WH40k: Imperial Guard Tactics

[Dervag]

I'm thinking of picking up the hobby, and I feel like an Imperial Guard commander for some reason.

Any suggestions about what are good strategies for playing those guys, especially for small start-up armies?

[tyckspoon]

The traditional Guard setup is a gunline consisting of lots and lots of basic Guardsmen, along with a few tanks and/or heavy weapons squads to blow up anything a lasgun can't hurt. It plays out as an exercise in the wargaming truism "Everything counts in large amounts." Not scoring enough hits? Not wounding enough? Opposing Marines making too many saves? All of these problems can be solved by pointing more guns at the enemy.

Even a 'small' starting army lends itself to those tactics, because the Guard's fundamental Troops choice (at least the last time I checked; they may have printed a different Codex.. I don't think so, tho.) is the Platoon, which consists of at least 2 squads worth of men and their normal HQ is a full Command Squad. So your minimal army of 1 Troops and 1 HQ consists of 25 figures, compared to the 11 or so typical of armies that use more elite troops. You could also go for an Armored Fist squad or squads for your basic Troops selection, which is 10 dudes in a Chimera; that'll work alright if you think you want to practice an armor-heavy Guard instead, which is the other iconic Guard layout. Lots of tanks as the primary power with infantry mostly working in support.

[Wraith]

...Nope, can't find anything more to add to tyckspoon's summary - it's perfect :smallsmile:

The only thing you really need to decide on are what KIND of guns you want to point, en masse, at your opponent. Hundreds of rifle-sized laser? Scores of miniguns? Dozens of tank-mounted cannons? Or just a couple of Orbital Bombardments?

In any of the above, plus any combination, the Imperial Guard can accommodate.
The only problem I foresee is that you might end up buying a hundred IG Troops, and deciding that you don't like painting them very much. Thats why I recommend more Tanks - they're fun to play with, and it's generally easier to paint 5 or 6 tanks than it is to paint 6 Squads or Troops + 1 HQ choice + 2 Heavy Squads of men for the same price. :smallsmile:

[Evil DM Mark3]

The above is all good. However they are a bit short on the weaknesses. Toughness and saves are poor, but you do not have to worry, guardsmen are cheap. Leadership problems are more of an issue, that is why I love Commissars. Close combat is either somthing you ignore, or get a small squad ready to counter big threats. I run a 99% guardsmen army (one tank) and mostly ingnore close combat and just try and keep the troops from running.

[SmartAlec]

Don't underestimate Stormtroopers, and especially not Ogryn or Rough Riders - but those can wait until you've got your basic gunline sorted out and have a 'feel' for how they'll fit into the overall structure.

One nifty thing I've found is that you can buy a box of 20 guys, buy a heavy weapons squad - that gives you 26 guys and 3 heavy weapons. Then, with a bit of tweaking and conversion, you can turn that into 2 squads of 10, with a heavy weapon each, and a Lieutenant in a 5-man squad, with a heavy weapon.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I heard you can "invent" tank-regiments, and be made up mostly of tanks. Is it true?

How valid is this strategy?

[Blayze]

From what I've pieced together from talking with my IG-playing friend, the Guard get to choose from a number of Doctrines, one or more of which may allow mechanised infantry choices (That is to say, bung everyone in a vehicle).

I also remember him once mentioning that he could, if he wanted to, take tanks at any section of his army list (HQ, Elites, etc).

And then there's Apocalypse, which throws army lists out of the window and which would obviously let you take as many tanks as you want.

[Dervag]

What make good weapons mixes for Guard units? Are squad-level heavy weapons a good idea?

What are good tactics for tank-infantry cooperation with the Guard?

[Swordguy]

What make good weapons mixes for Guard units? Are squad-level heavy weapons a good idea?

What are good tactics for tank-infantry cooperation with the Guard?

Lascannon and Heavy Bolters are your friends. While Autocannon and Missile Launchers can be useful, neither is good at tank-killing or infantry-killing as the dedicated unit. Also, Heavy weapon squads are a trap. Your guardsmen are essentially ablative armor for your heavy weapons, heavy weapon squads don't have this luxury. It's far easier for your opponent to focus-fire and wipe out a 6-man Heavy Weapon squad to kill 3 HBs or LCs and it is to kill 3 infantry squads of 10 men each - each with a single HB or LC.

There are 3 things that are the bane of the Imperial Guard. One is fast-attack armies like Blood Angels. They can occasionally dash forward and get into assault on the first turn of the game, and then sweeping advance from assault to assault without your ever being able to shoot at them. The second are troops like Space Wolf Scouts, that will appear in your backfield right on top of your support units and wipe them out. This also covers teleporting troops that can assault straight out of the teleport. The third thing that screws over IG is the Necron Army List. How do you beat them? Leave ALL your vehicles at home and hope the Necron player isn't rich enough to afford multiple pyramids (that can Deep Strike into the middle of your army and kill basically every guardsman within 24").

Tank-infantry co-op isn't as sophisticated as you may think. Since you can't fire heavy weapons while moving, and most of your effective firepower comes from your heavy weapons, its not a question of infantry squads bounding forward with armored support. It's more a matter of understanding what to fire "when". Ideally, you'd fire infantry weapons at a target first to whittle down their squad size (casualties will usually be taken from the edges of a squad to maintain the 2" coherency rule), then when there's enough guys left in the squad to fit under the ordnance template, drop a Leman Russ shell on them. Against most troops, this will wipe out the squad, allowing you to move to the next enemy squad with your infantry weapons...

