else.

FinalJustice
2008-05-09, 01:31 PM
Incorrect. Free actions are just that: free actions. You can have as many of them in a turn as you want, and they can be done anywhere in the turn you want. You're thinking of swift, or immediate actions.

Even agreeing with you that this is RAW, no sane person would allow the DimDoor-SLA this way. Because it technically makes the blink dog invulnerable to melee attacks, ranged attacks and non-locate-city-bomb-radius AoE effects, by simply DDing out of the harm's way. The blink dog was made before the publication of swift/ immediate/free action differentiation rules, being this the source of brokeness.

Edit: Do they get Ninja'ing as a free-action?!

monty
2008-05-09, 01:38 PM
Even agreeing with you that this is RAW, no sane person would allow the DimDoor-SLA this way. Because it technically makes the blink dog invulnerable to melee attacks, ranged attacks and non-locate-city-bomb-radius AoE effects, by simply DDing out of the harm's way. The blink dog was made before the publication of swift/ immediate/free action differentiation rules, being this the source of brokeness.

Edit: Do they get Ninja'ing as a free-action?!

Except it already says that you can only use it once a round.


A blink dog can teleport, as dimension door (caster level 8th), once per round as a free action. The ability affects only the blink dog, which never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting.

The only difference between this and a swift action is you can still take a swift action after doing ths.

Chronos
2008-05-09, 01:40 PM
Eh, free actions are still only usable on your turn, unless specified otherwise. And the Blink Dog is still limited to only one DD a turn: It (and the blinking) being free instead of swift just means that he can blink and port in the same round.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 02:01 PM
Eh, free actions are still only usable on your turn.

Not even close to the truth. Free actions can be used at any time.

The_Snark
2008-05-09, 02:31 PM
Not even close to the truth. Free actions can be used at any time.

No, he's right. Free actions say absolutely nothing about being useable at any time; the entry for speaking specifically notes that it's useable even when it's not your turn, making that an exception.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 02:35 PM
But does it say anything about NOT being useable on your turn unless specified? I could very well be wrong, but I've always heard Free Actions describes as anytime you want.

Iku Rex
2008-05-09, 03:35 PM
I could very well be wrong, but I've always heard Free Actions describes as anytime you want.You are, like The_Snark and Chronos have pointed out, wrong.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#actionTypes

"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

Compare with the description of immediate actions:

"An immediate action ... can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn."

The_Snark
2008-05-09, 03:40 PM
But does it say anything about NOT being useable on your turn unless specified? I could very well be wrong, but I've always heard Free Actions describes as anytime you want.

Given that a specific exception is made for speaking, I'm pretty sure that is not the case. More on free actions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) The default for actions is that you have to take them on your turn; exceptions, like speaking and immediate actions, will say so.

UserClone
2008-05-09, 07:08 PM
First of all, it's pretty safe to assume that "free action once per turn" is just a pre-swift action version of saying "swift action." Secondly, there's no way to take an action after a DD anyways.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-09, 08:28 PM
Secondly, there's no way to take an action after a DD anyways.

Someone should read the relevant rules before posting.

Blink Dog's DD specifically says they can act immediately after DDing.

Monty even posted the relevant information already, so maybe just fully reading the thread would work.


A blink dog can teleport, as dimension door (caster level 8th), once per round as a free action. The ability affects only the blink dog, which never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting.
Bolded for your convenience.

UserClone
2008-05-09, 10:44 PM
Sorry, that was in response to the Blink Shirt option.