Tip: now that you can move up to 6" and fire your battlecannon, it's a good idea to start your tanks behind cover as much as possible so they don't get wiped out if your opponent gets the first turn. Nothing is a frustrating as watching your opponent vaporize all of your tanks on the first turn (which is quite possible) and never getting to shoot them.

Finally, the bigger the board, the more powerful the IG gets. Their plentiful and cheap support weapons will shoot between 3 and 10 feet, while most armies shoot up to 4 feet. If you can wipe out their not-so-plentiful and expensive long-range weapons (Whirwinds, Chaos walking-cheeze machines that shoot ordnance rounds, etc) you'll have some unmolested time to wipe out their army as they mindlessly charge in. For this reason, people like to play IG on as small a table as they can get away with. Don't let them! Insist on a 4x6 board at a minimum. I've had people try to play me on 3x3 boards at 2000 points...

[Bryn]

I heard you can "invent" tank-regiments, and be made up mostly of tanks. Is it true?

How valid is this strategy?

The Armoured Company list (http://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/armouredcompanies/1/).

If your opponent has little or no anti-tank, it will be completely unbalanced in your favour. If they have loads of anti-tank, they'll crush you.

In addition, the Mechanised doctrine allows (and even forces) every one of your infantry squads to be mounted in a Chimera APC.


The main thing has already been said: numbers, numbers, and more numbers. Don't spend too many points on any individual thing, as individual Guard units are fairly easy to kill - this is why many doctrines aren't worth it. Carapace armour is often considered to be a trap, for example.

That's the sound tactical advice that I got from other people, and thus most likely to be decent advice. Following is what I do, but I don't really tend to win a lot, so maybe you should ignore the rest of this if that's your goal.

While the Guard probably work best as an army that doesn't move, I personally consider that to be extremely boring, and thus I keep my heavy weapon squads (Sabre platforms, to be specific) seperate from my infantry platoons and run everyone out across the board. Tactically, I am sure everyone will be happy to tell me that this is Extremely Stupid, but I find games played this way more fun. If I had the money, I'd stick them all in Arvus Lighters, which means they are about as mobile as anything can ever be, and points-wise it's actually cheaper than Mecanising them(!).

Hellhounds are worth their weight in gold when there's a lot of terrain, such as in Cities of Death/Cityfight games, at least when fighting non-Marines, as you can almost entirely wipe out a squad with a single shot with the Inferno cannon, ignoring cover saves. More importantly, to me, the Forge World Hellhounds look (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/hhart.htm) amazing (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/boschic06.htm).

Apart from that, as people have said, put as many men on the field as possible, and perhaps listen to Swordguy, who seems to know much more about the subject of winning than me :smallbiggrin:

[Da King]

That Hellhound is Beautiful. I want it. Actually, tyckspoon, assuming that you're starting army has the necessary two troop choices filled using two infantry platoons(which need a command squad each), you'll have 55 figures to start, 40 figures +3 (5 figures each)command squads. You can also reduce this number by making one (or both) of your troop selections armored fist squads, (who don't need a command squad) so your starting army would consist of 20 figures+ 2 chimeras+command squad, which is 25 figures + 2 tanks.

*Listens to the Wisdom of Z-axis*

[Bryn]

You can also reduce this number by making one (or both) of your troop selections armored fist squads, (who don't need a command squad) so your starting army would consist of 20 figures+ 2 chimeras+command squad, which is 25 figures + 2 tanks.
Unfortunately for the Armoured Fist plan, you have to have have an Infantry Platoon for every Armoured Fist Squad. So, you have to have at least 25 in the Platoon, meaning the minimum is 41, as 2 command squads, 2 squads, 1 AF squad, and a tank. This is a minimum of 220 points.

If you have IA4, you can use the Elysian Detachment D-99 list, but that's more expensive points-wise and it comes with Drop Troops fluff, not to mention being unable to use many Guard units.

[Dervag]

Flamers- good or bad?


Lascannon and Heavy Bolters are your friends. While Autocannon and Missile Launchers can be useful, neither is good at tank-killing or infantry-killing as the dedicated unit. Also, Heavy weapon squads are a trap. Your guardsmen are essentially ablative armor for your heavy weapons, heavy weapon squads don't have this luxury. It's far easier for your opponent to focus-fire and wipe out a 6-man Heavy Weapon squad to kill 3 HBs or LCs and it is to kill 3 infantry squads of 10 men each - each with a single HB or LC.So squad-level heavy weapons, as opposed to designated heavy weapons squads, are a good idea.

My impression was that "X-level" meant that the weapons were organic to the X. Thus, the British Expeditionary Force of World War One had "battalion level" machine guns, because each battalion had two Vickers guns. The modern US military has "squad level" (or "fire team level?") machine guns, hence the name SAW. I may be using terminology wrong, but I kind of doubt it.

My instinct was to put heavy weapons into the individual Guard squads, except maybe for a mortar battery or something. After all, a heavy weapons unit can control only one point and, as you say, draws fire.


There are 3 things that are the bane of the Imperial Guard. One is fast-attack armies like Blood Angels. They can occasionally dash forward and get into assault on the first turn of the game, and then sweeping advance from assault to assault without your ever being able to shoot at them.I was worried about stuff like that happening.

Does "Hardened Fighters" doctrine help perceptibly?


Tank-infantry co-op... more a matter of understanding what to fire "when". Ideally, you'd fire infantry weapons at a target first to whittle down their squad size (casualties will usually be taken from the edges of a squad to maintain the 2" coherency rule), then when there's enough guys left in the squad to fit under the ordnance template, drop a Leman Russ shell on them.I like.

Remind me again what the consequences of losing coherence are?


For this reason, people like to play IG on as small a table as they can get away with. [i]Don't let them! Insist on a 4x6 board at a minimum. I've had people try to play me on 3x3 boards at 2000 points...Never bring a mortar to a knife fight, sort of thing?

[Swordguy]

Flamers- good or bad?


Good for assaulty units. Note that the IG is not generally an assaulty army. I find that the best assaulty squads (if you must use them) are generally hardened vets, stormtroopers, or command squads. Of those, you'll want flamers in command squads, because since they're template weapons, you don't have to roll to hit. You're wasting the BS4 for Vets and STs if you have flamers there. I recall at one point putting a 4-flamer command squad (it had a Commissar for the 4th flamer) in a Chimera and going Ork-hunting. Multiple flames are a must. In the IG, the Stalin quote is the correct one (Quantity has a quality all of its own.").

A single flamer in a basic infantry squad with a heavy weapon is generally a waste of points. Flamers are weapons that are fired on the move- heavy weapons can't fire on the move. bad synergy. Defensively, they're good against low-toughness enemies that stop movement within 3" of you but can't assault. Thats...rare.

If you're going to use special weapons like those, the grenade launcher is an AWESOME choice in either an HB or LC squad, because it's good against T4 on down (which is most of the armies you'll face). Sure, you have to roll to hit, but at least you're able to do so - which is better than flamers or meltas. Plasmas are good as well...as long as you understand and are fine with your troops blowing themselves up. I'm not playing Orks, so I'm not, generally. I will make an exception if I'm playing Space Marines, Necrons, or Tau though.



So squad-level heavy weapons, as opposed to designated heavy weapons squads, are a good idea.

My impression was that "X-level" meant that the weapons were organic to the X. Thus, the British Expeditionary Force of World War One had "battalion level" machine guns, because each battalion had two Vickers guns. The modern US military has "squad level" (or "fire team level?") machine guns, hence the name SAW. I may be using terminology wrong, but I kind of doubt it.

My instinct was to put heavy weapons into the individual Guard squads, except maybe for a mortar battery or something. After all, a heavy weapons unit can control only one point and, as you say, draws fire.


Your analysis is generally correct. Heavy Weapons Squads are Company Weapons Squads (which would be grouped together logisitically to form a Heavy Weapon Platoon), but the Heavy Weapons assigned to squads are integral to those squads.

The mortar battery is the sole exception to the "don't take Heavy Weaon Squads" wisdom. Why? They can sit out of Line of Sight and shoot just fine. :smallbiggrin:




I was worried about stuff like that happening.

Does "Hardened Fighters" doctrine help perceptibly?


Not really. Taking more troops is almost always superior to taking doctrines. I tend to take the formation fighters doctrine (because it encourages me to keep my units in a small frontage individually, which helps me spread them out, which hurts my opponent's chances to Sweeping Advance), and the re-roll missed to-hit checks is GREAT if you feel you must take a Heavy Bolter or Lascannon Squad (since IIRC it costs "per model", and there's no extraneous models in a HW squad...)



I like.

Remind me again what the consequences of losing coherence are?


It screws up your movement next turn. Since essentially everybody but Tau are going to be trying to get into close combat with you, the more you can force them to spend movement regaining coherency the longer it'll take for them to get there. That means you can shoot at them for longer.



Never bring a mortar to a knife fight, sort of thing?

Basically. Don't think it won't happen.

[Dervag]

If you're going to use special weapons like those, the grenade launcher is an AWESOME choice in either an HB or LC squad, because it's good against T4 on down (which is most of the armies you'll face). Sure, you have to roll to hit, but at least you're able to do so - which is better than flamers or meltas.I thought meltas had a to-hit roll.

And what do "HB" and "LC" mean?


Plasmas are good as well...as long as you understand and are fine with your troops blowing themselves up. I'm not playing Orks, so I'm not, generally. I will make an exception if I'm playing Space Marines, Necrons, or Tau though.So plasma guns are good, except when casualties due to malfunctions are an unacceptable problem, which only applies to... half the armies in the game? With some of the others not even having plasma weapons?


The mortar battery is the sole exception to the "don't take Heavy Weaon Squads" wisdom. Why? They can sit out of Line of Sight and shoot just fine. :smallbiggrin:I kinda like the whole "rain parabolic exploding death on my enemies" concept.

Is the 2d6 inch deviation in where you put the template on a miss a problem? With a whole mortar battery, the odds of one of the three rounds going near where you wanted the 'ranging' shot to go would improve, I expect, but still...


Not really. Taking more troops is almost always superior to taking doctrines. I tend to take the formation fighters doctrine (because it encourages me to keep my units in a small frontage individually, which helps me spread them out, which hurts my opponent's chances to Sweeping Advance), and the re-roll missed to-hit checks is GREAT if you feel you must take a Heavy Bolter or Lascannon Squad (since IIRC it costs "per model", and there's no extraneous models in a HW squad...)This is a concept: am asking for a feasibility check.

Mechanized infantry HW teams. The Guards' Chimera has firing ports; the HW squad could fire from under armor if the APC doesn't move in the movement phase. The catch is that the Chimera more vulnerable to antitank weapons. Do you think that would work- using the Chimera as a mobile heavy weapons bunker?

I have no idea if this is smart or not.


Basically. Don't think it won't happen.I expect it.

Which is why I'm also hoping for any suggestions that have a decent chance of keeping my Guardsmen alive if they do get close-assaulted. The one about keeping them in separated units will probably help.

[Funkyodor]

Flamers and Melta guns work wonders when used with the Drop Troops doctrine.

[Blayze]

And what do "HB" and "LC" mean?

Heavy Bolter and Lascannon, as far as I can tell.

[13_CBS]

Quick question: if the average IG army and the Tau (Tau only, no Kroot) were to, somehow, get into a melee fight, who would win? I've heard that both armies are terrible at melee, so I was wondering who would be better...

[BRC]

Quick question: if the average IG army and the Tau (Tau only, no Kroot) were to, somehow, get into a melee fight, who would win? I've heard that both armies are terrible at melee, so I was wondering who would be better...
The IG. The IG are merely pathetic at melee, the Tau on the other hand couldn't melee their way out of a munitorium issue cardboard box.

[13_CBS]

Gotcha.

Is that because the IG have legitimate melee weapons (chainsaws, etc.), or simply because the Tau are statistically bad at melee, regardless of weapon?

Or both?

[BRC]

Yeah, Your standard issue IG Trooper has a warknife or Bayonette, your standard issue Tau Fire Warrior pistol whips somebody. I think it was said somewhere that the Tau figured out they wern't much good at meele and so decided to ignore it completally.

Then again, this implies that the Imperial Guard will be able to get into meele with the Tau, and though the Tau will get beaten by anything tougher than a pile of smouldering ash...

[Zorg]

This is a concept: am asking for a feasibility check.

Mechanized infantry HW teams. The Guards' Chimera has firing ports; the HW squad could fire from under armor if the APC doesn't move in the movement phase. The catch is that the Chimera more vulnerable to antitank weapons. Do you think that would work- using the Chimera as a mobile heavy weapons bunker?

I have no idea if this is smart or not.

When you fire from a vehicle and don't have a +2 or +3 save (ie Guard) the vehicle then counts as open topped. This adds 1 to any damage rolls against the vehicle, and every hit counts as two. Probably not the best idea unless the enemy has almost no AT weapons.

[LBO]

Put it this way. IG are mere humans in a galaxy of superhuman horrors. Tau are like drunk, longsighted humans with crap reflexes who can't focus on stuff right in front of them.

[Swordguy]

I thought meltas had a to-hit roll.

And what do "HB" and "LC" mean?


As mentioned, Heavy Bolter and LasCannon.



So plasma guns are good, except when casualties due to malfunctions are an unacceptable problem, which only applies to... half the armies in the game? With some of the others not even having plasma weapons?


See, here's the thing...against low-point-value enemy troopers, you'll be able to kill them just fine with weapons that aren't likely to kill you just from shooting them. Against the armies I mentioned (high armor-save, high point-value troopers), it's worth taking a weapon that's got a 1-in-six chance to kill the trooper because the point value of whatever you kill will almost certainly be higher than the point value you lose from the trooper dying. A plasma shot will smoke a Space marine or a Necron, and has a chance to kill Tau Battlesuits (which lasguns essentially don't). These are all expensive units, so from a cost-benefit analysis it's worth it. Against a cheap trooper you're less likely to get your points back from taking the plasma weapon "when" the trooper dies.



I kinda like the whole "rain parabolic exploding death on my enemies" concept.


Indeed. You may wish to look into Basilisks then. Parabolic death in a pie-plate with a S10 creamy filling.



Is the 2d6 inch deviation in where you put the template on a miss a problem? With a whole mortar battery, the odds of one of the three rounds going near where you wanted the 'ranging' shot to go would improve, I expect, but still...


Yes. It sucks. I far prefer the old "guess range".



This is a concept: am asking for a feasibility check.

Mechanized infantry HW teams. The Guards' Chimera has firing ports; the HW squad could fire from under armor if the APC doesn't move in the movement phase. The catch is that the Chimera more vulnerable to antitank weapons. Do you think that would work- using the Chimera as a mobile heavy weapons bunker?

I have no idea if this is smart or not.


Again, as mentioned, it makes the Chimera open-topped, which means it dies quicker. Additionally, you can only move a few inches and still fire the heavy weapon, so it's not as mobile as you're thinking.



I expect it.

Which is why I'm also hoping for any suggestions that have a decent chance of keeping my Guardsmen alive if they do get close-assaulted. The one about keeping them in separated units will probably help.
[/quote]

Your best bet is simply keeping sections of your army far apart (but within mutual support range) of each other. If one section gets assaulted, the OPFOR will hopefully spend at least one turn in the open for you to smoke them before they can assault again. You USED to be able (when artillery was "guess" range) to be able to deliberately guess "short", which dropped your rounds into melee combat. I'm not sure if there's stil a way to do that anymore.

Unfortunately, GW has designed the game to promote assaulty armies - IG (and to an extent Tau - their battlesuits can be half-way decent in melee) is not an assaulty army, therefore they are to an extent gimped from the start because they break the central paradigm of the game. Your best hope is to smoke the enemy before he ever gets to your front lines - but the commonality of first-turn assault armies is going to make that a real chore. That said, IG armies that work are an awesome sight to behold.

[Dervag]

When you fire from a vehicle and don't have a +2 or +3 save (ie Guard) the vehicle then counts as open topped. This adds 1 to any damage rolls against the vehicle, and every hit counts as two. Probably not the best idea unless the enemy has almost no AT weapons.Yeah. That's what I was wondering. Because on the one hand, the firepower would be excellent and the Chimera would shield the gunners from being directly targeted with antipersonnel weapons.

The flip side, I thought, was exactly what you just pointed out. The Chimera is "more vulnerable to antitank weapons."

Hmm... think it might be a good idea for Space Marines? They do have a 3+ save.


See, here's the thing...against low-point-value enemy troopers, you'll be able to kill them just fine with weapons that aren't likely to kill you just from shooting them. Against the armies I mentioned (high armor-save, high point-value troopers), it's worth taking a weapon that's got a 1-in-six chance to kill the trooper because the point value of whatever you kill will almost certainly be higher than the point value you lose from the trooper dying. A plasma shot will smoke a Space marine or a Necron, and has a chance to kill Tau Battlesuits (which lasguns essentially don't). These are all expensive units, so from a cost-benefit analysis it's worth it. Against a cheap trooper you're less likely to get your points back from taking the plasma weapon "when" the trooper dies.OK. I misunderstood you. You were saying "when I am fighting [armies with tough infantry], I use plasma guns." I thought you were saying "I find it worthwhile to use plasma weapons in the following armies: [Necron, Space Marines...]"

Which made no sense to me. I certainly understand the logic of wanting to use plasma weapons against targets heavily armored enough to need a direct hit from a plasma gun to bring them down. Yes.


Indeed. You may wish to look into Basilisks then. Parabolic death in a pie-plate with a S10 creamy filling.Already thinking about them for long-term plans.


Yes. It sucks. I far prefer the old "guess range".Huh?


Again, as mentioned, it makes the Chimera open-topped, which means it dies quicker. Additionally, you can only move a few inches and still fire the heavy weapon, so it's not as mobile as you're thinking.I didn't mean "move and shoot," I meant "I can move the gun-bunker into position quickly and fire from it while stationary or crawling."

I'm quite prepared to believe it's a bad idea- I knew about the open-topped risk; it's just that from the description I wasn't sure how serious a problem that was. If it increased the vulnerability moderately it might well be worth it in my book. It increases the vulnerability more than I thought, so it's probably not worth it, as y'all say.


Your best bet is simply keeping sections of your army far apart (but within mutual support range) of each other. If one section gets assaulted, the OPFOR will hopefully spend at least one turn in the open for you to smoke them before they can assault again.That's what I thought you meant by keeping the units tightly bunched and separated.


You USED to be able (when artillery was "guess" range) to be able to deliberately guess "short", which dropped your rounds into melee combat. I'm not sure if there's stil a way to do that anymore.I don't think so. I mean, it looks like you just can't target that.

Question: When one of your AFVs is being assaulted by enemy infantry, can you use your own infantry to attack the enemy infantry? I mean, normally they've got this lovely "no firing into melee" rule, but you'd think that if I've got a squad of infantry with the ever-popular flashlight, they'd be able to hose down my tank that the orks are crawling all over with little fear of damaging it.

[leperkhaun]

if you are fightin tyranids, you will want a flamer.

Iv seen several guard setup, from the i have 400 guys on the table, you will not make some of the saves, to have massive amounts of tanks and artilery and just bomb the heck out of people.

I play nids and if i know that a player does not use flamers in a IG army, ill go heavy stealers and lictors and hide them all.

[Dervag]

I'd just like to remind everybody that I haven't ever played the game itself, and I've only known any significant amount of information about it in the past month or two.

Abbreviations like "LC" and "heavy stealers" may be perfectly informative to you, but they don't mean much to me.

And leperhkaun, thanks for the tip.

What about orks? Orks are an assault-oriented army too. And as I recally, they tend to come in large groups of lightly armored individual combatants. Wouldn't flamers be effective against them too?

[Dervag]

I'd just like to remind everybody that I haven't ever played the game itself, and I've only known any significant amount of information about it in the past month or two.

Abbreviations like "LC" and "heavy stealers" may be perfectly informative to you, but they don't mean much to me.

And leperhkaun, thanks for the tip.

What about orks? Orks are an assault-oriented army too. And as I recally, they tend to come in large groups of lightly armored individual combatants. Wouldn't flamers be effective against them too?

[LBO]

"go heavy stealers and lictors" = invest in lots of Genestealers and Lictors, infiltrating assault troops that will f your s up if they get close enough (which they will).

[Zorg]

Also with the Chimera thingy, only one guy can shoot from the top hatch, so a heavy weapon platoon would be wasted, and a squad would be fairly heavily crippled (even if they're also firing the mounted lasguns), as to really be close enough to have the lasguns effective they bad guys will be targetting that nice soft AV10 side and rear.

As marines only two can shoot from a rhino, so it'd be a pretty dubious advantage given a rhino isn't that tough.

Alot of army composition comes down to who you're expecting to play, and how you want to play. Against Tyranids you could either go a horde of guys and maximum firepower when they get near, or a number of tanks and artillery and hope to blast them off the board before they have thier first turn.

What I'd suggest is build an HQ platoon, an infantry platoon and an armoured fist squad. With a add ons and some support that'd come close to 500 pts - enough for a small game and it'd allow you to get the feel for the army without too much outlay - two boxes of Cadians and a Chimera should swing it, with some judicious 'counts as' for special and heavy weapons.

[Dervag]

Fairly important EditI have the core rule book, but no codices. There's a new edition coming out soon, as I recall. Do you think it would make sense to buy a codex before the new edition comes out? I'm thinking I should wait.


Also with the Chimera thingy, only one guy can shoot from the top hatch, so a heavy weapon platoon would be wasted, and a squad would be fairly heavily crippled (even if they're also firing the mounted lasguns), as to really be close enough to have the lasguns effective they bad guys will be targetting that nice soft AV10 side and rear.I thought they could shoot from the firing slits. Or does the Chimera not have firing slits and I'm wrong?


As marines only two can shoot from a rhino, so it'd be a pretty dubious advantage given a rhino isn't that tough.OK. Didn't know that detail about the Rhino.

The general gist I'm getting is that the armor on WH40k vehicles isn't heavy enough that infantry inside them are protected much better than they would be in the open, because the armored vehicles draw so much AT fire that they don't have a much better life expectancy.

Is this the case?


What I'd suggest is build an HQ platoon, an infantry platoon and an armoured fist squad. With a add ons and some support that'd come close to 500 pts - enough for a small game and it'd allow you to get the feel for the army without too much outlay - two boxes of Cadians and a Chimera should swing it, with some judicious 'counts as' for special and heavy weapons.That's about what I was planning to do. Thank you.

[Zorg]

Fairly important EditI have the core rule book, but no codices. There's a new edition coming out soon, as I recall. Do you think it would make sense to buy a codex before the new edition comes out? I'm thinking I should wait.

According to various rumours IG are due for a new codex towards the end of the year, but I'm pretty sure nothing's been announced yet. If you can see if you can pick up a second hand copy, but codexes aren't that much (as far as GW goes) and it'll let you get an idea of how the guard work and all the options and such.


I thought they could shoot from the firing slits. Or does the Chimera not have firing slits and I'm wrong?

From the codex: The Chimera is fitted with six hull lasguns which can only be used by the passengers. Additionally, one model may fire a weapon from the top hatch but this will make the Chimera count as an Open-topped vehicle for the purpose of resolving shooting attacks in the next enemy turn.


The general gist I'm getting is that the armor on WH40k vehicles isn't heavy enough that infantry inside them are protected much better than they would be in the open, because the armored vehicles draw so much AT fire that they don't have a much better life expectancy.

Is this the case?

Not necessarily. A rhino has a front armour of 11. A lascannon will penetrate on a 3+, a krak missile on a 4+ and a heavy bolter cannot penetrate (it can glance on a 6 though). The biggest effect a penetrating hit has on a transport is that all the passengers must bail out, and can take casualties as a result. This will also slow down an enemy advance as the passengers may be pinned or at least will be walking and proably fairly in the open. However glancing hits don't do this.

If I run my rhinos forward at your gunline then pop smoke all hits on your next turn will be glancing, so even if the vehicle is imobilised as a result of a hit the troops inside won't have to bail out and risk being killed jumping out of the speeding APC (there is still the risk they'll die if you blow the vehicle up however).

And if I fit extra armour to the rhinos I can ignore crew stunned results so there's a quite small chance of actually stopping the rhino dropping the troops closer in one turn than they would have got in two or three on foot. Whether it's worth the risk depends on the tactical situation at the time of course and how many vehicles there are to soak up enemy AT - one rhino alone will die, but four or five will probably see most make it (but don't quote me on that at a game).

For guard specifically I'd say that as playing a slow advance or defensive game is the normal tactic, that Chimeras work better as support alongside squads or as flanking units. An armoured fist squad can quickly pile into their transport to nab objectives or reach a strongpoint until foosloggers can bring up the rear. And for 8 points extra armour and smokelaunchers are a great deal for vehicle survivability and mobility.

Even if a tank looses all it's guns, if it is still mobile it may count as a scoring unit (dedecated transports don't), or at least can be used to block enemy line of sight to your infantry sitting on objectives or out in the open. One use I've seen is to put two Chimeras in a line in front of the central objective in a 'king of the hill' type mission, so even when destroyed they formed a barricade for the platoon holding the objective with their wrecks.

Another general gameplay note is that when you only have 1500pts of guys, your tactical choices in a 1500pt game will be pretty similar no matter your opponent. Once you get more points you can create different lists for different foes and by the same token your foe will be less sure of what he'll be up against.

But that said you may put some guard together, paint them up and decide they're not for you after all.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I heard it's possible to take Tau-aligned Imperial Guards, the Gue'vesa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gue%27vesa). But are they only available as auxiliairies for a Tau army, or you can create whole regiment of them?

I'm just trying to think about a Leman Russ tank, or a Baneblade.. or a Basilik armed with Tau technology..

[Bryn]

You can flavour an Imperial Guard army any way you like. If you want them to be pheromone thralls of deluded fanatics (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat) (:tongue:), they can. If there are too many Marines where you live and everyone else has to play against them, they can easily become Chaos guard. There are some alternative army lists for this purpose, such as Lost and the Damned and Forge World's renegade list.

In that way, the Gue'vesa are possible, but you would get no special bonuses to being thralls to cows in space (apologies to any Tau players). In any case, I'm not sure what you would get from putting tau technology on Imperial tanks. In terms of weapons, in Apocalypse at least, the Imperium equals the Tau in firepower, but the Tau have the advantage of flying platforms for their firepower. By putting heavy railguns etc. on a Baneblade, you'd just have a Shadowsword, Stormsword or Stormblade, and you'd lose the advantage you gained from flying vehicles.

The Basilisk, especially, would have nothing to gain. It has a longer range and a comparable strength to Tau railguns. The railgun may perhaps be better than a Battle Cannon, on the other hand.

The point is moot, anyway. The closest thing to Tau Guard the game supports is the Carapace Armour or Grenadiers doctrine, and really then you're just getting Tau with worse guns.

Also, another :tongue:, just in case this comes across as agressive :smallwink:

[SolkaTruesilver]

You can flavour an Imperial Guard army any way you like. If you want them to be pheromone thralls of deluded fanatics (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat) (:tongue:), they can. If there are too many Marines where you live and everyone else has to play against them, they can easily become Chaos guard. There are some alternative army lists for this purpose, such as Lost and the Damned and Forge World's renegade list.

In that way, the Gue'vesa are possible, but you would get no special bonuses to being thralls to cows in space (apologies to any Tau players). In any case, I'm not sure what you would get from putting tau technology on Imperial tanks. In terms of weapons, in Apocalypse at least, the Imperium equals the Tau in firepower, but the Tau have the advantage of flying platforms for their firepower. By putting heavy railguns etc. on a Baneblade, you'd just have a Shadowsword, Stormsword or Stormblade, and you'd lose the advantage you gained from flying vehicles.

The Basilisk, especially, would have nothing to gain. It has a longer range and a comparable strength to Tau railguns. The railgun may perhaps be better than a Battle Cannon, on the other hand.

The point is moot, anyway. The closest thing to Tau Guard the game supports is the Carapace Armour or Grenadiers doctrine, and really then you're just getting Tau with worse guns.

Also, another :tongue:, just in case this comes across as agressive :smallwink:


Don't worry. It's just that now, I think your death would be for the Greater Good..

Thing is, the Gue'vesa have a penalty to HtH combat when they fight loyalist imperial troop (actually, the Imperial troop gain a bonus) because they are considered traitor. I think that would apply to Imperial Guard auxiliairy within a Tau army. I would live with that. But if I make a whole IG-Gv regiment, do I get that malus?

And if I do, do I get something to compensate? A IG Auxiliary in a Tau army might be usefull in some circumstance (I'd guess flexibility is a quality in it's own), but a merely Tau-flavored IG regiment, what would I get out of it?

[Lorn]

The IG. The IG are merely pathetic at melee, the Tau on the other hand couldn't melee their way out of a munitorium issue cardboard box.
... clearly, you've never realised exactly how nasty a single Conscript platoon can be.

50 guys. 4 points each. That's 200 points. Add in your command squad fairly nearby, so they can take the leadership. Add in the charge (better to charge and bog the enemy down in close combat for many turns than rapidfire, miss, and get charged) and you're looking at some 100 attacks. Granted, WS2 and S3. Low Initiative.

But one hundred attacks.

If they all get in that is, and survive a bit.

Even if you don't win - which you won't - you'll have 50 guys stopping, say, a Grey Knight killing machine rampaging through your lines; I've used this tactic (throw 'scripts at them) and taken out four GK Terminators and four normal GKs. All that was left was the Grandmaster on two wounds and a Justicar. They'd have taken out maybe four guys a turn, I had ninteen or so left. Though to be fair, it was good rolling on my part...

Seeing as I only lost 40 'scripts (not a full platoon, model constraints) and a junior officer's squad, I was fairly pleased with myself. Of course, a single Sister then heavy bolter'd my one remaining officer keeping them there and they ran, being cut down by the justicar, which along with the Grandmaster exploded my basilisk and gunned down my two remaining guys... but yeah.

Guard are actually really, really nice in CC if you can mob OK.



Anyway - I'm going to back up what everyone else said; couple of boxes of Cadians and a Chimera will (with a bit of messing around) get you a squad of 10 men and Chimera for an Armoured Fist, a five man command squad, and a 25 man platoon. Not the best army by any means, but a good starting point.

If you go for heavy weapons (which you really should unless you plan on shouting LEEEEEEERRRRRRRRROOOOOOOYYYYYY JEEEEEENNNNNNNNKKKKKKKIIIIINNNNNNSSSSSS every game and taking all sorts of complicated doctrines - inadvisable for a newbie and often fairly pricy in both points AND money) keep them to individual squads. Quoted from TSOALR - "Welcome to the world of ablative shielding." Heavy weapon squads are too big a target.

Having said that, if you have the points spare, it may be worth considering a mortar squad in your command platoon - chuck it behind rocks or something, and you can rain death down on anything within about 48 inches. Not much death, but some death, not nice death for an infantry army (such as, say, Guard.)

As far as tanks go... welll, a Leman Russ is dependable and versatile. You've got a really big gun on top to take out entire squads sometimes, you've got different weaponry for taking out other things if it comes to it. May as well go for those heavy bolter sponsons - cheap enough not to matter, useful enough to make a difference if you move.
Basilisks are fun too. Place them right, and they can literally shoot the entire board. Remember, they have a minimum range for firing indirectly.

Ph, and before I forget - look into Hardened Veterans. They look just like normal Guardsmen until they reveal about three plasmaguns, a plasma pistol and a lascannon 12 inches away from that expensive Terminator squad. Or meltaguns, if you like being safe.

[Bryn]

And if I do, do I get something to compensate? A IG Auxiliary in a Tau army might be usefull in some circumstance (I'd guess flexibility is a quality in it's own), but a merely Tau-flavored IG regiment, what would I get out of it?

The inherent disadvantages and advantages of the Imperial Guard. Lots and lots of troops, for one thing, something that would be missing in Tau armies. Powerful indirect fire tanks and the firey might of the Hellhound is another. Your individual troops would be less capable, but numbers would make up for it.

You would lose out on the mobility of the Tau, as Chimeras are less mobile than Devilfish - do note that if you have lots of money, IG can actually be more mobile than the Tau, thanks to the Arvus Lighter being a transport option that's a flyer - meaning you can go anywhere on the board >36" away in addition to being able to act as a skimmer.

Basically, though, there's no special advantage to giving your Guard Tau fluff. If your army had multiple detachments of both Tau and Guard, you might be able to cover some gaps in each army, but since both are powerful at shooting but weak in close combat, it wouldn't give you a huge amount.

As a Tau player getting an extra detachment of Guard, you would get access to the full range of tanks, which includes tanks specialised for almost every need thanks to Forge World, but the Tau are plenty versatile enough without Guard support. As a Guard player getting a detachment of Tau you would have units that are more mobile powerful than the standard troops, which could be used for removing special targets, infitrating, and moving with heavy weapons; this could also be achieved, however, by taking a unit of Stormtroopers in a Valkyrie.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The inherent disadvantages and advantages of the Imperial Guard. Lots and lots of troops, for one thing, something that would be missing in Tau armies. Powerful indirect fire tanks and the firey might of the Hellhound is another. Your individual troops would be less capable, but numbers would make up for it.

What I meant is, if you pit a GvG Regiment Vs a IG Regiment, what would the GvG have different?

I would guess we could allow the GvG access to Tau weaponry (about as much as the regular GvG auxiliairies), and Tau auxiliairies. I heard the pulse weapons can be quite devastating at long range, as opposed to lasguns. (S5 vs S3)

On the other hand, the GvG would loose the capacity to use non-Tau auxiliairies. Imperial Units still get the bonus when fighting HtH against all Gv Guard regiment.

Does that seem fair?

[Zorg]

Does that seem fair?

No. Tau Aux's have higher strength and range guns while the IG get +1 attack in HTH? Wounding on a 2+ instead of a 4+ is a big difference as is an extra 6" range when both armies are essentially 'shooty'.

Not a fair trade unless the IG is playing a roughrider and ogryn only army with infiltration...

[Bryn]

I assume he means that they'll work like the auxillaries' pulse rifles, where the IG can replace two of their lasguns with pulse rifles - basically like, say, plasma guns, only less strength, worse AP, and not Getting Hot... which means they aren't really like plasma guns at all (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Dissimile).

Replacing all the IG guns with pulse rifles would definitely be overpowered without a points gain, in which case you might as well just be playing Tau. :smallamused:

[SolkaTruesilver]

I assume he means that they'll work like the auxillaries' pulse rifles, where the IG can replace two of their lasguns with pulse rifles - basically like, say, plasma guns, only less strength, worse AP, and not Getting Hot... which means they aren't really like plasma guns at all (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Dissimile).

Replacing all the IG guns with pulse rifles would definitely be overpowered without a points gain, in which case you might as well just be playing Tau. :smallamused:

Exactly! nonon, I didn't meant replacing all the lasguns with plasma weapons (loool, no!!), but rather allowing up to 2 of every squad to have access to a pulse gun or a pulse carabine (close-range pinning!!)

[Murongo]

I like using indoctrinated IG with my grey knights. Especially 'cause you don't have to do the 1-troop-choice-per-armored-fist thing so you can just take 3 chimeras with troops and use them as a shield for your GK as they march up to melee. Usually when the Chimera gets destroyed I run for the nearest cover with my little armored fist dudes, as cover works for everyone, even people with flak jackets, and they spray the enemy.

Basically what I'm saying is I know nothing about IG (I do have the codex, though) but I do know to stick to cover if you can.

[Voyager_I]

A word on Armored Companies (Imperial Guard armies consisting entirely of tanks);

They tend to be fairly binary in their performance. An opponent with a general army won't have enough Anti-Tank weapons, and will probably get steamrolled as his Heavy Bolters splatter off your armor. Someone who, for some reason, does have sufficient Anti-Tank weapons will probably blow you to scrap in short order.

Also, never ever ever field an Armored Company against Necrons. Their basic infantry always scores a Glancing Hit on a 6, no matter how heavily you are armored. They might take a while to outright kill everything you have, but you'll be lucky to get a shot off after their first turn.

[Swordguy]

A word on Armored Companies (Imperial Guard armies consisting entirely of tanks);

They tend to be fairly binary in their performance. An opponent with a general army won't have enough Anti-Tank weapons, and will probably get steamrolled as his Heavy Bolters splatter off your armor. Someone who, for some reason, does have sufficient Anti-Tank weapons will probably blow you to scrap in short order.

Also, never ever ever field an Armored Company against Necrons. Their basic infantry always scores a Glancing Hit on a 6, no matter how heavily you are armored. They might take a while to outright kill everything you have, but you'll be lucky to get a shot off after their first turn.

THIS is why I said what i said regarding Necrons.

Tell me, Voyager I...do they still have those S5 24" range Gauss arcs on the side of the Monolith that basically wipe out everything T3 or lower within range when the dammed thing deepstrikes into the middle of your army?

(Also, I just noticed your sig. And lo, it amuses me.)

[Voyager_I]

I haven't really looked at the game in long while, but to the extent of my knowledge they still do. Of course, my knowledge extends little past the 4th Ed Space Marines Codex...

[LBO]

They do indeed.

Also, in 5th edition, glancing hits will no longer be able to outright destroy (non open-topped) vehicles, so that might make the Necrons slightly less annoying to Armoured Companies...